White Male...Not a chance??

[ButImLETired]

Your definition of underserved is ridiculously narrow. Do you really want to argue that there are more underserved blacks than there are whites?

Again, a disadvantaged white is going to be much more likely to return to his or her underserved rural community than a rich white or a minority would. So why should a rich black kid whose parents could afford to send him to Harvard get the advantage over the poor white kid who worked his butt off working 40 hours a week on top of classes at a community college?

Ultimately, people are more likely to return to what they know. A black kid from Compton is going to be MUCH more likely than a white kid from an affluent neighborhood to return to serve the underserved in predominantly-black urban areas. I know this. However, the argument still follows that the underserved white kid from rural Kansas will more than likely return to serve his underserved town.

The common denominator here is economic status. The more affluent will be less likely to serve the underserved, urban or rural. This just isn't what they're used to doing nor do they feel comfortable in it. The economically disadvantaged, however, will feel more inclined to return to where they came from and help out their communities. This is why I have no qualms with giving economically disadvantaged applicants, regardless of color, a slight advantage in the application process. We need more physicians serving the underserved!

I say, give the black kid (or Mexican, or white, or Asian) from Compton a fighting chance to get a medical education! If that is truly an underserved area (which I don't doubt), we need more physicians willing to go there to practice!

However, why shouldn't a white kid from a rural underserved county have the same opportunity and advantage?

Hmmm well in your opinion where would the kids who went to great private schools on merit scholarships lie in your equation? Are they disadvantaged because they weren't rich to begin with or are they advantaged cause they went to Ivy-level schools?

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[ineedausername]

Why is this conversation/topic not seen for what is truly is, Pre-Med Whining. We have all seen it before starting in General Chemistry, Organic, in even in Physics. "I tried so hard, why does this other person deserve..." IMO the WHOLE process is unfair.

As for the merit/EC aspect of the argument, everyone knows that its "shaky". Clearly we ALL know that MOST (dare i say) Pre-Med CHEAT (old tests, coke bottles w/ writing, & use your imagination). From personal experience, I have seen -the top pre-med from my school ~4.0 35Mcat- CHEAT in EVERY class that I took with the person. LOL....

If you're a minority, then you get in with a lower school (OR by Merit - Top Pre-med at my school) and then face the critisicism that AA got you into Med School. Please, like everyone there hasn't cheated in at least a few classes. And the irony (if you think merit should dominate), when you get in, you discover more CHEATING.... LMAO......


I want someone (REAL righteous/pious)to deny that they haven't done something (albeit AGAINST school policy) to advance their grade. So, with requirements so high how could anyone get in? I'm sure most school expel/suspend for cheating.....

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I cant say ive ever cheated in college....There were a few things I did, just to look good though, errr like talk to my professors

 

[strongboy2005]

Hmmm well in your opinion where would the kids who went to great private schools on merit scholarships lie in your equation? Are they disadvantaged because they weren't rich to begin with or are they advantaged cause they went to Ivy-level schools?

That's easy, they're disadvantaged.

They are more likely to return to their poor (be it rural or urban) underserved community and serve. This is the point of treating them preferentially.

 

[193250]

Why is this conversation/topic not seen for what is truly is, Pre-Med Whining. We have all seen it before starting in General Chemistry, Organic, in even in Physics. "I tried so hard, why does this other person deserve..." IMO the WHOLE process is unfair.

As for the merit/EC aspect of the argument, everyone knows that its "shaky". Clearly we ALL know that MOST (dare i say) Pre-Med CHEAT (old tests, coke bottles w/ writing, & use your imagination). From personal experience, I have seen -the top pre-med from my school ~4.0 35Mcat- CHEAT in EVERY class that I took with the person. LOL....

If you're a minority, then you get in with a lower school (OR by Merit - Top Pre-med at my school) and then face the critisicism that AA got you into Med School. Please, like everyone there hasn't cheated in at least a few classes. And the irony (if you think merit should dominate), when you get in, you discover more CHEATING.... LMAO......


I want someone (REAL righteous/pious)to deny that they haven't done something (albeit AGAINST school policy) to advance their grade. So, with requirements so high how could anyone get in? I'm sure most school expel/suspend for cheating.....

This is not the same as pre-med whining. Yes there are whiners out there, but no one ever goes "The professor gave him a better grade because he is black or hispanic."

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

However, why shouldn't a white kid from a rural underserved county have the same opportunity and advantage?

Dude, they ARE! Have you looked at the average MCAT/gpa for rural medicine programs or medical schools with a philosophy geared towards rural medicine? Mercer, for example, has a median MCAT of 27.

At some medical schools, there are specific SCHOLARSHIPS for people who come from those rural areas! But since the data isn't collected/publicized on rural/disadvantaged applicants, ya'll think it doesn't matter.

Go sit down.

 

[193250]

At some medical schools, there are specific SCHOLARSHIPS for people who come from those rural areas!

Only at some medical schools?

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

To say URMs are more likely to serve the underserved is either ignorance, or blatant racism.

Is it? Ya'll like stats so much, let's look at a few sources:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1307223
The results indicate that minority graduates are more likely to locate their practices in areas with health care personnel shortages (53%) than are majority graduates (26%). Minority physicians had a higher proportion of Medicaid or Medi-Cal patients, and they saw a greater percentage of minority patients (60%) than did majority physicians (21%).

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/334/20/1305
After we controlled for the racial and ethnic makeup of the community, black physicians cared for significantly more black patients (absolute difference, 25 percentage points; P<0.001) and Hispanic physicians for significantly more Hispanic patients (absolute difference, 21 percentage points; P<0.001) than did other physicians. Black physicians cared for more patients covered by Medicaid (P = 0.001) and Hispanic physicians for more uninsured patients (P = 0.03) than did other physicians.

Minority physicians report caring for a higher percentage of minority patient (Moy and Bartman, 1995).

Then most URM's should be primary care physicians.

"Minority physicians [are] more likely to choose primary care specialties...Black and Hispanic physicians more likely to practice in nonsuburban/underserved areas" (AAMC, 1998) -- taken from "Women in Medicine" by Bowman, et al.

"Research has shown that minority physicians are more likely to practice in underserved communities-communities that often have higher rates of illness." http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/april2000/squeeze.htm

And most Whites should be primary care physicians as well since....MOST OF THE U.S. POPULATION IS WHITE!!!

Working with USPs doens't automatically equal primary care. Cardiology, psychiatry, etc. are other places whether there are huge health disparities according to HP2010.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

I hope ya'll know that AA was used to increase the # of White, female medical students.

Only at some medical schools?

I say "some" because I've only looked into the medical schools that I or folks that I know have applied to.

More stats from AAMC:
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2000/000906.htm
Medical schools at Howard, Meharry and the University of Illinois have graduated the most black physicians
Minority physicians practice in states with large minority populations
Internal Medicine is the leading practice specialty for Black graduates.

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2006/061116.htm
The proportion of Black/African American biology majors who applied to medical school has decreased from 83 percent to 44 percent.

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2006/physician_diversity_facts.pdf
51% of Black med school graduates vs. 18% White med school graduates planning to practice in an underserved area.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Is it? Ya'll like stats so much, let's look at a few sources:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1307223
The results indicate that minority graduates are more likely to locate their practices in areas with health care personnel shortages (53%) than are majority graduates (26%). Minority physicians had a higher proportion of Medicaid or Medi-Cal patients, and they saw a greater percentage of minority patients (60%) than did majority physicians (21%).

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/334/20/1305
After we controlled for the racial and ethnic makeup of the community, black physicians cared for significantly more black patients (absolute difference, 25 percentage points; P<0.001) and Hispanic physicians for significantly more Hispanic patients (absolute difference, 21 percentage points; P<0.001) than did other physicians. Black physicians cared for more patients covered by Medicaid (P = 0.001) and Hispanic physicians for more uninsured patients (P = 0.03) than did other physicians.

Minority physicians report caring for a higher percentage of minority patient (Moy and Bartman, 1995).




"Minority physicians [are] more likely to choose primary care specialties...Black and Hispanic physicians more likely to practice in nonsuburban/underserved areas" (AAMC, 1998) -- taken from "Women in Medicine" by Bowman, et al.

"Research has shown that minority physicians are more likely to practice in underserved communities-communities that often have higher rates of illness." http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/april2000/squeeze.htm

And most Whites should be primary care physicians as well since....MOST OF THE U.S. POPULATION IS WHITE!!!

Working with USPs doens't automatically equal primary care. Cardiology, psychiatry, etc. are other places whether there are huge health disparities according to HP2010.

I hope ya'll know that AA was used to increase the # of White, female medical students.



I say "some" because I've only looked into the medical schools that I or folks that I know have applied to.

More stats from AAMC:
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2000/000906.htm
Medical schools at Howard, Meharry and the University of Illinois have graduated the most black physicians
Minority physicians practice in states with large minority populations
Internal Medicine is the leading practice specialty for Black graduates.

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2006/061116.htm
The proportion of Black/African American biology majors who applied to medical school has decreased from 83 percent to 44 percent.

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2006/physician_diversity_facts.pdf
51% of Black med school graduates vs. 18% White med school graduates planning to practice in an underserved area.

WOW!!!! You got busy MsKrispyKreme!!! You shut this place DOWN!!!
Go MsKripyKreme, Go MsKrispyKreme, Go MsKrispyKreme!

 

[Lacheln]

WOW!!!! You got busy MsKrispyKreme!!! You shut this place DOWN!!!
Go MsKripyKreme, Go MsKrispyKreme, Go MsKrispyKreme!

No kidding. Way to break it down girl.

 

[Narmerguy]

WOW!!!! You got busy MsKrispyKreme!!! You shut this place DOWN!!!
Go MsKripyKreme, Go MsKrispyKreme, Go MsKrispyKreme!

Good lord she just laid down the hand of law

 

[brentb23]

hey

 

[brentb23]

51

 

[RoadRunner17]

It sucks to be a white male indeed, but it sucks even more to be an asian male. And yes, URM stats are lower than that of non-URMs. But the idea of merit-based admissions has been made into somewhat of a joke in this day and age.

Nothing you can do except to do your best and just hope that these admissions committees know what they are doing.

 

[saveourpens]

**** aa

 

[Caesar]

Moved to Topics in Healthcare. Please be advised that the TOS still apply in that forum.

 

[cali-ob]

Then most URM's should be primary care physicians.

i think "most" are.

 

[tncekm]

Personally, I believe that there should be race/ethnicity blind admissions and affirmative action based solely on disadvantaged status/low socioeconomic standing.

Although, I do agree this is beating a dead horse, its necessary to increase the number of accepted URM applicants. In short, without doing so it would be EVEN MORE difficult to find healthcare in URM urban communities. It frustrates me on an individual level (i.e. seeing people with lower stats getting tons of interviews while I twiddle my thumbs), but I understand that its absolutely necessary at the population level and we just need to deal with it while keeping the greater population in mind.

 

[tncekm]

Responses:

1. Yes, medical schools do fill URM quotas.

2. No, URM don't have slightly worse grades/MCAT averags, unless you consider 0.3 of GPA and 2-3 points on an MCAT slightly worse.

3. Whats next. Is there going to be a check box for homosexuals? Perhaps there should be a little check box for atheists, the most discriminated minority ever.

That's not a comparable issue. People need access to healthcare (i.e. proximity is important) and homosexuals who are not URM have just as much healthcare access as straight non-URM people. URM people have a lack of available healthcare (in reasonable proximity to their residence) and educating more white/asian people to be doctors doesn't solve that problem because, in all likelihood, they're not going to practice in the urban environments. Non URM doctors are, often times, uncomfortable with practicing in places like Compton and I can't chastise them for that, but it does create a situation that needs to be addressed and the best way to address it is to educate more people who will be more sensitive to the plight of those communities (ie. those who have lived there) and who are more likely to practice in those communities.

4. White males whom don't get accepted aren't the true sufferers; its the standard of care for future patients that really lacks.

Everyone has to pass the boards in order to practice- the boards set the standard for quality. And, don't disillusion yourself into thinking that practicing medicine is about "genius". Its not. Yes, there is a necessary level of intelligence needed to practice and that varies by specialty, but there is a major component of medicine that is artistic and requires empathy and dedication.

 

[mp1106]

Ok, seriously people, get over this already.
To say that there's a "quota" that needs to be filled out of one thing or another is pure crap. The thing is, you cannot have a class of only CA Asians or NY white people. Why? Because that's not how the world (i.e. your patient population) is. I think that focusing on AA as something that the government "owes" to a certain race is wrong- I certainly do not feel I am owed anything because I happened to be born in a Hispanic family, nor do I feel that my ethnicity in any way affected my education. But is it my culture, and part of who I am? Sure. I'd like to think there is much more to me as an applicant than the box I checked on AMCAS. I didn't work any less hard or did any less in terms of EC's because of it.
Nevertheless, I'd be happy to "contribute to diversity". Why not? The best relationships I had in college were with people who were totally different from me. We learn more from people who are different than people who are exactly the same. We're not all going into a science PhD program- we're going into medicine. Our grades and MCAT scores are just a small part of the puzzle, and we focus on them so much because they're what we can control. But they are a PART of the puzzle. We're going to have to serve people from all over the world, of all different ethnicities, of different sociocultural backgrounds etc. I am certainly no expert on the Latinos of NYC, but I speak their language, and am comfortable with their culture. Does that make me more qualified to be a doctor in general? Of course not. But every class benefits someone like me or an African American or a Native American because we understand our own cultures.
There are fewer minorities who get to this point (the application process) than whites and Asians. That means that we are a relatively small percentage of the application pool. If we see minority stats on a normal bell curve (which may or may not have a lower average than the majority stats, but who knows) and say, ok, we're only gonna take the 3.9/40s at Harvard, Harvard would have maybe a couple of minorities a year. Hopkins would take second pick, and down the line. In the end we;d have schools with NO minorities because their stats are too low, and only the very best 5 med schools would get any at all. And that can't be right either.

So suck it up!

Weell said

 

[badasshairday]

waaahhhh wahhhhhhh. Cry me a f'in river. Work hard and get in. Peace.

 

[DrShelmonMD]

I don't know about how true this is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. As I talk to more instructors at my school I keep hearing the same thing when I mention I'm going into medicine..."you're a white male, you better have a lot of volunteering, research and killer grades to get a good school". How true is this? Has anyone had any experience where they felt that while being selected they encountered some reverse discrimination? If I really need to I can mark hispanic on my applications; I would much rather not because I hate the idea of affirmative action, but if I have to state that I am part hispanic to get into a good school rather than getting in solely on my achievements then I will. Advice anyone? Or stories that clarify this issue?

Based on your original post, I think I can safely assume that you have not thoroughly researched this issue from both perspectives. I used to have similar thoughts about affirmative action before I took the time to hear both sides of the argument. You really need to do some research on affirmative action before you pass judgement. Futhermore, I would suggest taking a trip to a minority neighborhood and visiting some of their schools. Maybe then you will start to understand the more complex issue behind it all. The world isn't as black and white as we want it to be. Some issues take time and an open-mind to understand, espescially if you were raised in a predominantly white neighborhood. Affirmative action is one of those issues. I think that it is important for you to remember that you will never be truly educated until you're able to step outside of your box, and TRULY try to understand the (entire) world around you.

 

[tibor75]

I must admit, as an Asian male, I laugh my ass off when I hear about a white male whining about discrimination. Give me a break.

Kind of like Andrew CUOMO crying about Carolyn KENNEDY using her name to get somewhere.

 

[tibor75]

No sir. I was simply asking a question. Do people honestly believe that a higher mcat score means you will be a better doctor or more deserving of a medical education? Does a higher mcat score mean that you will better serve your community?

Yes I do, and it's naive to think otherwise. Now, for any ONE person, a 3.5 doctor may certainly be better than a 3.98.

But if you had 100 people with an average GPA of 3.8, and a 100 with an average GPA of 3.5, as a group the former will almost certainly will be better physicians than the latter.

 

[Tired]

But if you had 100 people with an average GPA of 3.8, and a 100 with an average GPA of 3.5, as a group the former will almost certainly will be better physicians than the latter.

It's amazing because (1) this is so obvious, and (2) everyone on SDN pretends otherwise.

 

[Miami_med]

Based on your original post, I think I can safely assume that you have not thoroughly researched this issue from both perspectives. I used to have similar thoughts about affirmative action before I took the time to hear both sides of the argument. You really need to do some research on affirmative action before you pass judgement. Futhermore, I would suggest taking a trip to a minority neighborhood and visiting some of their schools. Maybe then you will start to understand the more complex issue behind it all. The world isn't as black and white as we want it to be. Some issues take time and an open-mind to understand, espescially if you were raised in a predominantly white neighborhood. Affirmative action is one of those issues. I think that it is important for you to remember that you will never be truly educated until you're able to step outside of your box, and TRULY try to understand the (entire) world around you.

Affirmative action doesn't discriminate based on neighborhood of origin, and you would be naive to think that the majority of AA benefactors are coming from some urban slum.

 

[Rooni]

For the purposes of AMCAS, that is NOT true. It is totally on the basis of self-identification.

Hmm. Well, I have a German grandmother who was born in Mexico and told people she was Mexican during WWII to avoid prejudice, so...does that mean I can self-identify as Hispanic?

 

[LizzyM]

Hmm. Well, I have a German grandmother who was born in Mexico and told people she was Mexican during WWII to avoid prejudice, so...does that mean I can self-identify as Hispanic?

Sure, go ahead. But the adcoms may suspect that you are just blowing smoke unless you speak Spanish and know the difference between el papa and la papa. There can be some backlash against applicants who really aren't convincing when it comes to self-reported race, ethnicity or economic disadvantage.

 

[Rooni]

There can be some backlash against applicants who really aren't convincing when it comes to self-reported race, ethnicity or economic disadvantage.

Oh, I'm sure; I was only joking. I'm definitely not Hispanic and wouldn't ever tell anyone I was! The thought that status is completely based on self-identification just made me think about the crazy stories people could cook up to justify their "ethnicity."