What does it take to match at a Top 10 program?

[ivybme]

I am an M3 thinking about dual-applying to IM/Rad Onc. Given the issues with job constraints these days, I am still curious what it takes to match at the Top 10 programs, or even better, more specifically the Big 3 (MDACC, HROP, MSKCC). If I dual-apply, I'd only apply to the top 10-20 programs, so it would be interesting to hear what it takes to apply to the best programs.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

I am an M3 thinking about dual-applying to IM/Rad Onc. Given the issues with job constraints these days, I am still curious what it takes to match at the Top 10 programs, or even better, more specifically the Big 3 (MDACC, HROP, MSKCC). If I dual-apply, I'd only apply to the top 10-20 programs, so it would be interesting to hear what it takes to apply to the best programs.

OLD SCHOOL! Love it.

Honestly, I'm not sure anyone can answer that right now. We'll need to see what the outcome of the upcoming Match is.

Traditionally, we're talking 250+ Step 1, published research, strong recommendation letters from well known faculty.

For perspective, I matched to a top tier program in the Golden Era. I had a 260+ Step 1, a PhD, a dozen publications (half dozen first author), junior AOA, etc etc - I received no interview invites from the Big 3.

 

[Gfunk6]

I am still curious what it takes to match at the Top 10 programs, or even better, more specifically the Big 3 (MDACC, HROP, MSKCC).

Answer: A Pulse

Thank you folks, I'll be here all week!

Serious Answer: The top 3-10 programs will probably be the least impacted by the RO contraction so I think what elementaryschooleconomics posted above is fairly accurate. I would also thrown in that working with faculty at the place you are most interested in (e.g. MS-4 elective, research project) will go a long way establishing you as a known quantity.

 

[RickyScott]

really would caution you about thinking in terms of “top”. Probably around 20 programs where name will have no bearing on getting job. Academic jobs will look at research and pp will care about personality refs.

 

[deleted774703]

I am an M3 thinking about dual-applying to IM/Rad Onc. Given the issues with job constraints these days, I am still curious what it takes to match at the Top 10 programs, or even better, more specifically the Big 3 (MDACC, HROP, MSKCC). If I dual-apply, I'd only apply to the top 10-20 programs, so it would be interesting to hear what it takes to apply to the best programs.

1) Do well on your boards. I know MSKCC isn't interviewing the 200 Step 1 ppl like the middle of the pack RO programs this year
-Additionally, doing well on your boards will set you up for a very good IM Residency as well

2) Do combined RT + novel drug research. Avoid ANY random advanced RT or physics projects
-Since you're dipping your two into different lakes, you need some research that you can talk about at either interview and seem believable

I personally would steer clear if I was you, but since you've asked a specific question that is my best advice

 

[bluebubbles]

Do well on your clinical rotations, as in honors medicine & surgery. This is arguably more important for top IM residencies than top rad onc residencies. Last time I checked, UCSF internal medicine didn’t interview anyone who wasn’t clinical AOA.

A word of caution.

Even if top rad onc residencies aren’t impacted as much by the nosediving job market in terms of med student applicant quality, you can bet that the attending/PP prospects of even the big 3’s grads will be affected. Whereas for internal med at a top program, you’d be playing into a rising job market as a clinician, and much rosier opportunities later in your career.

May the odds be ever if your favor.

 

[ivybme]

I personally would steer clear if I was you, but since you've asked a specific question that is my best advice

By steer clear do you mean dual-applying, or specifically applying to rad onc altogether?

 

[radOresident]

I would steer clear of rad onc altogether. Even graduating from a big 3 institution will not matter five years down the line. You will be unemployed

 

[RickyScott]

Do internal med and then apply. You will walk into the program of your choice in 3 years.

 

[medgator]

I would steer clear of rad onc altogether. Even graduating from a big 3 institution will not matter five years down the line. You will be unemployed

Or exploited employed, if lucky

 

[medgator]

Do internal med and then apply. You will walk into the program of your choice in 3 years.

Good option with a fallback imo. Hospitalists make the same as starting RO in some places

 

[thecarbonionangle]

OLD SCHOOL! Love it.

Honestly, I'm not sure anyone can answer that right now. We'll need to see what the outcome of the upcoming Match is.

Traditionally, we're talking 250+ Step 1, published research, strong recommendation letters from well known faculty.

For perspective, I matched to a top tier program in the Golden Era. I had a 260+ Step 1, a PhD, a dozen publications (half dozen first author), junior AOA, etc etc - I received no interview invites from the Big 3.

know of multiple people with not even half of that at “top” programs. These people are often there through connections, nepotism.

 

[deleted1002574]

How do people afford a gap year in NYC?

 

[RickyScott]

How do people afford a gap year in NYC?

Doing a gap year at this point is pure stupidity.

 

[medgator]

How do people afford a gap year in NYC?

Ramen and subleasing a closet?

 

[thecarbonionangle]

How do people afford a gap year in NYC?

daddy is a rad onc

 

[deleted774703]

I would never do RO if I was in medicine school now

studying minute details of trials is truly tedious as I’ve gotten older.

You have to take 4 board exams, physics and rad bio honestly super boring

At least before the Light at the end of tunnel was bright with big payday and interesting day to day life

but that’s dimmed lately.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I would never do RO if I was in medicine school now

studying minute details of trials is truly tedious as I’ve gotten older.

You have to take 4 board exams, physics and rad bio honestly super boring

At least before the Light at the end of tunnel was bright with big payday and interesting day to day life

but that’s dimmed lately.

I agree that our boards is a giant negative. People have been taking difficult weed out exams for a while and the thought of that many tests while orther specialties have consolidated and gotten rid of oral boards will absolutely be a factor. Most of the stuff in the exams is irrelevant trivia. As i have gotten older, i too have gotten burned out and just tired of it. The issue is so many people in our field like to pride themselves in the difficulty of our board process, “separate the men from the boys”, thinking people are going to respect us. Then you get out in practice and realize med oncs and surg oncs own us, and they don’t take as many boards. Pretty funny stuff

 

[evilbooyaa]

I would steer clear of rad onc altogether. Even graduating from a big 3 institution will not matter five years down the line. You will be unemployed

Oh come on. This is crazy hyperbole.

HROP, MDACC, MSKCC grads are not going to go unemployed in 5 years.

The issue of unemployment or underemployment will likely be worst in graduates from lower-tier residency programs.

This is the level of hyperbole that makes people take SDN not seriously. Be better.

 

[deleted1002574]

Oh come on. This is crazy hyperbole.

HROP, MDACC, MSKCC grads are not going to go unemployed in 5 years.

The issue of unemployment or underemployment will likely be worst in graduates from lower-tier residency programs.

This is the level of hyperbole that makes people take SDN not seriously. Be better.

Exactly. Makes SDN look bad. We have a lot of cranks and hyperbole that lead to eye rolling.

 

[medgator]

Oh come on. This is crazy hyperbole.

HROP, MDACC, MSKCC grads are not going to go unemployed in 5 years.

The issue of unemployment or underemployment will likely be worst in graduates from lower-tier residency programs.

This is the level of hyperbole that makes people take SDN not seriously. Be better.

You decide into go pp in a different part of the country, you just might. Pedigree won't always help you there.

No one within 1-2 hours of me in pp trained at a top 5 program. Plenty trained in the middle (and even a few in the "bottom" per the recent thread).

 

[Krukenberg]

No one within 1-2 hours of me in pp trained at a top 5 program. Plenty trained in the middle (and even a few in the "bottom" per the recent thread).

I mean that could just be mix of self-selection and the fact that the #of top 5 grads compared to the total # of rad oncs is not large. top 5 grads who do PP tend to go to the most desirable cities.

 

[medgator]

I mean that could just be mix of self-selection and the fact that the #of top 5 grads compared to the total # of rad oncs is not large. top 5 grads who do PP tend to go to the most desirable cities.

Yup. So if you want to relocate back closer to home, outside a big city pedigree really becomes irrelevant.

In other words, top 5 might help you get academics, might help you get into a desirable city. But beyond that there is no advantage if you decide to go into pp.

Personally, if I knew wanted to do pp in a given area and there was no connections to a top 5-10 program, I'd stick to a midtier or lower tier place where there might be connections, and a focus on good clinical training and networking early on, instead of research heavy places

 

[evilbooyaa]

You decide into go pp in a different part of the country, you just might. Pedigree won't always help you there.

No one within 1-2 hours of me in pp trained at a top 5 program. Plenty trained in the middle (and even a few in the "bottom" per the recent thread).

Sure, they may not get to their desired geography, but they're not going to be unemployed.

 

[medgator]

Sure, they may not get to their desired geography, but they're not going to be unemployed.

In some ways, no one will ever be truly "unemployed". Exploited? Underpaid? Sure. Heck that happened to plenty of us out of training a decade ago we had rampant expansion

 

[metview]

Doesn't take much to match to a top 15 program these days. All you need a is a >235 step, >2 pubs/posters, and 3-4/6 honors on MS3 rotations.

Just 2 years ago, you needed a > 250 step, >5 pubs/posters, 5/6 honors and even then your chances were mediocre.

 

[RickyScott]

In some ways, no one will ever be truly "unemployed". Exploited? Underpaid? Sure. Heck that happened to plenty of us out of training a decade ago we had rampant expansion

I am not so sure. seems like this could happen in 5 years that at very least some new docs will have to do part time locums in various parts of country or have to do multiple fellowships.

 

[steponecloser]

Doesn't take much to match to a top 15 program these days. All you need a is a >235 step, >2 pubs/posters, and 3-4/6 honors on MS3 rotations.

Just 2 years ago, you needed a > 250 step, >5 pubs/posters, 5/6 honors and even then your chances were mediocre.

That's not true. I matched last year with a >250 step 1 (>260 step 2), >5 pubs/posters, and 5/6 honors exactly, from a top medical school, and barely cracked a few top 10 interviews.

I do know most everyone that matched at the top 3, and all of them are extraordinary people that I imagine are still the cream of the crop of all medical school graduates.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

That's not true. I matched last year with a >250 step 1 (>260 step 2), >5 pubs/posters, and 5/6 honors exactly, from a top medical school, and barely cracked a few top 10 interviews.

I do know most everyone that matched at the top 3, and all of them are extraordinary people that I imagine are still the cream of the crop of all medical school graduates.

agreed. Personality and letters do matter Too