Why would anyone go into primary care nowadays?

[RJGOP]

I must be missing something. How does that make her evil? She did her job. I don't like Hillary but there's nothing evil here.

It's not evil, per se, but what she did (granted the evidence) was immoral and disgusting. Evil is a strong word though.

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[el_duderino]

Yeah, I mean, Nothing wrong with laughing on tape when discussing the case of a child rapist whom she made clear she knew was guilty.

Eh. You have to detach yourself emotionally for that kind of job. I wouldn't judge her for that any more than I'd judge a surgeon who can occasionally laugh about a patient he lost.

 

[Mad Jack]

Annnnnd we're off the rails again. Go on usenet or the chans or reddit anywhere else where libertarians tend to congregate and you'll find that there are plenty of unsuccessful basement-dwelling weirdos. I've never met a libertarian in meatspace that wasn't a nutty conspiracy theorist that had trouble getting a girlfriend. And I've straight up never met a female one, ever.

Anyway, there won't be a massive libertopia springing from the 2020 elections or beyond for various reasons, so we can neglect fringe politically unpalatable views in regard to the primary care market for the indefinite future.

 

[tdram]

Eh. You have to detach yourself emotionally for that kind of job. I wouldn't judge her for that any more than I'd judge a surgeon who can occasionally laugh about a patient he lost.

It's a little different. She did this for an interview for the public, not amongst other lawyers. In addition, she was gloating about how the other side lost evidence and it helped her win. I've never seen a surgeon come out on TV and laugh about losing a patient.

I think in a case like this, at least to the public, you take your win and keep it to yourself. That's the proper thing to do, unless you really have no sense of morality.

 

[Mad Jack]

Benghazi has everything to do with political showmanship and party politics and nothing to do with primary care. Take it to the Lounge, please.

 

[el_duderino]

It makes her kind of a jerk, but not evil.

 

[tdram]

It makes her kind of a jerk, but not evil.

Fair enough, but the Benghazi thing is a whole different story. That really does make her a terrible person.

 

[Frazier]

Enter thread about primary care. See the topic is Benghazi.

 

[Jalby]

bump

 

[DermViser]

bump

 

[deleted480308]

Annnnnd we're off the rails again. Go on usenet or the chans or reddit anywhere else where libertarians tend to congregate and you'll find that there are plenty of unsuccessful basement-dwelling weirdos. I've never met a libertarian in meatspace that wasn't a nutty conspiracy theorist that had trouble getting a girlfriend. And I've straight up never met a female one, ever.

Anyway, there won't be a massive libertopia springing from the 2020 elections or beyond for various reasons, so we can neglect fringe politically unpalatable views in regard to the primary care market for the indefinite future.

https://www.facebook.com/LibertarianGirlFreedom

https://www.facebook.com/JulieBorowski

 

[ketosisevangelist]

To help people. Like you said on your personal statement.

 

[tdram]

To help people. Like you said on your personal statement.

If you want to help people why not become a volunteer firefighter?

 

[DermViser]

To help people. Like you said on your personal statement.

 

[tdram]

Annnnnd we're off the rails again. Go on usenet or the chans or reddit anywhere else where libertarians tend to congregate and you'll find that there are plenty of unsuccessful basement-dwelling weirdos. I've never met a libertarian in meatspace that wasn't a nutty conspiracy theorist that had trouble getting a girlfriend. And I've straight up never met a female one, ever.

Anyway, there won't be a massive libertopia springing from the 2020 elections or beyond for various reasons, so we can neglect fringe politically unpalatable views in regard to the primary care market for the indefinite future.

All right bro, we get it, you hate libertarians.

If you're looking for unsuccessful basement-dwellers, I think you'd be more likely to find them on the liberal side picking up free handouts from the govt.

 

[ketosisevangelist]

The only reason to get into primary care is if you are a human troll termed Nurse Practitioner.

 

[sinombre]

The only reason to get into primary care is if you are a human troll termed Nurse Practitioner.

Or, you know, you enjoy primary care.

 

[DermViser]

Or, you know, you enjoy primary care.

What's not to love? Onerous documentation requirements (compared to specialists), 15 min. visits for people with >5 medical problems and the liability with that, people saying that NPs are equivalent if not better than PCPs, etc.

 

[syma]

Wanted to pop in to let you guys know that very soon the NHS will start paying for homeopathy services too! What a great use of taxpayer money that is!

"Greg Clark MP, whose full title is Minister of State for Universities, Science and Cities, was among 206 MPs in 2007 who signed an early-day motion that "welcomes the positive contribution made to the health of the nation by the NHS homeopathic hospitals"

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jonstone/david-camerons-appoints-homeopathy-supporter-as-science-mini

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/15/greg-clark-homeopathy_n_5587829.html

The NHS doesn't decide what money is spent on.

I also don't want to work under a universal health plan. I want to be able to negotiate my fee and turn down any companies that don't pay me well enough. Unfortunately with the NHS, it's a "take it or leave it" situation. The universal health plan has no competitors, so no one can offer a better payment.

The UK is two tier, so you can be private if you want to be.

The assertion that believers of a universal health care provider are "libtards" is just ridiculous. The NHS is not perfect, but living in this country I wouldn't trade it for anything else. There are obviously negatives, but I have the chose to piss off and go private.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Annnnnd we're off the rails again. Go on usenet or the chans or reddit anywhere else where libertarians tend to congregate and you'll find that there are plenty of unsuccessful basement-dwelling weirdos. I've never met a libertarian in meatspace that wasn't a nutty conspiracy theorist that had trouble getting a girlfriend. And I've straight up never met a female one, ever.

Anyway, there won't be a massive libertopia springing from the 2020 elections or beyond for various reasons, so we can neglect fringe politically unpalatable views in regard to the primary care market for the indefinite future.

Oh come on man, you say that like having a girlfriend is a measure of your worth as an individual.

 

[sinombre]

What's not to love? Onerous documentation requirements (compared to specialists), 15 min. visits for people with >5 medical problems and the liability with that, people saying that NPs are equivalent if not better than PCPs, etc.

I know, I don't understand it either. But some people really do enjoy it.

 

[Arkangeloid]

To help people. Like you said on your personal statement.

Actually, I don't think I ever said that on my personal statement.

I think what I was doing was "metagaming": I knew all the peeps would be talking ish about "helping people," so I consciously decided not to.

 

[ketosisevangelist]

I am very concerned about a premed's opinion of me.

Check out the SDN article on the changes to the new mcat!

 

[Lawgiver]

Reads like Sean hannity forums here, I thought this place was about medicine.

 

[PL198]

Reads like Sean hannity forums here, I thought this place was about medicine.

Yes, who knew that a high earning profession would tend to be conservative(actually conservative, not the stupid republican version) and the people pursuing that profession would have a similar view point?

 

[Lawgiver]

My point was thread was interesting to read until all this derailment.

 

[tdram]

My point was thread was interesting to read until all this derailment.

I dunno, I enjoyed the derailment a lot more than the original question which was a simple answer - because some people like it.

 

[Silent Cool]

the oregon law that doctors weren't allowed to be paid more than NPs was the nail in the coffin for me

So, that actually went through?

 

[tdram]

So, that actually went through?

Yes it did

 

[Silent Cool]

Yes it did

Wow. So NPs are paid the same as PC docs in Oregon?

 

[tdram]

Wow. So NPs are paid the same as PC docs in Oregon?

If they're independent and providing the same services, yes.

 

[Silent Cool]

If they're independent and providing the same services, yes.

Well that's the straw, I think. There really is no point in going to medical school school to end up in primary care. I read recently that several other states are working on the same thing. I believe it was CT, NY and another state.

Won't some hospitals also pay for nurses to get this training?

 

[Lawgiver]

A few things

1. Only applies to nps and pa as well, that own their own clinic
2. Bill specificaly prohibits insurers from decreasing Physician payments to comply with law
3. 2018 sunset date

 

[tdram]

2. Bill specificaly prohibits insurers from decreasing Physician payments to comply with law

So they'll be increasing the NP payments to equal the physician's. So much for all those extra years and debt. Physicians of OR are getting royally ripped off by the law.

 

[tdram]

This law makes me furious. How can the government decide what our training and experience is worth? That's up to the people who pay us to decide.

Edit: When the government pays us they can decide how much they're willing to pay for our services, but they have no business telling a private insurer what we're worth.

 

[Lawgiver]

Law does not say anything about how MDs should be paid. A little less hysteria would be good imo. Read the bill.

https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2013R1/Measures/Overview/HB2902

 

[Lawgiver]

And for some needed perspective, pls read:

https://www.thelundreport.org/conte...cks-ona’s-pay-equity-bill-nurse-practitioners

 

[PL198]

Law does not say anything about how MDs should be paid. A little less hysteria would be good imo. Read the bill.

https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2013R1/Measures/Overview/HB2902

It doesn't say anything directly, but I'm pretty sure the message is clear. If a 3 yr degree that can be obtained online with less clinical experience than an M3 has to be compensated as much as a physician, what does that say about the worth of physicians? It completely undermines the concept of medical school for primary care. Not to mention it jeopardizes people's lives. Why is residency needed if someone with even less training than a freshly graduated MD with no residency, both clinically and in the classroom, can practice and receive the same amount of compensation? These are the questions you should worry about, not literal answers to the question.

 

[Lawgiver]

Using words like 'completely undermines' and 'jeopardizes lives', just feeds hysteria as there is no evidence to back these statements.

The deeper issue for some it would seems is the ability for nps to practice independently to begin with.

 

[DermViser]

It doesn't say anything directly, but I'm pretty sure the message is clear. If a 3 yr degree that can be obtained online with less clinical experience than an M3 has to be compensated as much as a physician, what does that say about the worth of physicians? It completely undermines the concept of medical school for primary care. Not to mention it jeopardizes people's lives. Why is residency needed if someone with even less training than a freshly graduated MD with no residency, both clinically and in the classroom, can practice and receive the same amount of compensation? These are the questions you should worry about, not literal answers to the question.

To think I used to think (not really) that the MCAT tested critical thinking skills. Apparently bils have to state things directly for med students to understand the consequences of them.

 

[tdram]

Law does not say anything about how MDs should be paid. A little less hysteria would be good imo. Read the bill.

https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2013R1/Measures/Overview/HB2902

The bill makes it pretty clear that Physicians and NP/PAs should be paid at the same rate, which is something I believe the government has no business getting involved in.

 

[Kangal]

.

 

[PL198]

Using words like 'completely undermines' and 'jeopardizes lives', just feeds hysteria as there is no evidence to back these statements.

The deeper issue for some it would seems is the ability for nps to practice independently to begin with.

Ok, so someone would go to like 2-3x the training when we include clinical hours to make the same amount of money? If this were nationwide, there would truly be no point in going into primary care as a physician. Stop avoiding the points and trying to nitpick reasons to ignore them. NPs can practice independently, but they aren't even close to a physician and shouldn't be compensated as such.

 

[PL198]

To think I used to think (not really) that the MCAT tested critical thinking skills. Apparently bils have to state things directly for med students to understand the consequences of them.

I feel like standardized testing eliminates critical thinking, or certainly doesn't emphasize it. All the people I know who got 40+ MCATs and 2400 SATs aren't anything near what I would call critical thinkers. N=1

 

[el_duderino]

The thing I get hung up on is "same services." It's not the same service.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Have you been following this thread?

I explained that I am going into primary care because it is what I wanted to do, and then I made a glib comment about how if I cared more about money, I would pick something else. I followed that up with an admission that yes, I understand that people who engage in the profession that I used as an example might have some qualities that I lack. The result was still gaslighting and other personal attacks, rounded out by bringing up my interest in DO as evidence of my obvious low status. I've been ragged on for my answer in a thread about why people choose primary care, presumably by MD hopefuls.

Which part of that had you missed?

I really haven't been following this thread, but SDN is not representative of medical school or its students. If you want to do primary care as a MD, power to you: around half the people I talk to have an interest in PEDs/IM/FP, which is about in line with our actual stats for those. Admittedly some of them will do fellowships, but no one is going to "rag on you" for doing primary care in medical school.

In fact, I'll actually actively encourage you not to be my competition

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

100% of this country pays taxes. Income tax is only 1 form of taxation. If we look as a percentage and impact of purchasing power, the poor have the raw end of the deal.

As a physician, you still come ahead in regards to money. You ARE making real money during residency and fellowship. How much do you think you'd make with your bachelors straight out of college? 40-60k, which is the amount you make as a resident or fellow. Your only trade off is 4 years of debt and time in school which still you come ahead in. Lets extend this logic for a second. Are you going to say a bachelors is a waste of time because you're not doing as amazing as those High School graduates making "real" money for those 4 years? Basic economics should be part of the prerequisites from now on.

I'll assume you are familiar with basic economics then, so here are a couple of things you aren't including for consideration:

1. Opportunity cost
2. Interest
3. disposable income
4. hours

Also, many bachelor's degrees are a waste of time from a money standpoint. I would argue that money is not the sole (nor the most important) reason to get a bachelors, but there are many trades with a better ROI than say psych/english/education. The work may not always be pleasant, and for some job security is less than ideal. But that's true for many other fields as well

 

[tdram]

The thing I get hung up on is "same services." It's not the same service.

Absolutely. That is an absurd definition. Even though both people might be superficially providing the "same service", one person is far more educated, knowledgable and experienced. It makes perfect sense that you'd pay more for the person who is more skilled at the job, because customers value knowledge and experience. That's how it is in practically every other job.

 

[tdram]

I'll assume you are familiar with basic economics then, so here are a couple of things you aren't including for consideration:

1. Opportunity cost
2. Interest
3. disposable income
4. hours

Also, many bachelor's degrees are a waste of time from a money standpoint. I would argue that money is not the sole (nor the most important) reason to get a bachelors, but there are many trades with a better ROI than say psych/english/education. The work may not always be pleasant, and for some job security is less than ideal. But that's true for many other fields as well

I personally don't even think a bachelor's degree is neccessary to go to medical school. Many other countries have students go directly to medicine after high school. Those are longer programs, but I don't think any of them is 8 years long. If you want a bachelors, sure, but why force someone to spend time and money they don't have to?

 

[PL198]

I'll assume you are familiar with basic economics then, so here are a couple of things you aren't including for consideration:

1. Opportunity cost
2. Interest
3. disposable income
4. hours

Also, many bachelor's degrees are a waste of time from a money standpoint. I would argue that money is not the sole (nor the most important) reason to get a bachelors, but there are many trades with a better ROI than say psych/english/education. The work may not always be pleasant, and for some job security is less than ideal. But that's true for many other fields as well

By that person's logic, anyone that stops at an MD is a fool. I mean why even ever stop becoming educated? (remind you of anyone? liberal academia baby) If people can't do basic value analysis of degrees and pursuing them, I feel really bad for their ability to process information and make decisions. But hey, when you run your life by emotion, stay in school baby, cuz it's gotta be better! That must be how people like MD/MBA/JD/PHD are made.