Why do people recommend PA to medical students and premeds?

[Don R]

Yes sir as a psychiatric nurse practitioner and addiction specialist I get paid $150 per hour... All of my peers make between 100 and even as high as 175 an hour

Actually I take that back the top-earning NP I know is making $220 per hour working with suboxone

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[Don R]

So you make more than 90% of psychiatrists...

..this country....

Possibly... There's a lot of grant money available due to the opioid epidemic
Actually I take that back the top-earning NP I know is making $220 per hour working with suboxone

#453A moment ago

 

[Don R]

Thats what I mean though. If I get a bachelors in biology, its better to just do the 2 year masters degree for PA then to commit 6 years to becoming an NP.. In my opinion

Or get your Bachelor's in biology and then do an accelerated nursing program in 15 months to get your BSN and then do an MSN... You could be done within 4 years three and a half actually

 

[cbrons]

Possibly... There's a lot of grant money available due to the opioid epidemic
Actually I take that back the top-earning NP I know is making $220 per hour working with suboxone

#453A moment ago

Even the majority of addictionologists are not making as much as you are.

Well good for you.

 

[Don R]

Thats what I mean though. If I get a bachelors in biology, its better to just do the 2 year masters degree for PA then to commit 6 years to becoming an NP.. In my opinion

I know a few nurses that went to PA route for what reason I cannot even tell you... But they all regretted it... You're going to cap out at a much lower salary for a PA and depending on what state you're in you're going to have complete autonomy as an NP

 

[Don R]

I know a few nurses that went to PA route for what reason I cannot even tell you... But they all regretted it... You're going to cap out at a much lower salary for a PA and depending on what state you're in you're going to have complete autonomy as an NP

Sorry for my grammatical errors again I'm using my speech to text not the best

 

[Don R]

Even the majority of addictionologists are not making as much as you are.

Well good for you.

I don't know about that... Like I said before I know to NPS that are making $220 per hour using Suboxone maintenance therapy for opioid addicted individuals... Trust me psychiatrist that are doing the same thing or making that kind of money... It's just that NPs are getting paid basically the same thing as psychiatrist that work in the addiction field... granted that's also based on experience... But, I've only been doing it for 6 years...

 

[Raney Schauer]

I feel like I was actually more qualified for medical school than I was for PA school due to their requirements for hands-on patient care.

The clinical hour requirement published by my state school's PA program was basically code for "We're only really interested in converting NP's".

 

[Don R]

I don't know about that... Like I said before I know to NPS that are making $220 per hour using Suboxone maintenance therapy for opioid addicted individuals... Trust me psychiatrist that are doing the same thing or making that kind of money... It's just that NPs are getting paid basically the same thing as psychiatrist that work in the addiction field... granted that's also based on experience... But, I've only been doing it for 6 years...

Here's something I found about addiction psychiatrist... whatever path you choose I wish you nothing but the best!

 

[Don R]

Even the majority of addictionologists are not making as much as you are.

Well good for you.

Thank you... And whatever path you choose I wish you nothing but the best!

 

[cbrons]

I don't know about that... Like I said before I know to NPS that are making $220 per hour using Suboxone maintenance therapy for opioid addicted individuals... Trust me psychiatrist that are doing the same thing or making that kind of money... It's just that NPs are getting paid basically the same thing as psychiatrist that work in the addiction field... granted that's also based on experience... But, I've only been doing it for 6 years...

I do suboxone maintenance therapy as a medicine resident. It isn't hard to get an 8-hour certificate course (at least it is only 8 hours for physicians). I don't make $220 an hour for the days that I do it though, I'll tell you that. What I am saying is there are addictionologists (board certified physicians in medicine or psychiatry or family medicine also boarded in addiction medicine) who aren't making as much money as you are. Which makes me wonder why or how your salary is that high when even physicians aren't making that kind of money in the same specialty.

 

[Don R]

The clinical hour requirement published by my state school's PA program was basically code for "We're only really interested in converting NP's".

As an NP I think it's ridiculous how many hours we do... I think we should have to complete thousands of hours and I mean about five to ten thousand hours not the ridiculous 1000 hours to obtain your Doctorate of nursing practice...

 

[Don R]

As an NP I think it's ridiculous how many hours we do... I think we should have to complete thousands of hours and I mean about five to ten thousand hours not the ridiculous 1000 hours to obtain your Doctorate of nursing practice...

I think we should have to do just as many as residents do

 

[Don R]

I do suboxone maintenance therapy as a medicine resident. It isn't hard to get an 8-hour certificate course (at least it is only 8 hours for physicians). I don't make $220 an hour for the days that I do it though, I'll tell you that. What I am saying is there are addictionologists (board certified physicians in medicine or psychiatry or family medicine also boarded in addiction medicine) who aren't making as much money as you are. Which makes me wonder why or how your salary is that high when even physicians aren't making that kind of money in the same specialty.

I'm not sure... To become certified in Suboxone we only have to do 24 hours... And it's not a whole lot more than those 8 hours you do those additional 16 hours you actually can do it in about five... I'm just telling you factually what I make and what I know two people that are prescribing Suboxone make... I don't work with suboxone I only use Naltrexone or long-acting version Vivitrol

 

[Don R]

I do suboxone maintenance therapy as a medicine resident. It isn't hard to get an 8-hour certificate course (at least it is only 8 hours for physicians). I don't make $220 an hour for the days that I do it though, I'll tell you that. What I am saying is there are addictionologists (board certified physicians in medicine or psychiatry or family medicine also boarded in addiction medicine) who aren't making as much money as you are. Which makes me wonder why or how your salary is that high when even physicians aren't making that kind of money in the same specialty.

So you're a medical resident and you don't work in private practice or in a detox or outpatient substance abuse facility??

 

[Don R]

I do suboxone maintenance therapy as a medicine resident. It isn't hard to get an 8-hour certificate course (at least it is only 8 hours for physicians). I don't make $220 an hour for the days that I do it though, I'll tell you that. What I am saying is there are addictionologists (board certified physicians in medicine or psychiatry or family medicine also boarded in addiction medicine) who aren't making as much money as you are. Which makes me wonder why or how your salary is that high when even physicians aren't making that kind of money in the same specialty.

But, I'm sure you're not making less than 150 an hour? As a resident at a hundred and fifty an hour they're going to choose somebody like myself who has more experience at a hundred and fifty an hour... Again I don't know where you work but this is the tri-state area

 

[Don R]

The clinical hour requirement published by my state school's PA program was basically code for "We're only really interested in converting NP's".

Become an MD then I think you're going to regret becoming a PA... But all the best to you in whatever you choose!

 

[cbrons]

But, I'm sure you're not making less than 150 an hour? As a resident at a hundred and fifty an hour they're going to choose somebody like myself who has more experience at a hundred and fifty an hour... Again I don't know where you work but this is the tri-state area

As a resident working part-time, these are moonlighting gigs I am talking about not a full-time position.

As a resident at a hundred and fifty an hour they're going to choose somebody like myself who has more experience at a hundred and fifty an hour...

I don't know what area you are in, but I've never been or seen any place where the NPs make more than the physicians doing the same job (I say same job but rarely if ever are they doing the exact same thing, usually even if the responsibilities are the same the patient panels are quite different, with the higher acuity cases going to the MDs). You certainly wouldn't be paid more than me if I can prescribe suboxone and methadone, and all your credentialed to prescribe is naltrexone. In my state mid-levels cannot prescribe methadone (probably can't prescribe any schedule II but I would have to double-check that, in my resident outpatient primary care clinic, I have an NP who works next door and I think all the chronic opioid users automatically are scheduled with her supervising physician).

Residency training is more than 10,000 hours as well, which is more than 10x the amount that "doctorate" level nurse practitioners get (not that their 1,000 hours of training or schools is anywhere even remotely close to the same). That's another reason to consider medical school over either of the mid-level professions as just because a politician decides someone can practice without supervision doesn't mean it's safe.

With the exception of this gentlemen, I also haven't heard of NPs making this much money, so I would bet he is an extreme outlier. I do know that for hospitalists or primary care physicians making well over 400 grand in certain parts of the country, and psychiatrists doing the same. I would wager than $300,000 would place you close to the 99th percentile of all nurse practitioners, whereas that would be a pretty low salary for even just a family physician outside of the major cities. Rural PAs/NPs I could see doing pretty well, but from the data online 99% aren't coming close to $300,000 even if working in a dermatology or orthopedic surgery practice.

 

[Don R]

As a resident working part-time, these are moonlighting gigs I am talking about not a full-time position.


I don't know what area you are in, but I've never been or seen any place where the NPs make more than the physicians doing the same job (I say same job but rarely if ever are they doing the exact same thing, usually even if the responsibilities are the same the patient panels are quite different, with the higher acuity cases going to the MDs).

Again I make $150 an hour working 40 hours a week I only work 4 days a week I work 4 10 hour shifts make my own schedule come and go as I please if I want to work less I can if I want to work more I do that's just my hourly rate... So if I work full time it comes out to be 312000 annually... - my health insurance which is about 12000 and then I usually take about 4 weeks vacation a year so not that 300000 down 2 about 275 annually although I work some extra hours and bump it back up to 300,000...

 

[Don R]

Again I make $150 an hour working 40 hours a week I only work 4 days a week I work 4 10 hour shifts make my own schedule come and go as I please if I want to work less I can if I want to work more I do that's just my hourly rate... So if I work full time it comes out to be 312000 annually... - my health insurance which is about 12000 and then I usually take about 4 weeks vacation a year so not that 300000 down 2 about 275 annually although I work some extra hours and bump it back up to 300,000...

The fact of the matter is they're always asking me to do more hours if I wanted to work 50 or 60 hours a week I could... I just don't want to be burnt out

 

[Stagg737]

Check this link out... This is for a full-time position I just randomly found by doing a search on indeed...

How many hours are they asking per week? Patient load? Call? Night float/shifts? Benefits? That's an insane salary compared to every NP I've ever talked to. Also, an n=1 example doesn't make that the norm.

But, I'm sure you're not making less than 150 an hour? As a resident at a hundred and fifty an hour they're going to choose somebody like myself who has more experience at a hundred and fifty an hour... Again I don't know where you work but this is the tri-state area

Residents make on average around $17 an hour for their normal salary. Moonlighting can pay a lot more obviously, but the range for pay vary a ton (I've seen anywhere from $50/hr to $180/hr for psychiatry). It's crazy how backwards the system has become where NPs can go straight from undergrad to being an independently practicing professional in ~3 years when physicians have to do 4 years of med school then 3 more years of residency just to break 6 figures. Legitimately mind-boggling.

 

[Don R]

Again I make $150 an hour working 40 hours a week I only work 4 days a week I work 4 10 hour shifts make my own schedule come and go as I please if I want to work less I can if I want to work more I do that's just my hourly rate... So if I work full time it comes out to be 312000 annually... - my health insurance which is about 12000 and then I usually take about 4 weeks vacation a year so not that 300000 down 2 about 275 annually although I work some extra hours and bump it back up to 300,000...

Regarding acuity I have the same patient Acuity as other NPS I work with as well as the psychiatrist's I work with... I'm not trying to convince you I'm just stating something factually if you don't want to believe it that's fine... Wish you nothing but the best... And again I never claim to make more than the psychiatrist I work with but I make as much

 

[Don R]

How many hours are they asking per week? Patient load? Call? Night float/shifts? Benefits? That's an insane salary compared to every NP I've ever talked to. Also, an n=1 example doesn't make that the norm.



Residents make on average around $17 an hour for their normal salary. Moonlighting can pay a lot more obviously, but the range for pay vary a ton (I've seen anywhere from $50/hr to $180/hr for psychiatry). It's crazy how backwards the system has become where NPs can go straight from undergrad to being an independently practicing professional in ~3 years when physicians have to do 4 years of med school then 3 more years of residency just to break 6 figures. Legitimately mind-boggling.

I couldn't agree more I posted that I think NPS should have a minimum of a doctor of nursing practice and have to do five to ten thousand clinical hours. Just like residents do.. Rather than what most schools require 1000 hours... I think it's absurd

 

[Don R]

I couldn't agree more I posted that I think NPS should have a minimum of a doctor of nursing practice and have to do five to ten thousand clinical hours. Just like residents do.. Rather than what most schools require 1000 hours... I think it's absurd
I don't know if it is the norm else where I work here in the tristate area that is the going rate...I don't know what else to tell you

 

[Don R]

As a resident working part-time, these are moonlighting gigs I am talking about not a full-time position.


I don't know what area you are in, but I've never been or seen any place where the NPs make more than the physicians doing the same job (I say same job but rarely if ever are they doing the exact same thing, usually even if the responsibilities are the same the patient panels are quite different, with the higher acuity cases going to the MDs). You certainly wouldn't be paid more than me if I can prescribe suboxone and methadone, and all your credentialed to prescribe is naltrexone. In my state mid-levels cannot prescribe methadone (probably can't prescribe any schedule II but I would have to double-check that, in my resident outpatient primary care clinic, I have an NP who works next door and I think all the chronic opioid users automatically are scheduled with her supervising physician).

Residency training is more than 10,000 hours as well, which is more than 10x the amount that "doctorate" level nurse practitioners get (not that their 1,000 hours of training or schools is anywhere even remotely close to the same). That's another reason to consider medical school over either of the mid-level professions as just because a politician decides someone can practice without supervision doesn't mean it's safe.

With the exception of this gentlemen, I also haven't heard of NPs making this much money, so I would bet he is an extreme outlier. I do know that for hospitalists or primary care physicians making well over 400 grand in certain parts of the country, and psychiatrists doing the same. I would wager than $300,000 would place you close to the 99th percentile of all nurse practitioners, whereas that would be a pretty low salary for even just a family physician outside of the major cities. Rural PAs/NPs I could see doing pretty well, but from the data online 99% aren't coming close to $300,000 even if working in a dermatology or orthopedic surgery practice.

I know most NPS aren't there's no doubt about it but again if you specialize in addiction there are tons of grant money and they want me to work as many hours as I possibly could... They get $300 per initial assessment and $50 per follow up usually 20 minutes so paying me 150 an hour is still extremely profitable for them

 

[Don R]

As a resident working part-time, these are moonlighting gigs I am talking about not a full-time position.


I don't know what area you are in, but I've never been or seen any place where the NPs make more than the physicians doing the same job (I say same job but rarely if ever are they doing the exact same thing, usually even if the responsibilities are the same the patient panels are quite different, with the higher acuity cases going to the MDs). You certainly wouldn't be paid more than me if I can prescribe suboxone and methadone, and all your credentialed to prescribe is naltrexone. In my state mid-levels cannot prescribe methadone (probably can't prescribe any schedule II but I would have to double-check that, in my resident outpatient primary care clinic, I have an NP who works next door and I think all the chronic opioid users automatically are scheduled with her supervising physician).

Residency training is more than 10,000 hours as well, which is more than 10x the amount that "doctorate" level nurse practitioners get (not that their 1,000 hours of training or schools is anywhere even remotely close to the same). That's another reason to consider medical school over either of the mid-level professions as just because a politician decides someone can practice without supervision doesn't mean it's safe.

With the exception of this gentlemen, I also haven't heard of NPs making this much money, so I would bet he is an extreme outlier. I do know that for hospitalists or primary care physicians making well over 400 grand in certain parts of the country, and psychiatrists doing the same. I would wager than $300,000 would place you close to the 99th percentile of all nurse practitioners, whereas that would be a pretty low salary for even just a family physician outside of the major cities. Rural PAs/NPs I could see doing pretty well, but from the data online 99% aren't coming close to $300,000 even if working in a dermatology or orthopedic surgery practice.

Couldn't agree more starting entry-level should be a doctorate of nursing practice with between 5 and 10000 hours of clinical not 1000... Again I'm an NP and I think it's ridiculous... good luck gentlemen in your Pursuits! All the best Don

 

[Raney Schauer]

Become an MD then I think you're going to regret becoming a PA... But all the best to you in whatever you choose!

Well, Don, I didn't drunkenly stumble into the "Medical Students - MD" forum by mere happenstance. Are you oriented x 3?

 

[Don R]

Well, Don, I didn't drunkenly stumble into the "Medical Students - MD" forum by mere happenstance.

Well that's good to know... LOL

 

[Don R]

Well, Don, I didn't drunkenly stumble into the "Medical Students - MD" forum by mere happenstance.

It's better you make a clear-headed decision regarding your future... Again I wish you nothing but the best and whatever you do choose to pursue!

 

[cbrons]

I'm just telling you factually what I make and what I know two people that are prescribing Suboxone make... I don't work with suboxone I only use Naltrexone or long-acting version Vivitrol

If you don't prescribe Suboxone or methadone for opioid use disorder I'm not sure how you can make $300,000 per year.

 

[Don R]

Well, Don, I didn't drunkenly stumble into the "Medical Students - MD" forum by mere happenstance. Are you oriented x 3?

Why would you make a wise ass comment when I'm wishing you nothing but the best...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There is something weird going on here...

 

[Don R]

If you don't prescribe Suboxone or methadone for opioid use disorder I'm not sure how you can make $300,000 per year.

Listen I don't care if you believe it or not I'm just telling you what the facts are... I choose not to use Suboxone I'm certified... But I'm just not using it at this time as the facility I work in is not prescribing or using Suboxone were using Naltrexone or Vivitrol whatever...

 

[Raney Schauer]

Why would you make a wise ass comment when I'm wishing you nothing but the best...

If it walks like a duck and talks and like a duck and leaves duck crap all over the place.... I'm a wiseass Donnie. It's just what we do. It's like air to our kind.

 

[Don R]

If it walks like a duck and talks and like a duck and leaves duck crap all over the place.... I'm a wiseass Donnie. It's just what we do. It's like air to our kind.

Not exactly sure what that means... It really must be something extremely profound beyond the grasp of my knowledge... But I seriously doubt that...

 

[Don R]

If it walks like a duck and talks and like a duck and leaves duck crap all over the place.... I'm a wiseass Donnie. It's just what we do. It's like air to our kind.

You say it's what you do... And then you say it's what we do I don't think you're speaking for everybody... So anyway good luck with your $17 per hour as a resident I was trying to be nice and wish you nothing but the best but at this point go **** yourself LOL well I'm banking 300K a year ****ing fool...

 

[Don R]

If it walks like a duck and talks and like a duck and leaves duck crap all over the place.... I'm a wiseass Donnie. It's just what we do. It's like air to our kind.

When you say Our Kind does that mean jackasses LOL cuz if you're referring to Dr I am a doctor...and everybody refers to me as Doctor

 

[Don R]

If it walks like a duck and talks and like a duck and leaves duck crap all over the place.... I'm a wiseass Donnie. It's just what we do. It's like air to our kind.

Still wish you nothing but the best buddy!

 

[W19]

As a nurse practitioner I don't understand why anybody would do the PA route. So much more autonomy I do everything a position does no collaboration where I am. Excellent salary Etc. I truly don't understand why people become PA's

Some become PA because they fail to secure a spot in med school, but I think that the majority of people who go to PA school are people who had another career and for one reason or another want to be in the medical field. They see med school as too long and draining, and they don't see NP as a viable option because they have to be a RN first.

 

[W19]

How many hours are they asking per week? Patient load? Call? Night float/shifts? Benefits? That's an insane salary compared to every NP I've ever talked to. Also, an n=1 example doesn't make that the norm.

Residents make on average around $17 an hour for their normal salary. Moonlighting can pay a lot more obviously, but the range for pay vary a ton (I've seen anywhere from $50/hr to $180/hr for psychiatry). It's crazy how backwards the system has become where NPs can go straight from undergrad to being an independently practicing professional in ~3 years when physicians have to do 4 years of med school then 3 more years of residency just to break 6 figures. Legitimately mind-boggling.

It's not crazy! We, in medicine, accept that kind of BS... Sooner FM/IM will be 4 yrs and everyone will be ok with. It's madness!


A psych doc accepts to work for $50/hr!

 

[W19]

When you say Our Kind does that mean jackasses LOL cuz if you're referring to Dr I am a doctor...and everybody refers to me as Doctor

Hahaha... This is funny!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It's not crazy! We, in medicine, accept that kind of BS... Sooner FM/IM will be 4 yrs and everyone will be ok with. It's madness!


A psych doc accepts to work for $50/hr!

Doubt it. They started some pilot 4 year programs when I was an intern. That was 8 years ago. If this was going to become a thing, it would have by now.

 

[deleted547631]

Doubt it. They started some pilot 4 year programs when I was an intern. That was 8 years ago. If this was going to become a thing, it would have by now.

If anything FM needs to be shortened to two years like it is in Canada.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

If anything FM needs to be shortened to two years like it is in Canada.

Nope

 

[W19]

Nope

If i did 3-yr, so should everyone. That's the mentality in medicine. It's working fine in Canada. An upper classman is about to finish there in 2 wks and he said he will be fine going out to practice on his own...

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

If i did 3-yr, so should everyone. That's the mentality in medicine. It's working fine in Canada. An upper classman is about to finish there in 2 wks and he said he will be fine going out to practice on his own...

That's not it at all. It literally doesn't affect me personally if training gets cut down except that the new graduates will not be as well trained (even doctors get sick, after all). I've yet to meet more than a literal handful of practicing FM docs who didn't find the third year very valuable.

 

[W19]

That's not it at all. It literally doesn't affect me personally if training gets cut down except that the new graduates will not be as well trained (even doctors get sick, after all). I've yet to meet more than a literal handful of practicing FM docs who didn't find the third year very valuable.

I found plenty in both FM/IM that say it adds little to their experience.

I am heading to IM and couple of residents describe the program that way:

PGY1
First 6 months... Major handholding
Next 6 months... Some handholding

PGY2
First 6 months... Little handholding
Next 6 months... No handholding

PGY3
You are ready to make some $$$ for the hospital

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I found plenty in both FM/IM that say it adds little to their experience.

Dueling anecdotes it is then.

That said, I'd really appreciate it if you'd quit assuming that every time one of us is for the status quo it's entirely because "we had to do it so therefore everyone else has to". That's rarely ever the reason and you should know that be now.

 

[cbrons]

If i did 3-yr, so should everyone. That's the mentality in medicine. It's working fine in Canada. An upper classman is about to finish there in 2 wks and he said he will be fine going out to practice on his own...

Its possible he will. Residents progress at different rates. There was some noise made a little bit ago about making the length of residency competence-based, in other words, those who advance more quickly than others finish sooner amd those that dont finish later. There are obvious problems with such a system and it would def be open to major abuses (keeping residents longer than necessary just for cheap labor), which is why we dont have such a system. But not everyone needs the full length of their residency to practice safely, though probably most do.

What is crazy is that pretty soon they will require 2 year fellowship to becone boarded in addiction medicine. What you could once do without additional training. Physician training in this country is largely a huge scam.

 

[W19]

Dueling anecdotes it is then.

That said, I'd really appreciate it if you'd quit assuming that every time one of us is for the status quo it's entirely because "we had to do it so therefore everyone else has to". That's rarely ever the reason and you should know that be now.

When I see finishing PGY2 and PGY3 FM/IM residents are working with zero to very little attending input, I am left to assume that people have no solid objection to 'cutting down' programs like IM/FM/Psych other than I did it so should everyone...