Watchout!! Here comes foreign labor

[sirus_virus]

I heard the number of applicants in the last match almost doubled because of an increase in foreign doctors applying. This was due to the tightening of work requirements by U.K and Australia forcing them to turn to the U.S. Note: I am not talking about IMGs(American students that graduated from foreign schools). I just hope our residency programms are not selling us out to foreign labor. It is only fair, since American students come out of pocket big time to pay for medschool. Now, if they want to go help us with primary care(with limits ofcourse), they are more than welcome IMO, because we need help in that area and they typically are not as debt ridden as American students. I am however opposed to any encroachment on competitive specialties(rads, derm, opth, ...), but I will not be surprised if the AMA drops the ball on this one like every other thing.

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[Gut Shot]

I heard the number of applicants in the last match almost doubled because of an increase in foreign doctors applying.

Did you hear this from, like, some guy whose brother, like, works for NRMP?

 

[LimitlessCat]

Wow! I did not know America was getting to the point where there were so many doctors already providing services to EVERYONE that we had to start worrying about foreign doctors coming in to take positions for AMERICAN trained Physicians.

 

[sirus_virus]

Wow! I did not know America was getting to the point where there were so many doctors already providing services to EVERYONE that we had to start worrying about foreign doctors coming in to take positions for AMERICAN trained Physicians.

No smarty pants, but there are however specialties that have more than enough american doctors willing to practice but not enough spots, and that is why they are called COMPETITIVE specialties.

 

[Critical Mass]

Now, if they want to go help us with primary care(with limits ofcourse), they are more than welcome IMO, because we need help in that area and they typically are not as debt ridden as American students. I am however opposed to any encroachment on competitive specialties(rads, derm, opth, ...)

Spoken like a true gunner. Sure, come here to take the leftovers that we don't want but don't compete with the elitists.

I don't think that we have much to worry about because IMG's already don't fair that well in the competative allo stuff. That said, if I am a patient, I want the best doctor possible. So do the residency programs.

If somebody can come here and blow me away on my country's USMLE, welcome! Especially if you want to practice here.

 

[sunnyjohn]

I blame Canada.

/sarcasm off.

 

[saradoor]

I heard the number of applicants in the last match almost doubled because of an increase in foreign doctors applying. This was due to the tightening of work requirements by U.K and Australia forcing them to turn to the U.S. Note: I am not talking about IMGs(American students that graduated from foreign schools). I just hope our residency programms are not selling us out to foreign labor. It is only fair, since American students come out of pocket big time to pay for medschool. Now, if they want to go help us with primary care(with limits ofcourse), they are more than welcome IMO, because we need help in that area and they typically are not as debt ridden as American students. I am however opposed to any encroachment on competitive specialties(rads, derm, opth, ...), but I will not be surprised if the AMA drops the ball on this one like every other thing.

Are you that insecure in your ability to compete? Our country has benefited so much in the past for being the most open society in the world and that has helped us to attract the best and the brightest from every corner of the earth. This is our strength. Don't be afraid!

 

[sirus_virus]

Spoken like a true gunner. Sure, come here to take the leftovers that we don't want but don't compete with the elitists.

I don't think that we have much to worry about because IMG's already don't fair that well in the competative allo stuff. That said, if I am a patient, I want the best doctor possible. So do the residency programs.

If somebody can come here and blow me away on my country's USMLE, welcome! Especially if you want to practice here.

Until you find out the residency programs prefer them, not because of better USMLE scores but because they are more than willing to work 95 hours a week for less than 40K without complaints. Yeah, go ahead and invite foreign labor. U.K and Australian doctors protecting their turf are just being silly.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Until you find out the residency programs prefer them, not because of a better USMLE scores but because they are more than willing to work 95 hours a week for less than 40K without complaints. Yeah, go ahead and invite foreign labor. U.K and Australian doctors protecting their turf are just being silly.

Every single occupational group in the US uses the "they work for peanuts" argument.

Those dang foreigners. They should stick to running gas stations and the front desk of hotels.

If you want to doctor, go treat the hicks in Podunkville, USA. Leave the eyes and X-rays to the REAL Americans!

/sarcasm off.

 

[78222]

Two Points:

First, allopathic MDs have first pick on residency slots. The general order goes Allopathic>DO>IMG. I don't think we have much to worry about regarding being picked over for an IMG.

Second, competition is a good thing. However, if we did get to a system where IMGs were on the same footing competitively as American trained doctors, it would be incredibily unfair. Why shouldn't a US trained doc get priority? We have trained in the country, accumulated outrageous amounts of debt in our medical education, and most importantly - are residents of this country.

 

[Critical Mass]

Until you find out the residency programs prefer them, not because of better USMLE scores but because they are more than willing to work 95 hours a week for less than 40K without complaints. Yeah, go ahead and invite foreign labor. U.K and Australian doctors protecting their turf are just being silly.

As long as pay is good for specialties relative to primary care, there will be no shortage of US allo grads willing to put the time in for resident pay. The fact of the matter is that US med schools have intentionally produced far fewer grads than we have residency slots for years. We do this in part because it ensures that the vast majority of US docs get the specialty that they want.

 

[sirus_virus]

Not to mention that these guys are often abandoning countries that are a lot 'sicker' than America where their services are seriously needed.

 

[dilated]

Actually, the current system is far preferable for US MDs to one in which there were more American grads. IMGs are effectively relegated to 2nd class citizens even if they have as good (or better) objective stats. If those IMG-filled slots were filled by doubling the number of US grads, the top 1% of those new US grads would be burning you for that derm slot.

Increasing the number of IMGs doesn't really affect us very much, it mostly makes it way more cutthroat for other IMGs and might push on DOs a little (although they have their own match to fall back on).

 

[Critical Mass]

...If those IMG-filled slots were filled by doubling the number of US grads, the top 1% of those new US grads would be burning you for that derm slot.

Increasing the number of IMGs doesn't really affect us very much, it mostly makes it way more cutthroat for other IMGs and might push on DOs a little (although they have their own match to fall back on).

Agree big time.

 

[i61164]

I don't know you guys. From what I hear, more US grad are scrambling this year than in the past. If that doesn't mean that the increase in foreign applicants is having an effect on some US grads, then what? Some of these foreign grads have double 99's on step 1 and 2 and they can, in fact, compete with you.

 

[Critical Mass]

I don't know you guys. From what I hear, more US grad are scrambling this year than in the past. If that doesn't mean that the increase in foreign applicants is having an effect on some US grads, then what? Some of these foreign grads have double 99's on step 1 and 2 and they can, in fact, compete with you.

What it means to me is that more people are steering away from primary care and choosing to compete with each other for the competative stuff moreso than before. When the new match statistics come out, it should be obvious if IMG's are gaining ground. I doubt it though.

If there is one group of people I'm not worried about competing against, it's people who come from other countries. I respect them and their education, but PGY programs have been pretty clear to me that they prefer domestic students.

 

[NonTradMed]

My parents knew a lot of foreign medical graduates competing for residencies in this country.

This is what I get from them:

1. It is way harder for a FMG to get into a residency in this country because they essentially get the leftovers from the residency match. The preference is always US MD over foreign MD (especially if you are not even a US citizen and English is your second language).

2. Competitive residency is pretty much a lottery win. People usually get it through a fluke (for some reason, the position didn't match), OR they were exceptional . Case in point, we knew ONE Chinese guy who matched into surgeon but that was because he was a hotshot surgeon in China.

Gee, I guess we could setup laws barring top scientists and doctors from migrating to this country and working in their respective professions.

3. I'm not sure if the laws are changed now, but it used to be that if you were a FMG, medicare funding for your residency program paid less. That's one reason the preference is always to go to a US MD over a foreign MD.

The end result is a tougher road to get into residency for FMGs, as it has always been. Increasing the number of FMGs just means there's going to be tougher competition amongst themselves since they never truly competed against US MDs.

For the situation of the above Chinese surgeon who matched into a competitive field OVER US candidates, we could make a law that forbade top-notch surgeons from doing anything beyond washing dishes and busboys.

I'm not sure why the OP posted this since the situation has always been like this for foreign MDs, nothing has changed.

Also, I wanted to add that many foreign MDs coming to this country are from third world countries like India and China where they were the cream of the crop students. However, they come to the US, like so many others, for a better life.

If they are smarter and can outcompete me in the residency game, I'm not sure I could, in true American competitiveness, feel I should be given preference, especially if they could make better doctors. My preceptor works with a lot of foreign doctors and he says the foreign guys always did had differentials than the US doctors, mainly because many were selected from the best schools and were the top students in their respective countries. But living standards is better here (I could explain the economics of it but that's for another thread...). Competing against your average US MD, they tend to come out better.

As a nation, we benefit from that sort of expertise. There's no law written in the constitution that foreigners who come here must perform jobs below their skillset. After all, my parents came to this country are working in a bigPharm company for a nice income. I guess they took jobs away from "real Americans", but then again, they weren't paid less than "real Americans", so the company must have thought they were better than any "real American" candidate out there.

One more thing, I wanted to add that since people like to point out to me how "it costs more to educate us in med school than what's covered under tuition", the US would, under this logic, win out in the long run since the education of these foreign docs are paid for by their respective governments. This allows the US to reap the benefits of another country's investment. Bad for those countries, good for US. But then again, this is not a new phenomenon. Foreign scientists have been coming to this country to study for their biology, chem, engineering graduate degrees for decades and many choose to stay here. And their education from preschool through college were sponsored by another country, yet the US benefits from the end result. Hooray for the US...?

 

[Critical Mass]

If they are smarter and can outcompete me in the residency game, I'm not sure I could, in true American competitiveness, feel I should be given preference, especially if they could make better doctors.

Agree with this big time. {NonTradMed}

We value freedom in this country because competition pushes the human spirit to excel.

 

[dilated]

If they are smarter and can outcompete me in the residency game, I'm not sure I could, in true American competitiveness, feel I should be given preference, especially if they could make better doctors.

But while they may be marginally better at things like diagnosis (assuming you buy that Step scores are predictive of that), that's probably more than offset by the fact that most Americans I know are very dissatisfied when they see doctors with foreign accents. I've never heard anybody complaining that their doctor took too long to diagnose their mitral murmur, but I've heard a lot of complaining about "not being able to understand him" (which is usually just code for "has a reasonably intelligible foreign accent") and I know a bunch of people who want only US physicians. Fair or not, if the goal is patient satisfaction, the current system of anti-IMG bias is probably pretty reasonable.

 

[sirus_virus]

Agree with this big time. {NonTradMed}

We value freedom in this country because competition pushes the human spirit to excel.

Do away with the King Kong chest thumping, and go read some basic economics books. It is training, not competition that improves quality of labor. Even the AMA admits that USMLE step 1 is not an ideal measure of who would make a good physician, but they use it because that is what they have. So while you are excited by the prospects of throwing your profession's doors open to the entire universe based on some shaky criteria, let me remind you that most countries(even theirs) are doing the opposite for the protection of their own citizens who keep the money earned within the country.

BTW, incase you don't know, while you have 8 weeks between years 2 and 3 to prepare for step 1, a typical FMG could spend a good solid 2 years learning every last page of first Aid, BRS, and maybe even enroll in 2 prep courses before taking step 1. Doesn't seem like clear cut competition to me.

 

[Critical Mass]

Do away with the King Kong chest thumping, and go read some basic economics books. It is training, not competition that improves quality of labor. Even the AMA admits that USMLE step 1 is not an ideal measure of who would make a good physician, but they use it because that is what they have. So while you are excited by the prospects of throwing your profession's doors open to the entire universe based on some shaky criteria, let me remind you that most countries(even theirs) are doing the opposite for the protection of their own citizens who keep the money earned within the country.

BTW, incase you don't know, while you have 8 weeks between years 2 and 3 to prepare for step 1, a typical FMG could spend a good solid 2 years learning every last page of first Aid, BRS, and maybe even enroll in 2 prep courses before taking step 1. Doesn't seem like clear cut competition to me.

(beats chest)

I'm not really that able to comment on relative board scores of IMG's because the last match outcome booklet I have is from 2005, but the data that I've seen suggests that US seniors outperform others on the USMLE I in general.

(beats chest)

Actually I am one of the rare med students sacrificing grades in favor of going over First Aid as an M1. I view both M1 and M2 as time well spent preparing for step 1. My class rank doesn't interest me that much because I think that my school's grading system is about the worst in the country.

(beats chest)

Regarding communication, the step 2 CS exam score should include ability to communicate as part of it IMO. Whether it does or not is unknown to me, but that is seemingly one part of the USMLE that could favor native English speakers.

 

[necrotic brain]

This thread seems to have slightly varied ideas. However, most of you, deep down, seem to really believe that Americans are the best, so screw the rest of the world and pass judgement on people from other countries blindly. You, who have little to no knowledge of living or studying medicine in another country are so quick to jump to conclusions. A doctor in America is the same as a doctor in Germany. Americans are too big headed for their own good and have to learn how to be more accepting of 'foreigners'. The world would still go on without America's existence. Heck, it might even be a hell of a lot better.

 

[i61164]

When the new match statistics come out, it should be obvious if IMG's are gaining ground. I doubt it though.

Indeed. Once the numbers come out, we will see what the impact was.

 

[sirus_virus]

This thread seems to have slightly varied ideas. However, most of you, deep down, seem to really believe that Americans are the best, so screw the rest of the world and pass judgement on people from other countries blindly. You, who have little to no knowledge of living or studying medicine in another country are so quick to jump to conclusions. A doctor in America is the same as a doctor in Germany. Americans are too big headed for their own good and have to learn how to be more accepting of 'foreigners'. The world would still go on without America's existence. Heck, it might even be a hell of a lot better.

Bin laden, Is that you?

 

[Critical Mass]

This thread seems to have slightly varied ideas. However, most of you, deep down, seem to really believe that Americans are the best, so screw the rest of the world and pass judgement on people from other countries blindly. You, who have little to no knowledge of living or studying medicine in another country are so quick to jump to conclusions. A doctor in America is the same as a doctor in Germany. Americans are too big headed for their own good and have to learn how to be more accepting of 'foreigners'. The world would still go on without America's existence. Heck, it might even be a hell of a lot better.

Hey I'm arguing for them.

BTW, there is a naegleria brain on SDN. You didn't have naegleria and become necrotic, did you?

 

[necrotic brain]

I take offense to being called Bin Laden. I'm probably whiter than you.

I'm not as anti-american as I might appear to be. I just think that you should learn to be more accepting of other cultures. Americans aren't the only people on earth. Every nation has great thinkers, great doctors, great surgeons.

 

[claire88]

I heard the number of applicants in the last match almost doubled because of an increase in foreign doctors applying. This was due to the tightening of work requirements by U.K and Australia forcing them to turn to the U.S. Note: I am not talking about IMGs(American students that graduated from foreign schools). I just hope our residency programms are not selling us out to foreign labor. It is only fair, since American students come out of pocket big time to pay for medschool. Now, if they want to go help us with primary care(with limits ofcourse), they are more than welcome IMO, because we need help in that area and they typically are not as debt ridden as American students. I am however opposed to any encroachment on competitive specialties(rads, derm, opth, ...), but I will not be surprised if the AMA drops the ball on this one like every other thing.

Just a few points:

- The UK has closed its doors to IMGs not because it doesn't want foreign graduates working there. The amount of medical students graduating in the UK far exceeds the amount of available spots for housemanship in NHS hospitals.

- American students aren't the only ones paying to attend medical school.

- Where do you get off suggesting that IMGs should pick the leavings of what American students?! A candidate for residency should be chosen according to academic and personal merit. If more IMGs are getting into competitive residency, it's a sure sign that the standards of US medical schools are lacking! Ousting foreign students from competitive specialties is unfair and frankly shameful. Rather than discriminating according to nationality (just as bad as racism IMHO) raise the standards of your medical education. This whole post just smacks of cowardice to me.

Over and out.

 

[sirus_virus]

I take offense to being called Bin Laden. I'm probably whiter than you.

I'm not as anti-american as I might appear to be. I just think that you should learn to be more accepting of other cultures. Americans aren't the only people on earth. Every nation has great thinkers, great doctors, great surgeons.

If you read every last post on this thread you will notice that you are the first to imply that foriegners are percieved as less intelligent. all I am sayiing is that American jobs should go to qualified Americans before anyone else. That is what every country does worldwide.

 

[NonTradMed]

But while they may be marginally better at things like diagnosis (assuming you buy that Step scores are predictive of that), that's probably more than offset by the fact that most Americans I know are very dissatisfied when they see doctors with foreign accents. I've never heard anybody complaining that their doctor took too long to diagnose their mitral murmur, but I've heard a lot of complaining about "not being able to understand him" (which is usually just code for "has a reasonably intelligible foreign accent") and I know a bunch of people who want only US physicians. Fair or not, if the goal is patient satisfaction, the current system of anti-IMG bias is probably pretty reasonable.

I would agree that an accent on a doc is a strike against a foreign doctor. I think I mentioned that this was one reason that foreign docs are at a disadvantage, which, I think given the nature of the job, is a legitimate reason.

I was pointing out that if a foreign doc is considered competitive in general, then I'm not sure I could in good faith say that it's unfair they get chosen over me, especially if they were disadvantaged (coming from another country). If accents weren't an issue AND they were just as competent or moreso than me, I'd feel foreign docs should be given a fair chance.

 

[sirus_virus]

Just a few points:

- The UK has closed its doors to IMGs not because it doesn't want foreign graduates working there. The amount of medical students graduating in the UK far exceeds the amount of available spots for housemanship in NHS hospitals.

- American students aren't the only ones paying to attend medical school.

- Where do you get off suggesting that IMGs should pick the leavings of what American students?! A candidate for residency should be chosen according to academic and personal merit. If more IMGs are getting into competitive residency, it's a sure sign that the standards of US medical schools are lacking! Ousting foreign students from competitive specialties is unfair and frankly shameful. Rather than discriminating according to nationality (just as bad as racism IMHO) raise the standards of your medical education. This whole post just smacks of cowardice to me.

Over and out.

I actually read your post with an accent(I won't mention which specifically). what the hell are you talking about? Academic standards? How do we know what criteria is used to grade students in Sudan? You are right the UK did close their doors, because they want to look out for their citizens(surprised?). Look I researched practicing medicine in different countries, and I can tell you no western nation presently has anything close to the kind of open door policy the U.S has, and they all supposedly have better healthcare systems. I am infact a coward, only to the extent that I am not quite ready to compete with folks willing to slave away for peanuts regardless of work conditions.

 

[1Path]

all I am sayiing is that American jobs should go to qualified Americans before anyone else. That is what every country does worldwide.

Now when I said the same thing in regards to research funding, many folks in the MD/PhD were highly upset!

Here's the deal. I'm sure there are others who agree but are too afraid of not being politically correct.

 

[Tired]

This thread seems to have slightly varied ideas. However, most of you, deep down, seem to really believe that Americans are the best, so screw the rest of the world and pass judgement on people from other countries blindly. You, who have little to no knowledge of living or studying medicine in another country are so quick to jump to conclusions. A doctor in America is the same as a doctor in Germany. Americans are too big headed for their own good and have to learn how to be more accepting of 'foreigners'. The world would still go on without America's existence. Heck, it might even be a hell of a lot better.

Critical Mass: Yes, I want the best doctor too. What I don't want is my tax dollars training doctors for foreign countries. Or worse, I don't want my tax dollars subsidizing immigrants who will compete with me in the job market.

But I just had to comment on this post, because it really epitomizes the arrogance of foreigners when it comes to obtaining a U.S. residency position.

So on the one hand, we (Americans) are supposed to quietly take getting ripped for our "holier-than-thou" attitude towards other nations. Everyone else is just as good as we are, and, as this poster says, "A doctor in America is the same as a doctor in Germany." In fact, we are so pathetic, the world might be better without our existence.

Hey, Mr. International, if we're so horrible, why the hell are so many FMGs trying to come here to train? And if we're so arrogant and big-headed, why are we one of the few countries that will subsidize foreigners' residency training with American tax dollars? You see Germany training a lot of foreign graduates? You see Germany liberalizing their immigration policies any time soon?

I'm so tired of this crap. We're supposed to take this blind anti-Americanism politely from a bunch of Europeans who talk a good game about "freedom", then turn around and oppress their own minorities. Then we're supposed turn around and be happy with the "competition" of foreign doctors in our residencies and practice. I work hard for my country, and my tax dollars shouldn't go to training non-citizens who may or may not serve this community. And I certainly don't want my taxes subsidizing tools who have nothing better to do than rip on my country.

 

[sunnyjohn]

...Hey, Mr. International, if we're so horrible, why the hell are so many FMGs trying to come here to train?...

Money. Folks go where the dollar is the highest. Ask any Manila doctor-turn-nurse.

 

[Critical Mass]

Critical Mass: Yes, I want the best doctor too. What I don't want is my tax dollars training doctors for foreign countries. Or worse, I don't want my tax dollars subsidizing immigrants who will compete with me in the job market.

Point taken on the first part. I am a believer that state schools have a right to give preference to people who show a commitment to work in the state if they are using state money to cover the program (which is typically true). As for private schools, they can do whatever they want with private funds IMO. The competition doesn't bother me on the other hand. I think that other people have pointed out that patients prefer docs who look/speak like them, so I think that I would already have a pretty good advantage in the job market over an international grad regardless of numbers. By the end of residency, I think that interviewability will take over as far as job competition is concerned.

My view is that when looking for partners, practicing docs take care of new providers. If they were to start reducing their charges specifically to employ people who will work for less, then they'd be inviting the death of their own future earnings.

 

[deleted77919]

Point taken on the first part. I am a believer that state schools have a right to give preference to people who show a commitment to work in the state if they are using state money to cover the program (which is typically true). As for private schools, they can do whatever they want with private funds IMO.

Every single residency position is funded by the federal government. Each hospital gets something like $100,000 per resident trained from medicare. As far as residency positions are concerned (with very few exceptions) they are all funded with public dollars.

 

[78222]

One thing you guys also aren't considering is the fact that American MDs had to get a BA or BS before going to medical school. We are the only country I know of that requires that. The whole line of thinking being that its a good thing to have more well rounded physicians. Considering our extra education, why should we be on equal footing. Further, those of you arguing for equal competition with IMGs, should the same be done with state medical schools? Should students being on equal footing regardless of where their residence lies? To extrapolate a little more, how would you feel if to attend a US medical school, you also had to compete with international students?

I honestly can't believe this is even being argued - no less by American medical students.

 

[lilnoelle]

Do away with the King Kong chest thumping, .

Nothing to add, but I thought this was funny because I'm watching King Kong right now.

 

[saradoor]

One thing you guys also aren't considering is the fact that American MDs had to get a BA or BS before going to medical school. We are the only country I know of that requires that. The whole line of thinking being that its a good thing to have more well rounded physicians. Considering our extra education, why should we be on equal footing. Further, those of you arguing for equal competition with IMGs, should the same be done with state medical schools? Should students being on equal footing regardless of where their residence lies? To extrapolate a little more, how would you feel if to attend a US medical school, you also had to compete with international students?

I honestly can't believe this is even being argued - no less by American medical students.

This is not entirely accurate:

In the UK at least, students have to go thru one additional year of secondary school before they can be considered for a 6 yr medical degree program. In the US, lot of medical schools will consider students without a bachelor's degree. So in the case of number of years of education it is
UK : 13 + 6 = 19
US : 12 + 3 + 4 = 19

Of course our 19 beats their 19

 

[sirus_virus]

One thing you guys also aren't considering is the fact that American MDs had to get a BA or BS before going to medical school. We are the only country I know of that requires that. The whole line of thinking being that its a good thing to have more well rounded physicians. Considering our extra education, why should we be on equal footing. Further, those of you arguing for equal competition with IMGs, should the same be done with state medical schools? Should students being on equal footing regardless of where their residence lies? To extrapolate a little more, how would you feel if to attend a US medical school, you also had to compete with international students?

I honestly can't believe this is even being argued - no less by American medical students.

very good perspective.

 

[PlasticMan]

This is not entirely accurate:

In the UK at least, students have to go thru one additional year of secondary school before they can be considered for a 6 yr medical degree program. In the US, lot of medical schools will consider students without a bachelor's degree. So in the case of number of years of education it is
UK : 13 + 6 = 19
US : 12 + 3 + 4 = 19

Of course our 19 beats their 19

Yeah, but don't most schools require that you finish that bachelor's before matriculating? That would put us at 20.

 

[QuikClot]

Recall that no one has presented any evidence that what the OP "heard" has any truth to it. Good fun is good fun, I guess. Nothing wrong with a rousing game of Ultimate Red Herring.

Reading some of the endless "man the barricades" threads on SDN, a picture slowly takes shape. It's a man with dark skin -- a FMG, but just a PA, who despite this, wears a white coat. He works part-time for minimum wage, so he can devote himself to the cause of banning private health insurance and forcing everyone into a huge, crumbling, bureaucratic, socialized health system; like the VA, except not cheaper and better than private insurance.

He doesn't mind working for peanuts, because on the weekends he consults as a medical malpractice expert witness, destroying thousands of perfectly innocent and upstanding doctors whose only fault, if it is a fault, was killing and maiming patients while drunk or stoned.

Yes, the picture is taking shape. He is THE FETAL DOC BOOGEYMAN. And he is coming for you. Whooooooooh . . aaaaaahhhh . . .

I suggest these very important and not at all shrill, whiny, and overblown complaints be given their own "I'M SCARED -- HOLD ME" subforum.

 

[saradoor]

Yeah, but don't most schools require that you finish that bachelor's before matriculating? That would put us at 20.

Not really unless you declared that you will finish the degree. In general they will hold you accountable for what you say you will do. So if you say clearly on your application that you do not plan to finish your degree, it will be ok. In fact I know several people who did exactly that and are doing fine in the program. And there are many others who finished their 4 yr US degree in 2.5-3 yrs. Anyway 20 vs 19 is silly.

For example here is what is on one school's page:
http://www.bcm.edu/admissions/?PMID=2323
"To be considered for admission to Baylor College of Medicine, an applicant must have satisfactorily completed no less than 90 undergraduate semester hours (or equivalent number of quarter hours) at a fully accredited college or university in the United States by the time of enrollment in medical school."

On another:
http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/ome/admissions/requirements.html
"The MCAT and three years (90 semester hours or 135 quarter hours) in an accredited college or university in the United States or Canada are required. ... A course of study leading to a bachelor's degree is recommended." (recommended but not required)

And another:
http://dukemed.duke.edu/AdmissionsFinancialAid/index.cfm?method=AdmissionsRequirements
"Admission requires at least 90 hours of approved college credit, including:..."

 

[MacGyver]

I've got no problem with FMGs. However, their residency slots SHOULD NOT BE TAXPAYER FUNDED BY MEDICARE unless they are going into a primary care slot in a rural area.

If an FMG wants to match into a neurosurgery residency in Miami, then good luck to him. But let the residency program eat that cost instead of getting their 100k per year from Medicare.

 

[deleted77919]

For example here is what is on one school's page:
http://www.bcm.edu/admissions/?PMID=2323
"To be considered for admission to Baylor College of Medicine, an applicant must have satisfactorily completed no less than 90 undergraduate semester hours (or equivalent number of quarter hours) at a fully accredited college or university in the United States by the time of enrollment in medical school."

There is a difference between official policy and what actually happens. Many schools have policies like this, and yet in the last decade haven't taken anyone without a bachelors.

Yes, some attend med school with only the 90 hours but these are far and away the exception, rather than the rule.

 

[dutchman]

Only in America can you even have this debate. In most Europaen countries(like my home country), the mere suggestion by any politician that foreigners be considered equally for employment purposes will lead to permanent banishment to political abyss. I cant even imagine what will happen if a politician suggested using taxpayers money to train foreign people in some European countries. Some countries go beyond having designated jobs available to foreign labor, to having a set percentage allocated to them. I don't understand why some foreigners are complaining on this thread either. This will be like me showing up at your door and telling you I have the rights to eat dinner with your family.

 

[saradoor]

Only in America can you even have this debate. In most Europaen countries(like my home country), the mere suggestion by any politician that foreigners be considered equally for employment purposes will lead to permanent banishment to political abyss. I cant even imagine what will happen if a politician suggested using taxpayers money to train foreign people in some European countries. Some countries go beyond having designated jobs available to foreign labor, to having a set percentage allocated to them. I don't understand why some foreigners are complaining on this thread either. This will be like me showing up at your door and telling you I have the rights to eat dinner with your family.

America is definitely the best country on this planet

 

[Critical Mass]

Nothing to add, but I thought this was funny because I'm watching King Kong right now.

Actually I was thinking about you when I was beating my chest before.

 

[NonTradMed]

I've got no problem with FMGs. However, their residency slots SHOULD NOT BE TAXPAYER FUNDED BY MEDICARE unless they are going into a primary care slot in a rural area.

If an FMG wants to match into a neurosurgery residency in Miami, then good luck to him. But let the residency program eat that cost instead of getting their 100k per year from Medicare.

Point taken. However, if that's the case, then most graduate programs in engineering/chemistry/biology would be out of qualified people. When the governor of TN tried to enforce a law stating that the majority of engineering graduate positions must be filled by US citizens (when only 50% were being filled by US citizens), there was an uproar by the deans of schools across the state, they eventually showed the governor that they wouldn't find enough qualified students to fill their slots!

Right now, most people on this forum are arguing from a false red herring.

The current US policy is that foreigners, unless exceptional (internationally renowned scientists, world famous violinists etc), are given work visas to come here if there is a demand for their talents. Student visas are given to those who can pay (usually those people are very wealthy in their own countries so they are least likely to stay in this country), or those that can show they can support themselves through Phd programs or money coming from elsewhere. .

That's why biologists and engineering graduate programs are filled with Indians and Chinese----no one wants to do them and they go to qualified foreign students. The programs are still funded by the US gov't (although one could argue that the professor is using funding he acquired so he can hire anyone he deems qualified...). But who profits? Well, the US profits by filling up positions that can't be filled with qualified individuals otherwise. The entire country benefits by accepting really smart and ambitious immigrants who can contribute to the economic engine. Also remember that while the US may be educating people at the graduate education through taxpayer, from an economic standpoint, it's still a good deal since the US did not have to educate these same people from preschool through college---in other words, you get a graduate-school educated person for half the price. I believe my economics professor mentioned that human capital is the most expensive commodity in a mature, knowledge based economy such as the US---and we're getting it half priced!



The situation with residency program was also treated in a similar manner. Basically, the 25% of residency positions that goes unfilled will then go to foreigner MDs who are qualified. They are at a disadvantage in terms of language and education (stigma of studying in non US school) in competing against US MDs. I'm not sure why people are up in arms about this. What people should really be mad at is the lack of increase in med school slots, even though there are plenty of qualified individuals waiting for them in this country, when 25% of residency slots goes unfilled that we have to import people to take them.

Basically, allowing in educated immigrants is slightly different from allowing in uneducated immigrants. They both fill certain niches in the economy but I would argue that an educated immigrant also brings with them valuable human capital that is harder to replicate or find.

 

[UMP]

This is why we need to build that wall on the border

 

[dutchman]

This is why we need to build that wall on the border

Your post looked like it came straight out of the mouth of your Avatar, and it just cracked me up.