White Male...Not a chance??

[xrevision]

I think affirmative action is doing a lot of minorities a disfavor. I know a lot of people at the ivy's who automatically assume AA when they see a minority, but at the same time we really do need more minority representation. what a complicated issue thats been beaten to death.

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[193250]

The average matriculant, sure.

The average African American matriculant has a 26.8 and a 3.43.
The average Mexican American matriculant has a 27.9 and a 3.51.
The average Caucasian matriculant has a 31.2 and a 3.68.
The average Asian matriculant has a 32.1 and a 3.67.

Source: The AAMC numbers I linked earlier in this thread. ( http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/mcatgparaceeth07.htm )

Oh, and the AAMC has no one grandparent rule, in any way shape or form. They count you as whatever you put yourself down as.

Sooo.... why do the "URM's" have a lower average MCAT and gpa?

 

[Wylde]

yes, you will need good ECs, good MCAT, good GPA to get into a top school.

what a surprise... ...

thats what happens when you are competing against 44,000 people for 17,000 spots and only about 1000 spots at "top schools".

 

[jr doctor in sd]

If I answer this question honestly, I will sound "racist". But the answer is simple. Let's say I told you if you needed ~3.2/25 to get into med school. Do you think many of these applicants would have 3.8s, 3.9s, 4.0s and 35+ MCATs? (answer is hell no). What happens when you have a high bar like US MD school admission for "majority" applicants, you get those 3.8s, 3.9s, 4.0s because you know how hard it is to get in and the chances of getting in med school are low unless phenomenal grades/MCAT scores are achieved.

For URMs, as Raryn nicely displayed, average african american needs 3.4/27 MCAT while the average white american needs 3.7/31 MCAT. If I was an African American, I'd be fully content with my current 3.45 GPA (which I really do have entering junior year) and I'd say I'd probably try and raise it to a 3.5->3.6 or so by graduation in order to secure my chances. BUT of course I cannot check that box that makes the application process FAR easier, so by graduation even with a hard-earned 3.6-->3.7 I will still only be around "average" for white matriculants.

Basically my POINT of this entire argument is that the lower you set a bar, the lower applicants will achieve and the less they will ultimately work. It works the opposite way as well. If the average GPA in a decade or two became 3.8 for all med schools, we wouldn't all of a sudden have no doctors. We would have even MORE competitive/neurotic pre-meds but we would still have people getting those grades instead of getting around the current averages. The only way for URMs to get the same grades, qualifications as every other med school student is for us to stop giving out these unfair advantages and to make the race card extinct.

And I hope I do not sound like some white bigot. For anyone's information, I am not white. Not a single person I meet can pronounce my first OR last name. I am from a rural area in Los Angeles. My family is not rich. I think that applicants should ONLY be considered disadvantaged if they are such - disadvantaged. I know a few majority kids who have had to drop out of college because the financial aid around was not enough. But for some reason all of my African American friends who apply for college financial help get more than enough scholarships/grants to make it easily.

Just what I see from firsthand experience and I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it needed to be said.

Sooo.... why do the "URM's" have a lower average MCAT and gpa?

 

[193250]

If I answer this question honestly, I will sound "racist". But the answer is simple. Let's say I told you if you needed ~3.2/25 to get into med school. Do you think many of these applicants would have 3.8s, 3.9s, 4.0s and 35+ MCATs? (answer is hell no). What happens when you have a high bar like US MD school admission for "majority" applicants, you get those 3.8s, 3.9s, 4.0s because you know how hard it is to get in and the chances of getting in med school are low unless phenomenal grades/MCAT scores are achieved.

For URMs, as Raryn nicely displayed, average african american needs 3.4/27 MCAT while the average white american needs 3.7/31 MCAT. If I was an African American, I'd be fully content with my current 3.45 GPA (which I really do have entering junior year) and I'd say I'd probably try and raise it to a 3.5->3.6 or so by graduation in order to secure my chances. BUT of course I cannot check that box that makes the application process FAR easier, so by graduation even with a hard-earned 3.6-->3.7 I will still only be around "average" for white matriculants.

Basically my POINT of this entire argument is that the lower you set a bar, the lower applicants will achieve and the less they will ultimately work. It works the opposite way as well. If the average GPA in a decade or two became 3.8 for all med schools, we wouldn't all of a sudden have no doctors. We would have even MORE competitive/neurotic pre-meds but we would still have people getting those grades instead of getting around the current averages. The only way for URMs to get the same grades, qualifications as every other med school student is for us to stop giving out these unfair advantages and to make the race card extinct.

And I hope I do not sound like some white bigot. For anyone's information, I am not white. Not a single person I meet can pronounce my first OR last name. I am from a rural area in Los Angeles. My family is not rich. I think that applicants should ONLY be considered disadvantaged if they are such - disadvantaged. I know a few majority kids who have had to drop out of college because the financial aid around was not enough. But for some reason all of my African American friends who apply for college financial help get more than enough scholarships/grants to make it easily.

Just what I see from firsthand experience and I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it needed to be said.

I agree with you all the way. The bar is set pretty low for URM's, so you are not sounding racist at all, just stating facts. The whole idea of URM is racist since it lowers the standard that URM's need to get into medical school, and thus assuming that they are not up to par with Caucasians or Asians.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Here we go again..................

Time to blame and bash the "URM's"..............

Oh goody!

 

[jr doctor in sd]

No one is blaming/bashing URM's. We are blaming the fact that affirmative action is a little TOO powerful, especially in the case of med school.
It is just non-debatable. A 3.7/31 is ALOT stronger than a 3.4/27, period. These averages are taken from pooling thousands of applicants. It's not like you can argue well these statistics could maybe not be representative blah blah blah. they are representative - it is far easier applying as URM. I didn't say I am angry at all at URM's or blame THEM, I blame the societal perception that URM's "need" that boost. That's what I hear from people constantly..."oh well theyre minority they need that small advantage for it to be fair". My HS valedictorian - Mexican. Our saludatorian (sp?) - 1 Mexican, 1 Black.

Out of all the people I know, the most brilliant are some of the most diverse. My argument is not that people that struggle (which are MORE OFTEN minority than others) should not have some sort of easier chance to get into med school because I understand that the harder it is to make it, the harder one must work.

I am arguing the fact that when a smart URM works hard and EARNS an acceptance into a college or med school or etc...they're just getting unfair boosts. Kids I know from suburbia that are URM win thousands of scholarship money while poor whites/asians are seen as the majority and not-deserving (hence they never get that $).

My only problem with the assisting of URMs:

1) the URMs that DO NOT struggle that work hard in school and do well are given bonuses/privileges they don't even need or deserve.
2) the URMs, having the bar set so low, can never do well enough to match the "majority" applicant pool as long as their averages needed to get in are consistently lower. There's no arguing this fact.

Here we go again..................

Time to blame and bash the "URM's"..............

Oh goody!

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

Here we go again..................

Time to blame and bash the "URM's"..............

Oh goody!

I see the McCain/Palin posters are out in full force tonight!

 

[jr doctor in sd]

If this is about me (which I presume it is), Id like you to know I will be voting for OBAMA this November. McCain is almost as bad as Bush, we can't handle that another 4 years

I see the McCain/Palin posters are out in full force tonight!

 

[BlackDr2b]

No one is blaming/bashing URM's. We are blaming the fact that affirmative action is a little TOO powerful, especially in the case of med school.
It is just non-debatable. A 3.7/31 is ALOT stronger than a 3.4/27, period. These averages are taken from pooling thousands of applicants. It's not like you can argue well these statistics could maybe not be representative blah blah blah. they are representative - it is far easier applying as URM. I didn't say I am angry at all at URM's or blame THEM, I blame the societal perception that URM's "need" that boost. That's what I hear from people constantly..."oh well theyre minority they need that small advantage for it to be fair". My HS valedictorian - Mexican. Our saludatorian (sp?) - 1 Mexican, 1 Black.

Out of all the people I know, the most brilliant are some of the most diverse. My argument is not that people that struggle (which are MORE OFTEN minority than others) should not have some sort of easier chance to get into med school because I understand that the harder it is to make it, the harder one must work.

I am arguing the fact that when a smart URM works hard and EARNS an acceptance into a college or med school or etc...they're just getting unfair boosts. Kids I know from suburbia that are URM win thousands of scholarship money while poor whites/asians are seen as the majority and not-deserving (hence they never get that $).

My only problem with the assisting of URMs:

1) the URMs that DO NOT struggle that work hard in school and do well are given bonuses/privileges they don't even need or deserve.
2) the URMs, having the bar set so low, can never do well enough to match the "majority" applicant pool as long as their averages needed to get in are consistently lower. There's no arguing this fact.

It just gets old. Always hearing the same thing over and over again. This thread is supposed to be about white males but yet it got diverted to talking about URM's. I have a question, do you honestly believe a higher mcat score means you are a better doctor?

 

[Lacheln]

It just gets old. Always hearing the same thing over and over again. This thread is supposed to be about white males but yet it got diverted to talking about URM's. I have a question, do you honestly believe a higher mcat score means you are a better doctor?

And, by extension, more deserving of a spot in medical school?

 

[strongboy2005]

If a high MCAT and GPA do not correlate with medical school performance, then why are they still used in admissions?

Are you saying minorities are just inherently eventually better doctors, so that their numbers shouldn't matter as much?

 

[ravens11]

I think the only color schools should consider is green. A white, black, mexican... student from a lower economic background generally would have a more difficult time becoming a physician (worse high school, less money for college, family obligations, etc.). The current process is only hurting minorities by lowering the bar for what is expected. A minority from a rich background that could normally achieve a 3.8gpa, will now settle for a 3.6gpa. On the other hand, a minority from a poor background, that would need to work their ass off to get a 3.5gpa, is being hurt in the process by being compared to others just because of their skin color.

If med schools had to decide between a black male from a rich cape cod family with a 3.56gpa versus a poor black male from baltimore city with a 3.52, the rich black male would get in because they have a slightly higher gpa. This doesn't seem like a very smart process.

If they had statistics for URM's from only economically disadvantaged backgrounds, i'll bet the statistics would dramatically change.

 

[jr doctor in sd]

I would feel 100% the same if I was you. I have a friend who applied to college (half Black/half Mexican AND she's female) and she chose not to state her race because she said she didn't want anyone to doubt her abilities and think she got in because of her race. And
she did get in some places (probably not the same number she would have compared to if she listed her race(s)) but it's very respectable of her.

To address your Q: Adcoms determine your ability to survive in med school (academically) via GPA and MCAT scores. Now, it has been established that higher GPAs and higher MCATs correlate to smarter/harder working people (which is why this system is used). Do i think a few points on GPA necessarily means someone is way smarter? NO. I had a bad freshman year and the past few Qs have gotten 3.9 averages every Q. But because of that year, my highest possible GPA will be a 3.6. Can I get 4.0s when I work hard (yes, as i have shown)? Will I work hard every Q until graduation (yes)? But at the end of the day i will still be screened out because of this system adcoms have adapted (that higher gpa = smarter, harder worker). So YES I think a higher MCAT/GPA means (in adcoms view which is what we're all working hard trying to please) a smarter/better candidate.

My Q for you is how would YOU feel if you were a white applicant with a 3.6/30 mcat and got into ZERO schools...and you sat back and watched so many URMs getting in with 3.4/27s? Do you really think you'd sit back and say oh well I'm not gonna get on this little bandwagon and bash these URMs? No, you'd probably be extremely angry and outraged that this type of race-based system is even in place. (at least, Id hope you would.) Think about it - knowing you'd have to waste a year and be a reapplicant and having to explain why you are a reapplicant - while that URM kid with worse stats/ECs gets in and is starting his second year of med school.

It just gets old. Always hearing the same thing over and over again. This thread is supposed to be about white males but yet it got diverted to talking about URM's. I have a question, do you honestly believe a higher mcat score means you are a better doctor?

 

[BlackDr2b]

If a high MCAT and GPA do not correlate with medical school performance, then why are they still used in admissions?

Are you saying minorities are just inherently eventually better doctors, so that their numbers shouldn't matter as much?

No sir. I was simply asking a question. Do people honestly believe that a higher mcat score means you will be a better doctor or more deserving of a medical education? Does a higher mcat score mean that you will better serve your community?

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

If this is about me (which I presume it is), Id like you to know I will be voting for OBAMA this November. McCain is almost as bad as Bush, we can't handle that another 4 years

Dude, it's not that serious! I'm a jokester.

I'm just with BlackDr2Be. The arguments just get old -- real old, real quick. The powers-that-be have a reason for the way they chose applicants. When you become one of those powers, you can change that situation.

As it is now, roughly the same percentage (~60%) of applicants from each ethnic group get accepted (with 0-4 URM per class) in non-HBCU schools. Many of the "lower stats" applicants end up doing primary care as well, and they know most of ya'll are lying about wanting to work with underserved populations.

Personally, I perform exceedingly well on standardized exams -- in fact, my MCAT score is higher than those of ALL of the White male physicians I have shadowed (who happened to be VERY high-ranking medical directors, chiefs of staffs, Ivy League SOM graduates, etc.) -- am I more qualified than them?

By the way, did you check out my previous post linking ya'll to a thread about the White Man's Reparations?

 

[strongboy2005]

I think the only color schools should consider is green. A white, black, mexican... student from a lower economic background generally would have a more difficult time becoming a physician (worse high school, less money for college, family obligations, etc.). The current process is only hurting minorities by lowering the bar for what is expected. A minority from a rich background that could normally achieve a 3.8gpa, will now settle for a 3.6gpa. On the other hand, a minority from a poor background, that would need to work their ass off to get a 3.5gpa, is being hurt in the process by being compared to others just because of their skin color.

If med schools had to decide between a black male from a rich cape cod family with a 3.56gpa versus a poor black male from baltimore city with a 3.52, the rich black male would get in because they have a slightly higher gpa. This doesn't seem like a very smart process.

If they had statistics for URM's from only economically disadvantaged backgrounds, i'll bet the statistics would dramatically change.

I agree with this post 100%.

I believe this is Barack Obama's general opinion on the issue as well. "Disadvantaged" should be completely separated from the color of one's skin. A millionaire's black son or daughter should not get any extra help getting into medical school, whereas a white kid growing up in the ghetto and barely making ends meet as he works through college should get a little extra boost. As the process stands, this is not the case.

 

[Lacheln]

If a high MCAT and GPA do not correlate with medical school performance, then why are they still used in admissions?

Are you saying minorities are just inherently eventually better doctors, so that their numbers shouldn't matter as much?

Because not everything is so...wait for it....black and white. Are the numbers generally somewhat indicative of some characteristics? Yes, and that is why they are still used. But you can make a very strong case that patients are much more comfortable with doctors that are like them, whether that's color, religion, language, whatever. Greater patient comfort leads to better medical care. Greater representation also provides role models for youth, and thereby raises expectations for community performance.

URM are not inherently better doctors in general, but they come from communities that are not currently effectively served by the medical profession, and one way to address that disparity it to recruit more physicians from those communities. It's not about fairness on the individual level, it's about raising up communities as a whole.

As with so much in life, it isn't about YOU.

 

[jr doctor in sd]

I agree with you Krispy , it does get old. And I don't like talking about it either (believe me haha). And as for when I am in power, changing the situation...then I will be exactly what people pro-affirmative action are. I will reject minorities with sub-par GPAs/MCATs then will be complained to that my school doesn't support diversity .

I just wish things were colorblind is all. Screw the sending in of pictures, screw filling in any race box. But i don't think that'd change anytime soon. Like I said, the most brilliant people I know if I lined them up would be a rainbow =). That's why screw the entire race system period. Because I, like those pro-affirmative action, am sick of hearing the race argument and just want to get rid of it altogether. I want people who have struggled growing up in poor neighborhoods (as I have witnessed first hand) to have a chance at their dreams of becoming doctors, no matter what race they are.

And sorry, mskrispy I didnt see your link please post it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, it's not that serious! I'm a jokester.

I'm just with BlackDr2Be. The arguments just get old -- real old, real quick. The powers-that-be have a reason for the way they chose applicants. When you become one of those powers, you can change that situation.

As it is now, roughly the same percentage (~60%) of applicants from each ethnic group get accepted (with 0-4 URM per class) in non-HBCU schools. Many of the "lower stats" applicants end up doing primary care as well, and they know most of ya'll are lying about wanting to work with underserved populations.

Personally, I perform exceedingly well on standardized exams -- in fact, my MCAT score is higher than those of ALL of the White male physicians I have shadowed (who happened to be VERY high-ranking medical directors, chiefs of staffs, Ivy League SOM graduates, etc.) -- am I more qualified than them?

By the way, did you check out my previous post linking ya'll to a thread about the White Man's Reparations?

 

[Lacheln]

If med schools had to decide between a black male from a rich cape cod family with a 3.56gpa versus a poor black male from baltimore city with a 3.52, the rich black male would get in because they have a slightly higher gpa. This doesn't seem like a very smart process.

Hilarious on multiple levels, but not least because it's very doubtful the rich black dude would triumph in this case. Adcoms are not automatons, they're capable of divining (and rewarding) diversity beyond which box you checked.

 

[strongboy2005]

No sir. I was simply asking a question. Do people honestly believe that a higher mcat score means you will be a better doctor or more deserving of a medical education? Does a higher mcat score mean that you will better serve your community?

Does being a certain race mean any of those things?

What makes someone "deserve" a medical education, and by that merit, why would skin color matter? I can totally understand a disadvantaged applicant who has to work harder to get where he is to have some sort of extra boost in the process, but that is not the way the current system is set up. Why should skin color be a qualitative assessment of an applicant's ability to be a good doctor?

 

[BlackDr2b]

I would feel 100% the same if I was you. I have a friend who applied to college (half Black/half Mexican AND she's female) and she chose not to state her race because she said she didn't want anyone to doubt her abilities and think she got in because of her race. And
she did get in some places (probably not the same number she would have compared to if she listed her race(s)) but it's very respectable of her.

To address your Q: Adcoms determine your ability to survive in med school (academically) via GPA and MCAT scores. Now, it has been established that higher GPAs and higher MCATs correlate to smarter/harder working people (which is why this system is used). Do i think a few points on GPA necessarily means someone is way smarter? NO. I had a bad freshman year and the past few Qs have gotten 3.9 averages every Q. But because of that year, my highest possible GPA will be a 3.6. Can I get 4.0s when I work hard (yes, as i have shown)? Will I work hard every Q until graduation (yes)? But at the end of the day i will still be screened out because of this system adcoms have adapted (that higher gpa = smarter, harder worker). So YES I think a higher MCAT/GPA means (in adcoms view which is what we're all working hard trying to please) a smarter/better candidate.

My Q for you is how would YOU feel if you were a white applicant with a 3.6/30 mcat and got into ZERO schools...and you sat back and watched so many URMs getting in with 3.4/27s? Do you really think you'd sit back and say oh well I'm not gonna get on this little bandwagon and bash these URMs? No, you'd probably be extremely angry and outraged that this type of race-based system is even in place. (at least, Id hope you would.) Think about it - knowing you'd have to waste a year and be a reapplicant and having to explain why you are a reapplicant - while that URM kid with worse stats/ECs gets in and is starting his second year of med school.

Honestly, if I didn't get in, I would think it is because of me. I am all about taking responsibility for yourself. I would have to check myself and see why it is that I didn't get in. I don't care about the next person. What is being angry going to do for you? Is it going to make your situation better? Is it going to get you in? Probably not. So it is just a waste a time and energy. But that is just how I am. I don't get mad and trip about other people's success. I celebrate the success of anybody. If somebody got in it is because they deserve it. The people on the committee's aren't dummies. they know who can hack it and who will make great doctors. They know who is genuine and who is real and who will fulfill their mission. Maybe that "URM" kid was a better fit, who knows. I just think it is old and people need to get over it and worry about themselves and worry about what they need to do rather than hate on the next persons success.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

Hilarious on multiple levels, but not least because it's very doubtful the rich black dude would triumph in this case. Adcoms are not automatons, they're capable of divining (and rewarding) diversity beyond which box you checked.

CORRECT. From my understanding (with the disadvantaged status option and the "what do your parents do?" common interview question listed on SDN feedback), there is a preference towards poorer applicants.

In fact, for college, I was turned down from a *certain* ivy league despite having a 4.0+ gpa (5's on all AP Exams) and 30+ ACT score/90+% score on SAT, but a friend of mine got in (2.0-2.5 gpa and low scores). The difference? My friend was raised in the projects...

I also was not considered for my current institutions minority scholarships...

 

[jr doctor in sd]

Fair enough. I greatly respect that you'd worry about yourself and working on what you need to do to get in next cycle. I agree that that is the best way to go, and I agree that people use URM situations as a scapegoat of some sort if they do not get in. It just sucks for me because I have met multiple people with good credentials for med school that got 0 interviews/acceptances. And I haven't even applied yet but the thought of the same happening to me is extremely scary/displeasing because of how much I want to get in and help people. I guess the best to do is to form some sort of system like strongboy said, separate race from "disadvantaged status". That way it can be ensured that this race jealousy/statistics bashing/etc. stops.

Honestly, if I didn't get in, I would think it is because of me. I am all about taking responsibility for yourself. I would have to check myself and see why it is that I didn't get in. I don't care about the next person. What is being angry going to do for you? Is it going to make your situation better? Is it going to get you in? Probably not. So it is just a waste a time and energy. But that is just how I am. I don't get mad and trip about other people's success. I celebrate the success of anybody. If somebody got in it is because they deserve it. The people on the committee's aren't dummies. they know who can hack it and who will make great doctors. They know who is genuine and who is real and who will fulfill their mission. Maybe that "URM" kid was a better fit, who knows. I just think it is old and people need to get over it and worry about themselves and worry about what they need to do rather than hate on the next persons success.

 

[strongboy2005]

But you can make a very strong case that patients are much more comfortable with doctors that are like them, whether that's color, religion, language, whatever. Greater patient comfort leads to better medical care.

I can totally understand this sentiment and this desire from the standpoint of a private institution (which is why I have no beef with the all-black private medical schools). However, I don't think public schools could get away with religious discrimination. I don't remember being asked what religion I was on my primary application. Using your logic, why is skin color given such a high emphasis when none of the other qualities that make up an individual are considered?

URM are not inherently better doctors in general, but they come from communities that are not currently effectively served by the medical profession, and one way to address that disparity it to recruit more physicians from those communities. It's not about fairness on the individual level, it's about raising up communities as a whole.

As with so much in life, it isn't about YOU.

I still fail to see the connection with skin color. Economically disadvantaged, yes. I have a lot of respect for someone who can pull off a 30 MCAT and 3.5 GPA while working 40 hours per week. And it is quite likely that changing the designation to a purely economic consideration would still encompass quite a few underrepresented minorities.

However, it would effectively exclude the under qualified minorities who are not disadvantaged in any way. In my opinion, this would be a more fair way of conducting the process.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

Honestly, if I didn't get in, I would think it is because of me. I am all about taking responsibility for yourself. I would have to check myself and see why it is that I didn't get in. I don't care about the next person. What is being angry going to do for you? Is it going to make your situation better? Is it going to get you in? Probably not. So it is just a waste a time and energy. But that is just how I am. I don't get mad and trip about other people's success. I celebrate the success of anybody. If somebody got in it is because they deserve it. The people on the committee's aren't dummies. they know who can hack it and who will make great doctors. They know who is genuine and who is real and who will fulfill their mission. Maybe that "URM" kid was a better fit, who knows. I just think it is old and people need to get over it and worry about themselves and worry about what they need to do rather than hate on the next persons success.

To add on to this, folks acts like it's non-URM vs. URM for seats when it's actually URM vs. URM (for a select few, reserved URM seats). Some adcoms might tell you this isn't true, but the evidence says otherwise.

I'm wondering how being a URM affects one's interview experience?

 

[BlackDr2b]

The other issue is that these "URM's" are the ones who are going back and serving our community. I was speaking to someone at a UC med school and I was telling her that it is a never ending cycle. People say they are going to serve my community and then they get into med school and of course they never do what they said they were going to do. So in the end my community gets cheated and it sucks and it is painful to see and experience.

 

[jr doctor in sd]

I just wanted to assure you that not all of these people are like that. I agree that I have met tons of people who say this is what they'd like to do for the rest of their lives...but you can almost smell the bulls*** off their breath.

I know I am in it to be able to serve the communities that do not have strong hospitals or health professionals. I don't see why I would become a plastic-surgeon/dermatologist (no disrespect to them - it is just not what I would do) when the people that need us most have the fewest doctors working for them.

The other issue is that these "URM's" are the ones who are going back and serving our community. I was speaking to someone at a UC med school and I was telling her that it is a never ending cycle. People say they are going to serve my community and then they get into med school and of course they never do what they said they were going to do. So in the end my community gets cheated and it sucks and it is painful to see and experience.

 

[ravens11]

Hilarious on multiple levels, but not least because it's very doubtful the rich black dude would triumph in this case. Adcoms are not automatons, they're capable of divining (and rewarding) diversity beyond which box you checked.

It was an exaggerated theoretical example and anyone with any 2-sense would understand what I was getting at. The last time I checked, if adcoms screened gpa's, they would be acting as "automatons", and thus, individuals from lower economic backgrounds would not be "divined" diversity. Also, racial issues are no laughing matter, but I'm sorry you feel the way you do.

 

[Lacheln]

I can totally understand this sentiment and this desire from the standpoint of a private institution (which is why I have no beef with the all-black private medical schools). However, I don't think public schools could get away with religious discrimination. I don't remember being asked what religion I was on my primary application. Using your logic, why is skin color given such a high emphasis when none of the other qualities that make up an individual are considered?

Because skin color is tangible, not a choice, and a historically tainted topic here. I wouldn't say that no other qualities are considered though? I mean, do you mean in checkbox format?

I still fail to see the connection with skin color. Economically disadvantaged, yes. I have a lot of respect for someone who can pull off a 30 MCAT and 3.5 GPA while working 40 hours per week. And it is quite likely that changing the designation to a purely economic consideration would still encompass quite a few underrepresented minorities.

However, it would effectively exclude the under qualified minorities who are not disadvantaged in any way. In my opinion, this would be a more fair way of conducting the process.

Like I said, part of this really isn't about fairness. It's about doing something to help communities that are struggling due to neglect. Say you have a black applicant who is not economically disadvantaged and a white applicant who is not economically disadvantaged - which of these do you think is more likely to work with the black community? If one of your goals as a medical school was to help ensure that patient populations suffering from service disparities were taken care of, which would you take?

 

[ButImLETired]

Hahaha these threads always make me laugh because they are SO obtuse.

Just because URMs have lower stats in general, it doesn't mean that they won't try as hard. I swear to you, there was never a moment in my orgo class or in my chem class where I was like "hell, I'm going to go out partying because my mother's Colombian, so I'm golden". That would be beyond ******ed. I don't know anyone in college who did that. We all studied together, we all worked just as hard, and I never had a conversation with an Asian or Caucasian friend in which they told me they had to work harder than I did. We all did the very best we could. To say that URMs try less hard because they don't have to try as hard is preposterous and insulting. And I am not one to get easily insulted.

As for why URM stats tend to be lower, your guess is as good as mine. A lot of Hispanics are first generation, so maybe their stats are lower because their first language isn't English. Minorities also still tend to live in inner city areas where the public education isn't as great. These are all guesses, of course.

As for only considering disadvantaged status, I'd say consider my situation. I had both a disability and a LOT of family issues that affected my work. Nevertheless, I learned a language in 4 months, I got a scholarship for private high school, a scholarship for private university, and never took a Kaplan class cause hey, too expensive. Educationally, I've been as fortunate as can be. Would I count as disadvantaged, even with an all-private school education? If you're making the argument that URMs don't try hard enough, then I can certainly make the argument that people who didn't get a scholarship to better schools didn't try hard enough. You know what? I'd be putting my head up my butt. Cause that's a stupid argument.

Everyone is up in arms about the URM thing because it's the one thing you can't control. Well, tough. You can't control the fact that you were born in a caucasian/asian/whatever family. I can't control the fact that I had to learn a new language in 4 months. And no med school takes that into consideration. It is what it is. If you get in somewhere, it's cause you deserve it. If you don't, it's cause you had a bad year. It happens. There are no guarantees for anyone.

 

[193250]

Because skin color is tangible, not a choice, and a historically tainted topic here. I wouldn't say that no other qualities are considered though? I mean, do you mean in checkbox format?



Like I said, part of this really isn't about fairness. It's about doing something to help communities that are struggling due to neglect. Say you have a black applicant who is not economically disadvantaged and a white applicant who is not economically disadvantaged - which of these do you think is more likely to work with the black community? If one of your goals as a medical school was to help ensure that patient populations suffering from service disparities were taken care of, which would you take?

Then most URM's should be primary care physicians.

 

[BlackDr2b]

I just wanted to assure you that not all of these people are like that. I agree that I have met tons of people who say this is what they'd like to do for the rest of their lives...but you can almost smell the bulls*** off their breath.

I know I am in it to be able to serve the communities that do not have strong hospitals or health professionals. I don't see why I would become a plastic-surgeon/dermatologist (no disrespect to them - it is just not what I would do) when the people that need us most have the fewest doctors working for them.

You are right JR Doc. I appreciate what you want to do and I hope it all works out for you. I have no ill feelings toward you at all. We are cool. We had a discussion. I know there are good people out there who do want to serve my community. I don't have the best mcat score, but if given the opportunity to be in the class of 2013, I am going to prove all of the naysayers and statistics wrong.

How is the cycle going for you?

 

[jr doctor in sd]

Because skin color is tangible, not a choice, and a historically tainted topic here. I wouldn't say that no other qualities are considered though? I mean, do you mean in checkbox format?



Like I said, part of this really isn't about fairness. It's about doing something to help communities that are struggling due to neglect. Say you have a black applicant who is not economically disadvantaged and a white applicant who is not economically disadvantaged - which of these do you think is more likely to work with the black community? If one of your goals as a medical school was to help ensure that patient populations suffering from service disparities were taken care of, which would you take?

More likely is the black applicant, in my opinion. However, if you have two applicants (1 is a non-disadvantaged black guy and 1 is a 100% white american who IS disadvantaged raised in a rural area) - who do you think would be more likely to work in a disadvantaged area?

Edit: my second question's answer is why I don't see why you necessarily NEED to have a select number of black applicants or blue applicants or white applicants or any specific "race" of applicant.

 

[Lacheln]

It was an exaggerated theoretical example and anyone with any 2-sense would understand what I was getting at. The last time I checked, if adcoms screened gpa's, they would be acting as "automatons", and thus, individuals from lower economic backgrounds would not be "divined" diversity. Also, racial issues are no laughing matter, but I'm sorry you feel the way you do.

So what exactly were you getting at? And with all your air quotes in this response, I feel like you don't understand the vocabulary I was using, but I don't want to assume that. I can't really figure out what you are trying to say.

 

[strongboy2005]

The other issue is that these "URM's" are the ones who are going back and serving our community. I was speaking to someone at a UC med school and I was telling her that it is a never ending cycle. People say they are going to serve my community and then they get into med school and of course they never do what they said they were going to do. So in the end my community gets cheated and it sucks and it is painful to see and experience.

You live in one of the densest physician/population ratio areas of the world, and you think your community has low access to health care?

Sorry, I just don't buy it. There are rural counties in this country that literally have just a handful of doctors. These areas are predominantly white. You think a "URM" is going to go "serve" in these areas?

To say URMs are more likely to serve the underserved is either ignorance, or blatant racism. I interpret this to mean "black people will go back and be good caring doctors, but white people are only in it for the $$".

I am white and I have a black doctor. WHO CARES WHAT COLOR YOUR SKIN IS!

 

[Lacheln]

More likely is the black applicant, in my opinion. However, if you have two applicants (1 is a non-disadvantaged black guy and 1 is a 100% white american who IS disadvantaged raised in a rural area) - who do you think would be more likely to work in a disadvantaged area?

Edit: my second question's answer is why I don't see why you necessarily NEED to have a select number of black applicants or blue applicants or white applicants or any specific "race" of applicant.

I think the black guy is more likely to go work with black people, and the rural guy is more likely to go back there. Both need to be done, so I guess the answer is only let in URM and disadvantaged applicants. (That's a joke for the humor impaired in here.)

 

[jr doctor in sd]

Thanks so much. Much love and respect for all the hard work you are putting into the same dream, bro. My cycle is not going yet. It will be most likely next year or the year after. Like I said, I had a rough first year and didn't start hitting the books hard until this past year (I am entering my third year). I gotta work on pure 4.0s from here on out. So far, it's working. But we'll see. Hopefully the motivation will last me for 2 years of grades so i can prove my academic abilities, haha. Hows your cycle goin?

You are right JR Doc. I appreciate what you want to do and I hope it all works out for you. I have no ill feelings toward you at all. We are cool. We had a discussion. I know there are good people out there who do want to serve my community. I don't have the best mcat score, but if given the opportunity to be in the class of 2013, I am going to prove all of the naysayers and statistics wrong.

How is the cycle going for you?

 

[Lacheln]

I'm going to follow the excellent example set by bd2b and jr and let it go, and go to bed. Nighty night everyone.

 

[musicalmedicine]

No sir. I was simply asking a question. Do people honestly believe that a higher mcat score means you will be a better doctor or more deserving of a medical education? Does a higher mcat score mean that you will better serve your community?

No, but there is no way that being a different race could possibly make a better doctor. Admission should be on merit EC's and interviews. Race should have no factor because it has no factor in how high your potential as a doctor will be.

 

[jr doctor in sd]

Just wanted to comment. I heard this exact conversation (or a spin-off) at my library just this past Winter quarter. At the library cramming for a midterm, and a group of hispanic frat guys were studying together. One of them apparently had a midterm that day and one of his friends was like hey why aren't you studying you are gonna mess up this test. and he responded "I have been exchanging emails with this guy from ____ med school admission committee and he told me I was a shoe in for an interview as long as I could keep my GPA between a 3.4->3.5 and I have a 3.4 right now so i'm pretty much set"

You can imagine how pissed I was sitting there with pretty much same gpa (3.25 at the time) trying hard to raise my pitiful GPA while hearing them clowning each other and relaxing.

Hahaha these threads always make me laugh because they are SO obtuse.

Just because URMs have lower stats in general, it doesn't mean that they won't try as hard. I swear to you, there was never a moment in my orgo class or in my chem class where I was like "hell, I'm going to go out partying because my mother's Colombian, so I'm golden". That would be beyond ******ed. I don't know anyone in college who did that. We all studied together, we all worked just as hard, and I never had a conversation with an Asian or Caucasian friend in which they told me they had to work harder than I did. We all did the very best we could. To say that URMs try less hard because they don't have to try as hard is preposterous and insulting. And I am not one to get easily insulted.

As for why URM stats tend to be lower, your guess is as good as mine. A lot of Hispanics are first generation, so maybe their stats are lower because their first language isn't English. Minorities also still tend to live in inner city areas where the public education isn't as great. These are all guesses, of course.

As for only considering disadvantaged status, I'd say consider my situation. I had both a disability and a LOT of family issues that affected my work. Nevertheless, I learned a language in 4 months, I got a scholarship for private high school, a scholarship for private university, and never took a Kaplan class cause hey, too expensive. Educationally, I've been as fortunate as can be. Would I count as disadvantaged, even with an all-private school education? If you're making the argument that URMs don't try hard enough, then I can certainly make the argument that people who didn't get a scholarship to better schools didn't try hard enough. You know what? I'd be putting my head up my butt. Cause that's a stupid argument.

Everyone is up in arms about the URM thing because it's the one thing you can't control. Well, tough. You can't control the fact that you were born in a caucasian/asian/whatever family. I can't control the fact that I had to learn a new language in 4 months. And no med school takes that into consideration. It is what it is. If you get in somewhere, it's cause you deserve it. If you don't, it's cause you had a bad year. It happens. There are no guarantees for anyone.

 

[BlackDr2b]

You live in one of the densest physician/population ratio areas of the world, and you think your community has low access to health care?

Sorry, I just don't buy it. There are rural counties in this country that literally have just a handful of doctors. These areas are predominantly white. You think a "URM" is going to go "serve" in these areas?

To say URMs are more likely to serve the underserved is either ignorance, or blatant racism. I interpret this to mean "black people will go back and be good caring doctors, but white people are only in it for the $$".

I am white and I have a black doctor. WHO CARES WHAT COLOR YOUR SKIN IS!

The LA you are talking about and where I live are 2 complete different areas. I live in Compton and no we don't have access. There aren't any Primary Care providers in the Compton/Watts/Willowbrook area. Just because there might be physicians in Los Angeles does not mean that we all have equal access to care. Lets be real homeboy!

I'm not trippin off of color. But the truth is, if you go to underserved areas like South Central, Compton, Watts, Willowbrook, you will see more physicians of color than white physicians! Like it or not. So there is no ignorance in my statement at all. In fact, my statement has been proven a million times.

You can take it how you want to homeboy but I am done and over it. Hope this process goes well for you bro!

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Im albino, and medical schools are asking me to accept THEM

 

[WinterLights]

Non-URM with low stats, and probably no economic disadvantage, complains about how its not fair that URMs on average have stats around his and get in. Its the same old scenario, time and time again. Maybe they should just remove URM status and hope for the best. Or maybe they should keep it until the underlying causes for URM status dissipate. Or maybe they should decrease the weight that URM status has, and increase the weight that socioeconomic status has.

There, I summed up the potential discussion; now we can all move on to the next topic.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Thanks so much. Much love and respect for all the hard work you are putting into the same dream, bro. My cycle is not going yet. It will be most likely next year or the year after. Like I said, I had a rough first year and didn't start hitting the books hard until this past year (I am entering my third year). I gotta work on pure 4.0s from here on out. So far, it's working. But we'll see. Hopefully the motivation will last me for 2 years of grades so i can prove my academic abilities, haha. Hows your cycle goin?

It's coo. I am complete at Howard(my dream school), Morehouse, Meharry, UCLA/Drew, USC and Pitt. So we shall see. Hopefully I will get some action in these next couple of weeks.

 

[ButImLETired]

Just wanted to comment. I heard this exact conversation (or a spin-off) at my library just this past Winter quarter. At the library cramming for a midterm, and a group of hispanic frat guys were studying together. One of them apparently had a midterm that day and one of his friends was like hey why aren't you studying you are gonna mess up this test. and he responded "I have been exchanging emails with this guy from ____ med school admission committee and he told me I was a shoe in for an interview as long as I could keep my GPA between a 3.4->3.5 and I have a 3.4 right now so i'm pretty much set"

You can imagine how pissed I was sitting there with pretty much same gpa (3.25 at the time) trying hard to raise my pitiful GPA while hearing them clowning each other and relaxing.

Well, I'm truly sorry that you met people like that. Those people perpetuate the stereotype that URMs get to slack off. What a nice theory. Wish I'd known it when I was spending every day in the library and having at least one all-nighter a week. I hope you realize that not all are like that, and that for that matter those jack*****es will get their just desserts when they dont get to be that idiotic in med school.
Either way, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with the app. process. I'll take the high road and wish you good luck. I'm sure you'll be fine, you seem to be committed.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Just wanted to comment. I heard this exact conversation (or a spin-off) at my library just this past Winter quarter. At the library cramming for a midterm, and a group of hispanic frat guys were studying together. One of them apparently had a midterm that day and one of his friends was like hey why aren't you studying you are gonna mess up this test. and he responded "I have been exchanging emails with this guy from ____ med school admission committee and he told me I was a shoe in for an interview as long as I could keep my GPA between a 3.4->3.5 and I have a 3.4 right now so i'm pretty much set"

You can imagine how pissed I was sitting there with pretty much same gpa (3.25 at the time) trying hard to raise my pitiful GPA while hearing them clowning each other and relaxing.

That would have anybody hot, URM or not! Nothing you can do about silly people like that. Nobody is a shoe in and we all know that. Sucks for him becuz he is setting himself up in a bad way.

 

[jr doctor in sd]

Hopefully you get some love from UCLA Drew so you can get that in-state public tuition haha...half of my fear is getting buried in debt. Family doesn't have any $ and all the $ i make is paying for undergrad.

and to LET, I know - I don't let dumb people (no matter what race) keep me down. Ive got incredible soon-to-be doctor friends that are white, mexican, black, every kind of race. Best of luck to you! hope you get in your dream schools!

It's coo. I am complete at Howard(my dream school), Morehouse, Meharry, UCLA/Drew, USC and Pitt. So we shall see. Hopefully I will get some action in these next couple of weeks.

 

[BlackDr2b]

And now back to your regularly scheduled program...................

 

[strongboy2005]

I'm not trippin off of color. But the truth is, if you go to underserved areas like South Central, Compton, Watts, Willowbrook, you will see more physicians of color than white physicians! Like it or not. So there is no ignorance in my statement at all. In fact, my statement has been proven a million times.

Your definition of underserved is ridiculously narrow. Do you really want to argue that there are more underserved blacks than there are whites?

Again, a disadvantaged white is going to be much more likely to return to his or her underserved rural community than a rich white or a minority would. So why should a rich black kid whose parents could afford to send him to Harvard get the advantage over the poor white kid who worked his butt off working 40 hours a week on top of classes at a community college?

Ultimately, people are more likely to return to what they know. A black kid from Compton is going to be MUCH more likely than a white kid from an affluent neighborhood to return to serve the underserved in predominantly-black urban areas. I know this. However, the argument still follows that the underserved white kid from rural Kansas will more than likely return to serve his underserved town.

The common denominator here is economic status. The more affluent will be less likely to serve the underserved, urban or rural. This just isn't what they're used to doing nor do they feel comfortable in it. The economically disadvantaged, however, will feel more inclined to return to where they came from and help out their communities. This is why I have no qualms with giving economically disadvantaged applicants, regardless of color, a slight advantage in the application process. We need more physicians serving the underserved!

I say, give the black kid (or Mexican, or white, or Asian) from Compton a fighting chance to get a medical education! If that is truly an underserved area (which I don't doubt), we need more physicians willing to go there to practice!

However, why shouldn't a white kid from a rural underserved county have the same opportunity and advantage?