Which would you choose and why: CCLCM vs HMS?

[georgeag]

I had made plans to matriculate at CCLCM, but HMS acceptance came in and brought the daunting: choosing between these two programs.

CCLCM
pros:
1. Enjoyed my interview visit at CCLCM and developed a feeling that the environment would be supportive for my interest in academic medicine/research.
2. Full tuition/fees scholarship
3. Significant other (SO) found a school 1 hour away
4. Attracted to PBL/portfolio system/less stress

cons:
1. Have to move
2. Did not seem to emphasize global health programs (i.e. relative to HMS), and I would like to explore global health during my training
3. Possibly 30k/yr loans for living expenses

HMS
pros:
1. New curriculum seems innovative: becoming PBL-heavy, early clinical rotation (2nd sem. in year II), almost entire 4th year for self-customized advanced study.
2. Required research/scholastic project, which could be in almost anything (basic science, translational, clinical, public health, policy, global health). May provide similar research experience as CCLCM would.
3. I live 10-15 mins away. No need to move.
4. My SO seems to want me to go there.
5. Might get some scholarship to defray cost.

cons:
1. Brand new curriculum may not be as smooth as CCLCM's may be.
2. Have to deal with a "longer-distance" relationship. (Boston to Cleveland)
3. May cost >40k/yr (unit loan + my EFC)

I would appreciate opinions from all, especially current students who may have first-hand experiences that might calm or affirm my concerns. Thank you!

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[tenniseagle92]

So full disclosure: I'm on the waitlist at HMS. That said, my opinion would be pretty much the same either way. I also live in Boston, and HMS' location doesn't really intrigue me (Longwood, as I'm sure you know, isn't very exciting...and the green line is abysmal). The new curriculum also could go any number of ways (including a good way), but it's pretty impossible to predict.

For me, choosing between two elite schools comes down to one thing: overall happiness. If debt is something you'd rather avoid and your S/O is important to you (meaning not someone you've been seeing for a short period of time), I would say go CCLCM. It is an amazing institution, and one of my biggest regrets of the cycle is not applying there. The 5-year curriculum is awesome, and you'll graduate with ample publications, little debt, and possibly a still-solid relationship.

If your S/O would rather you go to Harvard than be with him/her in Cleveland, then maybe that's less of a factor...I just think having minimal debt and a support system near school would be great. Those are the two factors I'm weighing most heavily in my decision moving forward. Just my two cents!

 

[GoPelicans]

Harvard is the best medical school in the world, you would be an idiot to turn that down. Fun fact: curriculum does. not. matter. You will be teaching yourself 95% of what you need to know no matter what medical school you go to. Reputations and location is all that matters in a medical school, and for both you can't do better than Harvard.

 

[resiroth]

A lot of people here will scream about Harvard, but it's not like it's Mars. It's a medical school. It has a lot of research dollars...that's why it is ranked so well.

One thing sticks out to me: 30k a year seems like a really darn liberal estimate for CCLCM (it would likely be MUCH cheaper), but I would wait until you have the full scholarship/aid information from Harvard as you may get significant aid.

A significant con of Harvard: they're switching to a 1-year curriculum, and worse still it's the first year so there will be a "crunch" of sorts. In any case this is a non-trivial disadvantage, and honestly from what I've heard from students at Vanderbilt 1 year pre-clinical is just crazy. Carefully weigh whether this option is right for you. When people say pre-clinical "doesn't matter" they're correct to some extent in terms of quality of teaching etc. because there is a lot of material you self-study, but 1 year is a pretty damn intense schedule, and the fact it's the first year they're doing it would make me weary. So 2-year systems vs 2-year traditional? Block vs non-block? Yeah, those don't matter all that much...first year of 2x speed med school? Well, it would be an adventure that's for sure. If someone says 1 year pre-clinical at Harvard is totally not going to be stressful they're kidding themselves. Will it make you a better doc? Maybe. Maybe not.

If it sounds like I'm saying to go to CCLCM I'm not, I just wanted to counteract the flood of "But Harvard!!!" that you'll get on this thread. Most of these people dreamed about going to Harvard but couldn't really tell you why, it's just a prestige thing. Evaluate these schools without regard to their "reputation", as CCLCM has a huge rep too and people from below the top 50 match at MGH, if that's your aspiration in life.

Let's be honest, SDN is pretty neurotic, and these people would go to Harvard if it were in Gary, Indiana.
In the end both of these schools will not limit your career in any way. Choose based on fit, and unfortunately only you can answer that.

I have no advantage to be gained swaying you one way or another.

Finally only on SDN would someone "be an idiot" to choose one top school over another top school because the rejected school has a higher rank by a magazine lol. They're very different programs, very different environments/locations, pretty much the least different thing about them is their strength in academics ironically enough.

If I had to choose myself I would say CCLCM because it never hurts to have less debt, I'm a bit nervous about Harvard's pre-clinical + I enjoy doing research... while I think Harvard has as many opportunities the professors I've met there seemed less interested in mentoring/training. Again just my vague impression, and I'm sure that you'd do well at either institution. If Harvard had established the 1 yr curriculum for 4 years (no "crunch/hybrid") I'd feel more confident in it and might choose Harvard, or if Harvard hadn't switched curriculums at all. You have a wonderful conundrum on your hands . Above all else, go where you'll be happy (be it at Harvard or CCLCM). This is 4% of our lives (if we're fortunate) after all.

 

[justadream]

A lot of people here will scream about Harvard, but it's not like it's Mars. It's a medical school. It has a lot of research dollars...that's why it is ranked so well.

One thing sticks out to me: 30k a year seems like a really darn liberal estimate for CCLCM (it would likely be MUCH cheaper), but I would wait until you have the full scholarship/aid information from Harvard as you may get significant aid.

A significant con of Harvard: they're switching to a 1-year curriculum, and worse still it's the first year so there will be a "crunch" of sorts. In any case this is a non-trivial disadvantage, and honestly from what I've heard from students at Vanderbilt 1 year pre-clinical is just crazy. Carefully weigh whether this option is right for you. When people say pre-clinical "doesn't matter" they're correct to some extent in terms of quality of teaching etc. because there is a lot of material you self-study, but 1 year is a pretty damn intense schedule, and the fact it's the first year they're doing it would make me weary. So 2-year systems vs 2-year traditional? Block vs non-block? Yeah, those don't matter all that much...first year of 2x speed med school? Well, it would be an adventure that's for sure. If someone says 1 year pre-clinical at Harvard is totally not going to be stressful they're kidding themselves. Will it make you a better doc? Maybe. Maybe not.

If it sounds like I'm saying to go to CCLCM I'm not, I just wanted to counteract the flood of "But Harvard!!!" that you'll get on this thread. Most of these people dreamed about going to Harvard but couldn't really tell you why, it's just a prestige thing. Evaluate these schools without regard to their "reputation", as CCLCM has a huge rep too and people from below the top 50 match at MGH, if that's your aspiration in life.

Let's be honest, SDN is pretty neurotic, and these people would go to Harvard if it were in Gary, Indiana.
In the end both of these schools will not limit your career in any way. Choose based on fit, and unfortunately only you can answer that.

I have no advantage to be gained swaying you one way or another.

Finally only on SDN would someone "be an idiot" to choose one top school over another top school because the rejected school has a higher rank by a magazine lol. They're very different programs, very different environments/locations, pretty much the least different thing about them is their strength in academics ironically enough.

If I had to choose myself I would say CCLCM because it never hurts to have less debt, I'm a bit nervous about Harvard's pre-clinical + I enjoy doing research... while I think Harvard has as many opportunities the professors I've met there seemed less interested in mentoring/training. Again just my vague impression, and I'm sure that you'd do well at either institution. If Harvard had established the 1 yr curriculum for 4 years (no "crunch/hybrid") I'd feel more confident in it and might choose Harvard, or if Harvard hadn't switched curriculums at all. You have a wonderful conundrum on your hands . Above all else, go where you'll be happy (be it at Harvard or CCLCM). This is 4% of our lives (if we're fortunate) after all.

I'm one of those who would go to Harvard if it were in Antarctica lol.

But something that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that I think CCLCM is a 5 year program. Some might say you are losing a year of attending salary with that. I'm not sure how important (or not) that is to you and/or to the financial calculations you should think about.

 

[resiroth]

I'm one of those who would go to Harvard if it were in Antarctica lol.

But something that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that I think CCLCM is a 5 year program. Some might say you are losing a year of attending salary with that. I'm not sure how important (or not) that is to you and/or to the financial calculations you should think about.

I said that because once upon a time I was the same way (Pre-interviews) .

The 5th year does matter, although with 7% loans being the norm avoiding the debt you come out ahead. After 4 years of residency your loans from med school are ~50% higher than the principal. If Harvard ends up being 40k*4 = 160k *1.5 = 240k. That's 400k income pre-tax in california. Definitely not trivial. 80k loans at CCLCM ends up being 120k, much more manageable.

In the end I think the 5th year is financially advantageous at CCLCM unless you're doing surgery in which case it's ~ equal.

Keep in mind while I doubt it's as doom and gloom as some people say, I wouldn't be surprised to see physician salaries decline more a decade from now, or you could be one of the unfortunate folks that matched into something competitive (radiology) which then all of a sudden turned out to be not exactly ideal for the whole...having a job...thing...yeah...

 

[tenniseagle92]

A lot of people here will scream about Harvard, but it's not like it's Mars. It's a medical school. It has a lot of research dollars...that's why it is ranked so well.

One thing sticks out to me: 30k a year seems like a really darn liberal estimate for CCLCM (it would likely be MUCH cheaper), but I would wait until you have the full scholarship/aid information from Harvard as you may get significant aid.

A significant con of Harvard: they're switching to a 1-year curriculum, and worse still it's the first year so there will be a "crunch" of sorts. In any case this is a non-trivial disadvantage, and honestly from what I've heard from students at Vanderbilt 1 year pre-clinical is just crazy. Carefully weigh whether this option is right for you. When people say pre-clinical "doesn't matter" they're correct to some extent in terms of quality of teaching etc. because there is a lot of material you self-study, but 1 year is a pretty damn intense schedule, and the fact it's the first year they're doing it would make me weary. So 2-year systems vs 2-year traditional? Block vs non-block? Yeah, those don't matter all that much...first year of 2x speed med school? Well, it would be an adventure that's for sure. If someone says 1 year pre-clinical at Harvard is totally not going to be stressful they're kidding themselves. Will it make you a better doc? Maybe. Maybe not.

If it sounds like I'm saying to go to CCLCM I'm not, I just wanted to counteract the flood of "But Harvard!!!" that you'll get on this thread. Most of these people dreamed about going to Harvard but couldn't really tell you why, it's just a prestige thing. Evaluate these schools without regard to their "reputation", as CCLCM has a huge rep too and people from below the top 50 match at MGH, if that's your aspiration in life.

Let's be honest, SDN is pretty neurotic, and these people would go to Harvard if it were in Gary, Indiana.
In the end both of these schools will not limit your career in any way. Choose based on fit, and unfortunately only you can answer that.

I have no advantage to be gained swaying you one way or another.

Finally only on SDN would someone "be an idiot" to choose one top school over another top school because the rejected school has a higher rank by a magazine lol. They're very different programs, very different environments/locations, pretty much the least different thing about them is their strength in academics ironically enough.

If I had to choose myself I would say CCLCM because it never hurts to have less debt, I'm a bit nervous about Harvard's pre-clinical + I enjoy doing research... while I think Harvard has as many opportunities the professors I've met there seemed less interested in mentoring/training. Again just my vague impression, and I'm sure that you'd do well at either institution. If Harvard had established the 1 yr curriculum for 4 years (no "crunch/hybrid") I'd feel more confident in it and might choose Harvard, or if Harvard hadn't switched curriculums at all. You have a wonderful conundrum on your hands . Above all else, go where you'll be happy (be it at Harvard or CCLCM). This is 4% of our lives (if we're fortunate) after all.

I agree. SDN has this "dude it's HARVARD" culture, which honestly is not at all healthy. Look at CCLCM's match list...it's awesome, as is Harvard's. My mentor (who went to HMS) has been telling me all cycle to pick the school I'd be happiest at overall, because harvard is just another great school...at a certain level it really does not matter.

I would absolutely pick S/O and much less debt, but maybe wait to see Harvard's financial aid??

 

[breakintheroof]

Many congratulations on your choices, @georgeag. From your description of the pros and cons (and thank you for laying those out), both sound like excellent places for you.

Here are the issues, based on your post:

• Significant other. Said to "want" you to go to Harvard...my suspicion, without knowing you or your SO, is that he/she just doesn't want you to turn down something you may want on his/her behalf. Where do you see your relationship going? And how much happier would you be if you had a much easier time seeing each other?
• Finances. I suspect you're overestimating the cost of living in Cleveland at $30K+/year, but @resiroth is lowballing it at $16K/year ($80K/five years). I'd ask students there if you can. Much will depend on HMS' financial aid here, and unfortunately their unit loan is high at $33,050.
• Location. You know Boston. How excited are you about Cleveland? (Not a rhetorical question from this Midwesterner.)
• Opportunities. I don't know that much about CCLCM, but it does seem like a great program for starting an academic career. HMS' track record in doing that is as good as anybody's. Your interest in global health definitely points toward HMS.
• Curriculum. I share your concerns over the drastic curriculum overhaul at HMS. There is risk built into that for the first class to go through it, and I am just not sure how to assess the risk. Will you be at Revisit?

Other things to consider might be: Your potential classmates (especially the other 31 at CCLCM); clinical rotations; grading & evaluation; dual degrees.

Good luck, in any case! I can't see you going wrong. (And whatever you decide, someone's day will be made when they come off the waitlist at the one you don't choose!)

 

[HeLaDeala]

Most people are thinking this, so I'll just say it:

I don't think SDN has a "dude its harvard" complex. I think the entire world has a "dude its harvard" complex. If you decide to go into healthcare administration or policy, or any single field outside of research and practice medicine, the Harvard MD will take you straight to the top. It shows that regardless of discipline, you've got what it takes to get into what might be the most selective and top-notch educational program in the world. In medical practice or research, CCLCM may be on equal footing, but Harvard beats it everywhere else, hands down.

Also, I don't know about you, but if I chose CCLCM over Harvard, I'd always wonder what if. I made a similar move for undergrad and you can never get rid of the what-if, no matter how hard you try or how great an experience you have.

 

[snowflakes]

What are your thoughts about CCLCM's small class size? Some people will love that type of setting and some people want to be a much larger setting.

 

[resiroth]

Most people are thinking this, so I'll just say it:

I don't think SDN has a "dude its harvard" complex. I think the entire world has a "dude its harvard" complex. If you decide to go into healthcare administration or policy, or any single field outside of research and practice medicine, the Harvard MD will take you straight to the top. It shows that regardless of discipline, you've got what it takes to get into what might be the most selective and top-notch educational program in the world. In medical practice or research, CCLCM may be on equal footing, but Harvard beats it everywhere else, hands down.

Also, I don't know about you, but if I chose CCLCM over Harvard, I'd always wonder what if. I made a similar move for undergrad and you can never get rid of the what-if, no matter how hard you try or how great an experience you have.

You would be surprised. In academia there really isn't a "dude, it's Harvard" mentality. There's a "dude, wonderfully written nature publication" mentality.
In terms of random prestige factor how many times have you asked your dr where he went to medical school?

If someone is concerned about prestige I can tell you a neurosurgeon from a random state medical school commands an order of magnitude more respect than a pediatrician from Harvard.

The three A's come to mind: available affable affordable. That's all that patients care about.

As for the what if mentality: yeah that exists, regardless of which one you choose unfortunately. Maybe he has poor mentors at Harvard, maybe he wonders if he would have a wife by now if they hadn't broken up their relationship. Conversely: what if harvard was the place that had that lab that he would make a grand discovery at?

Simple truth is you always wonder, but in this case I think both paths are great.

In the end OP needs to determine the final cost for each school (Harvard may be less than he thinks), how much risk tolerance he has for the new curriculum at Harvard (1 year is no joke) and where he thinks this relationship with his SO is heading. I agree that if OP has a more than passing interest in health policy Harvard may serve him better in that respect, but should only be considered if he feels like he actually is going to do an MPH and pursue a career in that for ex. not just join an interest club.

I think if you choose based on feel OP you'll be well-served, whether that's at Harvard or CCLCM. You honestly can't go wrong.

 

[resiroth]

What are your thoughts about CCLCM's small class size? Some people will love that type of setting and some people want to be a much larger setting.

Another excellent point. Unfortunately making a poll on SDN is basically "which one ranks higher in research" but these schools are extremely different and warrant careful consideration.

 

[HeLaDeala]

You would be surprised. In academia there really isn't a "dude, it's Harvard" mentality. There's a "dude, wonderfully written nature publication" mentality.
In terms of random prestige factor how many times have you asked your dr where he went to medical school?

If someone is concerned about prestige I can tell you a neurosurgeon from a random state medical school commands an order of magnitude more respect than a pediatrician from Harvard.

The three A's come to mind: available affable affordable. That's all that patients care about.

As for the what if mentality: yeah that exists, regardless of which one you choose unfortunately. Maybe he has poor mentors at Harvard, maybe he wonders if he would have a wife by now if they hadn't broken up their relationship. Conversely: what if harvard was the place that had that lab that he would make a grand discovery at?

Simple truth is you always wonder, but in this case I think both paths are great.

In the end OP needs to determine the final cost for each school (Harvard may be less than he thinks), how much risk tolerance he has for the new curriculum at Harvard (1 year is no joke) and where he thinks this relationship with his SO is heading. I agree that if OP has a more than passing interest in health policy Harvard may serve him better in that respect, but should only be considered if he feels like he actually is going to do an MPH and pursue a career in that for ex. not just join an interest club.

I think if you choose based on feel OP you'll be well-served, whether that's at Harvard or CCLCM. You honestly can't go wrong.

All of those are awesome points. I concede! I concede!

 

[georgeag]

What are your thoughts about CCLCM's small class size? Some people will love that type of setting and some people want to be a much larger setting.

I really do not have a strict preference for either. I believe each setting has its pros and cons, and it may boil down to my personal motivation to make the most out of either. So, I have not really weighed this aspect into consideration.

 

[Psai]

I had made plans to matriculate at CCLCM, but HMS acceptance came in and brought the daunting: choosing between these two programs.

CCLCM
pros:
1. it's cleveland clinic
2. Full tuition/fees scholarship
3. Enjoyed my interview visit at CCLCM and developed a feeling that the environment would be supportive for my interest in academic medicine/research.
4. Significant other (SO) found a school 1 hour away
5. Attracted to PBL/portfolio system/less stress

cons:
1. Have to move
2. Did not seem to emphasize global health programs (i.e. relative to HMS), and I would like to explore global health during my training
3. Possibly 30k/yr loans for living expenses

HMS
pros:
1. it's harvard
2. I live 10-15 mins away. No need to move.
3. early clinical rotation (2nd sem. in year II), almost entire 4th year for self-customized advanced study.

cons:
1. Brand new curriculum may not be as smooth as CCLCM's may be, becoming PBL-heavy
2. May cost >40k/yr (unit loan + my EFC)
3. Have to deal with a "longer-distance" relationship. (Boston to Cleveland)
4. Required research/scholastic project, which could be in almost anything (basic science, translational, clinical, public health, policy, global health). May provide similar research experience as CCLCM would.

I would appreciate opinions from all, especially current students who may have first-hand experiences that might calm or affirm my concerns. Thank you!

global health? not a big concern. plenty of sick people in america unless you're angling to be the next paul farmer. everyone and their mothers cares about global health and the underserved when they start medical school. i have only met one person so far who has actually walked the walk and is a resident on a rural track for family medicine.

curriculum? innovation is bad in the short term with many mistakes and things to iron out before it starts going smoothly. being in the inaugural class isn't the greatest as you're basically guinea pigs. i think a 1.5 year curriculum is better because it gives you time to explore electives, get letters, do aways but 1 year is too short in my opinion. pbl sucks though, i'd rather listen to lectures at 2.0x speed from the comfort of my home than listen to my uninformed classmates try to teach their classmates about things that we could learn more efficiently and quickly at home. either way, it doesn't really matter and both of your schools have it

what your SO thinks matters but don't let it affect your opinion unless you're married. what matters is what you want to do and how you want to do it. there's no guarantees in life and you don't want to end up somewhere you didn't want to be because of someone who didn't even stay with you. lots of people break up in medical school because of the huge time commitment which other people just don't understand. there are those people who can study for 2 hours a day and be fine or just cram before exams but most people have to put their nose to the grindstone.

in 4th year, a lot of people are tired and don't want to go through much more stress after third year. some people choose to do a lot of work, some people fill it up with bs electives after they interview. it's up to you.

people in residency don't seem to like the portfolio system. when you have hundreds of applications to look at, it's a lot easier to compare by just looking at numbers rather than having to wade through a bunch of paragraphs about what a special flower you are. may not be a pro

you're overestimating the cost of living in cleveland and underestimating the cost of going to harvard

cleveland clinic also has had recent legal problems with students

if i were you, i'd go to harvard

 

[CC_alumnus]

I am a Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine alumnus.


Getting Google alerts about the school occasionally sends me to this forum (which was very helpful for me during my medical school application process many years ago) and I'll skim the threads that pertain to CCLCM. What I'm always surprised by is the emphasis that applicants place on the full merit scholarship that accompanies acceptance.


Hopefully I don’t come off as patronizing when I offer some unrequited advice on choosing a medical school, particularly as it pertains to CCLCM.


First, there is way too much focus on money. As a resident, I completely understand the crunch of finances and also am wholly familiar with loan interest capitalization. But, the idea that you should choose a medical school based on financial incentives is foolish. If you are equally torn between schools, it can be very helpful. Or, if your goals are very distinct and directed toward quick completion with minimal turbulence. In that case, the lower the tuition the better. But otherwise? Choose where you will be happiest. Life is too short, residency is too hard, and your happiness is too important.


Medical school occurs during a formative period in your life and where you go to medical school sets off a cascade of life events that will determine (for many people) the specialty you choose, the career you desire, and your lifelong friends. Do NOT make a decision based on a few hundred thousand dollars if it means you will be any measure less happy once you make that more frugal or “safe” decision. Also, an extra year in earning potential does not matter. Not an iota, as it compares to the rest of your life- or at least that’s what it feels like now. The concept of weighing a hypothetical year of income against a year of experiential unknowns is both as unromantic and unappealing as it sounds when you consider the length of the average physician career. You’re never going to look back and think “I wish I had netted another year of salary”- life just does not work that way. You should be interested in an extra academic year because it affords you the chance for the first time in a long time (and what will be a long time thereafter) to intellectually explore an academic or personal pursuit without other pressing obligations or the relentless regiment of a ticking clock. As I tell incoming residency applicants, you need to find the place you will be happiest every day, not the most prestigious or where your faculty advisor thinks is the most flattering. Very few people can function at a high level when they are unhappy.


There are a lot of components of medical schools that applicants focus on that again, from my perspective are inconsequential when taken out of context. Learning styles, lecture vs. PBL, parking, etc. These are only important in aggregate, when you debate whether or not the general educational focus of the school fits your personality and goals.


To that end, do not attend the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine because it is less expensive. Furthermore, do not attend the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine unless you truly have a sense that academic medicine is somehow in your future. It is otherwise a waste of your time, the school’s time, and your classmate’s time. There is no way that you’re going to be happy when you’re just trying to learn the cardiac cycle and instead of answering questions that prepare you for boards (like at other schools) you are being asked to prepare a mock three-armed randomized trial that builds on the results from a Cell 2008 paper on cardiac myosin, or whatever. Going through these academic exercises without the desire to be a functioning physician-investigator in the future will not endear you to research, it will drive you away.


Many of my classmates had to make the decision between places like CCLCM and JHH, HMS, etc and I don’t know exactly how each of them felt at the end of the 5 years. What I do know is that people who started out interested in academics were on the whole happier during their time than those who were on the fence about it.

As someone who is now glimpsing the end of a long residency, I’m going to continue being a researcher and a surgeon. And in that regard I am exceptionally happy with the education I received at Cleveland Clinic. I look back incredibly fondly and I have no doubt that I received world-class training. But I don’t know what my path would have been at a different school, and no really has that capability. What I do know is that I attended the school I thought would make me the happiest, and luckily I was right. I encourage you to do the same.

I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Australopithekus]

I am a Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine alumnus.


Getting Google alerts about the school occasionally sends me to this forum (which was very helpful for me during my medical school application process many years ago) and I'll skim the threads that pertain to CCLCM. What I'm always surprised by is the emphasis that applicants place on the full merit scholarship that accompanies acceptance.


Hopefully I don’t come off as patronizing when I offer some unrequited advice on choosing a medical school, particularly as it pertains to CCLCM.


First, there is way too much focus on money. As a resident, I completely understand the crunch of finances and also am wholly familiar with loan interest capitalization. But, the idea that you should choose a medical school based on financial incentives is foolish. If you are equally torn between schools, it can be very helpful. Or, if your goals are very distinct and directed toward quick completion with minimal turbulence. In that case, the lower the tuition the better. But otherwise? Choose where you will be happiest. Life is too short, residency is too hard, and your happiness is too important.


Medical school occurs during a formative period in your life and where you go to medical school sets off a cascade of life events that will determine (for many people) the specialty you choose, the career you desire, and your lifelong friends. Do NOT make a decision based on a few hundred thousand dollars if it means you will be any measure less happy once you make that more frugal or “safe” decision. Also, an extra year in earning potential does not matter. Not an iota, as it compares to the rest of your life- or at least that’s what it feels like now. The concept of weighing a hypothetical year of income against a year of experiential unknowns is both as unromantic and unappealing as it sounds when you consider the length of the average physician career. You’re never going to look back and think “I wish I had netted another year of salary”- life just does not work that way. You should be interested in an extra academic year because it affords you the chance for the first time in a long time (and what will be a long time thereafter) to intellectually explore an academic or personal pursuit without other pressing obligations or the relentless regiment of a ticking clock. As I tell incoming residency applicants, you need to find the place you will be happiest every day, not the most prestigious or where your faculty advisor thinks is the most flattering. Very few people can function at a high level when they are unhappy.


There are a lot of components of medical schools that applicants focus on that again, from my perspective are inconsequential when taken out of context. Learning styles, lecture vs. PBL, parking, etc. These are only important in aggregate, when you debate whether or not the general educational focus of the school fits your personality and goals.


To that end, do not attend the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine because it is less expensive. Furthermore, do not attend the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine unless you truly have a sense that academic medicine is somehow in your future. It is otherwise a waste of your time, the school’s time, and your classmate’s time. There is no way that you’re going to be happy when you’re just trying to learn the cardiac cycle and instead of answering questions that prepare you for boards (like at other schools) you are being asked to prepare a mock three-armed randomized trial that builds on the results from a Cell 2008 paper on cardiac myosin, or whatever. Going through these academic exercises without the desire to be a functioning physician-investigator in the future will not endear you to research, it will drive you away.


Many of my classmates had to make the decision between places like CCLCM and JHH, HMS, etc and I don’t know exactly how each of them felt at the end of the 5 years. What I do know is that people who started out interested in academics were on the whole happier during their time than those who were on the fence about it.

As someone who is now glimpsing the end of a long residency, I’m going to continue being a researcher and a surgeon. And in that regard I am exceptionally happy with the education I received at Cleveland Clinic. I look back incredibly fondly and I have no doubt that I received world-class training. But I don’t know what my path would have been at a different school, and no really has that capability. What I do know is that I attended the school I thought would make me the happiest, and luckily I was right. I encourage you to do the same.

I wish you the best of luck.

*drops the mic & walks away.

 

[Copernicium]

I am a Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine alumnus.


Getting Google alerts about the school occasionally sends me to this forum (which was very helpful for me during my medical school application process many years ago) and I'll skim the threads that pertain to CCLCM. What I'm always surprised by is the emphasis that applicants place on the full merit scholarship that accompanies acceptance.


Hopefully I don’t come off as patronizing when I offer some unrequited advice on choosing a medical school, particularly as it pertains to CCLCM.


First, there is way too much focus on money. As a resident, I completely understand the crunch of finances and also am wholly familiar with loan interest capitalization. But, the idea that you should choose a medical school based on financial incentives is foolish. If you are equally torn between schools, it can be very helpful. Or, if your goals are very distinct and directed toward quick completion with minimal turbulence. In that case, the lower the tuition the better. But otherwise? Choose where you will be happiest. Life is too short, residency is too hard, and your happiness is too important.


Medical school occurs during a formative period in your life and where you go to medical school sets off a cascade of life events that will determine (for many people) the specialty you choose, the career you desire, and your lifelong friends. Do NOT make a decision based on a few hundred thousand dollars if it means you will be any measure less happy once you make that more frugal or “safe” decision. Also, an extra year in earning potential does not matter. Not an iota, as it compares to the rest of your life- or at least that’s what it feels like now. The concept of weighing a hypothetical year of income against a year of experiential unknowns is both as unromantic and unappealing as it sounds when you consider the length of the average physician career. You’re never going to look back and think “I wish I had netted another year of salary”- life just does not work that way. You should be interested in an extra academic year because it affords you the chance for the first time in a long time (and what will be a long time thereafter) to intellectually explore an academic or personal pursuit without other pressing obligations or the relentless regiment of a ticking clock. As I tell incoming residency applicants, you need to find the place you will be happiest every day, not the most prestigious or where your faculty advisor thinks is the most flattering. Very few people can function at a high level when they are unhappy.


There are a lot of components of medical schools that applicants focus on that again, from my perspective are inconsequential when taken out of context. Learning styles, lecture vs. PBL, parking, etc. These are only important in aggregate, when you debate whether or not the general educational focus of the school fits your personality and goals.


To that end, do not attend the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine because it is less expensive. Furthermore, do not attend the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine unless you truly have a sense that academic medicine is somehow in your future. It is otherwise a waste of your time, the school’s time, and your classmate’s time. There is no way that you’re going to be happy when you’re just trying to learn the cardiac cycle and instead of answering questions that prepare you for boards (like at other schools) you are being asked to prepare a mock three-armed randomized trial that builds on the results from a Cell 2008 paper on cardiac myosin, or whatever. Going through these academic exercises without the desire to be a functioning physician-investigator in the future will not endear you to research, it will drive you away.


Many of my classmates had to make the decision between places like CCLCM and JHH, HMS, etc and I don’t know exactly how each of them felt at the end of the 5 years. What I do know is that people who started out interested in academics were on the whole happier during their time than those who were on the fence about it.

As someone who is now glimpsing the end of a long residency, I’m going to continue being a researcher and a surgeon. And in that regard I am exceptionally happy with the education I received at Cleveland Clinic. I look back incredibly fondly and I have no doubt that I received world-class training. But I don’t know what my path would have been at a different school, and no really has that capability. What I do know is that I attended the school I thought would make me the happiest, and luckily I was right. I encourage you to do the same.

I wish you the best of luck.