Where to List Publication In Progress

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ArtMajor

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Under my activities section of AMCAS, I have a publications category for a publication for which I am second author. I was thinking of using the rest of the description space to list a publication which has been submitted and is in review, and one which is in progress.

Since I am not giving these non-published projects their own category, is this OK? Should I list them somewhere else instead?

Thanks

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Under my activities section of AMCAS, I have a publications category for a publication for which I am second author. I was thinking of using the rest of the description space to list a publication which has been submitted and is in review, and one which is in progress.

Since I am not giving these non-published projects their own category, is this OK? Should I list them somewhere else instead?

Thanks
Personally, I see no problem putting it there as long as you are clear that it is in review and not actually published. However, some people might perceive it as presumptuous. If you have the room, I would stick it at the end of your research experience description just to be safe.
 
Yes put in publications (with designation about submitted) but I'm confused about the "in progress" bit. You mean it's a manuscript that hasn't been submitted yet? If so, I would not include that.

Include the submitted one.
 
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I would not include a manuscript that is in preparation. That means nothing. I probably wouldn't list a submitted pub either, since a pub that hasn't made it through peer review is essentially a question mark. I believe @Goro once said that you can write "I love cheese" a hundred times and submit it to Science, and technically you have a paper under review at Science.

Edit: Just to be clear, I am referring to including a submitted manuscript as a separate item, not mentioning it within a research activity description, which I think is worthwhile.
 
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I would not include a manuscript that is in preparation. That means nothing. I probably wouldn't list a submitted pub either, since a pub that hasn't made it through peer review is essentially a question mark. I believe @Goro once said that you can write "I love cheese" a hundred times and submit it to Science, and technically you have a paper under review at Science.
I disagree with this. Most medical school applicants don't have any kind of publication, so I believe having a publication in review would set you apart from other applicants and demonstrate follow-through with your research. Even if you could submit a bunch of nonsense to a journal (can you even do that?) and claim it's "submitted" for however long it takes them to reject it, it doesn't matter because nobody would do that. Also, projects that I've been involved with have gone through a "pre-submission" process such that the authors know the journal is interested, which lends more legitimacy to a submitted paper. Just my two cents.
 
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Under my activities section of AMCAS, I have a publications category for a publication for which I am second author. I was thinking of using the rest of the description space to list a publication which has been submitted and is in review, and one which is in progress.

Since I am not giving these non-published projects their own category, is this OK? Should I list them somewhere else instead?

Thanks
This is not an activity in an of itself...its part of your research ECs. So if there's a separate part of the app for "Research", then that's where it should go. If not, then describe your research activities.
 
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I disagree with this. Most medical school applicants don't have any kind of publication, so I believe having a publication in review would set you apart from other applicants and demonstrate follow-through with your research. Even if you could submit a bunch of nonsense to a journal (can you even do that?) and claim it's "submitted" for however long it takes them to reject it, it doesn't matter because nobody would do that. Also, projects that I've been involved with have gone through a "pre-submission" process such that the authors know the journal is interested, which lends more legitimacy to a submitted paper. Just my two cents.

People submit sub-par papers to journals all the time. That's why there's a peer review process. Having a manuscript under review says absolutely nothing about the quality of the work done or the paper. If it's a manuscript that's been accepted but not published yet, that is something to list. Publications are nice, but are not expected or required. Research experience is not even required unless you're applying to research powerhouses--and even then, pubs are not necessary (there are several threads on this). If you have research experience and a submitted manuscript, the quality of the research that you describe under the research experience is way more important than listing a submitted manuscript. The latter will get you nothing positive and possibly something negative if they think you're padding or trying to take credit for something that hasn't happened yet (and may not happen at all).

And yes, you can submit whatever you want to a journal. There is nothing stopping you from writing, "I hate cheese," repeatedly for ten pages and then submitting it to Science. It will get rejected and you'll probably end up on a list or something, but you can do it.
 
I got to meet some adcoms at t20 schools at this med school fair at my school. They said put it down as in progress and send them an update if/when it gets accepted. It's not as good as actually published but it's better than nothing

Having a publication (esp 1st or 2nd author) is one of the better ECs out there so unless you have 15 things that are better than that it's worth it to list it
 
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I will devil advocate for a minute here. Its one thing to have just a paper submitted, but being part of a paper that has been prepared and is part of the description under the lab/research where you have done it may be appropriate. Certainly not to the point of anything definite , as in what publication. For example under research I would put
"research published (see publication) with second paper submitted" However, I would not do more than that.

This is in contrast to the spate of LOI questions about saying I have a paper submitted.
@Goro opinions on this?

Yes. Totally agree with this and really wasn't saying anything else. Maybe it wasn't clear, but what I'm saying is that you shouldn't list a publication that has only been submitted as a separate publication. Describing it within the research activity itself is totally kosher, IMHO.
 
The latter will get you nothing positive and possibly something negative if they think you're padding or trying to take credit for something that hasn't happened yet (and may not happen at all).
This is just my opinion as somebody who is decidedly not on an admissions committee, but I really don't see how a reasonable person could call that a "negative." If I were reading somebody's application and saw that they had a paper in review, all I would think is that they did enough research to help their lab out with a paper and their PI (among other people) deemed it acceptable to submit to a journal. As long as they're not lying about its status or anything like that, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And yes, you can submit whatever you want to a journal. There is nothing stopping you from writing, "I hate cheese," repeatedly for ten pages and then submitting it to Science.
Yes, there is a great deal stopping you from doing that. Common sense, logic, taking a hit to your reputation in the scientific community, getting blacklisted from medical schools, etc. It may very well be technically possible to do such a thing, but that doesn't mean it's something than anyone on an admissions committee would take into consideration if they saw that an applicant had listed a submitted paper.
 
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Personally, I don't like listing anything until it's accepted (including accepted with revisions). Peer review is the difficult process and often it takes months of revisions to finally get a paper accepted. Submission in itself means little since there is no guarantee it will be accepted.
 
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This is just my opinion as somebody who is decidedly not on an admissions committee, but I really don't see how a reasonable person could call that a "negative." If I were reading somebody's application and saw that they had a paper in review, all I would think is that they did enough research to help their lab out with a paper and their PI (among other people) deemed it acceptable to submit to a journal. As long as they're not lying about its status or anything like that, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If you describe it under the research experience, then I think it'd be seen as a positive. Listing a "submitted manuscript" as a publication seems a little naive and like CV padding.

Yes, there is a great deal stopping you from doing that. Common sense, logic, taking a hit to your reputation in the scientific community, getting blacklisted from medical schools, etc. It may very well be technically possible to do such a thing, but that doesn't mean it's something than anyone on an admissions committee would take into consideration if they saw that an applicant had listed a submitted paper.

The point is that your manuscript could be complete trash or just have issues that make it not ready for publication. There's no way to know if the manuscript is worthy of publication just because it's under review.
 
If you have a draft of the third unsubmitted manuscript being revised, then list all three under a single publications entry. List the second as in review at x journal in place of the journal and the third as "in preparation". If the science is there and has been written up, it might be two years before it's in print, but it definitely says something significant about the progress of your work compared to simply research experience. This is for an initial application only, not for an update (only in print is worthy of an update). Also, you need to be able to send a copy of the manuscript to anyone who asks to write "in preparation" in good faith. This is true for a cv as well. I did this for two publications that have been bounced and re-submitted a couple of times since applying, they will probably be in print within a year despite having complete drafts when I applied.


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If you describe it under the research experience, then I think it'd be seen as a positive. Listing a "submitted manuscript" as a publication seems a little naive and like CV padding.



The point is that your manuscript could be complete trash or just have issues that make it not ready for publication. There's no way to know if the manuscript is worthy of publication just because it's under review.

Most editors screen for significance, coherence, and scope before sending a manuscript out for review. At least that's my experience. There is a reason journal editors have post-doctoral fellowships before they are eligible for the job.


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So basically what I'm asking is, if I create an entry for the paper which actually did get published, then in the description mention the other paper which is in review, would this be appropriate?

Because then im not actually creating a whole new entry for an unfinished paper...
 
So basically what I'm asking is, if I create an entry for the paper which actually did get published, then in the description mention the other paper which is in review, would this be appropriate?

Because then im not actually creating a whole new entry for an unfinished paper...
I would only list the paper that has been published under the "publications" category. Mentioning the submitted paper would be appropriate to place in a "research" category where you describe your general research activities, along with the status (eg under review, minor edits requested by editors, etc)

Sidebar: it's a hard lesson to learn that submitted DOES NOT equal a publication, so try not to get ahead of yourself here. Most reviewers of your application will be all too familiar with the feeling of submitting a paper they thought was a shoe-in for pub, but ultimately gets rejected. The merit in this activity for you thus far has been learning about the research process and steps involved in writing something up.
 
So basically what I'm asking is, if I create an entry for the paper which actually did get published, then in the description mention the other paper which is in review, would this be appropriate?

Because then im not actually creating a whole new entry for an unfinished paper...

I actually didn't use the official publication category at all though I had a couple of papers already published. I did research activity, called the activity "Publications", and for the description listed the citations for the already published papers and listed the written manuscripts as citations but "in preparation" where journal and year would go.

To explicitly answer your question, I personally would not dedicate a whole activity separately to a not yet peer reviewed and accepted manuscript (even if it were up as a pre-print on say bioRxiv). Rather I would attach the stage of the writing process to a research activity description for the project or lump all published and in progress publications into a single entry. Some of this advice really depends on the holistic picture of your application and how you are presenting yourself.

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I would not include a manuscript that is in preparation. That means nothing. I probably wouldn't list a submitted pub either, since a pub that hasn't made it through peer review is essentially a question mark. I believe @Goro once said that you can write "I love cheese" a hundred times and submit it to Science, and technically you have a paper under review at Science.

People submit sub-par papers to journals all the time. That's why there's a peer review process. Having a manuscript under review says absolutely nothing about the quality of the work done or the paper. If it's a manuscript that's been accepted but not published yet, that is something to list. Publications are nice, but are not expected or required. Research experience is not even required unless you're applying to research powerhouses--and even then, pubs are not necessary (there are several threads on this). If you have research experience and a submitted manuscript, the quality of the research that you describe under the research experience is way more important than listing a submitted manuscript. The latter will get you nothing positive and possibly something negative if they think you're padding or trying to take credit for something that hasn't happened yet (and may not happen at all).

I agree with the manuscript in preparation part because somebody could write "in preparation" even if the project is in a very preliminary stage of completion. But submitting a publication is more substantial for several reasons. I've tried to dispel some of the notion that anybody can submit a paper elsewhere but I'll try to treat it again here. Yes, in concept anybody can submit a paper. But I find it difficult to believe (and this is corroborated by my own experience in doing peer reviews, etc.) that the absurd case usually put forth on here - that somebody would write "I love cheese" a hundred times or the ridiculous equivalent and submit it somewhere - finds any substance in reality whatsoever. I've never seen a piece of "scientific" work that laughable, although in theory it is possible. If a pre-med thinks of doing this, I would love to hear about what he or she says when asked about the substance of his or her "research" later on.

The more likely scenario is that the work has scientific basis but is not sound for some reason or has some serious flaw that leads to rejection. But this is a part of the scientific process - and it's an important part that most pre-meds never see. Most academics will have their papers rejected at one point or another - for one reason or another (more on that below). It's not the end of the world and it may not even mean that the paper is scientifically invalid. Perhaps there is a flaw they did not foresee and now they have to do the experiments to cover their ass. In fact, when many now-accepted scientific views arose, they were not favored by the mainstream. The people who came up with those ideas had to fight for them tooth and claw until they became (now) universally accepted. That's just how science works. And rejection is an integral part of the scientific process (and proof that it is working).

But papers can be rejected for any variety of reasons other than on their merit. When we're asked to review (each journal is different but in general this is my experience in the chemical world), we are asked not only about the scientific validity of the work but also whether it is suitable for the "prestige" of the journal and whether its content is broadly applicable to most of the journal's readership. So a trial of a new surgical procedure that is revolutionary and cures some cancer could be submitted to Science or Nature and be rejected not for its merits (let's assume it's scientifically sound) but because its subject matter is not relevant to the majority of the journal's readership. The authors would get a rejection notice with a suggestion to submit to a more field-specific journal.

So even though submitted papers can be rejected for many different reasons, each of those reasons offers a lesson about the scientific process and science itself. It is a valuable experience for pre-meds because it shows that even science isn't infallible. The act of submitting a paper is not the culmination of scientific work - if it is rejected, the process loops back on itself and starts over again. But the act of submitting a paper is still a monumental undertaking - reflecting months upon months of work (nobody submits "I love cheese" written a hundred times).
 
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I agree with the manuscript in preparation part because somebody could write "in preparation" even if the project is in a very preliminary stage of completion. But submitting a publication is more substantial for several reasons. I've tried to dispel some of the notion that anybody can submit a paper elsewhere but I'll try to treat it again here. Yes, in concept anybody can submit a paper. But I find it difficult to believe (and this is corroborated by my own experience in doing peer reviews, etc.) that the absurd case usually put forth on here - that somebody would write "I love cheese" a hundred times or the ridiculous equivalent and submit it somewhere - finds any substance in reality whatsoever. I've never seen a piece of "scientific" work that laughable, although in theory it is possible. If a pre-med thinks of doing this, I would love to hear about what he or she says when asked about the substance of his or her "research" later on.

The more likely scenario is that the work has scientific basis but is not sound for some reason or has some serious flaw that leads to rejection. But this is a part of the scientific process - and it's an important part that most pre-meds never see. Most academics will have their papers rejected at one point or another - for one reason or another (more on that below). It's not the end of the world and it may not even mean that the paper is scientifically invalid. Perhaps there is a flaw they did not foresee and now they have to do the experiments to cover their ass. In fact, when many now-accepted scientific views arose, they were not favored by the mainstream. The people who came up with those ideas had to fight for them tooth and claw until they became (now) universally accepted. That's just how science works. And rejection is an integral part of the scientific process (and proof that it is working).

But papers can be rejected for any variety of reasons other than on their merit. When we're asked to review (each journal is different but in general this is my experience in the chemical world), we are asked not only about the scientific validity of the work but also whether it is suitable for the "prestige" of the journal and whether its content is broadly applicable to most of the journal's readership. So a trial of a new surgical procedure that is revolutionary and cures some cancer could be submitted to Science or Nature and be rejected not for its merits (let's assume it's scientifically sound) but because its subject matter is not relevant to the majority of the journal's readership. The authors would get a rejection notice with a suggestion to submit to a more field-specific journal.

So even though submitted papers can be rejected for many different reasons, each of those reasons offers a lesson about the scientific process and science itself. It is a valuable experience for pre-meds because it shows that even science isn't infallible. The act of submitting a paper is not the culmination of scientific work - if it is rejected, the process loops back on itself and starts over again. But the act of submitting a paper is still a monumental undertaking - reflecting months upon months of work (nobody submits "I love cheese" written a hundred times).

As I've said a couple times now, I don't think including a submitted manuscript in a research activity is wrong. I think listing it as its own activity is a bad idea, as it isn't yet a publication and may never be. Papers get rejected for reasons other than quality, but those rejections are still rejections. And before the paper is accepted, it's impossible for an adcom to know if the paper is any good.

And you missed the point of the cheese example. I'd apologize for being unclear, but other people seemed to get it.
 
As I've said a couple times now, I don't think including a submitted manuscript in a research activity is wrong. I think listing it as its own activity is a bad idea, as it isn't yet a publication and may never be. Papers get rejected for reasons other than quality, but those rejections are still rejections. And before the paper is accepted, it's impossible for an adcom to know if the paper is any good.

Is the purpose of a pre-med research project to get a "good" paper out or is it to learn about the scientific process? Submitting a paper is a crucial part of the scientific process - it initiates the process of peer review and either constructive feedback or acceptance of the work. If the only purpose of research for a pre-med is to get a "good" paper, then I agree - don't list anything other than accepted papers.

I do agree that listing as its own activity is a waste of space if it's only submitted - I'm only arguing against those who hold that submitted papers just shouldn't be mentioned at all (if no one is for that viewpoint, then I apologize - I've misunderstood).
 
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Is the purpose of a pre-med research project to get a "good" paper out or is it to learn about the scientific process? Submitting a paper is a crucial part of the scientific process - it initiates the process of peer review and either constructive feedback or acceptance of the work. If the only purpose of research for a pre-med is to get a "good" paper, then I agree - don't list anything other than accepted papers.

I do agree that listing as its own activity is a waste of space if it's only submitted - I'm only arguing against those who hold that submitted papers just shouldn't be mentioned at all (if no one is for that viewpoint, then I apologize - I've misunderstood).

I think my original post on the topic was a little unclear about that. A few posters thought I suggested not mentioning it at all, when I actually meant to not include it as a separate item. I've tried to clarify that a few times, but you know how it goes.
 
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I think my original post on the topic was a little unclear about that. A few posters thought I suggested not mentioning it at all, when I actually meant to not include it as a separate item. I've tried to clarify that a few times, but you know how it goes.

I think we have a consensus that an unpublished paper regardless of stage should not be listed as its own activity.


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