What happens if you don't match to residency in Canada or US?

[BarryK]

Hi,
I'm a BSc student from Ottawa (finishing next year), thinking of applying for Sept. 2012.

I'm wondering if anyone knows about what % of Canadians who finish Irish Med School end up hitting a "dead end", where they don't get to use the Medical Degree at all.

- It looks like about 50% of those that try to get to Canada make a match, and get to do postgrad in US.
- Not sure what the % chance of making it into US, though overall is listed at about 50%. (source /www.internationaldoc.com/) Does anyone have a better estimate of this % number for Irish grads?
- You apparently cannot continue in Ireland (internship) unless you are an EU citizen

So if you fail to match in Canada or US, is that it (you've hit a dead-end, Medical career over)?

Or what else can you do to improve your chances in future matches, if you've finished school, but aren't able to intern/postrgrad in the Medical system in Ireland, Canada or US?

Barry

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[Der Kaiser]

Only 50%? I've read much higher numbers for Irish grads returning to North America. Someone claimed on a thread here that RCSI saw 100% back to NA somewhere. It is hard to find info. on this. Can you cite a source for the 50% number (I cannot for the RCSI one)?

 

[BarryK]

>> Only 50%? I've read much higher numbers for Irish grads returning to North America.

Actually the #s I see in the Docs are closer to 20%. ie) if you go to Ireland to MedSchool, the chances of you coming back to Canada are about 20%.

Yes, http://www.caper.ca/docs/pdf_2005_2009(1)_img_dbase_report.pdf table 6, page 13. These list the number of FMG accepted to Canada post grad programs, from 2005 to 2009

The overall return rate for Canadians studying in Ireland looks to be more like 20%, but of course some of them would choose to go elsewhere like US or stay in Ireland (if they are Irish Citizens).

Ireland

Year # % of total grads
2005 18 5.9% (e.g. in 2005, 18 Canadians in Irish schools were accepted to residencies in Canada)
2006 20 4.9%
2007 23 4.9%
2008 41 8.9%
2009 34 6.5%

Total 131 students over the 5 years

Average 31 per year

That would apply an overall "success coming back" rate of 31 out of 150*, about 20%. But of course not all students are applying to Canada, although about 85% of CSA's in Ireland reported in a survery that they intend to come back to Canada.

*Apparently there are 150 Candian-Irish students expected in first year class of 2010 and 650 total students in all the years in Ireland. http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010_CSA_Report/CaRMS_2010_CSA_Report.pdf

Incidentally, countries that had more students coming back to Ireland included Iran, India, Pakistan (Romania is close to same # as Ireland). UK had much less than Ireland, about 11 per year.

 

[BarryK]

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010_CSA_Report/CaRMS_2010_CSA_Report.pdf

Here is the source for 150 Canadian students expected in 2010 class in Ireland. From the above post, we see that historically about 7% of postGrad posts that go to foreign graduates in Canada go to Irish grads, which would put the # about 31 given that about 450 FMG PostGrad positions were offered in 2010.

TABLE 31 NUMBER OF CSAS STUDYING MEDICINE IN IRELAND
Location Medical School Estimation of CSAs
Ireland Trinity College Dublin ~ 70
Ireland University College Dublin ~ 90
Ireland Royal College of Surgeons Ireland (RCSI) ~ 200
Ireland University College Cork ~ 70
Ireland University of Limerick ~ 50
Ireland National University of Ireland, Galway ~ 20

**** Ireland Additional Admissions in Sept 2010 ~ 150

Estimated Total ~ 650

 

[med2UCC]

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010_CSA_Report/CaRMS_2010_CSA_Report.pdf

Here is the source for 150 Canadian students expected in 2010 class in Ireland. From the above post, we see that historically about 7% of postGrad posts that go to foreign graduates in Canada go to Irish grads, which would put the # about 31 given that about 450 FMG PostGrad positions were offered in 2010.

TABLE 31 NUMBER OF CSAS STUDYING MEDICINE IN IRELAND
Location Medical School Estimation of CSAs
Ireland Trinity College Dublin ~ 70
Ireland University College Dublin ~ 90
Ireland Royal College of Surgeons Ireland (RCSI) ~ 200
Ireland University College Cork ~ 70
Ireland University of Limerick ~ 50
Ireland National University of Ireland, Galway ~ 20

**** Ireland Additional Admissions in Sept 2010 ~ 150

Estimated Total ~ 650

Do keep in mind that these are historic highs. When I was in Ireland (2003-2008) the classes were gradually growing bigger. However, Galway was only admitting about 3 a year until 2008, and Cork when I left in 2008 was only up to 52 Canadian student total. The 2007 graduating class only had 5 Canadians in it, 3 of whom chose to either stay in Ireland or match elsewhere. The year before that had only 3 Canadians. This will skew your presumed match rates. In reality, the match rates are much closer to 100% for Canadian applying from Irish schools. I only know of one person from UCC who didn't match in Canada over the past 4 years, out of approximately 38 who applied. All those who applied to the US matched.
Cheers,
M

 

[jnuts]

A couple of points:

The original assertion that non-EU citizens cannot continue in Ireland is, at best, conjecture and certainly historically false. After medical school Irish junior doctors enter a general internship year determined by a non-binding process similar to the match running in June of the graduating year. These internships are by-and-large similar in structure and desirablility. The intern year is a one year program and it is--and always has been--open to non-EU citizens who have gone to medical school in Ireland. However, in a change beginning with last years match, spots are given to non-EU citizens only after all EU citizens applying have been placed. Prior to this, internship jobs were given by the graduating medical school, and as such, guaranteed for all graduates of that medical school. That is no longer the case as the internship year administration has been evolved to a central authority. That being said, all applicants from Irish medical schools who applied for intern year jobs last year matched. Many Canadians studying in Ireland are planning to stay in Ireland and relying on this trend to continue. There is some element of conjecture in this assumption, but there is little evidence to suggest it is unfounded as there has been an annoucemnet from the Irish medical authority that there will be an increase in Internship posts this year over last.

Information about that the Internship year can be found here:
http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/FAQ/Ju...ernship-registration/Internship-Training.html

My second point comes from a presentation made by the CaRMS CEO in Ireland last year that referenced a 67% Canadian match success rate. 67% of Canadians studying in Ireland, and remaining in CaRMS through the full match process (i.e. not including pre-match withdrawls, US matches, or scramble matches) matched in 2008. Therefore the total number of Canadians who applied in that year was 41*(1/0.67)=61. Though I cannot provide an external reference for these data as CaRMS has not posted this statistic, it has been widely mentioned on this forum, and this number grossely correlates with my own 'imbedded' observations.

Finally, it should be noted that the data may change substantially for the 2010/11 census (and it is unfortunate that these data are not yet available). That year showed a large increase in the number of Canadians graduating from Ireland and--subjectively--the number of matches. Prior to that year the trend of numbers of Canadians studying in Ireland was relatively flat. Of course, that is also a subjective analysis as this is the first year CaRMS has investigated how many students are studying abroad.

My only substantive conclusion here is that it may be futile to try to correlate the 2005-2009 years of match data with the current and future graduating class sizes in Ireland, as BarryK has done, given the two year gap in temporally over-lapping points. Both data sets have varied in a non-linear fashion and the resulting projections are flawed to the point of uselessness. Any analysis that attempts to trend this data runs into the confounding variables of non-trendable changes in available IMG spots, yearly changes Irish medical school enrollment, and variable student preferences in geographical location of their post graduate trainning exaggerated by the small sample size. For example, as mentioned in the CaRMS CSA report, in Ireland the intention to return to Canada decreases as a student progresses towards graduation and only 7% of students express "low-probability of matching" as the primary reason for this preference. Subjectively, the most common motivation that I've witnessed is romatic attachment.

The only useful data point that relates to your likelihood of matching is the one from CaRMS I mentioned above. I think that reserving judgement on the likelihood of match success until the publication of at least the 2010/11 CAPER report (and better yet the 2011/2012 when there is actual overlap) would be wise. Regardless of errors and variables, going to Ireland is a gamble and I certainly think trying pubically to figure out the odds and real risks involved (especially for non-EU citizens) is laudable. However, the available data doesn't help...yet.

I would also mention as a point of pride (and a tacit acknowledgment of my bias), that of those RCSI students who publicly declared an intention to match in Canada, 29, or 100%, of them did match in Canada.

 

[Der Kaiser]

Would either Jnuts or Med2UCC care to offer an opinion on the success rates in the coming years, particularly around 2015?

I only ask, because it seems that matching back to Canada takes effort in the way of electives and letters of rec, and if there is a real risk of not matching back it may be more realistic to plan on doing residency in the states or even Ireland. If there are more and more canadian Irish grads then it may behoove one to explore other options.

 

[jnuts]

Sorry, there are too many factors and too little information for me to feel comfortable that I'd be giving anything other than wild conjecture.

In specific cases, particularly if you hold a duel citizenship with an EU country, I'd predict a positive--if not geographic--outcome but other than that there are no guarantees. Medical education abroad is a gamble; in my opinion Ireland has the best odds.

Would either Jnuts or Med2UCC care to offer an opinion on the success rates in the coming years, particularly around 2015?

I only ask, because it seems that matching back to Canada takes effort in the way of electives and letters of rec, and if there is a real risk of not matching back it may be more realistic to plan on doing residency in the states or even Ireland. If there are more and more canadian Irish grads then it may behoove one to explore other options.

 

[IamSuperDoctor]

How can it be such a gamble if med2UCC says that the match rates are close to 100%? It may change in the future, but it still seems to me that students who put enough time into their studies typically match very well. Like i've said in other threads, I know several established surgeons, dermatologists, and family docs who all graduated from irish schools. The prospects seem good, for those who put effort into it... Not to mention the obvious doctor shortage.

Besides, if you half-ass your way through med school you dont deserve to match anyway.

 

[med2UCC]

1st, I'm with Jnuts on predectinig the future. If I could do that I'd be making way more money than I am currently by investing in the stock market and making a kiling based on my fabulous psychic powers (and I'd be a better doctor because I could also read minds and predict the course of patient care. Sadly I missed the part of med school where that was taught!).
However, reading trends dosn't require me to be psychic, so here goes. As the doctor shortage in Canada becomes less critical, it will become harder to match back to Canada. The only reason there are those lovely RoS spots is because Canada is having trouble staffing certain locations and has, in general, a critical shortage of all medical professionals. Over the past 20 years Canada has gradually become more hostile to the idea that people trained abroad have equivalent training to those trained in Canada, even those trained in reputable med schools in the UK, Ireland, Australia and South Africa, commonwealth countries that it has been traditionally easier to come to Canada from and practice. Regardelss of how well you do in med school and how well taught you are, Canada is suspicious of foreign trained doctors. They do concede that the Irish and UK schools are turning out good grads, based on their experience with them, but as soon as the doctor shortage is solved (probably not by 2015 - the shortages in Ontario might be over by then but the rest of the country will still be in trouble) it will be back to business as usual.
Good luck,
M

 

[Der Kaiser]

Thanks for the replies! I am a little disappointed that none of the Irish schools have a course in psychic medicine, but oh well.

I am skeptical that the family doctor shortage will be solved in Ontario by 2017 as the gvt. claims, but it does not matter if it is actually solved, only that they believe it is solved.

Is it possible to work towards doing residency in three different locations? Like do electives in Canada and the U.S. and gain letters of rec in Ireland in order to hedge your bets?

 

[jnuts]

It's absolutely possible to go for all three options at once.

Ireland's matching criteria are pretty much class rank and VISA status only (no letters required). The Irish match runs in June so there is plenty of time to withdraw if you match in North America

The US and Canadian match have a reciprocal relationship such that if you match in one place you're withdrawn from the other. Right now the Canadian first round match runs before the US first round; so Canadians have a chance to match at home before you run the risk of a binding match in the USA. There are some complexities, like splitting your limited elective time between two countries, the possibility of a pre-match offer in the USA, and that you are not able to participate in the second round, but these are largely navigable.

You can also blend the two. Because Ireland's training program is not recognized in North America, you can stay here for the intern year and beyond and still be elidgible for the first round match in North America. However, if you start training in the States, even in a non-categorical program, you will be limited to the second round in all provinces.

CaRMS elidgibility by province:
http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml

And for the record, I absolutely agree with med2UCC that the projected resolution of the physician shortage in Ontario is unlikely. I just don't have enough hard evidence to make that claim conclusively enough to make to assert here. As far as I know, the 2017 claim is based on this year's stabilization of the average physician age in Ontario and a modest increase in the gross physician population (not the more accurate available physician work hours). I have seen no evidence to suggest that Ontario has dealt with the underlying problem of low physician training rate (approx. one half of the per capita rate in the USA and less than a quater of the European average), or the decrease in productivity of the physician work force. I used to have a great reference for that one; I'll have to add it later.

Additionally, I never trust estimates of physician supply excess, primarily because the estimates have been historically flawed. Additionally, the projected resolution of the physician shortage has been asserted by the physician's labour union (OMA/CMA) and the Ontario government both of whom have undeniable bias towards making such claims. For comparison, put some Canadian numbers into this recent report by the AAMC and you'll form radically different predictions.

[SIZE=-2]AAMC The Complexities of Physician Supply and Demand:
[/SIZE]
https://services.aamc.org/publicati...rsion122.pdf&prd_id=244&prv_id=299&pdf_id=122

Thanks for the replies! I am a little disappointed that none of the Irish schools have a course in psychic medicine, but oh well.

I am skeptical that the family doctor shortage will be solved in Ontario by 2017 as the gvt. claims, but it does not matter if it is actually solved, only that they believe it is solved.

Is it possible to work towards doing residency in three different locations? Like do electives in Canada and the U.S. and gain letters of rec in Ireland in order to hedge your bets?

 

[Der Kaiser]

Thanks for the info! I think no matter what going overseas is a risk, but its important to do a cost-benefit analysis as much as possible. Cost-benefit wise Ireland is the best option for me considering my stats.

 

[rayjay]

I realize this is in the UK/Ireland section but I was just curious as to why Australia rarely makes it into these types of discussions. I'm not downplaying the Irish/UK grads, don't get me wrong (I've just applied to RCSI and Trinity) but rarely do you see this type of discussion happening in the Aus forums, unless I've missed it.
Sadly I also don't see any Aus grads in those forums who are current physicians (again, unless I've missed it). I realize this is obviously not reflection on Aus success in matching to Canada...maybe they just post in Premed101 or other forums.

I only bring this up because I'm applying to BOTH Australia and Ireland and at this point I'm more likely to get Australia based on my stats (graduate degrees hold a lot of weight at UQ and Syd). These discussion obviously freak me out but they are necessary to keep me thinking realistically.

Any insights into the whole Australia vs Ireland issue would be great. I've read most of the posts/discussions regarding this. Sadly they all share one thing in common: rapidly degrading into a battle of opinions, exaggerations and insults.

Med2UCC I've read a good amount of your posts and you seem very knowledgeable on the subject, given that you've graduated from UCC (I assume ) and that you are currently practicing in Canada.

 

[med2UCC]

I realize this is in the UK/Ireland section but I was just curious as to why Australia rarely makes it into these types of discussions. I only bring this up because I'm applying to BOTH Australia and Ireland and at this point I'm more likely to get Australia based on my stats (graduate degrees hold a lot of weight at UQ and Syd). These discussion obviously freak me out but they are necessary to keep me thinking realistically.
Any insights into the whole Australia vs Ireland issue would be great. I've read most of the posts/discussions regarding this. Sadly they all share one thing in common: rapidly degrading into a battle of opinions, exaggerations and insults.
Med2UCC I've read a good amount of your posts and you seem very knowledgeable on the subject, given that you've graduated from UCC (I assume ) and that you are currently practicing in Canada.

I did indeed graduate, and am now (mostly) happily practicing in Canada. Thanks for the compliment - my knowledge base is based on experience and paying attention - I've tried to keep a finger on the pulse of what is going on in Ireland, and how the grads are matching. I also try to stay current on the physician shortage situation in Canada.
We have an Australian grad in our residency program now and she is doing very well. I'm not sure why you don't see more of the Aussie grads on here, and I don't know much about their matching stats, but it is certainly doable from my limited experience. I think the same advice regarding electives probably applies - do as many as you can, and do some in Canada and some in the US in programs that interest you both geographically and academically. Good luck
M

 

[rayjay]

Forgive me for askin but could you clarify "do as many as you can" for electives. Do you mean try and max out my electives in Canada or is there a way to do "extra" electives, for example doing an elective over and above the course requirements over your summer break.

Thanks

 

[BarryK]

jnuts,
Thanks for your input. You said...
>> However, if you start training in the States, even in a non-categorical program, you will be limited to the second round in all provinces.

Could you please elaboate on this... what is a non-categorial program?

 

[BarryK]

In addition to Ireland, I am considering schools in the UK as well (Bristol, Birmingham, Liverpool).

Does anyone know if there is something +/- about UK vs Ireland, when it comes to the 3 options we've been talking about in this thread:

i.e.
- staying in UK for postgrad
- matching to Canada
- matching to US

 

[jnuts]

I don't pretend to know very much about the US match. I do know it is not as straight forward as the Canadian one.

The term "Categorical" is used to refer to actually getting into a residency program dedicated to the field you have chosen - while Preliminary and Transitional are "Pre-residency".

Here's a decent summary I just found:

http://www.imgresidencytips.com/application-interviews/preliminary-year

jnuts,
Thanks for your input. You said...
>> However, if you start training in the States, even in a non-categorical program, you will be limited to the second round in all provinces.

Could you please elaboate on this... what is a non-categorial program?

 

[jnuts]

You said it yourself: the situation "may change in the future," and that's what new Irish students are gambling. The situation has changed while I've been in medical school here; residencies in Canada have become more accessible. It could easily have gone the other way. And watch out for sample bias; knowing several doesn't say how many unsuccessful applicants from this route you may not know.

All that said--if I were applying right now--I'd still go.

How can it be such a gamble if med2UCC says that the match rates are close to 100%? It may change in the future, but it still seems to me that students who put enough time into their studies typically match very well. Like i've said in other threads, I know several established surgeons, dermatologists, and family docs who all graduated from irish schools. The prospects seem good, for those who put effort into it... Not to mention the obvious doctor shortage.

Besides, if you half-ass your way through med school you dont deserve to match anyway.

 

[med2UCC]

Forgive me for askin but could you clarify "do as many as you can" for electives. Do you mean try and max out my electives in Canada or is there a way to do "extra" electives, for example doing an elective over and above the course requirements over your summer break.

Thanks

So, when I was at UCC we were stongly encouraged to only do one 4-week elective over our summer break, the reasoning being that 5th year was a tough year and you shouldn't burn up all your summer vacation working. I finished 4th year extremely disenchanted with med school and feeling burned out for a variety of reasons and did most of my summer vacation as electives that year. According to the school reasoning I should have started 5th year already burned out, but I found the elective I did challenging and interesting and it rekindled my passion. I don't think any of us who tried to cram as much elective as possible into that summer regrets the time spent there now.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, if you have a 12 week summer break, so electives for the 12 weeks. I have a friend who did an elective over her Christmas break (she took an extra week out at the beginning of winter term as we had no exams at UCC in this time period). She also managed to con her way into doing an elective at the end of 3rd year (most programs won't take you unless you are entering your final year of med school, and I know the program she got into works this way, but she put on her application that she was a 4th year, which technically she was since she passed her spring exams, and they never questioned which end of 4th year she was at) so in total she did 5. Other friends left as soon as finals were over, and came back a week late for term, and managed to cram in 4 electives.
Now, for perspective, all my elective time was spent in one program, the only program I applied to as it turned out, and I did fine on the match. It's a risky strategy, but at the time it made sense (I thought I had a wild card spot that in fact did not exist, but I didn't find that out until about 6 months into my residency, so it's just as well I never had to try to play that one). I am not advocating that approach, mind you; I was really lucky that it worked out for me. Residency is as much of a crap shoot as getting into med school really. Cood luck,
M

 

[rayjay]

Oh I had no idea you could do that! Thanks for the advice. I should email some of the Aus admin people and ask them if that is possible in Australia as well.

Thanks!

 

[Der Kaiser]

And for the record, I absolutely agree with med2UCC that the projected resolution of the physician shortage in Ontario is unlikely. I just don't have enough hard evidence to make that claim conclusively enough to make to assert here. As far as I know, the 2017 claim is based on this year's stabilization of the average physician age in Ontario and a modest increase in the gross physician population (not the more accurate available physician work hours). I have seen no evidence to suggest that Ontario has dealt with the underlying problem of low physician training rate (approx. one half of the per capita rate in the USA and less than a quater of the European average), or the decrease in productivity of the physician work force. I used to have a great reference for that one; I'll have to add it later.

Additionally, I never trust estimates of physician supply excess, primarily because the estimates have been historically flawed. Additionally, the projected resolution of the physician shortage has been asserted by the physician's labour union (OMA/CMA) and the Ontario government both of whom have undeniable bias towards making such claims. For comparison, put some Canadian numbers into this recent report by the AAMC and you'll form radically different predictions.

[SIZE=-2]AAMC The Complexities of Physician Supply and Demand:
[/SIZE]
https://services.aamc.org/publicati...rsion122.pdf&prd_id=244&prv_id=299&pdf_id=122

I read through the AAMC article. Very interesting and in depth analysis of supply and demand for doctors. Even with rosy assumptions regarding physician retirement and the number of medical graduates, they still project a physician shortage, largely because baby boomers will be consuming a huge chunk of medical resources when they are older. It strikes me that the Ontario government did not take this into account when stating that the family doctor shortage will be solved by 2017 (actually, how they will solve the specialist shortage is also beyond me, since the Niagara region itself needs like 11 or 12 psychiatrists). Nor did they take into account many other factors as far as I can tell (like the fact that the older generation works more hours, and when they retire more Med grads will be needed to replace them).

What I do not understand is why Canada is always so quick to say there is no shortage when Canada does not train many physicians per capita, while the United States is still worried about shortages when they are both training more doctors and admitting more IMGs for residency. Something is skewed in one of these markets. Considering that medicine is one of the most in demand products globally, I am very credulous when any government thinks they can satisfy the demand for it, unless of course they are limiting supply.

Anyway, my hope is that the United States acts on the AAMC's recommendations and opens up residency spots for IMGs (and makes it easier for them to get J-1 visas, especially Canadians!). Provincial governments in Canada never seem to act very rationally when it comes to healthcare, so I do not expect anything at all in that respect. I understand though that this problem goes right to the root of problems with our healthcare system and will certainly not be solved overnight (it's been about fifteen years since the physician shortage and that still has not been solved!).

 

[JGKT]

Hey Barry K,

There is a very high standard of med training in the UK.

There are perhaps fewer North American students studying in the UK compared to Ireland for a couple of reasons - 1. no similar dedicated recruitment like Atlantic Bridge in Ireland and 2. historically bad exchange rate against GBP, making UK med school very expensive.

I believe I was one of the first Canadians at Kings - several more were in lower years by the time I graduated, but I did not know them.

As a Canadian, you will be able to complete the Foundation Years in the UK (the first two years of general residency prior to specialisation). If you wish to progress in specialty training in the UK, it is best to have UK citizenship or right of abode (ie no visa requirements). I managed to get my UK citizenship during med school (through my partner) and am now a radiology specialist registrar in London....best decision I ever made.

The ROS was introduced while I was in med school and I basically decided to forget about Canada and focus on getting the best training position available in the UK. My partner is also established in a career here, so I had less of a desire to return to Canada.

My advice to anyone thinking about medicine school now.....study in the country where you want to live and/or make sure you don't have immigration issues impeding your progress.

 

[BarryK]

>>> . If you wish to progress in specialty training in the UK, it is best to have UK citizenship or right of abode (ie no visa requirements). I managed to get my UK citizenship during med school (through my partner) and am now a radiology specialist registrar in London....best decision I ever made.

Thanks for the reply JGKT!

For continuing on in the UK for specialization, assuming that you have done MedShool in the UK.

- for an Irish Citizen (Canadian born, but Irish Citizenship through parents, and an EU passport holder), who has gone to MedSchool and Foundation years in the UK, and wants to continue in specialty training in the UK, would they have the same 'chances' as a British Citizen, or does the UK Citizenship get a higher consideration than an Irish Citizen would for a UK specialty (assuming they went to the same UK MedSchools)?

 

[JGKT]

Hi Barry K,

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure whether (all things being equal) UK citizens receive preferential treatment (tacit or otherwise) over EU citizens. Best thing for you to do would be to contact the London Deanery (or other UK regional deaneries) and find out exactly what their policy is. UK/EEA citizens are prioritised over non UK/non EEA citizens.

Cheers, J

 

[jnuts]

If they are doing something like that, I have it on good authority that it is very illegal in the EU.

Hi Barry K,

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure whether (all things being equal) UK citizens receive preferential treatment (tacit or otherwise) over EU citizens. Best thing for you to do would be to contact the London Deanery (or other UK regional deaneries) and find out exactly what their policy is. UK/EEA citizens are prioritised over non UK/non EEA citizens.

Cheers, J

 

[JGKT]

Okay, like I said, best to contact the relevant deanery and confirm how your immigration status will affect your chances of obtaining specialty training in the UK.

FYI, competition for specialty training posts is becoming increasingly competitive. For radiology, last year in London there were about 8 applications for every spot (with 4 interviews granted per spot). (This year, the number of London spots have decreased by about 1/2.) I applied to various deaneries and only received an interview in London. I also applied to various deaneries for core medical training (internal medicine) as a back up and only received an interview in London...and wasn't offered a training position in CMT....I was shocked by this! I did put more effort into my rads application and had endovascular research and had done an interventional radiology elective....So my advice is (irrespective of where you come from) make sure your application demonstrates genuine interest in the specialty for which you are applying....same for back-ups.

Also heard from a consultant that about 1/3 of last year's F2s are not in UK specialty training (some have gone abroad to NZ/Australia for further training, some are in trust grade posts waiting to reapply for specialty training and some have dropped out completely).

J

 

[med2UCC]

Hello Med2UCC,

Concerning NUI Galway, do you have opinion of how many N. Americans they accept per year in their medical program nowadays? It seems historically low and, unfortunately, no one currently studying from there posts here with regularity.

Sorry, no clue. I suspect it is still on the low side though, as there are not many posting from there and that suggests not many there. UCC seems under-represented on SDN at the moment though, so that may not be an accurate estimate. You could try asking the AB people. Cheers,
M

 

[Jocks]

Hello Med2UCC,

Concerning NUI Galway, do you have opinion of how many N. Americans they accept per year in their medical program nowadays? It seems historically low and, unfortunately, no one currently studying from there posts here with regularity.

I've been told that this years 1st year class has 45 NA's with a look to increasing it to 60. This isn't verified though.

 

[Valadhiel]

"Concerning NUI Galway, do you have opinion of how many N. Americans they accept per year in their medical program nowadays? It seems historically low and, unfortunately, no one currently studying from there posts here with regularity. "

Doesn't seem to be that many. I'm at Newcastle, and there are probably around 10 of us in all the years together. Not sure why that is, I don't think it's that difficult to get accepted. Although really wish I had a UK/EU visa atm though...

 

[idesofmarch]

"Concerning NUI Galway, do you have opinion of how many N. Americans they accept per year in their medical program nowadays? It seems historically low and, unfortunately, no one currently studying from there posts here with regularity. "

Doesn't seem to be that many. I'm at Newcastle, and there are probably around 10 of us in all the years together. Not sure why that is, I don't think it's that difficult to get accepted. Although really wish I had a UK/EU visa atm though...

In terms of competitiveness, I wonder how the schools in the UK and Ireland compare for international students. For example, this is what one UK school told me:

"There are only 19 places on the medical programme for overseas candidates. We receive around 600 applications each year for these places and therefore the competition is very strong indeed."

 

[leorl]

Just a quick answer to the OP. If you happen not to match in either the US or Canada, some people find training posts and jobs in Australia / New zealand. You can also try for an Irish Intern spot, and from there on try for Irish schemes or locum jobs. As I said in a previous post though, depending what goes on in a certain year, Irish internship is not a 100% guaranteed backup for failing to match in North America.