why not just be called eye surgeons?

[Fantasy Sports]

I know this has been discussed a lot, but Ive recently had some friends that matched into opthalmology, or should i say, eye surgery , residencies and they were telling me about how so many people in their own family were shocked that they had decided to "leave medicine for optometry."

Honestly, this is getting out of hand. ENTs have started calling themselves Head & Neck Surgeons, and there is no reason opthalmologists shouldn't just call themselves Eye Surgeons.

And in terms of those opthalmologists that don't do surgery and just practice the medical aspect, they are still Eye Surgeons, in the same sense that many Head & Neck Surgeons also specialize in the medical practice of medicine rather than doing mainly surgery.

This seems like a very simple thing to do that would clear up a LOT of problems, and I think if enough of you guys start talking about this issue at your respective residency programs, we can resolve a lot of the confusion between optometrists and eye surgeons.

And thinking long term, what better way to make sure that only MD-trained eye surgeons can perform eye surgery than to lay a stake on your rightful name.

This is something very simple that can be done with suprisingly important ramifications in terms of privileges, and I hope that if this is viewed as a constructive idea by eye surgeons, that you will make the push for the switch. We are oftentimes too satiate in the medical field allowing others to perform duties that they are oftentimes not fully trained to do. And in this case, a simple name change clarifying the nature of eye surgeons will do wonders in delineating the already existing training differences between ODs and MDs.

I hope you eye surgeons consider this seriously, its a little effort, but the benefits are enormous for not only your field, but all of medicine.

---

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[Andrew_Doan]

I think this is a great idea that has been brought up by several individuals in this forum. I will have a resident attending the AAO Mid-Year Forum to discuss this with the academy!

 

[Visioncam]

or start using the term "Eye Physician and Surgeon" more often to preempt OD from stealing the term.

In some states, OD are already cheating the public by calling themselves "Optometric Physician". But then I suppose some carpet cleaners call themselves "rug doctor". If OD persist in calling themselves "optometric physician, they should try (especially in Oklahoma) to start doing routine medical care, such as colds and flu. They could make a political argument that they are helping the public by increasing access to care.

Rather than complain, MD's should branch out, too. Legal medicine may be a good idea if an alternate legal medicine bar could be established in one state first. Notary public, copying keys, and offering xerox copying may be easier to do. Some states ban MD's from doing dog cataracts, but some do not. Winning more dog privileges may be a worthy goal. After all, MD's could use the same line as OD, i.e. they are improving dogs' access to care.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Winning more dog privileges may be a worthy goal. After all, MD's could use the same line as OD, i.e. they are improving dogs' access to care.

This is an idea!

The vets make tons more per cataract surgery than MD's do. Plus, if the dog has a problem, it won't complain either!

 

[Andrew_Doan]

or start using the term "Eye Physician and Surgeon" more often to preempt OD from stealing the term.

We can start adopting this term now. Why wait?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Eye+Physician+&+Surgeon

This will be a test of the Google search engine. I am curious to see how long it will take the Google search engine to crawl this thread.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Actually, Eye Physician & Surgeon (EPS) sounds pretty good.

Maybe you should start by changing the name of this forum Dr. Doan?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Actually, Eye Physician & Surgeon (EPS) sounds pretty good.

Maybe you should start by changing the name of this forum Dr. Doan?

Working on it. I'm also working on changing it on EyeOrbit.org too.

http://www.eyeorbit.org/article.php?story=20050213132336797

 

[retinadoc]

I'm a retina specialist in New England. That sounds like a great idea. I can't tell you how many times that I have been called an Optometrist since I have been in practice. I would SO be willing to help. We should put out minds and energy together.

 

[JennyW]

I'm a retina specialist in New England. That sounds like a great idea. I can't tell you how many times that I have been called an Optometrist since I have been in practice. I would SO be willing to help. We should put out minds and energy together.

Yet another case of "small [edited by Andrew_Doan] syndrome" from a surgeon.

Though I'm an optometrist, I get referred to as an "optician" many times as well. Does it bother me? No. I'm sure there are many maxilofacial surgeons that get referred to as "dentists." If that's such a big issue for you, then you might need to see Dr. Phil because it would appear that you have some serious self-esteem issues there.

Jenny

 

[retinadoc]

I do not appreciate that reply at all.

I do not think that it is right that the average person on the street who develops a floater in his or her eye, for example, can go to the Optometrist and feel that they are getting the same level of care as when they come to see me. Likewise, there are many services (e.g. contact lens fittings) that an Optometrist can offer which I (and for that matter most Ophthalmologists) can not. Therefore, I feel that it is important for us as Ophthalmologists to educate the lay person as to the differences between the two professions. That is the point that we are trying to emphasize.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I'm a retina specialist in New England. That sounds like a great idea. I can't tell you how many times that I have been called an Optometrist since I have been in practice. I would SO be willing to help. We should put out minds and energy together.

I agree. Have you considered attending the AAO Mid-Year Forum? It's a great place to brain storm and set things into action.

BTW, look at www.eyeorbit.org, it now reads:

Welcome to eyeOrbit, the official Network for Ophthalmology, Eye Physicians & Surgeons

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Yet another case of "small [edited by Andrew_Doan] syndrome" from a surgeon.

Though I'm an optometrist, I get referred to as an "optician" many times as well. Does it bother me? No. I'm sure there are many maxilofacial surgeons that get referred to as "dentists." If that's such a big issue for you, then you might need to see Dr. Phil because it would appear that you have some serious self-esteem issues there.

Jenny

Yes, but the real problem is, are there opticians out there DELIBERATELY misleading patients into believing they are seeing an optometrist.

Because what DOES happen is some optometrists purposely make appearances to be ophthalmologists.

Might as well nip the confusion, purposeful or otherwise, at the bud by clarifying our roles in eye care.

 

[hans19]

Yes, but the real problem is, are there opticians out there DELIBERATELY misleading patients into believing they are seeing an optometrist.

Because what DOES happen is some optometrists purposely make appearances to be ophthalmologists.

Might as well nip the confusion, purposeful or otherwise, at the bud by clarifying our roles in eye care.

Great idea for you guys. I wonder why it wasn't thought of sooner.
Now if I can only find some way help the general public to distinguish a radiologist from a radiographer/x-ray tech, I'd be golden!

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Let it go man!!!! OD's are Physician's of the Eye....Eye Doctor=Physician of the Eye=Optometrist. OMD's are Surgeons of the Eye=Eye Surgeon=Opthalmologist.....what about this do you not understand? Maybe it is the fact that out in the real world (laypeople) the terms Physician and Doctor are interchangeable.....when I spend a total of 9 years of my life (have done the first 4 for the BS) + 4 years of Doctor of Optometry program + 1 year of residency = I will use the term I am LEGALLY allowed to use....(Optometric Physician, Eye Doctor- OD, Optometrist, Doctor of Optometry). No Optometrists is claiming they are a Medical Physician which implies broad scope rather they are claiming to be a Physician of narrower scope..Just let it go......In the future---everyone is going to be called Physician so maybe you should create a new term. Go home drink a glass of wine, enjoy a sunset, watch some football, make love to your girlfriend, but please just "let it go!"

"Can't we all just get along?"

or start using the term "Eye Physician and Surgeon" more often to preempt OD from stealing the term.

In some states, OD are already cheating the public by calling themselves "Optometric Physician". But then I suppose some carpet cleaners call themselves "rug doctor". If OD persist in calling themselves "optometric physician, they should try (especially in Oklahoma) to start doing routine medical care, such as colds and flu. They could make a political argument that they are helping the public by increasing access to care.

Rather than complain, MD's should branch out, too. Legal medicine may be a good idea if an alternate legal medicine bar could be established in one state first. Notary public, copying keys, and offering xerox copying may be easier to do. Some states ban MD's from doing dog cataracts, but some do not. Winning more dog privileges may be a worthy goal. After all, MD's could use the same line as OD, i.e. they are improving dogs' access to care.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Let it go man!!!! OD's are Physician's of the Eye....Eye Doctor=Physician of the Eye=Optometrist. OMD's are Surgeons of the Eye=Eye Surgeon=Opthalmologist.....what about this do you not understand? Maybe it is the fact that out in the real world (laypeople) the terms Physician and Doctor are interchangeable.....when I spend a total of 9 years of my life (have done the first 4 for the BS) + 4 years of Doctor of Optometry program + 1 year of residency = I will use the term I am LEGALLY allowed to use....(Optometric Physician, Eye Doctor- OD, Optometrist, Doctor of Optometry). No Optometrists is claiming they are a Medical Physician which implies broad scope rather they are claiming to be a Physician of narrower scope..Just let it go......In the future---everyone is going to be called Physician so maybe you should create a new term. Go home drink a glass of wine, enjoy a sunset, watch some football, make love to your girlfriend, but please just "let it go!"

"Can't we all just get along?"

OK, first of all, the fact that you're counting your undergraduate years as part of your training says VOLUMES about how doctors and optometrists view "training".

Second, you're patently wrong in regards to optometrists claiming to be medical physicians. They are deliberately using the public's inability to differentiate between medical doctors and optometrists to try and gain surgery privileges when they have not had surgical training.

Third, there is no way in the future that everyone is going to be called a "physician"? I'm not even sure you understand what you're trying to say with that point.

And if you want to let it go, how about letting go of performing surgeries that you are untrained to perform, or how about stopping when some ODs use the title "doctor" with nary a mention of the word "optometrist" anyhere.

But seriously, counting 4 years of undergraduate training towards your optometry degree says more about how doctors and optometrists view training than I ever could. And that's coming from someone with 19 years of medical training (5 years elementary school + 3 years middle school + 4 years high school + 4 years undergraduate + 3 years medical school)!

 

[futuredoctorOD]

OK, first of all, the fact that you're counting your undergraduate years as part of your training says VOLUMES about how doctors and optometrists view "training".

Second, you're patently wrong in regards to optometrists claiming to be medical physicians. They are deliberately using the public's inability to differentiate between medical doctors and optometrists to try and gain surgery privileges when they have not had surgical training.

Third, there is no way in the future that everyone is going to be called a "physician"? I'm not even sure you understand what you're trying to say with that point.

And if you want to let it go, how about letting go of performing surgeries that you are untrained to perform, or how about stopping when some ODs use the title "doctor" with nary a mention of the word "optometrist" anyhere.

But seriously, counting 4 years of undergraduate training towards your optometry degree says more about how doctors and optometrists view training than I ever could. And that's coming from someone with 19 years of medical training (5 years elementary school + 3 years middle school + 4 years high school + 4 years undergraduate + 3 years medical school)!

Why don't you also include the 9 month residency you did in your mother's womb so you can have 19.75 years. Your argument is flawed and very pathetic. I feel that Pre-Med is part of your preparation ( and by the way Medical School is 4 years----did you go to a 3 year school online or something?) Well anyway Dr. or whatever you may be....I would say that your training would be 4yrs (BS) + 4yrs (real medical school) + 4yrs (general opthalmology) = 12 years versus 9 for myself becoming a primary care eye doctor (OD). And yes I do feel that everyone should have their initials somewhere. Like Dr. John Doe OD or Dr John Doe DO
Eye Doctor Eye Surgeon
I agree with you on that point.
What I don't agree with you on is your arrogant attitude towards OD's. You act like a child in your demeaning comments. I believe in giving every doctor (from Chiropractor to Neurosurgeon) equal respect.....You don't.. 99% of OD's have no interest in doing surgery BUT some proceedures like removing an eyelash is considered to be surgery! I have no interest in doing surgery---none---this is why I am going to Optometry school to be a primary care eye doctor. My comment about everyone in the future being called "physician" was in jest....Can you not understand that? OK...If it makes you feel any better (maybe you can understand this ) Doctor of Optometry 4 yrs + 1 yr of Ocular Disease Residency = 5 yrs. Doctor of Osteopathy 4 yrs + 4 yrs of (General Opthalmology) = 8 yrs. Surgery should take longer than primary care. And by the way--I love your insulting comment, " But seriously, counting 4 years of undergraduate training towards your optometry degree says more about how doctors and optometrists view training than I ever could." Newsflash---OD stands for Doctor of Optometry! I really hope that your 19.75 years of training helps you recognize this..lol Optometrists are doctors--if you didn't already know, revelation for your mind, they are Eye Doctors.

"Can't we all just get along?"

 

[futuredoctorOD]

You are a practicing OD----I have 5 more years! How much is the "real world" attitudes of Opthalmologists you have dealt with analogous to some of the arrogant responses on this forum (not from all of the opthos just some) compare to the "real world" of practice..Because honestly to me it seems that those exclusionary and haughty comments I have seen on this forum are very unprofessional and have to involve insecurity.

Yet another case of "small [edited by Andrew_Doan] syndrome" from a surgeon.

Though I'm an optometrist, I get referred to as an "optician" many times as well. Does it bother me? No. I'm sure there are many maxilofacial surgeons that get referred to as "dentists." If that's such a big issue for you, then you might need to see Dr. Phil because it would appear that you have some serious self-esteem issues there.

Jenny

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Why don't you also include the 9 month residency you did in your mother's womb so you can have 19.75 years. Your argument is flawed and very pathetic. I feel that Pre-Med is part of your preparation ( and by the way Medical School is 4 years----did you go to a 3 year school online or something?) Well anyway Dr. or whatever you may be....I would say that your training would be 4yrs (BS) + 4yrs (real medical school) + 4yrs (general opthalmology) = 12 years versus 9 for myself becoming a primary care eye doctor (OD). And yes I do feel that everyone should have their initials somewhere. Like Dr. John Doe OD or Dr John Doe DO
Eye Doctor Eye Surgeon
I agree with you on that point.
What I don't agree with you on is your arrogant attitude towards OD's. You act like a child in your demeaning comments. I believe in giving every doctor (from Chiropractor to Neurosurgeon) equal respect.....You don't.. 99% of OD's have no interest in doing surgery BUT some proceedures like removing an eyelash is considered to be surgery! I have no interest in doing surgery---none---this is why I am going to Optometry school to be a primary care eye doctor. My comment about everyone in the future being called "physician" was in jest....Can you not understand that? OK...If it makes you feel any better (maybe you can understand this ) Doctor of Optometry 4 yrs + 1 yr of Ocular Disease Residency = 5 yrs. Doctor of Osteopathy 4 yrs + 4 yrs of (General Opthalmology) = 8 yrs. Surgery should take longer than primary care. And by the way--I love your insulting comment, " But seriously, counting 4 years of undergraduate training towards your optometry degree says more about how doctors and optometrists view training than I ever could." Newsflash---OD stands for Doctor of Optometry! I really hope that your 19.75 years of training helps you recognize this..lol Optometrists are doctors--if you didn't already know, revelation for your mind, they are Eye Doctors.

"Can't we all just get along?"

Actually Im a 3rd year in medical school. Way to use those critical thinking skills...

This has nothing to do with respect and everything with overstepping bounds. Lets take your example of chiropractors and neurosurgeons (lets say spine surgeons in particular for analogy). Sure you give them both respect. But what do you when the chiropractor starts calling himself a spinal physician or spinal surgeon, doing the work of an MD that he was not trained to do? And then he goes off and hurts patients thinking they were getting treated by a doctor. That's the analogy to what is going on in eye surgery. And no we are not talking about eyelash removals or basic procedures (dilations, particles in palpebra, etc). We're talking about optometrists who want to do laser surgery, so stop creating bogeymen in your posts.

And news flash, I could care less what you or I think about doctor of medicine versus doctor of optometry, but when ODs DELIBERATELY mislead patients into thinking they are MDs, that is where to draw the line.

So stop making excuses and stop setting up strawmen, your comments are very poorly argued and frankly it seems as if you are posted this drunk based on your writing style. There is no doubt that there is a place for ODs and MDs in eye care, but as long as ODs overstep their training privileges and risk patient's well-being, there is little to be said about the issue except that if you want to do surgery, you should have gone to med school. Just like if I had wanted to do optometry, I should have gone to OD school.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

We're talking about optometrists who want to do laser surgery, so stop creating bogeymen in your posts.

Fantasy Sports understands the issues well. It's not whether ODs should be called physicians. I have much respect for ODs as primary care eye doctors who can treat many eye diseases with medicines BUT NOT surgery (I am not including epilating, punctal plugs, massage, whatever you imply - I'm referring to cutting with a knife, laser, or altering with cold/heat). However, ODs are now going after more than just medical treatment. Laser surgery is only a step towards ocular scalpel surgery. Thus, it's not about our insecurity as medical doctors. It's about preserving the standard of care for our patients. Why must medical doctors go through extensive training, certification, and now competency verification (www.eyerounds.org/compindex.htm) to be surgeons and medical doctors while non-medical doctor groups increase their scope of practice through $$$, lawyers, and wooing the politicians???

FuturedoctorOD, until you learn more about the issues and what is going on with your leadership (look at Oklahoma), please stop flinging allegations that we have ego problems when in fact, our advocacy efforts are to protect the current standard of care for patients.

Read this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2289184#post2289184

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Numerous ophthalmology societies have adopted the term: Eye Physicians & Surgeons

http://www.aao.org/aao/news/release/20041005a.cfm

 

[JennyW]

You are a practicing OD----I have 5 more years! How much is the "real world" attitudes of Opthalmologists you have dealt with analogous to some of the arrogant responses on this forum (not from all of the opthos just some) compare to the "real world" of practice..Because honestly to me it seems that those exclusionary and haughty comments I have seen on this forum are very unprofessional and have to involve insecurity.

I spent a number of years working in the VA where I taught ophthalmology residents how to refract (correctly) and also how to fit contact lenses as well as some very basic low vision.

Without a doubt, the most arrogant group of doctors you will find (and this applies to all specialities but my experience was mostly with ophthalmology) is 1st and 2nd year residents.

They are followed closely by medical students.

This probably explains in large part the issues you refer to on these boards.

In practice, the only group that I have much problem with are "general" ophthalmologists who don't do much surgery. These people tend to be older and are used to viewing ODs as merely "spectacle dispensers."

ODs account for a significant number of referrals to OMD offices, so in practice you rarely encounter this type of arrogance. When you do, you simply don't refer patients to those people. You will find that there are many competent, professional surgeons out there that are easy to work with and these are the ones to whom you will send your patients.

Jenny

 

[JennyW]

OK, first of all, the fact that you're counting your undergraduate years as part of your training says VOLUMES about how doctors and optometrists view "training".

But seriously, counting 4 years of undergraduate training towards your optometry degree says more about how doctors and optometrists view training than I ever could. And that's coming from someone with 19 years of medical training (5 years elementary school + 3 years middle school + 4 years high school + 4 years undergraduate + 3 years medical school)!

Ohh puuuuuuulllleeeeeeeaaaaasssseee!!

OMDs are some of the WORST offenders with respect to this issue.

They loooove to talk about how they went to school for 12 years and how OD school is only 4 year long. Often times they will try to equate optometry school with tech school.

A simple internet search reveals:

A quote from retinamark ON THIS BOARD:

>>>Originally Posted by Retinamark
To the cowboy wanna-be surgeon optoms, we can ask the question:

"Would you want your grandmother to have surgery by someone who has done 4 years of training & can occasionally get it right, or someone who has done 10-15 years of training to prepare themselves for every possible scenario?"

Why should someone's grandma suffer just because some optoms lacking insight & morals want to earn more money without doing the proper training?



How about from UC Irvine??

>>>>What is the difference between an ophthalmologist, an optometrist and an optician? An ophthalmologist (MD ) is a licensed physician, with 12 years of post-high school training, having completed 4 years of medical school, at least 1 year of post-graduate internship in general medicine or surgery, and 3 years additional residency training in medicine and surgery of the eye. He/she is licensed to practice medicine, diagnose and treat all eye disease, prescribe and fit contact lenses and glasses and perform traditional and laser ocular surgery. Some ophthalmologists have spent an additional 1-2 years sub-specializing in a particular area such as retinal disease, corneal disease, glaucoma, muscle problems, neural disorders, tumors, inflammation, pathology or plastic surgery.

Or perhaps from a private doctor in Minnesota?

>>>>Q: What is the difference between an Ophthalmologist, Optometrist, and Optician?
A: An Ophthalmologist is a medical doctor whose specialty is the science that deals with the anatomy, functions, and diseases of the eye. An Optometrist is one who is skilled in the measurement and examination of the visual power of the eye.

How about from a doctor in California??

>>>>By selecting a Board Certified Ophthalmologist, you have just selected a physician with 14 years of higher education, and a minimum of 6 years of practice as a physician, with 5 of those years specializing in medical and surgical diseases of the eye. Board Certified Ophthalmologists have achieved the highest level of certification available, and they are the most qualified practitioners to trust with the health of your eyes. They are also qualified to prescribe glasses and contacts, although some choose not to do so.

Optometrists and Opticians are NOT physicians. They cannot perform surgery. Certain optometrists can use certain medications under very limited circumstances, after they have received training under an Ophthalmologist.


How about the Arkansas Ophthalmology Association?

>>>An optometrist (Doctor of Optometry or O.D.) is not a medical doctor, but is trained to diagnose and treat certain eye abnormalities, and prescribe, supply, and adjust eyeglasses and contact lenses. The optometric education consists of two to four years of college and four years in an optometric college. In Arkansas, qualified optometrists may prescribe and administer limited drugs to treat certain eye disorders.


Ummmm, last time I checked, no schools were admitting students after 2 years of undergraduate training. Over 91% of students are admitted with a bachelors degree and more than 98% have a bachelors degree when the graduated because some state schools allow a 3/4 type of program where they will admit students after their 3rd year and count some of the optometry courses towards their bachelors degree. Whoopie.

Jenny

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Again your only method is degredation....And actually I have published many papers and did very well in advanced English courses (A-, A, A-, A , B+) for your information. Anywho, I never championed the cause of OD's doing surgery with weekend seminar courses like you are implying. I have relatives who are surgeons and understand the difficulty in being as surgeon does not lie predominantly in technique rather it is the analysis and understanding of the situation and the decisions made in response to it. My brother is a surgeon so I have heard this "song and dance" from someone who IS a surgeon and NOT a medical student. Any Doctor (OD, MD, DO, DC) etc.. should be honest about thier credentialing---this point I am with you on 100%. I am 31 yrs old and have been through a lot and I can tell you with conviction that the one common denominator thru the myriad of arguments regarding "overstepping boundaries---risking patients" is just a smoke screen for the real reason behind these arguments---TURF. It is sad that the patient's well being is being used for political motivation rather then adhering to the real mantra of every doctor---first do no harm. I am not on here to quibble with you because I have more important matters to attend to like "getting drunk and writing posts" lol---just kidding..Sounds fun though. If you want we can compete in a writing competition picking a medical topic and the looser has to take out the winner for a round of drinks.

"Can't we all just get along?"

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Thank you for the response......

Currently I am shadowing 3 different OD's in different settings, commercial, private practice, and interdisciplinary...I am trying to get as much experience to build my resume and have 3 OD's write me reccomendation letters...That said I also want to get involved in Opthalmic research....Will this help me with my application? I read one of your earlier posts about admission into optometry school........

thanks

I spent a number of years working in the VA where I taught ophthalmology residents how to refract (correctly) and also how to fit contact lenses as well as some very basic low vision.

Without a doubt, the most arrogant group of doctors you will find (and this applies to all specialities but my experience was mostly with ophthalmology) is 1st and 2nd year residents.

They are followed closely by medical students.

This probably explains in large part the issues you refer to on these boards.

In practice, the only group that I have much problem with are "general" ophthalmologists who don't do much surgery. These people tend to be older and are used to viewing ODs as merely "spectacle dispensers."

ODs account for a significant number of referrals to OMD offices, so in practice you rarely encounter this type of arrogance. When you do, you simply don't refer patients to those people. You will find that there are many competent, professional surgeons out there that are easy to work with and these are the ones to whom you will send your patients.

Jenny

 

[vanelo]

Thank you for the response......

Currently I am shadowing 3 different OD's in different settings, commercial, private practice, and interdisciplinary...I am trying to get as much experience to build my resume and have 3 OD's write me reccomendation letters...That said I also want to get involved in Opthalmic research....Will this help me with my application? I read one of your earlier posts about admission into optometry school........

thanks

Both you and Jenny are in the wrong forum, this is for future ophthalmologists, not for ophthalmologists wanna-be's [edited by Andrew_Doan]

Go back to your forum and discuss all you want there. Leave real MD's alone please.

Thanks

 

[JennyW]

Both you and Jenny are in the wrong forum, this is for future ophthalmologists, not for ophthalmologists wanna-be's [edited by Andrew_Doan]

Go back to your forum and discuss all you want there. Leave real MD's alone please.

Thanks

*snore*

It's ok, Andrew. I saw his/her post before you edited it. Once again, we have another med student/resident who seems to be compensating for his/her low self esteem by denegrating others.

Please reference my other post about which groups of doctors tend to be the most arrogant. My theory is proved again.

Jenny

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I fail to see the value in that post directed at Jenny and FutureOD. This thread was started to discuss the idea that ophthalmologists use the title "Eye Surgeons" to differentiate themselves from optometrists who are calling themselves "optometric physicians" and/or "eye doctors". While the thread did change into the inevitable OD's doing surgery debate, the posts were at least semi-relevant to the discussion at hand. I don't think it is too much to ask to keep posts on topic. Now, while I'm on a roll, its also fairly out of line to call optometrists "technicians". Optometrists have prescription rights in every state which, at least to my mind, makes them a bit above technicians. If the other posters on this forum have respect for ODs (granted it varies from person to person, but there is at the least polite discourse), then you can at least be civil.

Now, to keep from being a hypocrit: I have a thought. Have there been or are there any planned studies that compare surgical outcomes between Oklahoma MDs and ODs for the procedures that both were allowed to do before the recent legislative? It would certainly take some effort to make sure the study is designed properly to minimize other factors, but it could be done. A similar study could be done concerning prescribed drugs. It would be nice to actually have some statistics to throw into these debates rather than conjecture and anedotes.

Merely my opinions, of course.

Edit: Dang it, y'all beat me to it

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Please reference my other post about which groups of doctors tend to be the most arrogant. My theory is proved again.

Of course, optometry evidence based medicine. One anecdote = irrefutable evidence.

Just like when I was a kid, and I had an eye infection my OD said would go away by itself (I too didnt know the difference between MD and OD, nor did my parents, when I was younger). Of course, after several days, it just got worse, and I ended up going to an MD who prescribed some topical drugs and prescription eyedrops and the infection went away in 2 days. Apparently by OD EBM standards, I have irrefutable evidence that optometrists fail to propertly manage medical eye problems.

Maybe if you guys weren't posting complete inaccuracies and trying to make this a thread about what to do for OD school (which seems like it belongs in the OD forum I might add), this thread would actually stay on topic. I mean honestly, its not enough that you guys are trying to be downright annoying by posting falsehoods on this thead, but taking it over to talk about what to do in OD school? Gimme a break, its like when someone butts into your conversation, starts making stuff up, and then starts complaining when you call them out on it.

Anyone sensing a trend here, ODs wanting to do surgery, ODs wanting to be called physicians, ODs posting propaganda in an MD forum, ODs taking over a thread about what MDs should do in regards to proper nomenclature by giving advice on optometry school?

 

[JennyW]

Of course, optometry evidence based medicine. One anecdote = irrefutable evidence.

Maybe if you guys weren't posting complete inaccuracies and trying to make this a thread about what to do for OD school (which seems like it belongs in the OD forum I might add), this thread would actually stay on topic. I mean honestly, its not enough that you guys are trying to be downright annoying by posting falsehoods on this thead, but taking it over to talk about what to do in OD school? Gimme a break, its like when someone butts into your conversation, starts making stuff up, and then starts complaining when you call them out on it.

Anyone sensing a trend here, ODs wanting to do surgery, ODs wanting to be called physicians, ODs posting propaganda in an MD forum, ODs taking over a thread about what MDs should do in regards to proper nomenclature by giving advice on optometry school?

If you had actually read any of my posts, you would understand where the moniker "optometric physician" comes from and why 99.99% of ODs who use it use it because they have to, not for some ego stroke.

If you had actually read my original post about which doctors tend to be the most arrogant, you would realize that I have trained over 60 ophthalmology residents in refraction, contact lens management and low vision as well as having worked with numerous residents in other fields during my tenure at the VA. So, your lame comment about "one anecdote = irrefutable evidence" is completely meaningless.

And what falsehoods do you feel are being posted?

And lets not get into lame anecdotes about missed diagnoses or incorrect treatment plans or I'll have to bring up the case I saw last year where a young woman presented to my office for a 2nd opinion on recurrent subconjunctival hemorages that her board certified ophthalmologist insisted was caused by "dry eye" but turned out to be a case of conjunctival lymphoma which the OMD kept noting as a pinguecula.

Jenny

 

[golgi]

I personally like the title "ocular surgeon" rather than ophthalmologist.

 

[JR]

99.99%? I don't think you can speak for everyone, Jenny. Well, almost everyone, there is this pesky 0.001%... Maybe most optometrists call themselves "optometric physician" because of a small (or not so small) inferiority complex?

If you had actually read any of my posts, you would understand where the moniker "optometric physician" comes from and why 99.99% of ODs who use it use it because they have to, not for some ego stroke.

If you had actually read my original post about which doctors tend to be the most arrogant, you would realize that I have trained over 60 ophthalmology residents in refraction, contact lens management and low vision as well as having worked with numerous residents in other fields during my tenure at the VA. So, your lame comment about "one anecdote = irrefutable evidence" is completely meaningless.

And what falsehoods do you feel are being posted?

Jenny

 

[JennyW]

99.99%? I don't think you can speak for everyone, Jenny. Well, almost everyone, there is this pesky 0.001%... Maybe most optometrists call themselves "optometric physician" because of a small (or not so small) inferiority complex?

How many times am I going to have to explain this???

Feel free to reread any of my posts on this issue to find out why that term is used, and why 99.99% of ODs who use it do so out of necessity.

Jenny

 

[golgi]

You know I never thought I would say this because I am a really tolerant person...but I wish we could ban the ODs from this forum just like we banned them from the AAO conference...

 

[vanelo]

Of course, optometry evidence based medicine. One anecdote = irrefutable evidence.

Just like when I was a kid, and I had an eye infection my OD said would go away by itself (I too didnt know the difference between MD and OD, nor did my parents, when I was younger). Of course, after several days, it just got worse, and I ended up going to an MD who prescribed some topical drugs and prescription eyedrops and the infection went away in 2 days. Apparently by OD EBM standards, I have irrefutable evidence that optometrists fail to propertly manage medical eye problems.

Maybe if you guys weren't posting complete inaccuracies and trying to make this a thread about what to do for OD school (which seems like it belongs in the OD forum I might add), this thread would actually stay on topic. I mean honestly, its not enough that you guys are trying to be downright annoying by posting falsehoods on this thead, but taking it over to talk about what to do in OD school? Gimme a break, its like when someone butts into your conversation, starts making stuff up, and then starts complaining when you call them out on it.

Anyone sensing a trend here, ODs wanting to do surgery, ODs wanting to be called physicians, ODs posting propaganda in an MD forum, ODs taking over a thread about what MDs should do in regards to proper nomenclature by giving advice on optometry school?

That is exactly the point. Well said

 

[vanelo]

You know I never thought I would say this because I am a really tolerant person...but I wish we could ban the ODs from this forum just like we banned them from the AAO conference...

LOL. Lets just ban them from Planet Earth !!!!!!!

P.S. Maybe I should start a poll on this.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

If you had actually read any of my posts, you would understand where the moniker "optometric physician" comes from and why 99.99% of ODs who use it use it because they have to, not for some ego stroke.

Actually, they could just as easily just use "optometrist", but obviously some ego issues are at play here

If you had actually read my original post about which doctors tend to be the most arrogant, you would realize that I have trained over 60 ophthalmology residents in refraction, contact lens management and low vision as well as having worked with numerous residents in other fields during my tenure at the VA. So, your lame comment about "one anecdote = irrefutable evidence" is completely meaningless.

Wow, talk about hypocrisy. Pot meet kettle. Do you realize how arrogant you sound right now? I wonder if those MDs were just responding in kind to your unprofessional behavior. Because I know I would (and in fact, I am very tempted to)

And lets not get into lame anecdotes about missed diagnoses or incorrect treatment plans or I'll have to bring up the case I saw last year where a young woman presented to my office for a 2nd opinion on recurrent subconjunctival hemorages that her board certified ophthalmologist insisted was caused by "dry eye" but turned out to be a case of conjunctival lymphoma which the OMD kept noting as a pinguecula.

Actually, I was just showing you how lame anecdotal evidence is, and how your use of it shows you desperate you are in this line of argumentation.

To be honest, I can see how MDs would hate working with you, and why they would respond to your hubris in kind. I'm more inclined to think that you're on some kind of ego trip in which you view almost any action as an affront to your power.

Let's do some analysis here. So supposedly 60 MDs are being arrogant, or 1 person is overly-sensitive to the arrogance she projects on others? What is more statistically likely. Lets see, calculate the p value, ..... hmm, could it possibly be your sawpaper personality? Nah, that would make too much sense!

The thing is, you don't even realize how arrogant or hypocritical you are being, and you simply project those characteristics onto others.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

You know I never thought I would say this because I am a really tolerant person...but I wish we could ban the ODs from this forum just like we banned them from the AAO conference...

Or, we could just invade the OD forum and act like they have been by making false provocations and calling everyone arrogant when they disagree with us.

 

[jefguth]

Actually, they could just as easily just use "optometrist", but obviously some ego issues are at play here

As Jenny has explained, optometrist began using the term so that managed care plan would reimburse them for their services. This does not mean they styled themselves as physicians, introducing themselves as such to patients, but rather sought legislative changes so they could use the title and bill for their services.

Again, I can understand that there maybe some who are using "optometric physician" outside of medical billing, but I believe they are rare and are doing a disservice to their communities, the profession, and their relations with medicine.

While I'm sure there are some OD's who use the term to boost their ego, I think the vast majority are happy and confident to stand on their own two feet and use "optometrist" or "doctor of optometry,"this is afterall what they are.

 

[mdkurt]

I personally like the title "ocular surgeon" rather than ophthalmologist.

The main problem with this is that patients tend to view you as a little too quick to cut if you identify yourself only as a surgeon. It also suggests that we don't do any primary eye care like refraction and contact lens fitting, which can really limit your practice. "Eye physician and surgeon" is kind of a mouthful, so I decided for my own practice to come full circle and let the "MD" at the end of my name speak for itself.

 

[JennyW]

Actually, they could just as easily just use "optometrist", but obviously some ego issues are at play here

Again, feel free to read any of the posts I've made with respect to this issue.

Wow, talk about hypocrisy. Pot meet kettle. Do you realize how arrogant you sound right now? I wonder if those MDs were just responding in kind to your unprofessional behavior. Because I know I would (and in fact, I am very tempted to)

No, they were just acting like the vast majority of 1st and 2nd year residents. By their 3rd year, they had usually outgrown it.

Let's do some analysis here. So supposedly 60 MDs are being arrogant, or 1 person is overly-sensitive to the arrogance she projects on others? What is more statistically likely. Lets see, calculate the p value, ..... hmm, could it possibly be your sawpaper personality? Nah, that would make too much sense!

*yawn*

Jenny

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Have there been or are there any planned studies that compare surgical outcomes between Oklahoma MDs and ODs for the procedures that both were allowed to do before the recent legislative?

All ODs do not understand because they've never worked with sick patients, and I feel that I must reiterate this point again and again. Please read, please think, and then post if you have really thought about the following.

To do surgery requires more than technical 'know-how'. Being a surgeon requires managing the whole patient and knowing when to cut and when to hold back. This can only be gained by:

1) Managing many, many thousands of surgical patients is a requirement to becoming a surgeon. I spoke to an Oklahoma optometrist yesterday during lunch. She said her laser training involved classes, labs, etc... She also assisted in pterygium surgery. I then asked her, does she agree that laser surgery requires knowing how to manage glaucoma patients surgically? And that this can only be done by co-managing thousands of glaucoma patients with faculty? She agreed. Then she understood why her 4 patients a day in optometry school where she spent 1 hour examining them each is truly inadequate for her to make the call when patients need laser surgery, although she 'technically' is familiar with the surgical procedure.

2) Even 'simple surgery' may require your internal medicine training. I recently did a simple skin repair on a post-MOHS patient on oculoplastics. We admitted the patient for 24 hour observation so he could get a wound vac. I get a call at 5 AM that he has coffee ground hematemesis (how many ODs know how to manage this?). Medical doctors know excactly where I am going with this. I come in and he had another episode of 500 cc of bloody hematemesis. He has a history of cardiac disease and s/p stenting of his heart. How many ODs know how to manage this?

ODs will start crying out... call 911 or internal medicine. I'm sorry, but the patient is admitted in the hospital with YOU as the attending. Medicine is not going to rush over. I called medicine, and they couldn't come and told me to stabilize the patient.

How many ODs know what to do next?

I took orthostatics, and he was hypotensive. I started two large bore IVs. Started IVF. Took a CBC and type and cross. His hematocrit was in the low 20s. I started transfusing PRBCs. I stopped his BP meds. I passed a nasogastric tube and was able to flush his stomache clean. He had a slow bleed in the duodenum from a gastric ulcer identified after GI scoped him two days later.

Do you undertand why surgical outcome data is useless? There's more to it than technical know-how. I can train my son to suture up a graft on a MOHS patient. However, can I teach my son the algorithm to diagnose, manage, and treat an already cardiac compromised patient with a GI bleed?

Ophthalmologists and optometrists can learn from my experience.

1) Ophthalmologists, being Eye Physicians AND Surgeons, do NOT forget your medicine background. Study hard and work hard during medical school and internship. Medical internship (thus medical school) is the one barrier to prevent ODs entry into surgical ophthalmology. It's been four years since I managed an upper GI bleed; however, I was comfortable and knew what to do promptly.

2) Optometrists, being a surgeon is more than knowing how to cut and suture. The above example demonstrates how a 'simple skin repair' could have ended up with a dead patient in less than 6 hours. Low crit -> heart attack -> stroke -> shock -> dead in a matter of hours.

 

[smiegal]

Let it go man!!!! OD's are Physician's of the Eye....Eye Doctor=Physician of the Eye=Optometrist. OMD's are Surgeons of the Eye=Eye Surgeon=Opthalmologist.....what about this do you not understand? Maybe it is the fact that out in the real world (laypeople) the terms Physician and Doctor are interchangeable.....

Main Entry: phy·si·cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zish-&n
Function: noun
: a skilled health-care professional trained and licensed to practice medicine; specifically : a doctor of medicine or osteopathy


Source: Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Source: Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition, @2003 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated, pg. 935.

Phy-si-cian 1: a person skilled in the art of healing; specif : one educated, clinically experienced, and licensed to practice medicine[/U] as usu. distinguished from surgery 2: one exerting a remedial or salutary influence

Types of Medicine in 2005 (various sources--if needed list is available)

1. Osteopathic Medicine
2. Chiropractic Medicine
3. Allopathic Medicine
4. Podiatric Medicine
5. Optometric Medicine
6. Dental Medicine
7. Homeopathic Medicine
8. Alternative Medicine
9. Oriental Medicine
etc.............

In no definition (that came from a non-allopathic source) was there any mention that the definition of physician was limited to only Allopaths (Medical Doctors) and Osteopaths (Osteopathic Doctors.)

A doctoral degree (OD, DO, MD, DC, ND, DDS, DMD, etc.) indicates a clinical doctorate in the chosen field of medicine (Optometric, Osteopathic, Allopathic, Chiropractic, Naturopathic, Dental, etc.) All are practicers of medicine in their fields.

Phy-si-cian 1: a person skilled in the art of healing; specif : one educated, clinically experienced, and licensed to practice medicine[/U]

Main Entry: phy·si·cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zish-&n
Function: noun
: a skilled health-care professional trained and licensed to practice medicine; specifically : a doctor of medicine or osteopathy


Source: Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Wow.....You need some anger management Mr. Vanelo. I have a big secret to tell you------we have Opthalmology folks in our forum too....lol Why don't you grab your club---Fred (Flinstone that is), and be a forum enforcer--you can keep your Optho buddies out of the Optometry forum too. And by the way--you need to include DO's in your last comment, "Leave real MD's alone please."--they have your training and some.

PS: I know a good Psychiatrist who is a family friend to talk to you about the insecurity you have about yourself. Or would you like to see a surgeon to correct it? Have a good day Mr. Anger Management.

Both you and Jenny are in the wrong forum, this is for future ophthalmologists, not for ophthalmologists wanna-be's [edited by Andrew_Doan]

Go back to your forum and discuss all you want there. Leave real MD's alone please.

Thanks

 

[vanelo]

Wow.....You need some anger management Mr. Vanelo. I have a big secret to tell you------we have Opthalmology folks in our forum too....lol Why don't you grab your club---Fred (Flinstone that is), and be a forum enforcer--you can keep your Optho buddies out of the Optometry forum too. And by the way--you need to include DO's in your last comment, "Leave real MD's alone please."--they have your training and some.

PS: I know a good Psychiatrist who is a family friend to talk to you about the insecurity you have about yourself. Or would you like to see a surgeon to correct it? Have a good day Mr. Anger Management.

Thanks, I'll consider it

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Dr. Doan,

In no way am I proposing that all opthalmologist have ego problems..I have known quite a few in my life because my family is very deeply entrenched in medicine. I have a lot of respect for surgeons of all types from DPM to Neuro. Most of the Opthalmologists I knew were class acts and would never make comments like I have seen on here--some of these are reprehensible and elitist. I feel you are a great moderator because you seem objective and credible. I am just trying to be as objective as possible yet support the profession I am going into. Issues abound---like what is going on in Oklahoma. The whole surgery argument is sooo volatile because you have a trifecta of issues--1. Patient safety 2. Opthalmology protecting its turf (If I was an OMD I would do the same!) 3. Optometry trying to evolve--at least in Oklahoma thru political means. I for one would not do anything beyond a "minor surgical procedure" when I am practicing----Chiropractors in Oregon can be trained in minor surgery (superficial lacerations) if they choose to use it in thier scope, family practice docs do minor surgery procedures as well. Maybe an eyelash removal, minor eyelid laceration, etc---these are things I want to do. Lasik, PRK, etc....I will refer to Opthalmologists. I appreciate your comments....

"Can't we all just get along?"

Fantasy Sports understands the issues well. It's not whether ODs should be called physicians. I have much respect for ODs as primary care eye doctors who can treat many eye diseases with medicines BUT NOT surgery (I am not including epilating, punctal plugs, massage, whatever you imply - I'm referring to cutting with a knife, laser, or altering with cold/heat). However, ODs are now going after more than just medical treatment. Laser surgery is only a step towards ocular scalpel surgery. Thus, it's not about our insecurity as medical doctors. It's about preserving the standard of care for our patients. Why must medical doctors go through extensive training, certification, and now competency verification (www.eyerounds.org/compindex.htm) to be surgeons and medical doctors while non-medical doctor groups increase their scope of practice through $$$, lawyers, and wooing the politicians???

FuturedoctorOD, until you learn more about the issues and what is going on with your leadership (look at Oklahoma), please stop flinging allegations that we have ego problems when in fact, our advocacy efforts are to protect the current standard of care for patients.

Read this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2289184#post2289184

 

[vanelo]

family practice docs do minor surgery procedures as well.

FYI, FP's went to med school, unlike OD's...

 

[odieoh]

How many times am I going to have to explain this???

Feel free to reread any of my posts on this issue to find out why that term is used, and why 99.99% of ODs who use it do so out of necessity.

Jenny

Jenny-

I've read your posts, and to a certain degree it makes sense that for billing purposes optoms can call themselves eye "physicians" but I don't buy that this is the only reason that "99.99" of optoms use this term. You don't have to plaster "optometric physician" all over billboards and newspaper ads (which I've seen) in order to be reimbursed. I think in a small population of optoms (small but far greater than your 0.01%) it does have to do with ego and blurring the line between OMD's and optoms.

On a separate note, I'm glad you post on this forum, I have found your posts informative and mostly accurate, and I think you are pretty level headed despite all the little flame wars that go on.

 

[Perzian]

Just wanted to point out something...

A dentist that wishes to do oral surgery has to go to med school and get an M.D. before they can do real oral surgery...

 

[futuredoctorOD]

I believe you are in error sir. I have a friend who has his DDS and is attending Ohio State for his OMFS residency--4 to 6 years. He deals with facial trauma and as a matter of fact when he is finished he will be Dr. so and so DDS OMFS (Oral Maxillo Facial Surgeon) or for short Oral Surgeon..He is on call for facial trauma. The OMFS's I know do oral surgery so I don't know where you are getting your information from. They are listed as "Oral Surgeons" lol...... As a matter of fact another friend of mine who did his residency at Cook County hospital is on call for facial trauma every week----car accidents, gun shot wounds, crushing injuries, etc....they call him at 2:00 in the morning to fix the problem.....Where are you getting your info from?

Just wanted to point out something...
A dentist that wishes to do oral surgery has to go to med school and get an M.D. before they can do real oral surgery...