What do you think of this? Needing a PHD for NP?

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Not all of the DNP programs are online. Many classroom/clinical programs exist. This is exactly the problem I have with the DNP. It does nothing to expand my scope of practice, does not guarantee me more money, and is not a standardized program.

I agree that the idea of getting your DNP online is lame.

I guess I'm still a little taken back by the vitriol shown towards midlevels by some of the medical students, residents and junior physicians here. Up until joining this BB, my personal experience of working closely with physicians in the midlevel role (as a student) had always been a positive and collaborative one. There was no turf war. No one felt their job was in jeopardy. There were enough sick people to go around.

I get that the DNP is viewed as a threat to physicians. I don't get why midlevels practicing safely within state-board mandated guidelines, certified in their specialty are viewed as unsafe and threatening.

Honestly, I don't think anyone here (or most of us, at least) has a problem with nurse practitioners. And in the clinical setting, I doubt there's much if any friction. But the reason an NP with an online degree inflated to Doctor of NP is threatening to physicians is that the leaders of the movement are saying they're doctors. Or better than doctors. And those state board mandated guidelines and certification are hot items of contention. Should they be overseen by the board of medicine? Board of nursing (which many around here hate)? What is their scope? How easy would it be for that scope to expand? It's a mine field, and we're scared about all the fallout that may result.

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Honestly, I don't think anyone here (or most of us, at least) has a problem with nurse practitioners. And in the clinical setting, I doubt there's much if any friction. But the reason an NP with an online degree inflated to Doctor of NP is threatening to physicians is that the leaders of the movement are saying they're doctors. Or better than doctors. And those state board mandated guidelines and certification are hot items of contention. Should they be overseen by the board of medicine? Board of nursing (which many around here hate)? What is their scope? How easy would it be for that scope to expand? It's a mine field, and we're scared about all the fallout that may result.

If medical training has gotten longer and harder because studies have shown that there were deficiencies in this or that, then similar something has to happen with NP's -- scientifically sound studies about autonomous NP outcomes.

That's how you challenge scope expansion by nurses -- by reams of evidence to show how the public is being duped and being put in danger. It's sad to think that we spend more time and money studying how if a drug will give a man a prolonged erection than we do studying how safe are these NP's? How many MI's, strokes, cancers have been missed by them? How many diagnoses have been delayed because they didn't know what to look for until it was too late? If there is public outcry from a small increase in risk of heart attacks and strokes from Vioxx, why shouldn't there be one from NP's who don't even know basic medical education as they claim?

As the article on malpractice by nurses points out, NP's are getting sued for malpractice and insurance companies are raising their premiums. So this is happening. Next thing we need to do is quantify how much at risk we're putting the public. The public has the right know if they are to make informed decisions.

We're not the only ones seeing this on this board. Physicians everywhere, including radiologists over at auntminnie.com, have as well. It's time that physicians speak up for the sake of public safety. We need to demand real, scientifically sound studies about NP outcomes.

Got a phone call from a NP who practices independently. She had ordered a pelvic ultrasound on a patient and was perusing my dictated report. I was queried about the exotic diagnoses of uterine fibroids and endometriomas. She had never heard of either.... What in the world was she to do with this patient????

I am becoming increasingly alarmed about sharing liability with these " colleagues" who are now firmly embedded in
the primary care arena. They have 2 years of formal training and many are not terribly bright. A lot of them are operating with little ( if any ) physician oversight.

What to do? Refuse their elective referrals?
Insist that any of their patients who have real pathology see an MD specialist and request a copy of their referral letter ?
Document in your report you have discussed the case with Muffy Jackson NP and told her to refer the patient ?
 
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I guess I'm still a little taken back by the vitriol shown towards midlevels by some of the medical students, residents and junior physicians here..

We're just the tip of the iceberg here. Many physicians and aspiring physicians hold similar views, especially after they have been informed about what Mundinger et al are up to.

Mundinger et al may have just stirred up a hornet's nest and it may in the end bite the nurses in the rear. NP's need to recognize a few undeniable facts 1) you're practicing medicine 2) not much scrutiny in the past from the medical establishment because they helped create the midlevel profession. If the medical establishment starts to challenge NP's label as practicing "advanced" nursing instead of medicine, NP's probably will be overseen by BOM or worse both BOM and BON. If real studies are done to measure NP outcomes, I believe that NP's will have longer training and restricted scope. I hope both come true.
 
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I'm a nurse and will either be an MD/DO or DNP one day.

Mundiger screwed future DNP's with that article, but she doesn't represent all nurse practitioners.

There DEFINATELY needs to be some standardization in nursing education from the LPN through the APN level, especially when the ability to diagnose and prescribe is granted.

Finally, many NP's don't want to become private practitioners. Heck, some of us (future NP's) would even do a residency to work as a midlevel (1 year cardiology, hospitalist, etc.) and then start working under a physician. Many of us know that it is ridiculous to compare the training of a physician to that of a DNP. Even the Pharm D's, DPT's, etc. don't claim to have the knowledge that a residency trained physician does. Why would people think that nurses are any different?

If I wanted true automony I would (may) apply to medical school. Period.

CrazyPremed
 
I guess I'm still a little taken back by the vitriol shown towards midlevels by some of the medical students, residents and junior physicians here. Up until joining this BB, my personal experience of working closely with physicians in the midlevel role (as a student) had always been a positive and collaborative one. There was no turf war. No one felt their job was in jeopardy. There were enough sick people to go around..


You can thank Mundinger (however is spelled) for DNP's having a bad rap. To go ahead and say that DNP are better trained than physicians when everyone knows thats not correct is looking for big trouble.

I have alot of respect for nurses but Mundinger is not helping them. Go to the general residency board and take a look at this topic, everyone is flaming Mundinger.

So thank Mundinger for this problem!!!
 
I was at the cafe at OSU Med Center the other day and saw a lady in line next to me. Her white coat said "Dr. Xxxxx" and in very small print underneath is simply said "DNP." :rolleyes:
 
I was at the cafe at OSU Med Center the other day and saw a lady in line next to me. Her white coat said "Dr. Xxxxx" and in very small print underneath is simply said "DNP." :rolleyes:

Good lord.

It seems so rude to have to say this, but someone needs to put these people in their place.
 
I agree with you farnsworth. That DNP should have an identifier under here name. I was doing a rotation at a Hospital eyecare center a while ago and the attending that I was shadowing had "Dr. So and So, Optometrist" on his coat. The Ophthalmology attending that I was shadowing had, "Dr. So and So, Eye Surgery" on his coat. No mistake there. Only Doctors whether Medical/Osteopathic or limited license docs such as optometrists, podiatrists, dentists, etc.....could wear a full length white coat with "Dr" on it at this place. You have to recognize with respect a doctorate title that was earned by folks that have earned a dedicated 4 year clinical or academic doctorate (MD,OD, DO, DDS, DPM, PhD, etc....) But having a 33 hour "tack on" credential that has an "online" clinical medicine component (like the DNP does) is a major stretch and suspicous. At my school myself and all the OD students (optometry), DO students (medical school), DMD students (Dental school), respectively have 4 clinical doctorate programs---all of which are intense having 20-25 semester hours of didactic and later didactic and clinical course work each semester--year round. That lady you sat down next to should have " Nurse Practitioner" on her coat. But she is in a realm of treating systemic disease with her MD/DO physcian bosses and her coat would confuse the hell out of patients having just DNP on it. There is no "real" designation of what she is to "joe patient" who understands words like, doctor, optometrist, dentist, podiatrist, nurse, etc.......
 
Ha, if you are in the hospital and you see somebody wearing a white coat, 95% of the time it is a nurse.
 
Ha, if you are in the hospital and you see somebody wearing a white coat, 95% of the time it is a nurse.

maybe where you are.
in my current facility, most of what i see
walking around in long white coats are those
from phlebotomy, lab, and other non-clinical "officials"...;)
 
Ladies and Gents - I have been enjoying this topic and see it as a very important decision point in upcoming health care 'socialization' and agree that the economics of the NP will likely place the cart ahead of the pony...

I have been very impressed at the implementation of the PA. I think the NP is a great role developed by the ANA but I do not feel it is defined, limited, or enforced at a national level within the job, the education or implementation. Granted this is not a dig on NP's I have personally only had good things to say about them. But the collaboration of the ANA with other organizations and giving them a more uniform scope of work, a more defined curriculum (there is a HUGE variance within approved programs...) and feel it will place them at risk with future law suits by being extended past the initial intentions. On the other side of the coin the AMA might benefit from coordinating the use of NP's and DNP's actively as to assist in certain areas and avoid a role collision. These are my only personal views and hope to continue the discussion you have been conducting!

Please look below I have pasted links to the AMA's resolution 214 and 303 which is to define the use of doctor in the medical work place and also to help define the use of DNP and the nomenclature of 'resident and residency'. I have also included the links to the ANA's response on each of the AMA's resolutions.

I hope that the good of the patient is heavily weighed upon as with the court system it is so easy to redefine a scope or definition and ..... lead us down a path that will be hard to return from.:scared:

AMA resolution 303

ANA Response to AMA Resolution 303
Re:American Medical Association House of Delegates Resolution 303 (A-08)
Protection of the Titles "Doctor," "Resident" and "Residency"


AMA resolution 214

ANA Response to AMA Resolution 214
Re: American Medical Association House of Delegates Resolution 214 (A-08)
"Doctor of Nursing Practice"
 
Incredible that the ANA says that AMA shouldnt tell them what to do but they are producing DNP's to be "doctors" and practice independently, in other words they are telling the AMA that they are preparing nurses to be doctors.

This is only getting better, we can all thank this lady call Mundinger for all the battles coming in the next few months/years.
 
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AMA resolution 303

ANA Response to AMA Resolution 303
Re:American Medical Association House of Delegates Resolution 303 (A-08)
Protection of the Titles "Doctor," "Resident" and "Residency"


AMA resolution 214

ANA Response to AMA Resolution 214
Re: American Medical Association House of Delegates Resolution 214 (A-08)
"Doctor of Nursing Practice"

Good to see that the AMA is taking notice. However, I don't believe that passing resolutions does any good.

We need well-designed studies on autonomous NP outcomes. We need to press the medical organizations to challenge whether NP's who are practicing medicine should be overseen by BON's and not BOM's. There's still a lot that the AMA can and should do.
 
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We need well-designed studies on autonomous NP outcomes.
Exactly.

It is up to the NP supporters to provide peer-reviewed empirically supported data that shows it is safe, feasible, and meets a need. If they can do that, then a move towards autonomy makes a lot more sense. Things can't be done because someone thinks they can do it, they need to show that it can be done.
 
I'm so touched that the AMA is so concerned about the looming nursing shortage that they use that as a reason to roadblock the DNP degree.......

As if millions of nurses will suddenly want to add another 4-5 years of education and leave bedside nursing altogether.

Maybe the AMA has some ideas for improving the unsafe staffing issues and working conditions that have caused 50% of active-licensed RNs to leave nursing altogether. That's our nursing shortage, right there......
 
Haha holy crap, this is an actual excerpt from one of the official ANA responses:
In our society, both nationally and internationally, the term "doctor" has been used for centuries for teachers, scholars, and persons of higher learning. The word "doctor" dates from the 14th century, and originates from the Latin word "[FONT=Arial,Arial]docere.," which means "to teach." One of the common and accepted definitions of "doctor" is a person who has earned the highest, or one of the highest, academic degrees conferred by a university. Thus the need to create the term "medical doctor," to differentiate physicians from those holding PhD’s and other doctorate degrees, such as psychologists, optometrists, scientific researchers, chiropractors, and other professionals who interact with patients and can be introduced and identified as "Dr. ________." Those who have earned a doctorate degree may be called a "doctor." There is no legitimate reason to exclude nurses from this practice.

...Therefore we conclude that the use of doctor is appropriate for these individuals who have earned the highest or one of the highest academic degrees conferred by a university and there is no legitimate reason to exclude nurses from this practice.

Yikes!

 
I have the same solution as the ANA.

Open new nursing schools, expand the number of faculty, and flood the market with young nurses who will work for whatever the hospital offers.

Alternatively, import a million foreign nurses.

It's worked elsewhere, and it will work here to.

There are a lot of reasons to laugh at the DNP idea; you are right, the nursing shortage is not one of them.

it's not the number of nursing schools that's the problem, it's the number of applicants/graduates. they can't fill the gap. there's a shortage (well different from the early 80s). i don't think you can fill the gap fast enough. and that can run into a problem where there will be schools/programs/instructors/etc... that will want to push students along just to fill slots and numbers and decrease the shortage. this is where it becomes dangerous and is the current mindset in many facilities/programs. increasing numbers for the sake of it is NOT the answer. it's like forcing someone to eat liver because you say it's good for you. not a good idea.
 
As has been addressed before, there is a serious shortage of qualified instructors to teach. Students are being turned away because of this. There are plenty of nurses with current licenses who are choosing not to work at the bedside for reasons that have been addressed many times before as well.

A nursing professor often makes half of what a staff nurse makes. It's hard to sell a career in academia to someone and expect them to be compensated so poorly.

Importing nurses does little to solve the problems with why our own nurses are leaving or finding careers outside the hospital environment. It would take some examination on how physicians have contributed to this issue; they certainly aren't entirely to blame, but do bear some of the responsibility. Unfortunately, that's the part no one in the medical community wants to look at.

Younger nurses aren't as pliant as you might think they are, Tired. They know they are in demand, and they come out of nursing school with the attitude that they are going to get what they want, and if the hospital doesn't give them what they want, there's always another facility to go to just down the road. Times have changed. The old days of nurses being servile handmaidens are long-gone.
 
I like to think that SDN has played a part in informing and educating physicians and the public about the DNP movement. Maybe SDN even had a small part in making the AMA take notice. :thumbup:

If you care about the future of medicine, all medical students, residents, and attendings need to keep up the pressure!!
 
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Academic physicians often make half as much, if not less, than a private physician in the same field, yet there is no reportable shortage (yet) of academic physicians. I realize they make more money overall than nurses, but if you are talking relative amounts between academics and private, the situation is close to equivalent.

ditto pa school faculty. I looked into a full time clinical coordinator/emergency medicine course director position a few yrs ago....48k.....at the time I was making 125k working full time....needless to say I didn't apply.....
 
Younger nurses aren't as pliant as you might think they are, Tired. They know they are in demand, and they come out of nursing school with the attitude that they are going to get what they want, and if the hospital doesn't give them what they want, there's always another facility to go to just down the road. Times have changed. The old days of nurses being servile handmaidens are long-gone.

As I explained to one of my "old skool" nursing instructors last year, my generation and those that came after mine were raised to be mercenaries [or mursenaries]. We have seen those before us lose jobs for companies they spent their entire adult life working for and we know that any company would gladly get rid of us if it helped them out financially.

As a result, if we don't like how we are being treated, we walk. One of the reasons I am going to switch to midlevel anesthesia [as an AA] is because the payscale for nurses in my area is done in such a manner that it selects for individuals that would rather work slow [to get more hours] and get rewarded for seniority [rather than ability]. I work in hospital-based, outpatient pain management, and when I suggested that we get productivity bonuses to reflect the massive amount of monies we are now generating, all I got was blank glances and giggles.
 
As has been addressed before, there is a serious shortage of qualified instructors to teach. Students are being turned away because of this. There are plenty of nurses with current licenses who are choosing not to work at the bedside for reasons that have been addressed many times before as well.

A nursing professor often makes half of what a staff nurse makes. It's hard to sell a career in academia to someone and expect them to be compensated so poorly.
Just to be a little contrary, how much of this nursing instructor shortage is a contrivance of nursing academia. The degree requirements for nursing instructors are pretty steep. They leave out all ADN nurses and many BSNs. There are a lot of ADNs that are teaching in LPN or CNA programs that are more than qualified to teach nursing but are not allowed to. Implicit in the discussion of the DNP is the production of more doctorally prepared nurses which academia believes will finally allow them to make the BSN (or MSN) the entry level degree for nursing (in my opinion).

The other issue is that its hard to tell what the nursing shortage is part of the current economic situation. There are anecdotal accounts of regional surpluses. We're both old enough I think to remember the last nursing "surplus".


Importing nurses does little to solve the problems with why our own nurses are leaving or finding careers outside the hospital environment. It would take some examination on how physicians have contributed to this issue; they certainly aren't entirely to blame, but do bear some of the responsibility. Unfortunately, that's the part no one in the medical community wants to look at.

Younger nurses aren't as pliant as you might think they are, Tired. They know they are in demand, and they come out of nursing school with the attitude that they are going to get what they want, and if the hospital doesn't give them what they want, there's always another facility to go to just down the road. Times have changed. The old days of nurses being servile handmaidens are long-gone.
While physicians and other providers may bear some of the blame, nursing has to also accept blame. I see this much more in an academic environment than non academic. While, I'm not going to claim that nursing invented horizontal violence, the volumes of studies done on the subject in nursing speak to the problem.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Academic physicians often make half as much, if not less, than a private physician in the same field, yet there is no reportable shortage (yet) of academic physicians. I realize they make more money overall than nurses, but if you are talking relative amounts between academics and private, the situation is close to equivalent.

For a nurse to go into debt to get PhD to teach and make maybe 45K a year...that's craziness. It would be really difficult just to try to pay back the loans on that income.

I realize it is relative, but in terms of real $$, it is consistently given as a reason why nurses choose not to go into teaching.
 
While physicians and other providers may bear some of the blame, nursing has to also accept blame. I see this much more in an academic environment than non academic. While, I'm not going to claim that nursing invented horizontal violence, the volumes of studies done on the subject in nursing speak to the problem.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Nowhere did I say that nursing was blameless. I just continue to be amazed at the way others reject/deflect when it's pointed out how they too have contributed to the problems we are seeing. It's not just due to one issue or because of one group. Since you mentioned horizontal violence, you might be interested to find out what kinds of situations engender, even encourage horizontal violence. Again, it's not all just nurses.
 
Yes, but into how much debt are they? I'm seriously asking. If a PhD in nursing is like a lot of PhDs in other fields, they can actually MAKE money while they are in it. They receive stipends for teaching classes, etc. Are nursing PhDs different?

There are many additional expenses for nursing PhD's, such as traveling to and from the ivory towers.
 
If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school.
Really? Howz bout if I want to be a psychologist, or a podiatrist or a dentist or a physical therapist or involved as a primary investigator in research or enter into the dozens of other health care fields where a doctorate is the minimum level for entry.

It seems to me that many erroneously feel that somehow medicine controls nursing, nursing practice, advance nursing practice and health care in general including which health profession may obtain a terminal doctorate degree for health care practitioners.

Perhaps that may have been in the past, but no longer. If medicine truly had any clout to do anything about nurse practitioner autonomy, there wouldn't be 23 states (and soon to be 50) in the country where APN's practice independently without the need for any physician involvement in care. Remember, NP's have only been around for the last 40 years or so, and have transitioned from what physicians would like to see again (hand maidens) to accepted and providers of quality primary care services.

-Dick
 
Good to see that the AMA is taking notice. However, I don't believe that passing resolutions does any good.

I completely agree with you. Physicians have absolutely no place or authority in the regulation of nursing practice or being as arrogant as to suggest who and which settings those with clinical-based doctorates may use their earned title.

-Dick
 
But what medicine does control is the practice of MEDICINE. This is why the advanced practice nurses go out of their way to say that they do NOT practice medicine, they practice nursing. Instead of "diagnosing", they "recognize disease states". Dr. Mundinger has begun the paper-thin parsing of words so that the APNs stay out of the reach of the AMA and boards of medicine. Everyone knows what they are doing, but they do it anyway.

I'm not sure who Dr. Mundinger is but it sounds like this is an enlightened individual. I'll help bring you and the others on this forum up to speed. As an educator and clinician I am very good at remediation of discrepancies in the areas of irregularities of thought process and logic.

Physicians practice medicine. Nurses (and advance practice nurses) practice NURSING. When a physician prescribes an antibiotic, this is a function of MEDICINE. When a dentist prescribes an antibiotic, this is a function of DENTISTRY. When a podiatrist prescribes an antibiotic, this is a function of podiatry. When an advance practice nurse prescribes an antibiotic, this is a function of NURSING. What's the difference? The functions are all inclusive within the respective disciplines of practice and not exclusive to medicine. Hopefully you are on the same page now with this logic, unless you would care to beef it out with dentist, optometrists, podiatrists, PT's, OT's, ST's and the others who prescribe as a domain of their respective practice and not medicine.

The error in your thinking relates to your system of beliefs that the act of (in this case) prescribing is exclusively a function of medicine when it is not. When a nurse practitioner diagnoses disease and prescribes, he or she is doing so as a function of the practice of nursing--not medicine. True, nursing diagnosis consists of documenting human response to disease and not the disease itself. Perhaps this underscores the holistic nature of nursing practice and why more and more consumers are choosing APN's over physicians for their primary care needs.

-Dick
 
So for you then there are no limits to what a nurse is allowed to do? If a nurse performs brain surgery, that is a function of nursing, not of neurosurgery? If a nurse performs an appendectomy, that is a function of nursing and not a surgeon? Your logic, while I agree on some levels, is not complete. It is not the practitioner, but the realm of the intervention that is important. What if a dentist prescribes antibiotics for a patient which is not related to his/her teeth? Say a leg ulcer. A function of dentistry? There have been reports of dentists performing calf implants. Yet another function of dentistry?

There has to be limits somewhere. Deregulation is dangerous. Check the mortgage crisis.

Yikes an advance practice nurse performing neurosurgery or appendectomies? An Advanced Practice Nurse performing an appendectomy or neurosurgery is on the same level as a family practice physician doing the same. Both are untrained and unskilled to do such a function, and consequently would be considered to be contravention of acceptable standard of care. I'm not sure if dentists prescribe antibiotics for leg ulcers, either, but I would think that its not included in their scope or training. I think if any of the following occurred, there would be civil, administrative and possible criminal consequences.

As far as limits go, this is defined by the standard of care, licensing statutes and regulations. Deregulation, as you indicate would only be applicable if this were occurring. In the field of advanced practice nursing, more and more regulations are being created every day, such as nurse practitioners no longer needing a physicians name on ANP prescription pads here in California.
 
Wrong. Family docs are trained to do appys in some places. My classmate's dad is a rural FP and he has done them. He didn't get sued. When you're the only doc around, you have to be able to do that.

I don't understand why you are back-tracking. Your last post said nothing of standard of care and training. You said if a dentist prescribes antibiotics, it is a function of dentistry, not medicine. You said nothing of what part of the body you were talking about. But you're right, there has to be limits on what a person can do or they will do what they want (like the dentist who performed breast augmentation).

APNs are the same. With family practice and primary care, the lines are blurry. How do you know they aren't doing things that they aren't trained for if they aren't regulated? Things that do not fall under the rubric of nursing?

And how is the removal of physician oversight an example of progresive regulation? That is deregulation.


I don't think I'd want a family practitioner doing an appy on me, but then again I'd probably agree if I were out in the middle of nowhere. As far as back tracking, I believe you were the one that posited that APN's are somehow practicing medicine and that "everyone knows what they are doing" when the fact of the matter is you know (at least hopefully) otherwise.

Your argument as far as APN's being unregulated is quite misinformed, so let me bring you up to speed. In all 50 states, nursing practice (including advance nursing practice) is regulated. Nursing practice and advanced nursing practice are all concepts that are well defined. Honestly, no "blurriness." Boards of Nursing and those who regulate the practice of nursing are all masters of concept development.

If an APN does something outside of their scope of training, practice or education, then they are setting themselves up for some serious liability, such as the friend of a friend who is a GP who does appendectomies. In that situation, if anything adverse occurred, the first the plaintiffs attorney would want to know is why a physician without documentation of a general surgery residency completion is performing procedures that are clearly outside of their training and education. Just because he saw 1000 or so done, helped out with some and saw the procedure done on the discovery channel does not make the individual competent. That's what general surgery residency programs are for--documentation of training and core competency.

As far as the nature of the regulation removing physician oversight from APN Rx pads, this was extremely progressive, as physicians have no business in the management or regulation of nursing practice. And since you are now aware that prescribing medications is both a function of medicine and advanced practice nursing, I'm sure you would agree.

Best,

-Dick
 
As you can see, not all online DNP's are created equally and that's dangerous. No matter what MD or DO school you look at, you can expect a consistent set of minimal competencies across all of them. Why? Because the curriculum is standardized.

Kind of like this online medical school?

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/443292
 
I always knew that, dick, but your examples seem to only be limited to prescribing authority. What about everything else that leads up to a prescription?

The fact that you would not want an FP doing an appy on you (and I agree) unless absolutely necessary, because of a relative lack of training, speaks to what everyone on these boards are saying about APNs. That the level of responsibilty they have assumed is discordant with the level of training they have received. They are allowed to function at a level, and autonomously at that in a number of states, that is likely not achievable given the amount of time that they have spent in school. Not only that, but their course work lacks intensity and breadth to be able to identify when ione is outside their scope of practice, either. "The eyes don't see what the mind doesn't know".

How are the pre-vet studies coming?


That's a good point. What about everything else that leads to the Rx? Nursing practice is based on nursing science and guided by nursing theory which serves to direct and inform every element of assessment, diagnosis and care of the client and family. The holistic nature of examining psych, soc, spiritual, physical, support systems and interaction with environment is what makes nursing so unique, special and completely different than that of medical-model based systems.

The disparity to which you elude between APN training and scope of practice is again, quite misinformed. I'm not sure if individuals truly recognize the fact that APN's must already be licensed RN's to get into an APN program and those hours required (as I understand) number over 1,500 hours in a BSN program or combined ASN and BSN completion program. Essentially a DNP must obtain a four-year degree (BSN) to get into a four-year DNP program or have a BSN with a two years MSN program (1000 hours) to get into the DNP (1000 hour) completion program. This of course does not provide for the amount of time of RN practice prior to graduate APN training which could be anywhere from 0 to over 40,000 hours.

Although I doubt many medical students start medical school with 20,000 hours of patient care experience as does the average APN student at a local university here in town, none would degrade a medical doctor for not having such before entering medical school and ultimately becoming licensed to practice medicine. To do so would be quite insulting, such as to suggest that DNP's do not have the requisite training (8 years) to perform their respective nursing practice.

Vet studies are going good. I still need to get over my fear of animals, though. Thanks for asking.

-Dick
 
The issue if APN's are practicing nursing vs medicine is moot. Everyone knows that they are practicing medicine. Even many APN's will freely admit to it.

I hope that the recent AMA resolutions regarding the DNP are just the beginning. So much more needs to be done than just passing resolutions. I hope that the medical groups begin to really scrutinize the competencies of NP's by doing studies, evaluating their curriculum, etc. If they do studies on residency competencies, why can't they do it for autonomous NP's? For too long, medical groups have done nothing while the NP's have lobbied for more rights without proving their safety. There are too much anecdotal evidence about the questionable competencies of practicing NP's for the medical groups to simply ignore how much a safety risk autonomous NP's represent to the public. Well-designed studies need to be done. The boards of nursing, through their conflict of interest, have done little to regulate NP's. That's why the medical boards with their proven track record of training and disciplining medical professionals needs to oversee all groups who practice any form of medicine.
 
The issue if APN's are practicing nursing vs medicine is moot. Everyone knows that they are practicing medicine. Even many APN's will freely admit to it.

I hope that the recent AMA resolutions regarding the DNP are just the beginning. So much more needs to be done than just passing resolutions. I hope that the medical groups begin to really scrutinize the competencies of NP's by doing studies, evaluating their curriculum, etc. If they do studies on residency competencies, why can't they do it for autonomous NP's? For too long, medical groups have done nothing while the NP's have lobbied for more rights without proving their safety. There are too much anecdotal evidence about the questionable competencies of practicing NP's for the medical groups to simply ignore how much a safety risk autonomous NP's represent to the public. Well-designed studies need to be done. The boards of nursing, through their conflict of interest, have done little to regulate NP's. That's why the medical boards with their proven track record of training and disciplining medical professionals needs to oversee all groups who practice any form of medicine.

Wow, it sounds to me like you are truly misinformed and very threatened by APN's. First let me say there is still room for physicians in the primary care market, so even though patient satisfaction is high with those who seek ANP's physicians do a good job too.

Second and most importantly, the AMA has no regulatory authority over nursing practice.

Third, there are no studies to suggest that NP's do not give high quality care. If there were evidence-based studies, you would have these posted under your incorrect account for how many hours DNP's must have for program completion. Anecdotal stories do much to undermine your position yet the lack of citing references speaks volumes to your assertions' lack of credibility. In case you are unaware, state boards of nursing are in place to protect the consumer-not the profession. You may have got this confused with professional associations, such as the AMA, that tends to spin facts a bit, or produce resolutions by which are not supported by evidence.

Fourth, you state the medical community has done very little to limit APN practice. In fact, the medical community has done much to abate the progress of ANP's and ANP practice. Again your lack of recognition of the very AMA resolutions you cite speaks volumes of your flawed understanding of how much the medical community has rallied against APN practice, yet despite all, APN's and nursing grows. Now APN's (like physicians) have a terminal, clinical-based doctorate degree too.

Fifth, you are correct in stating that ANP's have a powerful lobby. This is why APN autonomy continues to grow far outside of the control of the medical establishment. Patient satisfaction and outcomes, however underpin why this is occurring, despite overwhelming opposition from the well-intentioned, yet misinformed medical community, present company accepted.

Lastly, I predict you will see a paradigm shift from the medical establishments rhetoric that you champion so well. The transition will go from "Physicians provide higher quality care than APN's. APN's just aint safe" as it is today to a future position, "Physicians are just as good as APN's. Come back to us for your primary care needs….Please. We have 8 years of schooling, just like APN's. We promise we'll spend more than 3.4 minutes with you per visit."

The sooner you come to a realization that APN's are not going anywhere accept for up in the hierarchy of the health care community, the sooner you can focus on your own profession and what it means to be a part of the community in stead of being the only part.

-Dick
 
The issue if APN's are practicing nursing vs medicine is moot. Everyone knows that they are practicing medicine. Even many APN's will freely admit to it.

Please let us know if the APN's freely admit to the medical and nursing boards they are practicing medicine without a license. Unless they have both an MD and APN license of course. This would indeed be interesting. As I understand, practicing medicine without a license is a misdemeanor in most states, which would subject the nurse to loosing their license. Please, let me know of one state--just one where the nursing practice acts provide that nurses may practice medicine.
 
To bad he got banned - I wanted him to answer the question if APN's use NANDA diagnoses when they practice.
 
Listing himself as pre-vet was probably what did him in. :laugh:

Go back to allnurses.com.
 
And we had a non-talking-head discussion going! ;>P Who approved that ban???!!
 
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Richard Head here.

So is that pretty much how this forum works? You don't agree with someone and they get banned? The logic is too straight forward, non-confrontational and not personalized and you bar an individual from participation? An enlightened individual helps others find weaknesses and deficits in their own venomous rhetoric and you 86 the very person who is only try to educate those misguided souls? If for these reasons I was banned, I must say that I am extremely proud to be banned.

Very nice, and speaks volumes of this forum and those advertisers who support such blatant censorship.

To the coward who chose to ban me and those who are deeply hurt over the truth: Although you may have silenced my voice on this forum (which is no huge loss), you will not silence the voice or movement of advance practice nurses. Physicians have been around for ever, yet ANP's for only 40 years. Now they practice independently.

Sooner or later you will come to realize the linear and positive relationship between the concepts of trust and respect for others. The sooner you come to realize that everyone in health care is a valuable member of the community, the sooner you will come to realize your place as well.

-Dick
 
Taurus comes down here acting somewhat civil, but without the sig he normally has on the anesthesia forum.

Here is what was left out...mind you this is what is listed after every post.




Clinical training hours
DNP: 1000*
PA: 2400
MD/DO: >12000

Dude at least be honest if you come to this forum. Don't change sigs just because you posted in the clinician's forum.

Too true and very telling. I wonder how they cram over 12,000 CLINICAL hours into a 4 year medical program, which would average 3,000 hours per year (even during basic sciences), not including any class, lab or study time.

I also wonder how a medical student who is obviously not part of the nursing profession would take such action to attack the profession. I wonder why the site moderators would allow such hostile, unchecked attacks on a group of health care providers.

And I'm the one who gets banned.

-Dick
 
Dear Richard and others,

You do not get banned on the SDN forums for espousing controversial opinions, provided you do this with tact and without resorting to inappropriate language, harassment, and other features that can be easily seen in the user terms of service (under FAQ).

You do get banned when your main reason for being here is to incite other users and deliberately bait others, particularly when one does this immediately upon registering. What also gets one banned is registering under an obviously trollish username and assuming that persona.

Now, if your name truly is Richard Head, scan in a birth certificate or another form of personal ID and send it to me. If that's true, then I will reinstate your original account, provided that, of course, you do not resort to trollish behavior and personal attacks. As no one in their right mind with the name "Richard Head" would choose to be called "Dick" I presume this request will not be fulfilled.

You can couch your banning and disappointment in whatever pathetic reasoning you choose (I see you went with both the "the guy who banned me is a coward" and the "you're silencing the truth" arguments this time). In truth, your posts were interesting and seemingly well thought out. A bit confrontational, but that isn't generally a huge problem. I suspect you know this, and are mainly here to draw attention to yourself and argue with people.

We have numerous professional, intelligent, and appropriate discussions on these topics you are referencing all over these forums. We do not censor people who can discuss things like adults. If you wish to return and discuss things as an adult, I suspect no one will have a problem with your existence. Believe me, I have no personal axe to grind in the matter.
 
Too true and very telling. I wonder how they cram over 12,000 CLINICAL hours into a 4 year medical program, which would average 3,000 hours per year (even during basic sciences), not including any class, lab or study time.


-Dick

the 12,000 hours are from residency training. Working 80 hours per week and sometimes going over it, with only 4 weeks vacation. And thats only in a 3 year program.
 
Here's a bunch of Nurses talking about Online DNP

http://community.advanceweb.com/forums/thread/25727.aspx

Quote:
I am currently enrolled in a DrNp program at Robert Morris University in Pittsburgh. The program requires you to be on campus one week each semester. The rest of the course work is done online.

Quote:
I am currently enrolled in TCU's DNP program that is online. This is their first year. It is $875 an hour and does not require attendence. Hope that helps

Quote:
I am completing a DNP online program this May at UTHSC. It is a great program that has more than a couple of options to choose from. You do have to go to campus 4x a year for a few days to meet requirements (for presentations and the occasional lecture), but residencies and coursework is done from home.

Quote:
I am currently in a blended program. I take courses online, and then attend a 3 day seminar each trimester​
 
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the 12,000 hours are from residency training. Working 80 hours per week and sometimes going over it, with only 4 weeks vacation. And thats only in a 3 year program.

That doesn't even include the additional 5000 clinical hours medical students put in during 3rd and 4th year medical school.
 
I've been thinking about the clinical hours thing more and more.

I just don't really think there is any substitute for seeing patients and laying hands on them.

To my way of thinking the patient contact is to get you comfortable talking with another human being about their problems, laying hands on them and ultimately recognizing different signs, symptoms and processes.

I mean you really need to be able to walk in a room and recognize when a patient is sick as hell, when you are being played and when something does not add up and you need to dig deeper into a problem.

Did anyone really get the full effect of a disease by listening to a lecture or reading a PP.

Don't answer its a rhetorical question!

However, the first time you saw a brittle diabetic and took off their shoes and had the smell of gangrene hit you. Then it became real and you consequently cared more and everything just made more sense.

What about the first time you put a stethoscope to an asthmatics chest and heard nothing. Oh, **** the alarms bells start going off.

What about the first patient you saw in fulminant heart failure with pitting edema who was working really hard to breath.

These things just can't be taught and must be experienced.

Anyway, my point is that there is no shortcut to experience and if you have never seen or heard of something then it is not even open as a possibility for you to stick into a differential.

When the only tool you have is a hammer...
 
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