Why is there a negative view towards Argosy University?

[Therapist4Chnge]

*MOD NOTE: For those interested in the more political side of things, you should take the discussion to the SocioPolitical Forum. It can be a rather entertaining place to post, with a bit more leeway than we have in here for political talk.* -t4c

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[WannaBeDrMe]

Again, I will have to disagree. There are many people who go to professional schools for a variety of reasons other than because they could not get into a phd program (i.e. geographical necessity, preference for an applied career and geographic need to stay in one location, etc.). Secondly, discussing those who have lower GREs/GPAs who are enrolled in professional schools - I would just say that one of the great things about life should be the opportunity to reinvent or better oneself.

With that said, while I am personally opposed to for-profit professional schools (as I am opposed to for-profit institutions health care, which put profits ahead of quality of care or health) - I am surpised that some of the more, uh, conservative individuals on this site do not support professional schools. Its supply and demand, right? If people are willing to pay $150,000 to pay for tuition, that is what the market allows.....right? Why not let them pay what the market will bear, right (forgetting about the new, large federal loan forgiveness program that just went into effect this past summer, as that occurred well after professional schools have established themselves)? Just like health care to the conservatives - let those who can afford to get quality care, and screw everyone else to preserve the "market" (even though that is, admittedly, an unfair comparison, as national health care will likely result in net savings over the long term for taxpayers).

I'm going to reverse respond. Bottom paragraph first; then top. Before I begin, I'm not speaking from the viewpoint of a conservative. I held a national appointment on a democratic caucus. None of this is directed at you, either, but rather just a response to your post. That being said...

1. Supply and demand? I'm not going to look up stats, so take it as opinion only, but I believe a HUGE problem is that these people can't AFFORD to pay $150k in tuition and are borrowing it to support their effort. The nation only now sees the horror in predatory lending re: overextending terms to offer individuals housing that they couldn't afford... this is the exact same slippery slope.

2. The loan forgiveness program being manipulated by people who attended outrageously expensive pay for play schools makes my stomach turn. Where do people think this money will come from anyway? We have 9 more years to see if anyone's loans are actually cancelled out... I'm not holding my breath. Especially with the way the new law has been twisted to fit the needs of predatory "schools" as a marketing tool.

3. I haven't seen your other posts about healthcare but this one is entirely off point and more rhetoric than fact. Complex human behavior influences decisions about how an individual chooses to care for themselves including whether or not they will make positive and healthy life decisions INCLUDING obtaining preventative care and even seeking out emergent care for acute issues. IT is not as simple as the rich get health care and everyone else is screwed. Health disparities are a complicated field study influenced by issues of socioeconomics, race, cultural traditions, geography, region, sociocultural and religious beliefs, etc. Your over-simplification of it is an offense to me.

4. Having a reason for a decision does nothing to encourage me to support/like/approve of the aforementioned decision. Stating that geographic reasons prevent someone from pursuing a traditional PhD program essentially takes the arrogant stance that those who do travel for doctoral work have less responsibility/more freedom than those who stay. MANY people pick up and move with families, disabled children, dying parents, financial hardships, severe anxiety about the move, etc, etc. The entitlement complex that exists with some people blows my mind.

5. GRE/GPA and re-invention? Sure, I'm all for it... but honestly, I think it's crap. I had a really rough GPA, barely 3.0 undergrad, and I had not grand GRE's... above average but not 1600 for sure... but I still secured multiple well-respected opportunities for myself over the years. I did what I had to do to stay in a player on a certain half of the field without going into areas that I considered to be out of bounds (pay for play professional schools). There are ALWAYS ways to better yourself within the realm of the existing systems. I'm all for creating change and inventing alternative solutions but when the end result is to weaken the overall existing structure, then really, how can you argue that your motivation for the change was anything other than pure selfishness? My personal values lead me to hesitate contribution unless I believe, 100%, that I will bolster the existing system or re-structure it in a way that benefits the whole rather than only myself and/or a few people.

Just my 3 cents...

 

[cara susanna]

Well said, WannabeDrMe. Though we apparently have opposite political views, I agree completely.

 

[aagman01]

Appreciate your post. I will respond to each under your post:

1. Supply and demand? I'm not going to look up stats, so take it as opinion only, but I believe a HUGE problem is that these people can't AFFORD to pay $150k in tuition and are borrowing it to support their effort. The nation only now sees the horror in predatory lending re: overextending terms to offer individuals housing that they couldn't afford... this is the exact same slippery slope.

---Sure it is. In my opinion, we need universal higher education. Barring that, the new loan forgiveness and debt capping programs provides all people the OPPORTUNITY to pursue advanced degrees. It is not like the debt is simply being forgiven - an individual has to make 10 consecutive years of responsible payments to have his or her debts forgiven.

Is the new system ideal? No. But I would rather pay out a small portion of my taxes to support higher education than to support corporate bonuses. Being that half of corporations do not even pay income taxes while most Americans do, I do not have a problem with the common guy (or gal, whatever the case may be) getting help in this way to complete schooling.

2. The loan forgiveness program being manipulated by people who attended outrageously expensive pay for play schools makes my stomach turn. Where do people think this money will come from anyway? We have 9 more years to see if anyone's loans are actually cancelled out... I'm not holding my breath. Especially with the way the new law has been twisted to fit the needs of predatory "schools" as a marketing tool.

---In what ways have these "new laws been twisted to fit the needs of predatory schools?" The new law largely is paid for through a change in the loan program. In the past, the federal government subsidized banks and private student loan companies who gave out student loans. Now the government is directly providing loans, saving hundreds of millions annually. This is a simplistic statement, but one that seems to fit - Banks and lenders lose, students win.

3. I haven't seen your other
posts about healthcare but this one is entirely off point and more rhetoric than fact. Complex human behavior influences decisions about how an individual chooses to care for themselves including whether or not they will make positive and healthy life decisions INCLUDING obtaining preventative care and even seeking out emergent care for acute issues. IT is not as simple as the rich get health care and everyone else is screwed. Health disparities are a complicated field study influenced by issues of socioeconomics, race, cultural traditions, geography, region, sociocultural and religious beliefs, etc. Your over-simplification of it is an offense to me.

---Of course there are a mileau of reasons that people do not have health insurance. Nonetheless, there are 40 million uninsured. And many of them are simply priced out of the marketplace or thrown out by health insurance companies. Healthcare costs are the #1 reason people go bankrupt - fortunately I have never had that happen to me. Most psychologists I suspect have not, as they tend to come from advantaged backgrounds. But it does happen.

4. Having a reason for a decision does nothing to encourage me to support/like/approve of the aforementioned decision. Stating that geographic reasons prevent someone from pursuing a traditional PhD program essentially takes the arrogant stance that those who do travel for doctoral work have less responsibility/more freedom than those who stay. MANY people pick up and move with families, disabled children, dying parents, financial hardships, severe anxiety about the move, etc, etc. The entitlement complex that exists with some people blows my mind.

---I too moved across the country to attend my current graduate program (well half way across the country ). I did so independently, as I have no financial support besides myself. I know others who have moved in spite of a variety of obstacles. That is great for them. However, I also know people who could not bear to leave loved ones behind, could not leave elderly behind, etc. People have different needs. People who do not move shouldn't be told "screw you" or your "not dedicated" or "not worthy" solely because they will not move across the country. As a budding psychologist, I am surprised more of us aren't concerned about the variety of human factors that can impact decision making and well being.

5. GRE/GPA and re-invention? Sure, I'm all for it... but honestly, I think it's crap. I had a really rough GPA, barely 3.0 undergrad, and I had not grand GRE's... above average but not 1600 for sure... but I still secured multiple well-respected opportunities for myself over the years. I did what I had to do to stay in a player on a certain half of the field without going into areas that I considered to be out of bounds (pay for play professional schools). There are ALWAYS ways to better yourself within the realm of the existing systems. I'm all for creating change and inventing alternative solutions but when the end result is to weaken the overall existing structure, then really, how can you argue that your motivation for the change was anything other than pure selfishness? My personal values lead me to hesitate contribution unless I believe, 100%, that I will bolster the existing system or re-structure it in a way that benefits the whole rather than only myself and/or a few people.

---This last paragraph above is particularly convoluted (no offense).

Congratulations on moving ahead in spite of barely having a 3.0 undergrad GPA. I am sure many in the professional school students would like to have had your great GRE score and the opportunity to attend a university if they could. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, it didn't work out for them as it did for you. Likewise, congratulations on not having to take out $100,000 + in loans. I have also avoided such debt. I am appreciative of that. Its good that we avoided falling into extensive debt for school.

So its unethical to take out loans and "pay for play" at professional schools. I personally do not like the idea of for-profit professional schools either - but I do not think I would say someone is "anything other than pure selfishness." for doing so. If they were truly selfish, why would they even enter our field. You can get a two-years associate degree and get a job that pays the same or more than many psychologists with a phd earn (i.e. nursing).

So your statement really makes no sense to me. Someone is trying to improve themselves and contribute in a positive way to society by going to a professional schools - and that makes them unethical and evil (what you are implying, I believe, as you state such people who attend professional schools are selfish). It sounds to me like rotten grapes - you got in, so screw anyone else who did not.


Just my 3 cents...[/QUOTE]

---Just my 3 cents

 

[aagman01]

I have thought through this and other ideas. THe implications of universal education is that people from less advantaged socioeconomic backgrounds will not be priced out of education. It happens. And much of Europe & many other less developed countries in the world have publicly funded higher education.

No, I do not think any entity that calls itself a university should be supported. In fact, I don't think private education should be publicly supported. If it is, it should not be supported for tuition to any greater extent than public education (and private/religious institutions should not receive any funding).

I also do NOT believe that any for-profit institution (such as, for one small example, the for-profit professional psychology schools) should receive public funds.

Lastly, I do think a series of safeguards should be built to ensure that the system is not abused (i.e. a max number of years to complete an education before tuition support is cut off, achievement level expectations, etc.). I also wouldn't have a problem with targeting a universal education towards specific public needs (i.e. majors in critical shortage/need areas) - that already has been done at the state level for certain career paths, such as nursing and education.

And regarding "supply and demand curves" education is supposed to be about freeing and advancing independent thought (my belief, anyways). Industry needs should play little role in universal higher education.

Awesome, I'm starting a university right now.

Please think through this idea. What are the implications? How would it manifest? In the US, we have private universities (that's who these pay for play programs are). You think we should just fund any business that decides to call itself a university and offers a degree?


Supply and demand curves operate on multiple levels in this scenario. Of course, at present, there is abundance of students (customers for these universities) that want degrees. The businesses involved have a huge supply of money available because of predatory student loan rules (that they exploit). But, just because there is ample supply of students does not mean there is ample supply of jobs, or of quality students, or that this influx of new grads will not harm the field.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

And regarding "supply and demand curves" education is supposed to be about freeing and advancing independent thought (my belief, anyways). Industry needs should play little role in universal higher education.

I wish that could be a realistic goal, but higher education in today's world is about access to jobs. 50 years ago a HS diploma was all that was needed, then it was a BA/BS....and now it is working towards advanced training. I think a big part of it (someone would say blame) are educational institutions that try and make artificial markets for their degrees. There are A LOT of fluff degrees out there....and not just in psychology. Education seems particularly prone to "education creep", since teachers get paid more for advanced degrees....regardless of their legitimacy.

 

[Kyle3309]

There is a lot of bickering going on between PhD, PsyD, APA, nonAPA, etc. I think we need to unite as a profession regardless of backgrounds, theoretical orientation of programs, who took on more student loans than others, etc. Self emploding within the profession won't do anything to help any of us.

 

[erg923]

There is a lot of bickering going on between PhD, PsyD, APA, nonAPA, etc. I think we need to unite as a profession regardless of backgrounds, theoretical orientation of programs, who took on more student loans than others, etc. Self emploding within the profession won't do anything to help any of us.

Yes, thats nice and all, but it will never happen. Moreover, I doubt many member of APS want to unite with APA....they specifically made it a point to seperate for a very good reason...that is.....they didnt want to be part of, or associated with, that view. They just have 2 fundammentally difernt views/opinions on the future direction of psychology. I really dont think they should reunite and hold hands. Further, I dont realy want to unite with some peoples views/standard of the profession. Some of them are diametrically opposed to what I belive in and i wouldnt want to be part of psychology if it was defined by them.

 

[Kyle3309]

Yes, thats nice and all, but it will never happen. Moreover, I doubt many member of APS want to unite with APA....they specifically made it a point to seperate for a very good reason...that is.....they didnt want to be part of, or associated with, that view. They just have 2 fundammentally difernt views/opinions on the future direction of psychology. I really dont think they should reunite and hold hands. Further, I dont realy want to unite with some peoples views/standard of the profession. Some of them are diametrically opposed to what I belive in and i wouldnt want to be part of psychology if it was defined by them.

That's the spirit!

 

[psychmama]

I think psychology is a very unique blend of art and science. This can be its greatest asset, but I think it makes these kinds of schisms inevitable. Sigh... I wish it were otherwise, but I fear erg's view is correct. We'll never be able to all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya."

 

[Kyle3309]

I never suggested holding hands, singing Kumbaya, or accepting everyone elses views. However, if we can't even agree to disagree and set aside differences so that we can come together as a united front for the betterment of the profession, to advocate for the profession, and to educate the public as to the real value of psychologists... then why should the public, employers, or isurance boards care. But then again, what do I know? Like a special someone informed me through PM, I am just a "stupid unlicensed fella."

 

[erg923]

fella[/I]."

...was this person a Italian mafia member or something.

 

[psychmama]

I never suggested holding hands, singing Kumbaya, or accepting everyone elses views. However, if we can't even agree to disagree and set aside differences so that we can come together as a united front for the betterment of the profession, to advocate for the profession, and to educate the public as to the real value of psychologists... then why should the public, employers, or isurance boards care. But then again, what do I know? Like a special someone informed me through PM, I am just a "stupid unlicensed fella."

Actually, I tend to agree with you. It's just that I've been hanging around SDN long enough to see the very real differences within the field of psychology emerge. I'm all for presenting a more united front to the public. As I mentioned in another recent post, why don't we ever see public ad campaigns educating the public about the valuable work psychologists do? All we ever hear about are the pharmaceuticals available to combat everything from depression to athlete's foot!

 

[JockNerd]

Oh, I'm all for uniting.

I just think we need to trim the fat first.

I don't WANT to unite with the prof. school fellow I mentioned in some thread who had never heard of SPSS, and whose theoretical orientation was capturable in a single word.

 

[ComeTogether]

This is absurd:

The APA is your governing body, not the university, thankfully
If the APA says a course is accredited (argosy) then your problem lies with the APA not the institution
If the Institution is not accredited and the student gains APA accreditation then the APA is saying they have every faith that this person is competent

If not - no license, no problem for you right?

Why argue against the courses, argue with the APA, i'm sure they will listen to you.

There are many checks in place to ensure competency to practice before a psychologist is ever allowed near a patient, you know this, so if they pass the accreditation processes then whats the problem?

Don't rely too heavily on the APA rubber stamp. Remember their recommendation:

The Commission on Accreditation (CoA) accredits psychology programs; it does not provide qualitative information about programs, nor does it compare or "rank" them. The decision about what program is "best" is up to the individual student.
The CoA encourages students to look for a program that meets both their professional and personal goals. Ask practical questions such as: Does the program offer the type of training I want? Can I live here? Is it affordable? Is the institution too big/small? Does the program appear to have a faculty and staff with whom I can work? Talk to the faculty, students, and alumni about your questions, concerns, and about your specific interests.
You can also ask programs about their outcomes, such as the types of jobs their graduates obtain. All APA-accredited doctoral programs are required to provide prospective students with data on their time to completion, costs, internship acceptance, attrition, and licensure (See Implementing Regulation C-20 for details). (see http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/program-choice.aspx)

A program might be accredited but how that program is implemented is up to the school itself. For more information see http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/about-accreditation.aspx

 

[Argosy Tampa]

As a parent of an Argosy Tampa PsyD student I can tell you that our daughter going to Argosy has been a nightmare for our entire family. You can review a lawsuit filed with Scott Mager, at www.magerlawyers.com. Other students are trying to organize a class action lawsuit. You can contact them at argosytampa.blogspot.com or contact Scott Mager's office directly in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. He is one of the few lawyers with expertise in handling student v for-profit school cases. I sincerely hope you don't get treated the way our daughter and family have been treated by Argosy! The issue for our daughter wasn't other students or a lack of seriousness about the program by students. It was the administration and selective faculty.

To whom it may concern:

RE:IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE
THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, FL

CASEY HAMEL,
Plaintiff, CASE NO.: 09 11228
v. DIVISION K

EDUCATION MANAGEMENT, LLC a wholly-owned subsidiary of EDUCATION MANAGEMENT HOLDINGS, LLC,
which is wholly-owned by EDUCATION MANAGEMENT CORPORATION; ARGOSY UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, INC.; ARGOSY EDUCATION GROUP, INC.;

MELANIE STORMS, Psy.D; JAMES HARLOW, Psy.D; JEANNE PETERSON, Psy.D; KATHIE BATES, Ph.D;
KATHERINE McKay, Ph.D; KRISTEN HUDACEK, Psy.D; CRAIG SWENSON, Ph.D; and MICHAEL FALOTICO, Psy.D.
Defendants.

From: The Hamel Family
Although we remain convinced that our daughter was not treated fairly by Argosy University Tampa, after considerable time, expense, and effort, we have been unable to document or uncover any pattern of abuse of students or other wrongful conduct on the part of the Tampa campus or the University as a whole.
Although our daughter's experience was not a positive one, it appears that her experience was not typical, and we apologize if we dissuaded any potential students from considering Argosy based on our postings to this site.

 

[RileyG]

yeah, it's not surprising the family wasn't able to document any other such evidence regardless of whether or not abuse was happening. if i were a current student there and was still hoping to eventually get a degree i would keep my mouth shut too. understandably, the students have probably invested too much (in time and financially) in their own futures to do what's right for the program as a whole. too bad for the hamel family. regardless of the outcome of this particular lawsuit, i still would never consider going to argosy-tampa (or any other argosy campus) nor would i let anyone i considered a friend attend argosy.

 

[deleted176373]

I am unsure who the poster above is (Tampa Argosy), and I don't know if the case has seen resolution, although I would doubt it as it was only filed last year.

It is still troubling to read other accounts online like this: "Please please do not consider Argosy for your Graduate degree. My daughter invested alot of money to receive her PsyD in psychology only to fail her CCE twice after all her course work was completed. This was after she turned in her written CCE, received great feedback and was given the green light to present it. Now she is 100 thousand dollars in debt and has no degree. This is a bright student who graduated with honors from the University of South Florida. There is something extremely wrong here. I am passing this by word of mouth so no other person has to go through this devastating experience."

Something about the Tampa campus appears to be not quite right. The letter appears to be aimed at limiting the families legal liabilities and not to clear Argosy of wrong doing.

Mark

 

[RileyG]

I am unsure who the poster above is (Tampa Argosy), and I don't know if the case has seen resolution, although I would doubt it as it was only filed last year.

It is still troubling to read other accounts online like this: "Please please do not consider Argosy for your Graduate degree. My daughter invested alot of money to receive her PsyD in psychology only to fail her CCE twice after all her course work was completed. This was after she turned in her written CCE, received great feedback and was given the green light to present it. Now she is 100 thousand dollars in debt and has no degree. This is a bright student who graduated with honors from the University of South Florida. There is something extremely wrong here. I am passing this by word of mouth so no other person has to go through this devastating experience."

Something about the Tampa campus appears to be not quite right. The letter appears to be aimed at limiting the families legal liabilities and not to clear Argosy of wrong doing.

Mark

this is a much better way of saying what i was thinking. i hope you could "sense" me rolling my eyes the whole time i was writing that though...

 

[aequitasveritas]

...anyone ever hear of a student suing Harvard, Yale, Michigan, Columbia, or other big name over their psych degree?

Sometimes the occurrence of contention makes a court decision superfluous.

 

[PsychGraduate]

...anyone ever hear of a student suing Harvard, Yale, Michigan, Columbia, or other big name over their psych degree?

Sometimes the occurrence of contention makes a court decision superfluous.

Yes actually I have heard of this happening.

 

[nononora]

O.J. Simpson. That is all.

 

[student til 30]

.

 

[aequitasveritas]

Yes actually I have heard of this happening.

...right. perhaps once in a blue moon...but they didnt hold congressional hearings as a response

 

[Student4Life0]

I am ready to pick up the phone next time this joke of a "school" calls me, and scream lots of explicit things at the annoying woman on the other line.

Before I did my research, I considered Argosy Tampa. After a day spent doing some online research, I crossed them right off of my list. I made the mistake of putting my phone number and name into one of their "I want information about the school" lists on the website. They have been calling me for over a month..consistently. Sometimes they call in the early morning. I finally picked up and firmly said that I was not interested in the school. They harrassed me and kept asking why, so I flat out told them that their internship rates were not what I expected, and that they are not competitive enough..that their entrance rates are very high. The women LAUGHED at me and rudely said "Clinical psychology programs are very competitive." I FINALLY got myself off the line. They did not stop calling. So I blocked the number. Now they just called me from a new number, and I picked up and said "I am NOT interested. TAKE ME OFF OF YOUR CALL LIST."

I can't believe how persistently they recruite students. I feel bad for any student that has gotten conned into attending.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I was curious about the captive internship they have in their Hawaii program, so I contacted them using the online chat thing to ask a few questions. They were quite pushy about getting me in contact with someone on the phone. I knew better than to provide a phone number, so I just logged off.

 

[Argosy Parent]

When I was in undergrad, my professors told me that Argosy was a good school? I'm about to be a second year Psy.D student at chicago's Argosy University, but I've been reading comments about how it's a "diploma mill," how it's a place for rejects to seek a piece of paper certifying them in the clinical psychology field, how some people think they're "too smart" for such a school, how they just want your money and don't give a care about your actual abilities, etc. Has anyone actually attended Argosy or are you just basing things on what you hear? Will getting my degree from there really hinder me in the job market? What's interesting though is that our clinical director said that the school is purposely being tough on the students, so they can earn a "better reputation and show that their students are highly intelligent." I don't know what he meant by that, or if he's implying that the school really does have a bad reputation.

I find all of my classmates to be competent and bright (certainly not the average joe that is just trying to find the easy way out), and we feel that the program is intense enough. Most of our professors are Ph.D's as well, and it certainly isn't a blow-off program. Someone said that professional schools don't match well with internship sites, but a girl did get an internship at Yale University. She's the first Psy.D student they ever had.


Any information would be appreciated. I just hope I didn't make the wrong decision by going to this school.


I made the mistake of only applying to 4 grad schools during undergrad (2 Psy.D's, and 2 Ph.D's). I got rejected by the Ph.D programs, but I had a 3.8 GPA, Gre scores in the 1200's range, and some clinical/research experience. I'm thinking about maybe stopping at my master's degree at Argosy, and re-applying to get a Ph.D again.

To whom it may concern:

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, FL

CASE NO.: 09 11228
DIVISION K

CASEY HAMEL,
Plaintiff,

v.

EDUCATION MANAGEMENT, LLC a wholly-owned subsidiary of EDUCATION MANAGEMENT HOLDINGS, LLC,
which is wholly-owned by EDUCATION MANAGEMENT CORPORATION; ARGOSY UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, INC.; ARGOSY EDUCATION GROUP, INC.;

MELANIE STORMS, Psy.D; JAMES HARLOW, Psy.D; JEANNE PETERSON, Psy.D; KATHIE BATES, Ph.D;
KATHERINE McKay, Ph.D; KRISTEN HUDACEK, Psy.D; CRAIG SWENSON, Ph.D; and MICHAEL FALOTICO, Psy.D.
Defendants.

From: The Hamel Family
Although we remain convinced that our daughter was not treated fairly by Argosy University Tampa, after considerable time, expense, and effort, we have been unable to document or uncover any pattern of abuse of students or other wrongful conduct on the part of the Tampa campus orthe University as a whole. Although our daughter's experience was not a positive one, it appears that her experience was not typical, and we apologize if we dissuaded any potential students from considering Argosy based on our postings to this site.

AND REFERENCE TO POSTING MADE 7/15/2010: Argosy Tampa

 

[Argosy Parent]

In attempting to respond to this thread Argosy Parent was displayed but the author of the initial thread ExpressYourself was not picked up. This statement is made in response to any and all references to the Hamel v Argosy EDMC lawsuit made in the Student Doctor Network Forum, Psychology Forum, Clnical Psychology (PsyD/PhD), etc:

To whom it may concern:

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, FL

CASE NO.: 09 11228
DIVISION K

CASEY HAMEL,
Plaintiff,

v.

EDUCATION MANAGEMENT, LLC a wholly-owned subsidiary of EDUCATION MANAGEMENT HOLDINGS, LLC,
which is wholly-owned by EDUCATION MANAGEMENT CORPORATION; ARGOSY UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, INC.; ARGOSY EDUCATION GROUP, INC.;

MELANIE STORMS, Psy.D; JAMES HARLOW, Psy.D; JEANNE PETERSON, Psy.D; KATHIE BATES, Ph.D;
KATHERINE McKay, Ph.D; KRISTEN HUDACEK, Psy.D; CRAIG SWENSON, Ph.D; and MICHAEL FALOTICO, Psy.D.
Defendants.

From: The Hamel Family
Although we remain convinced that our daughter was not treated fairly by Argosy University Tampa, after considerable time, expense, and effort, we have been unable to document or uncover any pattern of abuse of students or other wrongful conduct on the part of the Tampa campus or the University as a whole. Although our daughter's experience was not a positive one, it appears that her experience was not typical, and we apologize if we dissuaded any potential students from considering Argosy based on our postings to this site.

 

[Student4Life0]

Poor Argosy Parent. Don't worry...I still believe that this school is a joke.

 

[cara susanna]

Edit: Nevermind.

 

[Jackson Sensei]

I don't get all this talk of the APA refusing to accredit professional schools. The APA is a scientific body. It operates according to scientific consensus and the bi-laws that were passed and are maintained by its members. It has clear, publicly stated (and very high) standards for accreditation. Schools qualify for accreditation on merit (or not).

Get the latest edition of the APA's Graduate Study in Psychology and take a look. The majority of doctoral programs are unaccredited. That includes hundreds of public universities.

Your alma mater's "street cred" may impress some people, but your skills as a clinician are all that matter to your clients.

 

[Student4Life0]

I don't get all this talk of the APA refusing to accredit professional schools. The APA is a scientific body. It operates according to scientific consensus and the bi-laws that were passed and are maintained by its members. It has clear, publicly stated (and very high) standards for accreditation. Schools qualify for accreditation on merit (or not).

Get the latest edition of the APA's Graduate Study in Psychology and take a look. The majority of doctoral programs are unaccredited. That includes hundreds of public universities.

Your alma mater's "street cred" may impress some people, but your skills as a clinician are all that matter to your clients.

The majority? That just cannot be true. Where can I find this list?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Get the latest edition of the APA's Graduate Study in Psychology and take a look. The majority of doctoral programs are unaccredited. That includes hundreds of public universities.

How many of those programs are within the field of psychology, are applied, AND meant for licensure? Within those programs, APA-acred. is the standard. APA-acred. does not apply to the remaining programs, thus they shouldn't be used for comparison.

 

[Phipps]

I am ready to pick up the phone next time this joke of a "school" calls me, and scream lots of explicit things at the annoying woman on the other line.

Before I did my research, I considered Argosy Tampa. After a day spent doing some online research, I crossed them right off of my list. I made the mistake of putting my phone number and name into one of their "I want information about the school" lists on the website. They have been calling me for over a month..consistently. Sometimes they call in the early morning. I finally picked up and firmly said that I was not interested in the school. They harrassed me and kept asking why, so I flat out told them that their internship rates were not what I expected, and that they are not competitive enough..that their entrance rates are very high. The women LAUGHED at me and rudely said "Clinical psychology programs are very competitive." I FINALLY got myself off the line. They did not stop calling. So I blocked the number. Now they just called me from a new number, and I picked up and said "I am NOT interested. TAKE ME OFF OF YOUR CALL LIST."

I can't believe how persistently they recruite students. I feel bad for any student that has gotten conned into attending.

Yup. I had a similar experience with Walden U., Ph.D. in Clinical. Put my phone number down and that consistently called for quite some time. I never picked up though

 

[KillerDiller]

It has clear, publicly stated (and very high) standards for accreditation. Schools qualify for accreditation on merit (or not).

What is so high about the APA standards? They require 3 years of coursework which should touch in some way on specific competencies. These competencies are nothing groundbreaking, but should be a part of any clinical program (diagnosing, assessment, etc.). They require the department to have goals that it pays some lipservice to achieving (no matter what the goals are). They require that the department train students in diversity issues. Again, there is tons of leeway here. As for practicum experiences, the APA standard is that students should get "adequate" practicum training--no regulations on supervision, hours, or site oversight. These are not high standards, they are minimal standards.

 

[erg923]

All this "what's your problem" attitude seems to come from gross misunderstanding about the criteria for APA accreditation, as well as what it truly means.

KillerDiller, what you said is correct. 1) APA accreditation sets a minimum bar of goals/criteria. Most of these involve purely objective criteria like retention. The second part is a review of the program description. This is the part that gets most schools in trouble. The APA has very few requirements for programs. 2.) Accreditation is mostly based upon doing what you say your program materials say that you do. So, if you claim to prepare students to meaningfully contribute to scholarly journals and nobody has published in four years it is a red flag. That doesn't mean that all schools have to publish; it just means that a school has to publish if it says that this is what is trying to train people to do. I do not understand how or why this gets misconstrued, as this is readily clear and obvious if one takes the time too look it up. http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/policies/guiding-principles.pdf

Others have commented on how APA only accredits applied programs that prepare one for licensure (eg., clinical, counseling, school). If one takes the time to look up the data, it is readily clear that the actual number of existing accredited and unaccredited programs. Obviously, the vast vast majority are accredited

Lastly, the APA is an lobbying and accreditation organization for psychology. It is not a "scientific" organization. It is no way immune to the downfalls, groupthink, etc that any other professional lobbying organization is. In other words, it is most certainly fallible. The APA commitment to science has a long history of being questioned actually. Hence the formation of APS in the late 80s.

I am not sure what you mean by "street cred," but suffice to say that ones career opps are severely limited if they chose to attend an unaccredited programs. I suppose "street cred" matter to employers.

Jackson, many many students use this forum in order to learn about the field of psychology. I think it irresponsible to barge in here with a first post with so many false statements based on your obvious misunderstanding of the accreditation process. You are not helping anyone by providing false information/impressions. I would encourage you to keep this in mind before you decide to mouth off again.

 

[SHFWILF]

I have found that the cost of a program is positively correlated with the ease of getting through the program, and both are inversely correlated with the probability of passing the licensing exam(s). At least that seems to hold true here in California.

It's really time for our state's Board of Psychology to start eliminating a lot of these unaccredited programs that take people's money and teach them nothing. I have had the sad experience of supervising pre and post doctoral interns from some of these schools. I won't be doing that again; it's really too painful.

 

[KayJay85]

I have found that the cost of a program is positively correlated with the ease of getting through the program, and both are inversely correlated with the probability of passing the licensing exam(s). At least that seems to hold true here in California.

It's really time for our state's Board of Psychology to start eliminating a lot of these unaccredited programs that take people's money and teach them nothing. I have had the sad experience of supervising pre and post doctoral interns from some of these schools. I won't be doing that again; it's really too painful.

I suspect that correlation would hold true outside of California as well.

Also I have been puzzled by CA and NY trainees' attitude against having to move during training. The rest of us have to suck it up and compete nationally, perhaps they should consider the same.

 

[bunderj]

I suspect that correlation would hold true outside of California as well.

Also I have been puzzled by CA and NY trainees' attitude against having to move during training. The rest of us have to suck it up and compete nationally, perhaps they should consider the same.

I'm pretty sure it isn't a fear of competing nationally, as someone who lives in NYC, I can say that the idea of living in bumblef&#k for 6 years just isn't that appealing

p.s. and I am originally from bumblef&#k, so I am not bashing other parts of the country, but it is legitimately a lot more enjoyable living where I live now than were I grew up. I applied nationally and will go to the best program I get into, but it would be very nice if it were not in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Ollie123]

I agree with KayJay and have noticed that too.

Bunderj - I don't think anyone would suggest it is a "fear" of competing nationally. I understand your preference not to live in the middle of nowhere and your approach and attitude seem perfectly reasonable. I suspect every last person on this forum has SOME preference about where they want to train, whether they live in NYC, San Diego, or rural Idaho. I'd have loved to stay where I grew up even though it would probably be many people's last choice of where to live, but didn't even apply there because there wasn't a good training fit.

The issue I have is that I sometimes see people justify schools having high acceptance rates/low standards (though this seems less a problem in NYC than in CA for some reason) in these areas because the idea of having to move is just unfathomable and an unreasonable burden, when the vast majority of folks will have to do so. I just think its a poor justification for the existence of such schools.

 

[KayJay85]

The issue I have is that I sometimes see people justify schools having high acceptance rates/low standards (though this seems less a problem in NYC than in CA for some reason) in these areas because the idea of having to move is just unfathomable and an unreasonable burden, when the vast majority of folks will have to do so. I just think its a poor justification for the existence of such schools.

Agreed.

I think we are all inconvenienced by the re-locations, but a steadfast resistance to live somewhere else only feeds into poorer training programs that only aim to meet CAPIC standards, which for the uniformed applicant, is enough because they get a doctorate and get to stay in CA. Although this comes at quite a high price. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar regional/state internship accreditation pops up in NY, too. Don't get me wrong, I am not for the nomadic aspect of psychology training, but like Ollie pointed out, wanting to stay put is not a reason to sell yourself short in terms of training.

 

[edieb]

I have found that the cost of a program is positively correlated with the ease of getting through the program, and both are inversely correlated with the probability of passing the licensing exam(s). At least that seems to hold true here in California.

It's really time for our state's Board of Psychology to start eliminating a lot of these unaccredited programs that take people's money and teach them nothing. I have had the sad experience of supervising pre and post doctoral interns from some of these schools. I won't be doing that again; it's really too painful.

I agree. I used to be neutral about professional schools but am now at my first job which is also the site of an externship placement for "advanced" students at Fielding. These students basically get moved from clinician to clinician sitting on a session with a patient here and another there. There is absolutely no cohesion to their training. From talking to them, this seems to be their experience at all their rotations. I think Fielding basically has to beg sites to take their students. Since the sites have little invested, they either use these students as slave labor (no learning) or try to squeeze the students in whereever they can.

One of the students told me Fielding is now requiring APA internships to graduate. However, if they're on probation for having their students take so long to complete the program, won't this new requirement further protract time to complete the program?

 

[KayJay85]

I agree. I used to be neutral about professional schools but am now at my first job which is also the site of an externship placement for "advanced" students at Fielding. These students basically get moved from clinician to clinician sitting on a session with a patient here and another there. There is absolutely no cohesion to their training. From talking to them, this seems to be their experience at all their rotations. I think Fielding basically has to beg sites to take their students. Since the sites have little invested, they either use these students as slave labor (no learning) or try to squeeze the students in whereever they can.

One of the students told me Fielding is now requiring APA internships to graduate. However, if they're on probation for having their students take so long to complete the program, won't this new requirement further protract time to complete the program?

I'm glad that the APA is now stepping in, but saddened that so many students are getting ripped off in the process. On this forum, the issue of how some of these sites get accredited keeps coming up. I can't imagine that the powers that be at APA are unaware of the level of concern. I feel like there is this huge disconnect and perhaps it is apathy on the part of APA members. We all complain about it, but how do we make a dent? Does anyone know of the best way for a graduate student (APAGS member) to get involved? As a trainee, I can't do much in the state licensing board route.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I can't imagine that the powers that be at APA are unaware of the level of concern. I feel like there is this huge disconnect and perhaps it is apathy on the part of APA members. We all complain about it, but how do we make a dent? Does anyone know of the best way for a graduate student (APAGS member) to get involved? As a trainee, I can't do much in the state licensing board route.

Some people have left the APA because they do not feel like are being represented anymore. There are some alternative choices to the APA, but they have a fraction of the membership and funding.

 

[O Gurl]

I don't get all this talk of the APA refusing to accredit professional schools. The APA is a scientific body. It operates according to scientific consensus and the bi-laws that were passed and are maintained by its members. It has clear, publicly stated (and very high) standards for accreditation. Schools qualify for accreditation on merit (or not).

Get the latest edition of the APA's Graduate Study in Psychology and take a look. The majority of doctoral programs are unaccredited. That includes hundreds of public universities.

Your alma mater's "street cred" may impress some people, but your skills as a clinician are all that matter to your clients.

Others have already corrected your misstatements regarding accreditation, but I am still stuck on your heading that "no one owns the APA." I would think that our current debacle (record imbalance between internship applicants and sites, stagnant average salaries for psychologists, and market flooding) and continued accreditation of schools that consistently under-perform in terms of measurable outcomes (attrition, time to completion, internship match) and contribute to the debacle suggest that the APA is certainly answering to a subset of American Psychologists-- the ones matriculating into programs like Argosy in droves, later joining the APA and paying dues.

 

[DrGero]

Others have already corrected your misstatements regarding accreditation, but I am still stuck on your heading that "no one owns the APA." I would think that our current debacle (record imbalance between internship applicants and sites, stagnant average salaries for psychologists, and market flooding) and continued accreditation of schools that consistently under-perform in terms of measurable outcomes (attrition, time to completion, internship match) and contribute to the debacle suggest that the APA is certainly answering to a subset of American Psychologists-- the ones matriculating into programs like Argosy in droves, later joining the APA and paying dues.

I find that bizarre. APA dues are like, 400 bucks a year or something (right)? How can someone with 150K+ of debt and comparatively poor job prospects justify the expense?

 

[O Gurl]

I find that bizarre. APA dues are like, 400 bucks a year or something (right)? How can someone with 150K+ of debt and comparatively poor job prospects justify the expense?

The sarcasm of your response is not lost upon me. But programs admitting hoards of trainees produce more psychologists and more psychologists likely lead for more APA members. That is the only way their inaction as an organization that is supposed to advocate for and protect the field makes sense in my mind. But DrG, in response to your question, I guess they justify the expense by reminding themselves the APA is maintaining the accreditation of their alma mater despite [insert major questionable statistic]. Now we are talking about people who would go into $150k debt for a degree to begin with.

 

[SHFWILF]

The sarcasm of your response is not lost upon me. But programs admitting hoards of trainees produce more psychologists and more psychologists likely lead for more APA members. That is the only way their inaction as an organization that is supposed to advocate for and protect the field makes sense in my mind. But DrG, in response to your question, I guess they justify the expense by reminding themselves the APA is maintaining the accreditation of their alma mater despite [insert major questionable statistic]. Now we are talking about people who would go into $150k debt for a degree to begin with.

Precisely. What sane person spends 150K to give up years of their life and THEN has the prospect of getting a job that (on a good day) might pay about 60K per year ?

 

[edieb]

The sarcasm of your response is not lost upon me. But programs admitting hoards of trainees produce more psychologists and more psychologists likely lead for more APA members. That is the only way their inaction as an organization that is supposed to advocate for and protect the field makes sense in my mind. But DrG, in response to your question, I guess they justify the expense by reminding themselves the APA is maintaining the accreditation of their alma mater despite [insert major questionable statistic]. Now we are talking about people who would go into $150k debt for a degree to begin with.

Nonetheless, it is very important that we all join the APA and our state psychological associations. They are the only organizations that protect our scope of practice and, without our membership, they have no money to lobby on our behalf.

Additionally, remember it is the people who hold office in our organization that control the direction in which it goes. If you don't like professional schools, hold an office within the APA and use your influence accordingly!

 

[aequitasveritas]

When the student loan department was created I don't think anyone imagined providing doctoral training at 200k+ per student.

Tax payers are subsidizing the proliferation of for-profit and professional schools.

I think there is going to be a new era when we become more fiscally sane about our federal expenditures. Money utilization reviews and private endowment requirements would be a good start for any school receiving tax payer moneys.