Why do people go for an SMP when they can just go to Med School?

[agill786]

Hi guys,
I have been browsing a lot of these SMP threads and I have seen some of the stats that people have posted/listed on some threads like (Georgetown, Cincy, EVMS, Temple, RFU, etc.) It seems to me, that these people would have gotten into DO schools right away and some even MD schools if they applied broadly enough.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but why go through this hassle, then? From what I have read, SMP's are incredibly risky especially if you do bad (less than 3.5-I'm assuming?). If you get less than a 3.8/A-/top 10% average, it isn't even worth the effort in the eyes of ADCOM's from what I have see. Because they want to see that in spite of your poor undergraduate academic record, you can perform at the level of Med School by undertaking a curriculum that is only about half as intense (not 100% sure about this) as Med School curriculum. Heaven forbid you do less than 3.5, it goes against you and completely closes all doors to MD and DO schools in the country. In that scenario, you have also lost about a good $20K+ (in some cases $80K with 2 year programs and living expenses). That would be a huge risk and absolutely devastating.

Furthermore, a lot of adcom's, though they put more weight on SMP performance, won't entirely be blinded to your UGPA record. Additionally, from what I understand, the professors, faculty and staff at SMP's, don't really care how you do in the program once they get your money. But if you were in an actual Med school, the support you get from the faculty is tremendous and they make sure that you do well in the program so that you can match into a good residency and further contribute to the national prestige of the school.

I had been debating the SMP/formal postbacc route for awhile, but the risk of doing poorly (even getting B averages) is very frightening especially when you look at the cost of the programs. I'm happy to fork over the money for a regular medical school (DO or MD) as I would have somewhat of a guarantee (I know there's never such a thing, but for discussions sake, its pretty likely you will finish med school) that I would be on the right track. Further, it doesn't matter whether you get an A or C- as long as you PASS when you are in Med school....and the faculty will make sure you do so.

I guess my question is directed to those with reasonable MCAT's (27+) and GPA's of (3.2+) who chose to go this route. There's just so many factors, that make this path very unappealing to me and I would be very curious to know why you guys went this path. I'm sure there are horror stories from people who drop out of SMP's or do poorly, that the programs obviously don't advertise.

Maybe I'm just not such a big risk-taker and one of those people who likes safety? I know you have to work insanely hard in Med School and these programs in order to get by. Perhaps there is something I'm missing that you guys could elaborate on that might help me in my assessment? Am I really just exaggerating this element of risk?

Thanks guys!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[agill786]

Also, just wanted to apologize in advance if I'm offending anyone by my remarks/questions. I'm just truly curious as I'm contemplating this as well.

 

[James Sacket]

Everything you've said is true.
All of those programs exist to make money.

Unfortunately, many people don't know what they're getting into and end up hurting themselves in the end.
Medical students - although taking a heavier workload - do not feel the same kind of stress.
I've seen A LOT of people in these programs who haven't gotten anywhere; MANY had to change their career choice.
It's very sad.

The safe route is to do a normal post-bacc (not SMP), get high GPA, then reapply!

Do SMP only if you think you can score in the 90s in all courses!

 

[rls303]

Everything you've said is true.
All of those programs exist to make money.

Unfortunately, many people don't know what they're getting into and end up hurting themselves in the end.
Medical students - although taking a heavier workload - do not feel the same kind of stress because they simply need to PASS their courses.
I've seen A LOT of people in these programs who haven't gotten anywhere; MANY had to change their career choice.
It's very sad.

The safe route is to do a normal post-bacc (not SMP), get high GPA, then reapply!

Do SMP only if you think you can score in the 90s in all courses!

I sincerely pray for the sanity of those who have spent so much money on an SMP only to have their dreams crushed. What you said is true, once the program has your money, they won't help you like they help med students succeed.

 

[startswithb]

Hi guys,
I have been browsing a lot of these SMP threads and I have seen some of the stats that people have posted/listed on some threads like (Georgetown, Cincy, EVMS, Temple, RFU, etc.) It seems to me, that these people would have gotten into DO schools right away and some even MD schools if they applied broadly enough.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but why go through this hassle, then? From what I have read, SMP's are incredibly risky especially if you do bad (less than 3.5-I'm assuming?). If you get less than a 3.8/A-/top 10% average, it isn't even worth the effort in the eyes of ADCOM's from what I have see. Because they want to see that in spite of your poor undergraduate academic record, you can perform at the level of Med School by undertaking a curriculum that is only about half as intense (not 100% sure about this) as Med School curriculum. Heaven forbid you do less than 3.5, it goes against you and completely closes all doors to MD and DO schools in the country. In that scenario, you have also lost about a good $20K+ (in some cases $80K with 2 year programs and living expenses). That would be a huge risk and absolutely devastating.

Furthermore, a lot of adcom's, though they put more weight on SMP performance, won't entirely be blinded to your UGPA record. Additionally, from what I understand, the professors, faculty and staff at SMP's, don't really care how you do in the program once they get your money. But if you were in an actual Med school, the support you get from the faculty is tremendous and they make sure that you do well in the program so that you can match into a good residency and further contribute to the national prestige of the school.

I had been debating the SMP/formal postbacc route for awhile, but the risk of doing poorly (even getting B averages) is very frightening especially when you look at the cost of the programs. I'm happy to fork over the money for a regular medical school (DO or MD) as I would have somewhat of a guarantee (I know there's never such a thing, but for discussions sake, its pretty likely you will finish med school) that I would be on the right track. Further, it doesn't matter whether you get an A or C- as long as you PASS when you are in Med school....and the faculty will make sure you do so.

I guess my question is directed to those with reasonable MCAT's (27+) and GPA's of (3.2+) who chose to go this route. There's just so many factors, that make this path very unappealing to me and I would be very curious to know why you guys went this path. I'm sure there are horror stories from people who drop out of SMP's or do poorly, that the programs obviously don't advertise.

Maybe I'm just not such a big risk-taker and one of those people who likes safety? I know you have to work insanely hard in Med School and these programs in order to get by. Perhaps there is something I'm missing that you guys could elaborate on that might help me in my assessment? Am I really just exaggerating this element of risk?

Thanks guys!

Let me try to address some of your questions. I bolded the statements that made me go

SMPs are for people with competitive MCAT scores and low undergraduate GPAs. Any below 29 probably does not belong there. If you can't do really well on the MCAT, then you will likely never be competitive for med schools. The MCAT is something that you can take in one day and a new score can almost erase any poor old score. This is in stark contrast to the GPA. The SMP gives an opportunity to override poor ugrad GPA or bcpm GPA only.

You mention the "hassle" of an SMP. Really? The people that go into an SMP guns blazing are not worried about performing "poorly" or the "hassle" that you mention. These people want to prove to THEMSELVES and schools that they have what it takes to be competitive for any school, regardless of how they may have messed up in the past, resulting in a poor ugrad GPA. I don't think the good students with the right mindset come into the SMP afraid that they'll do poorly. They don't think of it as a risk to never ever get into med school if they fail, they think of it as a CHANCE to prove that they are smart and can succeed.

Now for the comment about "dooing poorly kills your chance forever." That's a little dramatic. Sure, if you fail out, that looks BAD. But saying that mediocre performance means you'll never get into either an MD or DO school is insane. I have personally talked to someone who got a 3.1 in their SMP and got accepted to an MD program. This was after they got a great score on their MCAT. I don't understand that rumor. Although, it's not a bad idea to go in with that attitude.

Ok, so what's with the rumor that SMPs are sink or swim? If SMPs are going to continue to be competitive and attract students willing to fork over the cash, then their graduates NEED TO BE SUCCESSFUL. How this is not obvious, I don't know. I have applied to and been accepted to an SMP, gotten the director's newsletter and multiple mailings from the grad school, talked to former SMP grads, and they all portray an encouraging environment.

Sure, if you "just want to go to med school," then an SMP probably isn't for you. If you are satisfied with your 3.2 and 27, go to any school that will take you. But remember that your attitude will follow you. How can you feel successful if you never truly pushed yourself? How are you going to be going into the boards when you couldn't even conquer the MCAT? If you're not worried about being competitive for med school admissions, don't worry about being competitive for residency. You have already mentioned that in med school you just have to pass. What med school, or what patients for that matter, want a doctor with that kind of attitude GOING IN. I don't blame you for taking the easier, less of a hassle road, if that will make you happy. But I have a feeling that if the other SMPers are like me, that simply isn't good enough.

 

[Gusgus11]

I really agree with this post. honestly, I have seen some stats in here that could get people in, and stats that I would die for, yet people feel the need to do these SMP's. I think people's deceisions are based on their feelings and misinformation on their stats for medical school. Also, I think people aim for the wrong schools/don't target their best shots. I think all med schools are good, afterall everyone is dying to get into one.

Personally, I am going to be at UMDNJ this fall for the MBS program. I hope to do well and redeem my undergraduate G.P.A. which is a 3.07. From my advisor and students I have spoken with, I have been told that it will also show that I can handle science courses at a higher level....hopefully. I am also doing it to build cofidence in my abilities to go further in the sciences. I don't think I am ready for med school, hence my deceision to do the masters program. However, I don't believe in coughing out $50K for an SMP.

 

[deleted248403]

A 3.1-3.2 and a 27 MCAT isn't getting you into a US MD school unless you are a URM, and/or are a Lousiana resident (one of their state school schools for instate applicants only has a really low average).

SMPs are for people who have like 29+ and lower than a 3.2-3.3.

Sure you can get into a DO school with a 3.3 and a 27; and definitely get into a foreign school but the road back to allopathic residency is harder, and so most people want to max out their US options before heading abroad or going DO

 

[deleted212839]

@startswithb: I agree that people who come into SMP are ready to do well, BUT
(1) med school curriculum is a whole different level
and (2) life happens, you understand what I mean? What if something happens while they're in the program? Something outside their control? I've seen a whole lot of it. It will affect academic performance. No one can predict life.

What med school, or what patients for that matter, want a doctor with that kind of attitude GOING IN. I don't blame you for taking the easier, less of a hassle road, if that will make you happy. But I have a feeling that if the other SMPers are like me, that simply isn't good enough.

"What do you call the person who graduates last in his med school class?"
"Doctor."
126 MD schools + 20-ish DO schools. Amen.

 

[drizzt3117]

"What do you call the person who graduates last in his med school class?"
.

Most of the people at the bottom of their classes aren't finishing med school. I know the party line is that people have a lot of support and it's hard to fail out of med school but that simply isn't true. Most med schools have about 10% attrition over the course of 4 years, they just don't really publicize that fact. If you can't succeed in a SMP you probably won't succeed in med school either. Also the BS about being able to get straight C-s and pass absolutely is not true. At our school you need a 3.0 to advance to 3rd year. This isn't an unusual policy. At P/F schools you usually have to pass all of your classes, which isn't trivial in med school. Our first year, the pass mark is set at 80%.

 

[deleted212839]

Depends on what you mean by "succeed."
If it means to *pass* the courses, most SMPers can.

 

[tobeatrev]

A 3.1-3.2 and a 27 MCAT isn't getting you into a US MD school unless you are a URM, and/or are a Lousiana resident (one of their state school schools for instate applicants only has a really low average).

SMPs are for people who have like 29+ and lower than a 3.2-3.3.

disagree with this generality. I'm neither a URM nor a Louisiana resident, I'm in an SMP and got into an allopathic school. sure I bring large amount of EC's and personal experience to the table, but simply giving a guiding light that give GPA and MCAT as the sum total of the thumbs up or thumbs down is not true in all instances. maybe from what you've experienced, but I have seen quite a few cases outside of this. I think if the OP wants sound advice they should talk to the admissions counselors of the schools he/she wants to attend for an SMP to "feel" out where they stand following completion.

 

[deleted248403]

Because I imagine you did well in your SMP...

If you don't do your SMP with those stats, you won't get in was my point

 

[Donnie1310]

I have seen some stats in here that could get people in, and stats that I would die for, yet people feel the need to do these SMP's.

Realize that numbers don't tell the whole story. Personally, I have decent numbers (what many would consider too high for an SMP generally), but am on my second cycle of applying and am sitting with one wait list position.

The high linkage associated with an SMP is the other important factor associated with SMPs, along with the opportunity to prove your academic abilities. I tried fixing weak spots in my app after the first year. This helped a lot, but obviously has yet to help enough to get an acceptance. It's time for me to use all possible resources.

 

[drizzt3117]

Depends on what you mean by "succeed."
If it means to *pass* the courses, most SMPers can.

SMPers aren't doing all the same classes as med students, they're doing a smaller subset without clinical responsibilities. They also have a lot more at stake given what we've discussed earlier. If they can't succeed in that situation, maybe a different career would be (and likely will be) a better option.

 

[rls303]

SMPers aren't doing all the same classes as med students, they're doing a smaller subset without clinical responsibilities. They also have a lot more at stake given what we've discussed earlier. If they can't succeed in that situation, maybe a different career would be (and likely will be) a better option.

True that. I should add, if you can't handle this curriculum you should probably just forget Medicine. Treat SMP like Med School.

 

[drizzt3117]

True that. I should add, if you can't handle this curriculum you should probably just forget Medicine. Treat SMP like Med School.

Makes sense bc m2/m3 are harder than m1 which is harder than a smp.

 

[rls303]

Makes sense bc m2/m3 are harder than m1 which is harder than a smp.

I agree with M2...

For M3, from what I have heard, it is considered harder due to the clinical aspect....but if your going into this field you ought to love that part.

 

[rls303]

Realize that numbers don't tell the whole story. Personally, I have decent numbers (what many would consider too high for an SMP generally), but am on my second cycle of applying and am sitting with one wait list position.

The high linkage associated with an SMP is the other important factor associated with SMPs, along with the opportunity to prove your academic abilities. I tried fixing weak spots in my app after the first year. This helped a lot, but obviously has yet to help enough to get an acceptance. It's time for me to use all possible resources.

I saw your post in the RFU forum and I am truly baffled as to why you are not accepted. I truly hope you can get your waitlist position, you seem like an exceptional applicant who would have no problem in Med school. You seem like the type of person the OP is referring to. I truly hope you do whatever you can to get off that waitlist position and can save the $$$ from SMP.

If you don't mind my asking, have you sent in an Letter of interest to the school you are waitlisted at? God forbid, you do not get off the waitlist position, do you think maybe it might be good to get a clinical job/EC of some sort instead of going through the SMP route?

On the other hand, perhaps it might be helpful to get you transition into med school (I'm assuming you have taken a year off from school).

I will keep my that you get off that waitlist!

 

[drizzt3117]

I agree with M2...

For M3, from what I have heard, it is considered harder due to the clinical aspect....but if your going into this field you ought to love that part.

In M3 you have to study almost as much as you do for M2, but are also in clinic 40-80 hours a week. Your grades also matter... whereas the only thing that matters from M2 is Step 1. The clinical stuff is cool but you honestly get less exposure to it than you would think, and that's unfortunate. There's too much BS busywork that you have to do and it takes you away from the patients.

 

[rls303]

In M3 you have to study almost as much as you do for M2, but are also in clinic 40-80 hours a week. Your grades also matter... whereas the only thing that matters from M2 is Step 1. The clinical stuff is cool but you honestly get less exposure to it than you would think, and that's unfortunate. There's too much BS busywork that you have to do and it takes you away from the patients.

Wow! Thanks for enlightening me. Not to downplay anything, but I'm sure that one gets used to managing time once M3 material comes along. The things we do for our education...but I guess you gotta keep telling yourself its only 4 years!

 

[drizzt3117]

Wow! Thanks for enlightening me. Not to downplay anything, but I'm sure that one gets used to managing time once M3 material comes along. The things we do for our education...but I guess you gotta keep telling yourself its only 4 years!

Haha you think it gets better in residency?

My schedule this wknd was Friday 4 am to 7 pm, mostly in OR or rounds, sat 6 am to Sunday 1 pm, back in the Hosp today at 4 am... Where's the time I'm supposed to be managing? As it was. I had some research meetings Sunday and did get a couple hours of reading in, but you're severely underestimating the time commitment on a busy clinical service.

 

[Donnie1310]

If you don't mind my asking, have you sent in an Letter of interest to the school you are waitlisted at? God forbid, you do not get off the waitlist position, do you think maybe it might be good to get a clinical job/EC of some sort instead of going through the SMP route?

On the other hand, perhaps it might be helpful to get you transition into med school (I'm assuming you have taken a year off from school).

I will keep my that you get off that waitlist!

Thanks, and my fingers are crossed as well! You actually touched on my point about a different kind of SMP applicant besides the low MCAT/GPA person. Had this been my first failed cycle, getting a clinical job would be the absolute smartest thing. Is is still? I don't know.

But I look at it like this after my second cycle: which gives me a better shot at acceptance, an SMP where provided you perform well you have around a 75% shot at that school (and a higher % of getting into a school), or a clinical job that adds an entry onto AMCAS.

A clinical job could be the silver bullet for me, but an MCAT retake and a fourth cycle would be the flip side if it's not.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

thread is tl;dr, but to answer the title, risk minimization

 

[deleted212936]

But I look at it like this after my second cycle: which gives me a better shot at acceptance, an SMP where provided you perform well you have around a 75% shot at that school (and a higher % of getting into a school), or a clinical job that adds an entry onto AMCAS.

A clinical job could be the silver bullet for me, but an MCAT retake and a fourth cycle would be the flip side if it's not.

Without knowing your stats, I'd say it depends on "what's lacking" on your app.
If you've had a 3.7+ GPA and 30+ MCAT, SMP isn't necessary.
I know a friend (4.0 GPA, 31 MCAT) who spent a year volunteering and got in the 2nd time.

 

[rls303]

Haha you think it gets better in residency?

My schedule this wknd was Friday 4 am to 7 pm, mostly in OR or rounds, sat 6 am to Sunday 1 pm, back in the Hosp today at 4 am... Where's the time I'm supposed to be managing? As it was. I had some research meetings Sunday and did get a couple hours of reading in, but you're severely underestimating the time commitment on a busy clinical service.

LOL! Okay it gets better after 6 years?

 

[Donnie1310]

Without knowing your stats, I'd say it depends on "what's lacking" on your app.
If you've had a 3.7+ GPA and 30+ MCAT, SMP isn't necessary.
I know a friend (4.0 GPA, 31 MCAT) who spent a year volunteering and got in the 2nd time.

I have a vague idea that it's clinical experience, but that can't explain everything since it's not like i have none. There's that luck component inherent in a process where several thousand are vying for a hundred seats that some people have a terrible time with.

There's the expensive but higher guarantee route of an SMP, or the almost free but risky route of volunteering. It's a very tough decision.

 

[drizzt3117]

I have a vague idea that it's clinical experience, but that can't explain everything since it's not like i have none. There's that luck component inherent in a process where several thousand are vying for a hundred seats that some people have a terrible time with.

There's the expensive but higher guarantee route of an SMP, or the almost free but risky route of volunteering. It's a very tough decision.

Unfortunately I think a SMP is probably your best bet. Like fresh fruit, pre-meds have a shelf life. For example, a family friend of mine who actually graduated pre-med from Wash U with decent stats (3.6/35) applied and received interviews at many top schools but no acceptances. He ended up doing some research and reapplying a couple times, and each cycle received less and less interest. I've lost track of what's going on with him but his first cycle was two years before I entered med school and I'll be a M4 in a couple months... take it for what you will.

 

[DCBFan]

Some factors that might encourage a borderline candidate to do SMP:
You have low gpa with many credits, making an informal post-bacc unreasonable.
You have low gpa and a good mcat that will expire soon.
You/your family have the money.

Its not like people are choosing between an SMP or med school. Most of those you see with good stats entering an SMP are coming off a failed app cycle, and not just for lack of a few volunteering hours.

 

[James Sacket]

The application process is such a mystery...!

 

[agill786]

Hi guys,
Sorry if my comments were a bit extreme. I'm fairly new to the process as well and I will try to educate myself more as it pertains to these programs.

I'm especially sorry about the Med School comment about Passing. I was always under the impression that it is extremely difficult to fail out. I know that there will always be those people who can't keep up for some reason or the other.

But I guess my question has been answered, there is too much variability in the process and those who have the determination to succeed can do well in these programs and get their peace of mind. It is sort of like "Med school with training wheels".....I guess my fear with these was for those who are the 15% who completely ruin their chances. But I suppose an SMP can have a 100% success rate if all participants put in the time.

 

[drizzt3117]

med school isn't easy... it's a lot of work and it's not all that hard to fall behind. I would say that a good 10-20% of people will fail or remediate at least one class, on top of the 10% of people who fail out or "leave for personal reasons" which is essentially the same thing.

 

[James Sacket]

SMPers aren't doing all the same classes as med students, they're doing a smaller subset without clinical responsibilities. They also have a lot more at stake given what we've discussed earlier. If they can't succeed in that situation, maybe a different career would be (and likely will be) a better option.

I'd done an SMP before so I know exactly what you're talking about. I agree about the amounts of workload one has to do for SMP VS. med school, but we should take into account the tremendous pressure the SMPers are under, they have a lot at stake, which more or less is a negative factor that will hinder them from doing as well.
Now that I'm in med school, all that stress is gone. I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel stressed at all, but it's a different kind of stress. One of the reasons many schools are on a P/F system is to motivate learning for learning's sake.

 

[drizzt3117]

I'd done an SMP before so I know exactly what you're talking about. I agree about the amounts of workload one has to do for SMP VS. med school, but we should take into account the tremendous pressure the SMPers are under, they have a lot at stake, which more or less is a negative factor that will hinder them from doing as well.
Now that I'm in med school, all that stress is gone. I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel stressed at all, but it's a different kind of stress. One of the reasons many schools are on a P/F system is to motivate learning for learning's sake.

They're on a P/F system because 1st and 2nd year grades don't matter anyways, so why hurt their students by making them count?

Med school gets a lot more stressful towards the end of m2, through m3, and until about... march 17th of M4.