What benefits come with a MD degree if i want to do medical research as a career?

[kled2000]

Greetings,
I’m fresh out of high school and I’m really interested in doing medical research as a career. But I’m not sure whether to go the phd route or the md/phd route.
I’m an international student so the decision has to be made right now. I can’t got to college and get a Bsc in life Sciences then decide if I want to go Into medicine or not because there are no graduate entry medical schools in my country and medical school abroad is way too expensive. So in short if I don’t go into medical school now I will probably never will.
I’m not so interested in the idea of clinical practice, believe it or not I think it’s quite boring. I want to do something new, as cleche as it sounds, but I want to help huminaty take a step forward in curing human diseases.
So I want to know what are the benefits if I choose the physician scientist route Vs the pure phd route with no medical training. And just about anything you know to help me decide. That would be massively appreciated.
Thank you

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Lucca]

“...Not interested in clinical practice...”


Decision made! Focus on becoming a great scientist.

 

[evasive fish]

If you are interested in a career in biomedical research, getting either a PhD or MD-PhD can help you get there. In terms of career security, income, and risk mitigation, the MD-PhD route is much more convenient, but if you say you’re not so interested in clinical practice, then there’s no point in choosing the dual degree, as the MD-PhD is (ideally) designed to train physician-scientists who dedicate most of their time to research and a smaller portion of time to clinical practice.

Don’t go MD-PhD if clinical practice doesn’t attract you because a significant portion of your training will be clinical, and you’ll burn out and get frustrated if you don’t like it. While it’s still possible to complete an MD-PhD and forgo residency/fellowship to go straight into post-doc research, you will never get accepted into any MD-PhD program if you don’t demonstrate interest and experience in the clinical side (e.g. why do you want to become a physician? Why not just PhD?).

Regarding your international status, are you planning to come to the U.S. for your BSc.? You can go to college outside the U.S. and still get considered by some U.S. PhD programs (provided that you have significant research experience, of course), but if you go for MD-PhD, then you must complete your undergraduate education in the U.S. (some exceptions may sometimes be made for Canadian college graduates by some schools that consider Canadian undergraduate education somewhat equivalent to U.S.; but since you say there are no graduate-entry medical schools in your country, I assume that you’re not Canadian).

It’s good, though, that you’re thinking about your career path this early. Good luck!

 

[kled2000]

“...Not interested in clinical practice...”


Decision made! Focus on becoming a great scientist.

I meant as a career, but from what i read about some physician scientists is that they only accept cases that are related directly to their research projects. That I don’t mind at all and is kind of cool.
Plus are there any benefits, research wise, of obtaining a MD ?
Thank you.

 

[kled2000]

If you are interested in a career in biomedical research, getting either a PhD or MD-PhD can help you get there. In terms of career security, income, and risk mitigation, the MD-PhD route is much more convenient, but if you say you’re not so interested in clinical practice, then there’s no point in choosing the dual degree, as the MD-PhD is (ideally) designed to train physician-scientists who dedicate most of their time to research and a smaller portion of time to clinical practice.

Don’t go MD-PhD if clinical practice doesn’t attract you because a significant portion of your training will be clinical, and you’ll burn out and get frustrated if you don’t like it. While it’s still possible to complete an MD-PhD and forgo residency/fellowship to go straight into post-doc research, you will never get accepted into any MD-PhD program if you don’t demonstrate interest and experience in the clinical side (e.g. why do you want to become a physician? Why not just PhD?).

Regarding your international status, are you planning to come to the U.S. for your BSc.? You can go to college outside the U.S. and still get considered by some U.S. PhD programs (provided that you have significant research experience, of course), but if you go for MD-PhD, then you must complete your undergraduate education in the U.S. (some exceptions may sometimes be made for Canadian college graduates by some schools that consider Canadian undergraduate education somewhat equivalent to U.S.; but since you say there are no graduate-entry medical schools in your country, I assume that you’re not Canadian).

It’s good, though, that you’re thinking about your career path this early. Good luck!

Thank you for your reply.
No you are right there I’m not Canadian I’m from Jordan and I will be doing my bsc in Malaysia. Couldn’t get a student visa to neither Canada nor usa.
Other than the financial security aspect. Is there anything research wise I would gain from having a MD ? Like do physician scientists do some kind of research that pure phds can’t do?
Otherwise I’m having a bit of a trouble understanding why do people choose the physician scientist path if they will devot 80% of their time in the lab and work in academia or other research facilities that don’t pay anything near the money they would have got if they worked as physicians full time.
Is there any research advantage of being a clinician as well?
Thank you again.

 

[evasive fish]

Couldn’t get a student visa to neither Canada nor usa.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Other than the financial security aspect. Is there anything research wise I would gain from having a MD ? Like do physician scientists do some kind of research that pure phds can’t do?

There are some members way more qualified than I am to answer this, but from what I know, the obvious thing MD-PhDs can do that pure PhDs cannot is treat patients (provided they're licensed to practice, of course). Another thing would be that, in some cases, the research subject is related to their clinical practice, and their clinical practice provides perspective and informs the research approach (like taking insights from bed to bench and then back to bed).

Otherwise I’m having a bit of a trouble understanding why do people choose the physician scientist path if they will devot 80% of their time in the lab and work in academia or other research facilities that don’t pay anything near the money they would have got if they worked as physicians full time.
Is there any research advantage of being a clinician as well?

Part of this can be personal motivation: interest in clinical practice and at the same time a strong commitment to research, which will require dedicating most of your time to research if you want to do it properly and be productive. Lastly, passion and commitment to research often means you don't care about money (e.g. earning less than what you would working full-time clinical).

 

[kled2000]

I'm sorry to hear that.

There are some members way more qualified than I am to answer this, but from what I know, the obvious thing MD-PhDs can do that pure PhDs cannot is treat patients (provided they're licensed to practice, of course). Another thing would be that, in some cases, the research subject is related to their clinical practice, and their clinical practice provides perspective and informs the research approach (like taking insights from bed to bench and then back to bed).

Part of this can be personal motivation: interest in clinical practice and at the same time a strong commitment to research, which will require dedicating most of your time to research if you want to do it properly and be productive. Lastly, passion and commitment to research often means you don't care about money (e.g. earning less than what you would working full-time clinical).

Thank you for your reply!
I hope a physician scientist would give me an insight on this subject, I’m aching to know!

 

[kled2000]

Any physician scientist kind enough to help?

 

[mdphdNYC]

Hi,
For me, as for the vast majority of MD-PhDs, I think the main benefit is being able to practice medicine, as I have always seen that as an integral part of my career and one of the motivators behind my research. As a scientist, having an MD-PhD also has benefits, though the main benefits only exist in countries with pre-existing infrastructure for training and supporting MD-PhDs. As an MD-PhD in academia in the US, there are some grants (at all stages of training - from grad student to postdoc/young investigator to PI) that you are only competing with other MD-PhDs for, which is a much smaller pool than all the researchers in a country. Having an MD-PhD also (rightly or wrongly) lends you extra credibility to people away from the bench such as funding agencies, university administration, and institutional review boards, which you may be able to parlay into approval for more ambitious projects or projects with a strongly translational bent. A relatively minor benefit is that if you do human subject research, you have the ability to be a "one-man (or woman) show" - if strapped for funding at the beginning of your career, you can always collect samples and conduct patient interviews yourself.

However, all of this is predicated on the existence of a robust and productive existing community of MD-PhDs in your country. Thus far, the US is the only country with a program as established and internationally recognized as the NIH's Medical Scientist Training Program, though Canada, the UK, and many European countries have been making major strides towards catching up in recent years. If doing an MD-PhD would be an "oddity" in your country rather than a recognized and established career path, it may hinder rather than help you, as you will be older than most applicants for e.g. investigator positions while also being behind on publications. Even in the US, faculty hiring committees sometimes question whether an MD-PhD is just indecisive and would not have all of their energies to commit to research with clinical responsibilities and all. It could also be very financially burdensome to complete both medical and graduate training, especially as in most countries the medical degree is 6 years + additional training for licensure and the PhD degree may not come with full funding. Without protected funding or time to compensate for the additional time in training, it is very difficult to make an academic career work. If you find clinical practice "quite boring" I would strongly advise that you not sink 6+ years of your life into medical training, as for the vast majority of that time you will be doing "quite boring" cases before you get to see interesting cases relevant to your research, and apply to PhD programs after your undergrad degree instead.

 

[kled2000]

Hi,
For me, as for the vast majority of MD-PhDs, I think the main benefit is being able to practice medicine, as I have always seen that as an integral part of my career and one of the motivators behind my research. As a scientist, having an MD-PhD also has benefits, though the main benefits only exist in countries with pre-existing infrastructure for training and supporting MD-PhDs. As an MD-PhD in academia in the US, there are some grants (at all stages of training - from grad student to postdoc/young investigator to PI) that you are only competing with other MD-PhDs for, which is a much smaller pool than all the researchers in a country. Having an MD-PhD also (rightly or wrongly) lends you extra credibility to people away from the bench such as funding agencies, university administration, and institutional review boards, which you may be able to parlay into approval for more ambitious projects or projects with a strongly translational bent. A relatively minor benefit is that if you do human subject research, you have the ability to be a "one-man (or woman) show" - if strapped for funding at the beginning of your career, you can always collect samples and conduct patient interviews yourself.

However, all of this is predicated on the existence of a robust and productive existing community of MD-PhDs in your country. Thus far, the US is the only country with a program as established and internationally recognized as the NIH's Medical Scientist Training Program, though Canada, the UK, and many European countries have been making major strides towards catching up in recent years. If doing an MD-PhD would be an "oddity" in your country rather than a recognized and established career path, it may hinder rather than help you, as you will be older than most applicants for e.g. investigator positions while also being behind on publications. Even in the US, faculty hiring committees sometimes question whether an MD-PhD is just indecisive and would not have all of their energies to commit to research with clinical responsibilities and all. It could also be very financially burdensome to complete both medical and graduate training, especially as in most countries the medical degree is 6 years + additional training for licensure and the PhD degree may not come with full funding. Without protected funding or time to compensate for the additional time in training, it is very difficult to make an academic career work. If you find clinical practice "quite boring" I would strongly advise that you not sink 6+ years of your life into medical training, as for the vast majority of that time you will be doing "quite boring" cases before you get to see interesting cases relevant to your research, and apply to PhD programs after your undergrad degree instead.

Thank you so much for your reply!
I’m not worried about my country status because I definitely plan my future abroad. Whether i do a phd or md-phd there’s absolutely no job market here as there’s no medical research conducted at all. Like most Middle Eastern countries.
Also I’m not worried about the financial aspect as getting bsc in medicine degree is very affordable here.
That’s interesting to hear! So you would say that in a country like Australia or Ireland or wherever where they don’t have a clear and established md-phd program, the main benefit of it is gone?
Typically for me the only path of being a physician scientist is doing a residency program with intense research integrated in it.
But most importantly and the thing that I really want to know is research wise, does having a medical degree help you conduct better experiments than pure phds? Or help you understand a disease better than them?
Or are you just as qualified as them to do research on a certain human disease but the only difference is you can gather samples and conduct patient interviews yourself?
In short how does being a physician scientist affect your research career?
And thank you again

 

[tortuga87]

Thank you so much for your reply!
I’m not worried about my country status because I definitely plan my future abroad. Whether i do a phd or md-phd there’s absolutely no job market here as there’s no medical research conducted at all. Like most Middle Eastern countries.
Also I’m not worried about the financial aspect as getting bsc in medicine degree is very affordable here.
That’s interesting to hear! So you would say that in a country like Australia or Ireland or wherever where they don’t have a clear and established md-phd program, the main benefit of it is gone?
Typically for me the only path of being a physician scientist is doing a residency program with intense research integrated in it.
But most importantly and the thing that I really want to know is research wise, does having a medical degree help you conduct better experiments than pure phds? Or help you understand a disease better than them?
Or are you just as qualified as them to do research on a certain human disease but the only difference is you can gather samples and conduct patient interviews yourself?
In short how does being a physician scientist affect your research career?
And thank you again

You are really reflective for a high school student. I'm surprised by the level of depth in your questions at such a young age.

Yes, having a medical degree helps in framing questions. Most researchers do the research they do because they sort of fell into it in one way or another; they typically do not critically reflect on their direction (I'm not talking about justifying their research on grants, but really taking a step back and asking if this is the best possible way to solve the problem). As an MD PhD you will often predict that someone's research direction is going nowhere in terms of clinical impact (but not with 100% accuracy). The M.D. helps in that regard. You don't seem like you will be the average PhD though.

How does medical education and graduate education work in your country?

 

[kled2000]

You are really reflective for a high school student. I'm surprised by the level of depth in your questions at such a young age.

Yes, having a medical degree helps in framing questions. Most researchers do the research they do because they sort of fell into it in one way or another; they typically do not critically reflect on their direction (I'm not talking about justifying their research on grants, but really taking a step back and asking if this is the best possible way to solve the problem). As an MD PhD you will often predict that someone's research direction is going nowhere in terms of clinical impact (but not with 100% accuracy). The M.D. helps in that regard. You don't seem like you will be the average PhD though.

How does medical education and graduate education work in your country?

Thank you for your reply!
Medical school is 6 year program which is direct entry from high school + 1 year of clinical training.
Graduate i have no idea to be honest and I intend to do it abroad.
Me and many of my friends are forced to go deep into each pathway and analyze it because we will never get a chance to change our minds. We have to make possibly the biggest decision of our lives right now. Which is scary above everything else.
That’s why I’m asking what career suits my interest the best, I want to make a real impact in helping finding a cure for a particular disease, oncology sounds particularly interesting. That’s why I’m confused whether getting a md will give extra knowledge to apply in my research.
Btw if i go to med school the only pathway to becoming a physician scientist is joining a research intensive residency program and maybe det a postgrad degree.

 

[mdphdNYC]

Thank you so much for your reply!
I’m not worried about my country status because I definitely plan my future abroad. Whether i do a phd or md-phd there’s absolutely no job market here as there’s no medical research conducted at all. Like most Middle Eastern countries.
Also I’m not worried about the financial aspect as getting bsc in medicine degree is very affordable here.
That’s interesting to hear! So you would say that in a country like Australia or Ireland or wherever where they don’t have a clear and established md-phd program, the main benefit of it is gone?
Typically for me the only path of being a physician scientist is doing a residency program with intense research integrated in it.
But most importantly and the thing that I really want to know is research wise, does having a medical degree help you conduct better experiments than pure phds? Or help you understand a disease better than them?
Or are you just as qualified as them to do research on a certain human disease but the only difference is you can gather samples and conduct patient interviews yourself?
In short how does being a physician scientist affect your research career?
And thank you again

Since you are talking about "residencies", it sounds like you are hoping to come to the US after your undergrad degree (whether an MBBS/equivalent or a BSc equivalent). Unfortunately, this is currently nearly impossible - there has been quite a lot written on this site about the woes of "IMGs" (international medical graduates) who struggle to match to residencies at US hospitals, even when they are US citizens or coming from universities such as Cambridge, Trinity, etc which are known to US programs. It sounds like your best bet is to pursue a BSc instead, and build a strong research record, with letters of recommendation from the top researchers in your country in your field of interest. Your research record will need to be stronger than a domestic applicant to gain admission to an equivalent PhD program (with publications and presentations in internationally-recognized journals so admissions committees know you are capable of research), but PhD programs take international students all the time, and it is far easier to gain admission to graduate school in the US as an international student than it is to a residency program.

 

[kled2000]

Since you are talking about "residencies", it sounds like you are hoping to come to the US after your undergrad degree (whether an MBBS/equivalent or a BSc equivalent). Unfortunately, this is currently nearly impossible - there has been quite a lot written on this site about the woes of "IMGs" (international medical graduates) who struggle to match to residencies at US hospitals, even when they are US citizens or coming from universities such as Cambridge, Trinity, etc which are known to US programs. It sounds like your best bet is to pursue a BSc instead, and build a strong research record, with letters of recommendation from the top researchers in your country in your field of interest. Your research record will need to be stronger than a domestic applicant to gain admission to an equivalent PhD program (with publications and presentations in internationally-recognized journals so admissions committees know you are capable of research), but PhD programs take international students all the time, and it is far easier to gain admission to graduate school in the US as an international student than it is to a residency program.

Actually ideally I would prefer Europe or especially Australia to the USA, hopefully their rules are less strict!
I have two uncles in the USA (orlando) and the wife of one of them is an intensive care nurse. She says that if you get a good usmle score you shouldn’t face any problems.
Also i want to ask, for someone like me who will do a bsc of medicine straight out of high school. What is the pathway to obtaining a phd? Do i take some time off after my mbbs and do a phd or is it integrated in some residency programs? Or do people usually do it after fellowship?
And thank you

 

[mdphdNYC]

I don't know too much about what the system is like Australia. However I do have some experience with European systems (most with the UK but also some familiarity with systems in the western half of Europe). Unlike the US, most European systems I have seen are not designed to be "modular" in the sense of medical school -> internship/residency -> "full physician"/fellow -> attending. The benefit of the modular/US-like system is that there is an application process at each step which people who completed the previous steps elsewhere can participate in (in principle at least), so IMGs can and do apply to US residencies.
In the UK and France and I believe the majority of European countries, there is no procedure for "incompletely trained" physicians from overseas to access a "residency" - their residency-equivalents are integrated with their medical schools and only available to their own graduates. To join those systems, you can either apply to one of their medical schools from the beginning, or complete your residency training in your country and apply for a "full physician" position there once you are fully licensed (this may require some license transfer procedure as well). I believe it is possible to access training spots as an international medical graduate in Germany, so I would look into those - the credential transfer anywhere would depend on your medical credential being recognized at the training institution.
In the UK MBBS system, some people take 3 years after 3rd year to do a PhD. You could also take time off after your MBBS to do a PhD, though I believe it is more common to do an MD (not in the US sense but in the sense used in systems where MBBS is the "primary" medical degree) if that is available in your country - it is shorter and specially designed for MBBS graduates.