Which specialty allows you to have a more balanced life?

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what about pay and job market? (or does that fall under lifestyle)

Job market and pay are going to depend on ED docs refusing to become cogs in the wheels of CMGs (contract management groups) that skim money off the top to pay for useless quality measures and even more useless CEOs. This is probably true in many specialties. Don't become a cog, fight for freedom and independence. Start learning about this stuff now.

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The bold is the problem, not that 1 month is not enough time to figure it out like others are suggesting. You have plenty of time to reflect on this and speak with EM docs in their 40's and 50's while you rotate. And after all the whining and tears shed for working that night shift on christmas eve, you're still working far fewer hours than most fields in medicine.

The ED docs at one of our hospitals work 3 12 hr shifts per week. There are things to whine about in EM, but lifestyle isn't one of them.

You can say it over and over again, but it still doesn't make it any more realistic. The fact of the matter is one month is not enough time to understand how your body reacts to constantly changing your sleep cycle for 30 years. Sure, some love it. But for the majority, anything that requires such flipping of hours is in no way, shape, or form a lifestyle specialty, no matter how many 12 hour shifts you put in a week.
 
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You think you can predict how America is going to be 20 years from now? When you are 45 or 55 you can get your night shifts stacked take a week off and do the rest of your shifts or work 6 shifts a month and make the same amount as a pediatrician. You deal with this stuff all the time and its not like regular doctors get a sound sleep. Even pediatricians get woken up at odd hours of the night and they have to work the next day. The staffing at night means that you can work from hospital to hospital. Only a day off between your night and day shifts? Where are you working? Keep in mind doctors in other fields sometimes have to stay very late and get back in the morning early. OBGYN, Cards, CC, Neonatology, Surgery, Ortho, Peds, IM, Anes, True primary care and Rads work nights and call. It is all relative.

Or you can do urgent care and not deal with the stresses of primary care.
The point is, there are fields that offer far better long-term lifestyle options. Outpatient pediatricians that make the amount an ED doc working 6 shifts a month makes aren't the ones taking call at odd hours of the night. And OBGYN, cards, CC, neo, surg, and anesthesia (usually) are not lifestyle fields. Outpatient peds (most pediatricians), the vast majority of PCPs, and most radiologists I've known don't take call.

If you want lifestyle, ophtho, derm, A&I, PM&R, psych, and plastics can net you zero nights, a flexible schedule, >200k a year, never working weekends, and never having to take call. Also, far lower burnout, and far greater job satisfaction. EM is not a lifestyle field, it's a middle-of-the-road specialty in just about every respect. I'm convinced the only reason people go into it is it's a sexy field without the hour requirements of the other sexy fields- they're not looking for lifestyle, they're looking for the hero factor with as little of a time commitment as possible.
 
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The point is, there are fields that offer far better long-term lifestyle options. Outpatient pediatricians that make the amount an ED doc working 6 shifts a month makes aren't the ones taking call at odd hours of the night. And OBGYN, cards, CC, neo, surg, and anesthesia (usually) are not lifestyle fields. Outpatient peds (most pediatricians), the vast majority of PCPs, and most radiologists I've known don't take call.

If you want lifestyle, ophtho, derm, A&I, PM&R, psych, and plastics can net you zero nights, a flexible schedule, >200k a year, never working weekends, and never having to take call. Also, far lower burnout, and far greater job satisfaction. EM is not a lifestyle field, it's a middle-of-the-road specialty in just about every respect. I'm convinced the only reason people go into it is it's a sexy field without the hour requirements of the other sexy fields- they're not looking for lifestyle, they're looking for the hero factor with as little of a time commitment as possible.

this guy gets it but I heard PM&R is not as great as some make it out to be. Ophtho and derm are definitely lifestyle specialties but it rivals or exceeds oral surgery residency in terms of competitiveness. Makes sense though, work hard, get rewarded hard.
 
this guy gets it but I heard PM&R is not as great as some make it out to be. Ophtho and derm are definitely lifestyle specialties but it rivals or exceeds oral surgery residency in terms of competitiveness. Makes sense though, work hard, get rewarded hard.
PM&R is awesome. I've never met a physiatrist who didn't absolutely love his/ her field and what they do. Plus, they have a solid amount of different fellowships people can go into it if they want.

As someone who has disabled friends/ family members it's something that I'm highly interested in.
 
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Unless we're parsing the difference between "call" and nightfloat, this is crazy talk.
Everywhere around here they have specific guys hired to work nights or a teleradiology company to do prelim reads so they don't have to do night float. I don't think there's a single place outside of the two big academic centers where the day radiologists take call that I've heard of.
 
PM&R is awesome. I've never met a physiatrist who didn't absolutely love his/ her field and what they do. Plus, they have a solid amount of different fellowships people can go into it if they want.

As someone who has disabled friends/ family members it's something that I'm highly interested in.

so why isnt it more well known/loved by med school students? I know everyone has a niche that they like but its always seems difficult for people to say what is a lifestyle specialty.

Not a knock on PM&R btw, my best friend is a PM&R but says his job in San Diego is not as great as he had hoped. Not sure if its his expectations or ****ty work environment that made him say that.

also Nien Nunb is the best co-pilot in the galaxy, even better than Chewbacca
 
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Everywhere around here they have specific guys hired to work nights or a teleradiology company to do prelim reads so they don't have to do night float. I don't think there's a single place outside of the two big academic centers where the day radiologists take call that I've heard of.

Right, but that's a zero sum game. For every few radiologists who take no call, there is at least one who has completely upended their natural circadian rhythms in order to work exclusively at night. In the context of a discussion about specialty lifestyle, it's a misleading to lump radiologists in with people who don't take call. Radiology is a 24/7/365 field nowadays and those studies rarely sit around until the sun is up to get interpreted, which isn't to say that radiology can't be a lifestyle field.
 
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so why isnt it more well known/loved by med school students? I know everyone has a niche that they like but its always seems difficult for people to say what is a lifestyle specialty.

Not a knock on PM&R btw, my best friend is a PM&R but says his job in San Diego is not as great as he had hoped. Not sure if its his expectations or ****ty work environment that made him say that.
Good Q. I think you answered your own question, though-- it's not well known. I'd venture to say that the majority of med students have never even heard of it (especially in their first 2 years). Further, it's a very small field and isn't as romanticized as Surgery, EM, etc. It's not sexy and for most it doesn't have that "cool" factor, but for someone who has been around the block-- it's practical.
 
Right, but that's a zero sum game. For every few radiologists who take no call, there is at least one who has completely upended their natural circadian rhythms in order to work exclusively at night. In the context of a discussion about specialty lifestyle, it's a misleading to lump radiologists in with people who don't take call. Radiology is a 24/7/365 field nowadays and those studies rarely sit around until the sun is up to get interpreted, which isn't to say that radiology can't be a lifestyle field.
That's like saying that hospitalists don't have day jobs because 10% of them are nocturnists. Night radiology is the exception, not the norm.
 
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The point is, there are fields that offer far better long-term lifestyle options. Outpatient pediatricians that make the amount an ED doc working 6 shifts a month makes aren't the ones taking call at odd hours of the night. And OBGYN, cards, CC, neo, surg, and anesthesia (usually) are not lifestyle fields. Outpatient peds (most pediatricians), the vast majority of PCPs, and most radiologists I've known don't take call.

If you want lifestyle, ophtho, derm, A&I, PM&R, psych, and plastics can net you zero nights, a flexible schedule, >200k a year, never working weekends, and never having to take call. Also, far lower burnout, and far greater job satisfaction. EM is not a lifestyle field, it's a middle-of-the-road specialty in just about every respect. I'm convinced the only reason people go into it is it's a sexy field without the hour requirements of the other sexy fields- they're not looking for lifestyle, they're looking for the hero factor with as little of a time commitment as possible.

Lol at plastics you do know that they get called in for fasciotomies right when you say plastics you mean just cosmetic plastics? To make a good lifestyle in cosmetic surgery you have to be in the right market which means building a referral base which might mean taking night call. Psych won't net you zero nights if you take call for the hospital which is now a requirement when the hospital buys out your practice. A&I, derm and ophtho are really competitive you can't use those options like they are practical for most med students. Ophtho has to deal with optomestrists wanting to do surgery and they already have rights in a few states.

If psychiatry isn't able to adequately manage psychologists getting Rx rights then it's bad news bears. Yes, many private practice docs have fee for service arrangements and are able to have the type of practice you described. However, building a large enough patient population willing to pay out of pocket and be consistent enough with appts and follow-up to support a full time practice takes time. Just hanging a shingle asking for $X often does not work. Most people cannot afford this setup or want insurance to cover their care. Also, this is going to extremely limit your population given the socioeconomic drift of the mentally ill. If you're wanting to stay interested by your practice, you may need to think beyond this.

Call is often part of a good outpatient system, particularly if you are affiliated with a hospital (salaried or contracted).

You can find plenty of "lifestyle" jobs such as salaried positions in community psych systems, but income will be limited.

PM&R Call depends on inpt vs outpt work. Inpt means you are on call at least for your own patients every day, unless you have a group with rotating call - 4 physiatrists = call q4d. PM&R call usually involves taking pages for med questions and patient complaints. Rarely does one need to go in at night, but it happens. As sicker pts go to rehab than previously, this becomes more likely. Rehab admits don't normally happen after 9-5 hours.

That's like saying that hospitalists don't have day jobs because 10% of them are nocturnists. Night radiology is the exception, not the norm.

An average hospitalist has to work 4 weeks of nights a year.There are not enough nocturnists to cover them.
 
has it ever occurred to you that not all brown people are Hindu/Muslim and have the name Raj or Neel and can be Christian and have names like Jeff. lol

it should be mind brown, not mind blown



Oh shut up and go back to California. Didn't I tell you there's only room for ONE dentite in Allo????

RAGE
 
Oh shut up and go back to California. Didn't I tell you there's only room for ONE dentite in Allo????

RAGE

did you know if you combine Allopathic and Aladdin, it becomes Allodin. His three wishes would make health care practitioners homeless.

ffaaee2b2e7884531dbedd9d9e66521d.jpg
 
Also:
-Live close to the hospital. My car is a 2008 and I still have less than 35K miles on it. Makes gas go a long way...I only have to fill up on average about once a month. Also helps with your car insurance plan.
-Subsidized food budget. About 2/3 of my meals (breakfast and lunch 6 days/wk) and all of my coffee/snacks get covered by our food/call stipend. Makes it easy to buy whatever I want for the other 1/3 of my meals
-School/hospital gym, or I can get a hospital discount at the local gym. Lots of options for cheap fitness. You don't have to pay $30 per class for pure barre or barry's bootcamp or some fad like that.

Bottom line - I had no issues living on my intern salary, and actually put away a good chunk of it into savings. I bought the clothes I wanted, bought the foods and booze I wanted, went out to dinner where I felt like, and had money for a nice vacation. I wasn't driving a mercedes and buying ferragamos (male equivalent of jimmy choos), but I was meeting all my needs as a single person on a pretty nice standard of living.

once a month? do you live a block away? when you say close, you mean like 10 blocks close or something if you only have to get gas 12 times a year. not to mention I have no idea how you do anything besides work if you only have to fill up 12 times a year......
 
did you know if you combine Allopathic and Aladdin, it becomes Allodin. His three wishes would make health care practitioners homeless.

ffaaee2b2e7884531dbedd9d9e66521d.jpg



Hrmmmmm....fine. You used an Aladdin pix. I'll allow you to stay. You're on probation for the next month. Any meanie-pantsness and I will banish you back to Dental!
 
Hrmmmmm....fine. You used an Aladdin pix. I'll allow you to stay. You're on probation for the next month. Any meanie-pantsness and I will banish you back to Dental!

No dont do that. All they will complain is that if you're not working in the Upper Mountain West or rural Texas, you will be a poor man. My bank account says otherwise.
 
You can say it over and over again, but it still doesn't make it any more realistic. The fact of the matter is one month is not enough time to understand how your body reacts to constantly changing your sleep cycle for 30 years. Sure, some love it. But for the majority, anything that requires such flipping of hours is in no way, shape, or form a lifestyle specialty, no matter how many 12 hour shifts you put in a week.

Sorry, but I don't think we're going to see eye to eye here. I just have a hard time mustering sympathy for a lifestyle consisting of 36 hour work weeks and shift work. EM is the newest lifestyle specialty, and many EM residents/attendings IRL will admit that readily. There seems to be a bitter contingent of all fields that posts on SDN -- just look at the gas, cardiology, and GI forums for other examples.

You seem to regret your decision to go into EM ----- but would an extra 3 months on rotations really have given you any more information? I doubt it. Again, obviously you'll understand a field better when your elbows deep in it, but as med students we unfortunately make career decisions based on imperfect information (testimonies from attendings residents, short rotations, gut feeling, SDN...). That's the best you'll get as a student.
 
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EM is the newest lifestyle specialty

There's a reason there's no E in ROAD.

You seem to regret your decision to go into EM ----- but would an extra 3 months on rotations really have given you any more information?

I'm not an EM resident. There's a reason for that.
 
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road isn't valid anymore. this isn't 2000
 
You don't feel like you can watch a move with friends, cook a nice meal, or go out to dinner at least on a weekly basis? I mean I'm only an M1, but I feel like I get to do stuff like this multiple times a week. Not to mention being able to go out with friends to grab some beers on a weekend pretty much every week.

Not trying to insinuate you're doing it wrong, I'm just genuinely curious as to how many people feel like they can't do stuff like this on a regular basis.... I don't know how I'd get through school otherwise.

Weekly yea, but I prefer daily, which sucks. I HATE staying home and watching tv, so I don't do that. I wish to do those things every day...going out to dinners, bars, outdoor activities and big events on a daily basis. Ideally, I would rarely or never be home, at all.
 
Medicine in general have a way harder lifestyle than your average 40 hour job. But when comparing medical specialties... some specialties with good lifestyles come to mind.. the most obvious being Dermatology and radiation oncology. Other specialties that can open their own practice can set their ours so that is flexible. But you will be sacrificing income for lifestyle. Radiology and Anesthesiology DO NOT have easy lifestyles..

EM has a very good lifestyle as well.

Then again this can all be completely different by next year =\. medicine is in the hands of the politicians and administrators
 
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If psychiatry isn't able to adequately manage psychologists getting Rx rights then it's bad news bears. Yes, many private practice docs have fee for service arrangements and are able to have the type of practice you described. However, building a large enough patient population willing to pay out of pocket and be consistent enough with appts and follow-up to support a full time practice takes time. Just hanging a shingle asking for $X often does not work. Most people cannot afford this setup or want insurance to cover their care. Also, this is going to extremely limit your population given the socioeconomic drift of the mentally ill. If you're wanting to stay interested by your practice, you may need to think beyond this.

Call is often part of a good outpatient system, particularly if you are affiliated with a hospital (salaried or contracted).

You can find plenty of "lifestyle" jobs such as salaried positions in community psych systems, but income will be limited.
I'll address the hospitalist bit later, as I'm dissecting the most recent report I can find on call and night coverage. But as to psych: greater than half of psychiatrists do not take any insurance at all. 60% of psychiatrists work in solo private practices that are worthless for a hospital to buy up, as the patients are generally there to see that particular psychiatrist, and are unlikely to just go to some new provider (the worthlessness of solo, cash-only psych practices has been addressed in the psych forums if you want to dig for it). Psychiatric care is more a service than a commodity, and there's more than enough of a shortage for you to run a cash business at your leisure. Given the choice of lifestyle or seeing a diverse patient population, sorry, but I'm taking lifestyle every time. As to potential psychologist prescribing rights, even in the states where they can legally prescribe, few have done so: 33 in New Mexico as of 2011, 70 in Louisiana as of 2012, and 100 in the military as of 2012. Psych NPs are a far more real threat, but few NPs want to go into psychiatry with the more lucrative (and sexy) options out there (EM, derm, critical care, etc). In any case, even with the psych NPs and psychologists out there, we're terribly short on psychiatrists and psychiatric care in general, a trend that is very unlikely to change in the next 20 years.
 
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There's a reason there's no E in ROAD.



I'm not an EM resident. There's a reason for that.
When the ROAD acronym was created, EM didn't even exist as a specialty, for the record. Maybe we should change it to ROADIE, throw EM and immunology in there.
 
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Then again this can all be completely different by next year =\. medicine is in the hands of the politicians and administrators

which is frustrating because students have non-dischargeable hefty student loans and a politician can indirectly make that student loan even more worrisome. Midmajors with increased leverage in the dental field would essentially make tens of thousands dental students in huge financial trouble.
 
which is frustrating because students have non-dischargeable hefty student loans and a politician can indirectly make that student loan even more worrisome. Midmajors with increased leverage in the dental field would essentially make tens of thousands dental students in huge financial trouble.

yea more people with loans taking longer to pay off = more money from interest! medical professions get 0 sympathy from anyone.
 
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i think pediatry plus is the fact that i like it a lot but also a radilogy can make really good money . And you have everyone sympathy because you will treat the kids and its AWESOME.
 
i think pediatry plus is the fact that i like it a lot but also a radilogy can make really good money . And you have everyone sympathy because you will treat the kids and its AWESOME.

maybe in other countries but in the US, passionate pediatricians are a dying breed bc of angry parents and the bureaucracy drama.
 
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When the ROAD acronym was created, EM didn't even exist as a specialty, for the record. Maybe we should change it to ROADIE, throw EM and immunology in there.

I was speaking more philosophically honestly. I realize it's an acronym that's been around forever. But I'm saying there's a reason most people don't think of EM when thinking of the lifestyle specialties. Some hear "36 hours a week" and automatically think it's a dream job that anyone would be crazy to leave out of the lifestyle specialty category without taking into account what it really entails. If it was as simple as that, it would be on every lifestyle specialty list in existence and everyone would be gunning for it, even more than derm. There's a reason they're not.
 
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Apart from being outdated, the ROAD acronym was never meant to be a comprehensive list of lifestyle specialties. It was intended to be a list of specialties that maximized the balance between income and lifestyle.
 
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I was speaking more philosophically honestly. I realize it's an acronym that's been around forever. But I'm saying there's a reason most people don't think of EM when thinking of the lifestyle specialties. Some hear "36 hours a week" and automatically think it's a dream job that anyone would be crazy to leave out of the lifestyle specialty category without taking into account what it really entails. If it was as simple as that, it would be on every lifestyle specialty list in existence and everyone would be gunning for it, even more than derm. There's a reason they're not.
I've always wondered however, how you reconcile the obvious dissonance that results when practitioners try and "sell" their field by bragging about the lifestyle benefits?

I have good friends who are EM physicians and I get that the work is exhausting but every damn time they (and here on SDN) trumpet the benefits, it always includes the lifestyle and low work hours.
 
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Apart from being outdated, the ROAD acronym was never meant to be a comprehensive list of lifestyle specialties. It was intended to be a list of specialties that maximized the balance between income and lifestyle.

And? EM makes pretty good money for the hours worked. Actually, I think that's the biggest selling point. Hourly wage in EM is pretty damn good.

I've always wondered however, how you reconcile the obvious dissonance that results when practitioners try and "sell" their field by bragging about the lifestyle benefits?

I have good friends who are EM physicians and I get that the work is exhausting but every damn time they (and here on SDN) trumpet the benefits, it always includes the lifestyle and low work hours.

Of course they tout the low work hours. Flipping your hours while working 36 hours a week is a hell of a lot better than flipping your hours while working 50 hours a week. I'm not saying that 36 hours isn't a low number of hours to work. What I'm saying is that I'd much rather work 50 hours a week on a regular schedule than flip my hours every other week and work 36 hours a week. To me, that trade-off isn't worth it because when you disrupt your sleep cycle so frequently, you don't get the benefit of the 36-hour work week.
 
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I was speaking more philosophically honestly. I realize it's an acronym that's been around forever. But I'm saying there's a reason most people don't think of EM when thinking of the lifestyle specialties. Some hear "36 hours a week" and automatically think it's a dream job that anyone would be crazy to leave out of the lifestyle specialty category without taking into account what it really entails. If it was as simple as that, it would be on every lifestyle specialty list in existence and everyone would be gunning for it, even more than derm. There's a reason they're not.

literally everyone thinks of EM as a lifestyle specialty now. I don't know what is more lifestyle than working 36 hours a week. I don't care if you're dragging your feet over molten lava for those 36 hours, that's literally the definition of lifestyle. Yeah it's not as cush as derm, but it's the next tier.
 
Of course they tout the low work hours. Flipping your hours while working 36 hours a week is a hell of a lot better than flipping your hours while working 50 hours a week. I'm not saying that 36 hours isn't a low number of hours to work. What I'm saying is that I'd much rather work 50 hours a week on a regular schedule than flip my hours every other week and work 36 hours a week. To me, that trade-off isn't worth it because when you disrupt your sleep cycle so frequently, you don't get the benefit of the 36-hour work week.

Yes I understand all that.

What I don't understand is why every EM physician complains about the hours but when they are trying to "sell' the field, the hours and lifestyle is nearly universally always the first thing mentioned. You can't have it both ways.
 
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literally everyone thinks of EM as a lifestyle specialty now.

This thread proves otherwise.

Yes I understand all that.

What I don't understand is why every EM physician complains about the hours but when they are trying to "sell' the field, the hours and lifestyle is nearly universally always the first thing mentioned. You can't have it both ways.

I don't know. We'd have to ask an EM physician.
 
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1 hr in EM = 1.5 hrs in other fields.
36 hrs of EM = 54 hours in other fields

Thus, the 36 hours a week isn't as good as it looks.

I've said it before, I'll say it again- 1 hr in the ED is equal to 1.5 hours doing anything else normal people do at work, including other doctors.
 
this guy gets it but I heard PM&R is not as great as some make it out to be. Ophtho and derm are definitely lifestyle specialties but it rivals or exceeds oral surgery residency in terms of competitiveness. Makes sense though, work hard, get rewarded hard.

PM&R lifestyle is generally excellent, but if you want to make $$ then it will suffer (like every field). Inpatient may have call for little things with an occasional emergency, but plenty of larger rehab facilities are covered by a hospitalist at night. Outpatient almost never requires any call. Even in residency covering 45 beds I am "unlucky" to get less than 5 hours of sleep during in house call. The market seems to be moving more towards inpatient and is tight-ish on major coastal cities in NE and Cali. Lots of co-residents staying in DC area/NYC/etc are getting 150-175k offers to start, while those willing to move seem to see about 40k more (assuming job duties are similar). The money in PM&R isn't really great by medicine standards but within 5 years you should make over 200k in most scenarios and can work 45 hrs a week.

I too, have never met a physiatrist that wasn't able to have an outside life and a normal schedule.

I hated the 12 hours in the ED. Time went by, but the environment is pretty much the opposite of what I prefer. Pain patients don't bother me at all either, I guess it all depends on personality, but personally I would never consider it a "lifestyle" specialty.
 
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