WashU vs UNC for Med school

[Raregem]

So I got a full tuition scholarship to UNC SOM, but got off the Wash U waitlist with a half-tuition scholarship. We’re talking about 70k in additional loans accumulated over the course of 4 years if I choose Wash U. I am considering a career in academic medicine, and I know rank somewhat matters for that, but I think both are prestigious. I’m strongly considering sticking to UNC, but I really like Wash U as well, and want to make a well informed decision. I want to do what’s best for my career. I know the most important thing is the work you put in. I went with price over prestige for undergrad, and while I didn’t regret it, there was always a “what if” thought in the back of my mind. Thanks in advance!

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[efle]

I'd go WashU personally, if your goal is to match a major academic center especially in a competitive specialty. Just look at their match lists, which are all available going back like 10 years.

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

I would go UNC. That's saving $70,000, and very little difference in prestige. If you can do well at UNC, which I suspect you can, you will match just as well as you would have from WashU. And match lists are especially hard to interpret from WashU, since almost 1/4 of their class is MSTP. Besides, you went price over prestige for undergrad and look how well that turned out.

 

[rball]

If you want academic medicine, go WashU. It is in a select few group of schools that will make your life much easier to pursue that career path. You mention you chose price over name for undergrad, but name matters exponentially more the higher you go up in your training. This effect is only magnified for academic med. It is worth the 70 K to have increased chance of being able to match where you want, live where you want, go after the type of career you want etc.

UNC is still a great school. My advice above assumes you like both equally. If you prefer UNC and think you’d be happier there/perform better there, go there. Ultimately your performance is the most impt factor.

 

[jessicajonesharvard]

I would go UNC. That's saving $70,000, and very little difference in prestige. If you can do well at UNC, which I suspect you can, you will match just as well as you would have from WashU. And match lists are especially hard to interpret from WashU, since almost 1/4 of their class is MSTP. Besides, you went price over prestige for undergrad and look how well that turned out.

Do you just recommend for the cheaper option every time? 70k is nothing man. Do you see any starving physicians around you? Lol

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

Do you just recommend for the cheaper option every time? 70k is nothing man. Do you see any starving physicians around you? Lol

Not at all. Only when it makes sense, like right now. $70,000 is pretty substantial for achieving good quality of life in your 20s, especially for the nearly negligible prestige difference between the two schools. UNC won't hold OP back at all compared to WashU, so it makes a lot of sense to me to keep that money.

 

[lalalallala]

No other factors? Location preference? Family/friends/SO? curriculum? I think if you really love WashU and would be much happier there than the 70k is okay (just my opinion - for some money matters less than others). From your post, however, you don't seem to love WashU much more. It sounds like you are just concerned about the prestige difference.

I do not think you need to go to WashU for the rankings bump. That 70k will gain interest and not having that debt can free you up to take an academic medicine job at a lower salary that helps your career or spend residency in a more expensive city if you want. It is not that you won't be able to pay it back - it is whether that is what you want to spend your money on vs upgrading your lifestyle/buying a house/etc . "do you see any starving physicians around you" entirely misses the point.

How you do and what you end up wanting in your career will be what determines your outcome. Pick what feels best for you - not what some rankings list says is best

 

[manofsteel9]

WUSTL is at least a couple steps above UNC in medicine. UNC wants to produce leading NC physicians; WUSTL wants to produce nationally leading physicians. UNC’s “rank” is overrated due to their strong natural sciences research, hence astronomical NIH money. 70k is nothing so unless you don’t have a compelling reason to be in Chapel Hill over St. Louis (or if you want to practice in NC for sure), take WUSTL.

 

[greguniverse]

Guess it depends on what exactly you mean when it comes to academic medicine. It doesn’t get any better than UNC when it comes to primary care related fields, and they aren’t no slouch when it comes to research as well, although WashU definitely has them beat there. Both schools have a few question marks at the moment with WashUs curriculum change alongside UNC currently building a few new buildings for their medical students. At the end of the day that 70k ends up being quite a bit more when you consider interest on additional loans versus being able to immediately put that money into some higher yield investments, but as people have mentioned your earnings potential in medicine is already quite high. Trust your gut, I think you probably know where you will be happiest, and good luck with this decision!

 

[Raregem]

Thanks for the advice everyone! The specialties I am currently considering are either research heavy or competitive. I like UNC a lot, and think Chapel Hill beats St. Louis by a mile location wise. St. Louis imo is still a nice area, and I do think I would be happier there. The pull towards Wash U is not only the prestige (as given by US News and its 'interesting' metrics ), but the incredible faculty and students, and outstanding facilities. Wash U seems to do better than UNC with its match list too (though those things are difficult to read). I am more familiar with the Triangle Area than St. Louis though, but I honestly don't mind the move; infact, a change in environment might be nice. I don't have a S.O. to consider, and would be miles away from family at either location. Everything but finances is pushing me to Wash U, but I am naturally frugal so idk. I don't mind eating ramen for an addition 3 years to pay the 70 k back, but I also don't mind being financially secure from the get go. Choosing Wash U means greater risk, greater reward potentially; choosing UNC means marginal risk, great reward. I don't know what to do. Coin flip?

 

[Raregem]

@Raregem out of curiosity, when did you hear back from the WashU waitlist? Sorry, this doesn't contribute to this discussion, and I would have pmed you but it won't let me

No problem! I got off last week

 

[Sparkling Smile]

Thanks for the advice everyone! The specialties I am currently considering are either research heavy or competitive. I like UNC a lot, and think Chapel Hill beats St. Louis by a mile location wise. St. Louis imo is still a nice area, and I do think I would be happier there. The pull towards Wash U is not only the prestige (as given by US News and its 'interesting' metrics ), but the incredible faculty and students, and outstanding facilities. Wash U seems to do better than UNC with its match list too (though those things are difficult to read). I am more familiar with the Triangle Area than St. Louis though, but I honestly don't mind the move; infact, a change in environment might be nice. I don't have a S.O. to consider, and would be miles away from family at either location. Everything but finances is pushing me to Wash U, but I am naturally frugal so idk. I don't mind eating ramen for an addition 3 years to pay the 70 k back, but I also don't mind being financially secure from the get go. Choosing Wash U means greater risk, greater reward potentially; choosing UNC means marginal risk, great reward. I don't know what to do. Coin flip?

I'd go UNC personally, but I'm biased towards warm weather, and having the money to travel to even warmer weather

I don't think the research at WashU is so significantly stronger than UNC's to make it a deciding factor.

No wrong decision though. $70k is a lot, but you will make it back within a few years.

 

[dnalwoh]

Thanks for the advice everyone! The specialties I am currently considering are either research heavy or competitive. I like UNC a lot, and think Chapel Hill beats St. Louis by a mile location wise. St. Louis imo is still a nice area, and I do think I would be happier there. The pull towards Wash U is not only the prestige (as given by US News and its 'interesting' metrics ), but the incredible faculty and students, and outstanding facilities. Wash U seems to do better than UNC with its match list too (though those things are difficult to read). I am more familiar with the Triangle Area than St. Louis though, but I honestly don't mind the move; infact, a change in environment might be nice. I don't have a S.O. to consider, and would be miles away from family at either location. Everything but finances is pushing me to Wash U, but I am naturally frugal so idk. I don't mind eating ramen for an addition 3 years to pay the 70 k back, but I also don't mind being financially secure from the get go. Choosing Wash U means greater risk, greater reward potentially; choosing UNC means marginal risk, great reward. I don't know what to do. Coin flip?

From this response, I'd lean more towards WashU -- I get wanted to be financially secure from the get-go, and obviously $70K isnt pocket change, but it doesn't seem substantial enough to deter you from going to the school you seem to prefer in all other aspects.

As others have said, you really can't make a bad decision though!

 

[Raregem]

Hindsight is 20/20. An ounce of advantage can mean everything to someone in the future, and nothing to someone else. You never know which side you will fall under. Life is full of uncertainty. Make calculated decisions that you can stand by no matter the outcome.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Hindsight is 20/20. An ounce of advantage can mean everything to someone in the future, and nothing to someone else. You never know which side you will fall under. Life is full of uncertainty. Make calculated decisions that you can stand by no matter the outcome.

So cryptic. What did you hoose and how was the match?

 

[deleted1065184]

Lol this was magnificently cryptic. Please give the viewers (us) what we want and explain more *grabs popcorn* lol

 

[obiwan]

Wash U seems to do better than UNC with its match list too (though those things are difficult to read)

The most important thing to gather from looking at a match list is if there is any ceiling as far as residency placement coming from that medical school. Looking at the UNC list, you see they can match students to Brigham and Woman's for internal medicine/Barrow Institute for neurosurgery/Wilmer-Hopkins for ophthalmology so you know that UNC will not handicap you as far as residency potential because students can match to the top programs in their respective fields. If your goal is academic medicine, going to UNC will in no way hinder your path in whatever specialty you end up choosing

 

[deleted1065184]

The most important thing to gather from looking at a match list is if there is any ceiling as far as residency placement coming from that medical school. Looking at the UNC list, you see they can match students to Brigham and Woman's for internal medicine/Barrow Institute for neurosurgery/Wilmer-Hopkins for ophthalmology so you know that UNC will not handicap you as far as residency potential because students can match to the top programs in their respective fields. If your goal is academic medicine, going to UNC will in no way hinder your path in whatever specialty you end up choosing

This is true, but pay close attention to the date. Pretty sure OP found out where they matched yesterday lol

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

SDN be like....

 

[Raregem]

Lol this was magnificently cryptic. Please give the viewers (us) what we want and explain more *grabs popcorn* lol

Haha, my bad. I don’t want to disclose too much and want to keep things professional. My objective in returning to this post at this point in training (following matching) was to provide one perspective—of many—for Pre-meds as they navigate this difficult decision making process. I believe BOTH schools are great & have excellent match lists, and I will likely maintain that belief. However, a part of me believes I ultimately made the wrong *personal* choice for my life goals. My outcome would not reflect negatively on either institution as on a systemic level there are super winners at both. I believe everything will work out in the end for me, but again hindsight is 20/20. Please just consider this perspective as n=1. Talk to as many trustworthy people as possible before deciding where to go.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

The most important thing to gather from looking at a match list is if there is any ceiling as far as residency placement coming from that medical school. Looking at the UNC list, you see they can match students to Brigham and Woman's for internal medicine/Barrow Institute for neurosurgery/Wilmer-Hopkins for ophthalmology so you know that UNC will not handicap you as far as residency potential because students can match to the top programs in their respective fields. If your goal is academic medicine, going to UNC will in no way hinder your path in whatever specialty you end up choosing

Hm, I know match lists are hard to interpret, but I'd think the ceiling alone isn't enough because it can focus on outliers as opposed to more comprehensive values. It's kind of hard to believe a school that matches a few students to MGH/BWH/Hopkins level is the same as something like HMS or Stanford where their lower bound is usually still top academic spots. I know HMS and Stanford students are elite, but I have a hard time thinking their lower performers are working harder than students at other programs--if anything, they can be less stressed from the more lenient grading curriculum. So if you can go to a top school with better overall match lists (I know, very subjective and hard to interpret), you kinda get a boost in association and don't have to go out of your way as much to stand out.

 

[deleted1065184]

Haha, my bad. I don’t want to disclose too much and want to keep things professional. My objective in returning to this post at this point in training (following matching) was to provide one perspective—of many—for Pre-meds as they navigate this difficult decision making process. I believe BOTH schools are great & have excellent match lists, and I will likely maintain that belief. However, a part of me believes I ultimately made the wrong *personal* choice for my life goals. My outcome would not reflect negatively on either institution as on a systemic level there are super winners at both. I believe everything will work out in the end for me, but again hindsight is 20/20. Please just consider this perspective as n=1. Talk to as many trustworthy people as possible before deciding where to go.

No pressure, but would you be willing to speak with me in DMs? As somebody in the middle of clerkships, I have a couple of questions.

 

[deleted1065184]

Hm, I know match lists are hard to interpret, but I'd think the ceiling alone isn't enough because it can focus on outliers as opposed to more comprehensive values. It's kind of hard to believe a school that matches a few students to MGH/BWH/Hopkins level is the same as something like HMS or Stanford where their lower bound is usually still top academic spots. I know HMS and Stanford students are elite, but I have a hard time thinking their lower performers are working harder than students at other programs--if anything, they can be less stressed from the more lenient grading curriculum. So if you can go to a top school with better overall match lists (I know, very subjective and hard to interpret), you kinda get a boost in association and don't have to go out of your way as much to stand out.

There's also the element of students at less prestigious schools potentially having a more diverse array of medical interests, and/or caring less about going fto a prestigious place for residency. Then there's the additional factor of name not always representing program quality. Most students who see Iowa for an ophthalmology match won't be impressed, but people in optho most certainly will.

Which institutions are well respected in which fields for residench varies considerably, and nobody has a good understanding of which residency programs are most prestigious across the board. These and many other factors are why it's still not very useful to look at match lists. Far too many variables to give any meaningful data.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

There's also the element of students at less prestigious schools potentially having a more diverse array of medical interests, and/or caring less about going fto a prestigious place for residency. Then there's the additional factor of name not always representing program quality. Most students who see Iowa for an ophthalmology match won't be impressed, but people in optho most certainly will.

Which institutions are well respected in which fields for residench varies considerably, and nobody has a good understanding of which residency programs are most prestigious across the board. These and many other factors are why it's still not very useful to look at match lists. Far too many variables to give any meaningful data.

Yeah that's why I mentioned match lists are hard to interpret. However, med schools tend to be feeder schools to certain programs, so if year after year one of them sends a bunch of students to a certain program (e.g. Stanford to UCSF, UCSF to MGH), the programs get used to the school's training and know the faculty and it becomes a positive feedback loop.

All that's to say that we don't know that the people from other less prestigious schools who matched elsewhere CAN'T get into or even would even want to get into those programs for whatever reason, and you shouldn't feel limited if you end up going to that school. But between schools with notably different densities of academic matches, I'd err toward the one with more year-over-year academic matches if you're into academic medicine and you want to increase your chances--what the OP seems to be alluding to.

 

[obiwan]

Hm, I know match lists are hard to interpret, but I'd think the ceiling alone isn't enough because it can focus on outliers as opposed to more comprehensive values. It's kind of hard to believe a school that matches a few students to MGH/BWH/Hopkins level is the same as something like HMS or Stanford where their lower bound is usually still top academic spots. I know HMS and Stanford students are elite, but I have a hard time thinking their lower performers are working harder than students at other programs--if anything, they can be less stressed from the more lenient grading curriculum. So if you can go to a top school with better overall match lists (I know, very subjective and hard to interpret), you kinda get a boost in association and don't have to go out of your way as much to stand out.

I guess what I meant is the ceiling for residency placement in the context of the schools that we are comparing which in this case are 2 top 25 type institutions. Yes I totally agree that a random 1-2 people matching into a Stanford residency program from a "lower tier" medical school does not equate to the same ceiling as a Stanford match list.

Also, I just realized that the original post is from 2019

 

[deleted1065184]

Yeah that's why I mentioned match lists are hard to interpret. However, med schools tend to be feeder schools to certain programs, so if year after year one of them sends a bunch of students to a certain program (e.g. Stanford to UCSF, UCSF to MGH), the programs get used to the school's training and know the faculty and it becomes a positive feedback loop.

All that's to say that we don't know that the people from other less prestigious schools who matched elsewhere CAN'T get into or even would even want to get into those programs for whatever reason, and you shouldn't feel limited if you end up going to that school. But between schools with notably different densities of academic matches, I'd err toward the one with more year-over-year academic matches if you're into academic medicine and you want to increase your chances--what the OP seems to be alluding to.

You mean if you're interested in academic medicine at certain institutions (read: prestigious institutions), right? Nobody's denying that the most prestigious institutions do tend to have a preference for one another (no matter how unearned).

But I think SDN also forgets that academic medicine really just refers to being at an institution where you're involved in the training of medical trainees and/or some form of research. There are TONS of academic medical centers/hospitals where there's not as much prestige but faculty are involved with teaching and/or research.

Slightly unrelated, but it's the same with competitive specialties and fellowships. People seem to forget that most of these specialties also exist at the less prestigious schools. And if your goal is to match in that specialty but you don't have to also be at a prestigious institution, not going to a prestigious medical school isn't going to hurt you. I urge you to go look at some of the match lists for nsgy, derm, ortho, etc programs at less prestigious medical centers/hospitals. They're full of people from regular degular medical schools lol. Here are some examples:

Current Residents

Established in 1911, The University of Tennessee Health Science Center aims to improve human health through education, research, clinical care and public service. The UT Health Science Center campuses include colleges of Dentistry, Graduate Health Sciences, Health Professions, Medicine, Nursing...

www.uthsc.edu

Current Residents

Badon, Hannah C., MD

www.umc.edu

Current Orthopaedic Surgery Residents - MU School of Medicine

Meet the Orthopaedic Surgery residents.

medicine.missouri.edu

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

You mean if you're interested in academic medicine at certain institutions (read: prestigious institutions), right? Nobody's denying that the most prestigious institutions do tend to have a preference for one another (no matter how unearned).

But I think SDN also forgets that academic medicine really just refers to being at an institution where you're involved in the training of medical trainees and/or some form of research. There are TONS of academic medical centers/hospitals where there's not as much prestige but faculty are involved with teaching and/or research.

Slightly unrelated, but it's the same with competitive specialties and fellowships. People seem to forget that most of these specialties also exist at the less prestigious schools. And if your goal is to match in that specialty but you don't have to also be at a prestigious institution, not going to a prestigious medical school isn't going to hurt you. I urge you to go look at some of the match lists for nsgy, derm, ortho, etc programs at less prestigious medical centers/hospitals. They're full of people from regular degular medical schools lol. Here are some examples:

Current Residents

Established in 1911, The University of Tennessee Health Science Center aims to improve human health through education, research, clinical care and public service. The UT Health Science Center campuses include colleges of Dentistry, Graduate Health Sciences, Health Professions, Medicine, Nursing...

www.uthsc.edu

Current Residents

Badon, Hannah C., MD

www.umc.edu

Current Orthopaedic Surgery Residents - MU School of Medicine

Meet the Orthopaedic Surgery residents.

medicine.missouri.edu

I mean interested in academic medicine as a career, being on faculty at a university. So highly elitist, and of course you can go anywhere from anywhere, but like residencies, they care about where you did your training.

P(top medical school|competitive specialty) is not as interesting to me as P(competitive specialty|top medical school).

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

I'd be cautious. Top med schools generally have higher match rates. Looking at the match list for UTHSC, UMC, and Missouri shows you successes but doesn't reflect the large # of students from those schools who don't match derm, plastics, ortho, nsgy

lol yeah this is literally what I was trying to say with my probabilities statement

 

[deleted1065184]

I mean interested in academic medicine as a career, being on faculty at a university. So highly elitist, and of course you can go anywhere from anywhere, but like residencies, they care about where you did your training.

P(top medical school|competitive specialty) is not as interesting to me as P(competitive specialty|top medical school).

You're underestimating the range in different types of universities. I promise you that ETSU is not gonna care how prestigious of an institution their rural medicine faculty went to for med school and residency. The point I'm making, which I feel like I'm always having to restate, is that prestige matters when you want your next step to be somewhere prestigious. If you want to be academic faculty at a non-prestigious school, you can just as easily do that from a non-prestigious residency. You don't have to take my word, look at the faculty at these schools and see where they trained.

 

[deleted1065184]

I'd be cautious. Top med schools generally have higher match rates. Looking at the match list for UTHSC, UMC, and Missouri shows you successes but doesn't reflect the large # of students from those schools who don't match derm, plastics, ortho, nsgy

Edit: Im re-iterating their statement, my bad. CARS 118

The lists I sent weren't medical school match lists. I sent residency program trainee lists. It's a list of where their actual residents came from. They're almost entirely from non-prestigious schools. Why don't those competitive residency programs have more residents from prestigious medical schools? And I don't think it's useful to even try to speculate about what % of students at different schools are able to match in their specialties of choice vs not since we don't have access to those data and never will.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

You're underestimating the range in different types of universities. I promise you that ETSU is not gonna care how prestigious of an institution their rural medicine faculty went to for med school and residency. The point I'm making, which I feel like I'm always having to restate, is that prestige matters when you want your next step to be somewhere prestigious. If you want to be academic faculty at a non-prestigious school, you can just as easily do that from a non-prestigious residency. You don't have to take my word, look at the faculty at these schools and see where they trained.

I've seen this argument used a lot: "Look at so and so list, they didn't all go to prestigious places"

Again, I'm going to restate that P(someone comes from a prestigious X|they are in a Y list) is not the same as P(someone can be in a Y list|they come from a prestigious X). There are a lower number of people coming from prestigious med schools somewhat by definition, so you might see fewer than expected as a result. That doesn't mean it doesn't matter. I don't know if or how much it matters, but just because you don't see prestigious schools on the list doesn't mean it's irrelevant or wouldn't give you a leg up. You don't see former NBA caliber players in the D-league, doesn't mean being in the NBA wouldn't help you if you wanted to play in the D-league.

 

[deleted1065184]

I've seen this argument used a lot: "Look at so and so list, they didn't all go to prestigious places"

Again, I'm going to restate that P(someone comes from a prestigious X|they are in a Y list) is not the same as P(someone can be in a Y list|they come from a prestigious X). There are a lower number of people coming from prestigious med schools somewhat by definition, so you might see fewer than expected as a result. That doesn't mean it doesn't matter. I don't know if or how much it matters, but just because you don't see prestigious schools on the list doesn't mean it's irrelevant or wouldn't give you a leg up. You don't see former NBA caliber players in the D-league, doesn't mean being in the NBA wouldn't help you if you wanted to play in the D-league.

Unless one of us does the math to compare the proportion of trainees from prestigious medical schools at non-prestigious residency programs compared to the total proportion of students from prestigious medical schools nationally, those will remain a circular argument.

The truth is we're both speculating, and there's never going to be an end to this because there's no definitive right or wrong answer. But the burden of proof cannot be on me to prove that the bulk of trainees/faculty at non-prestigious residencies/medical schools were not at an advantage.

The objective data I have are the type that I've shown you. It's not perfect, but it's better than speculation. I've seen no data to disagree with it. You can speculate all you want that being from a prestigious medical school/residency gives you a leg-up for non-prestigious residencies/faculty positions, but the fact remains that most of the residents and faculty are from have non-prestigious pedigree.

There could certainly be other factors involved, but the fact remains that going to a non-prestigious medical school did not prevent those residents and faculty members from attaining their position.

And last point, you're making an inaccurate comparison between medical schools and NBA vs D-league. The reality is that all medical schools are the NBA. Some are the Bucks, others are the Pistons. But all are the NBA. Not all medical schools value the same things, and not having a large amount of biomedical research or obsessing over test scores doesn't make a medical school less than the ones that do. It's just different. I'll bring ETSU up again. They have excellent training in rural medicine. They most certainly have different values and are impressed by different things than some other institutions.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Unless one of us does the math to compare the proportion of trainees from prestigious medical schools at non-prestigious residency programs compared to the total proportion of students from prestigious medical schools nationally, those will remain a circular argument.

The truth is we're both speculating, and there's never going to be an end to this because there's no definitive right or wrong answer. But the burden of proof cannot be on me to prove that the bulk of trainees/faculty at non-prestigious residencies/medical schools were not at an advantage.

The objective data I have are the type that I've shown you. It's not perfect, but it's better than speculation. I've seen no data to disagree with it. You can speculate all you want that being from a prestigious medical school/residency gives you a leg-up for non-prestigious residencies/faculty positions, but the fact remains that most of the residents and faculty are from have non-prestigious pedigree.

There could certainly be other factors involved, but the fact remains that going to a non-prestigious medical school did not prevent those residents and faculty members from attaining their position.

Never said prevent, was talking about increasing odds like the OP was alluding to. Never said anything absolute, just showed flaws in your argument and absolutes: "If you want to be academic faculty at a non-prestigious school, you can just as easily do that from a non-prestigious residency. You don't have to take my word, look at the faculty at these schools and see where they trained."

 

[deleted1065184]

Never said prevent, was talking about increasing odds like the OP was alluding to. Never said anything absolute, just showed flaws in your argument and absolutes: "If you want to be academic faculty at a non-prestigious school, you can just as easily do that from a non-prestigious residency. You don't have to take my word, look at the faculty at these schools and see where they trained."

Can't really confidently say that statement is flawed without evidence to the contrary. I presented evidence of where residents and faculty did training, your counter-argument was entirely based on speculation based on number of people who go to prestigious institutions.

And ultimately, whether or not the spots are available because trainees from prestigious institutions choose to go go other prestigious institutions for residency/faculty positions is irrelevant. Functionally, those spots are being largely filled by trainees from non-prestigious institutions. But anyway, I digress.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Can't really confidently say that statement is flawed without evidence to the contrary. I presented evidence of where residents and faculty did training, your counter-argument was entirely based on speculation based on number of people who go to prestigious institutions.

And ultimately, whether or not the spots are available because trainees from prestigious institutions choose to go go other prestigious institutions for residency/faculty positions is irrelevant. Functionally, those spots are being largely filled by trainees from non-prestigious institutions. But anyway, I digress.

All right I'm gonna end this back-and-forth that's going nowhere by saying you can in fact say an argument is flawed if you find logical holes, and you don't need to show it's not true or even provide any evidence to the contrary to do so. I'm not saying your conclusion is not true (I asserted many times that I don't know). I just said you haven't shown the strong conclusion you asserted.

If you said I'm drinking milk today and that's why the sky is blue, I can tell you that argument doesn't hold water without having to prove that the sky is not blue.

 

[Raregem]

Y’all please don’t argue. Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion. I want to end on a positive note and say that even if things don’t end up exactly how you imagined, it is going to be A-okay. I’m feeling happier about everything now few days removed from match day, and excited about this next stage with amazing co-residents at an amazing program in an amazing specialty (a blessing that many unfortunately don’t even get due to systemic issues). Being in school chronically makes everything seem so black and white (and fuels negative feelings of failure, incompetence and comparison) but real life is not like that. I think things turned out as they were meant to, and I’m just going to keep at this journey. Wishing you all the best.

 

[Raregem]

Not me circling back here a gazillion times with semi-emotional updates at wee hours lol. Hopefully this is my true final post. On a serious note, I realized that what I want for myself is very different from what I try to strive for. There’s always this thought that climbing the academic ladder or succeeding in a pronounced way would validate all the time, energy and resources that family, friends, and mentors invested in me. However, they more than likely just want me to be happy; and I don’t really need a whole lot of pomp to be happy. I just want to do & feel good in a good environment (and thankfully that + more will likely be the case). I say this to say that I ultimately stand by all the decisions I made (+ emphasize that I was lucky in having good options that made it essentially impossible to make a bad choice). The true hindsight is 20/20 lesson here is figure out what is truly important to you, pick something, & gosh darn it stick to that path and don’t entertain regret.

 

[Raregem]

Should anyone ever happen to read this, I thought it would be important to come back to this post a final time (part-time masochist tendencies + desires to not be misunderstood / cause problems for anyone + not so shiny moments for me then) to leave long, unnecessary paragraphs with a sliver of value in between lol. Please excuse my flowery language (trying to stay anonymous).

I want to make things crystal clear and highlight my belief that we all should strive to do something at the intersection of talent, passion and public interest; while recognizing the limitless human capacity for growth + resilience + improvement. That can take any number of shapes / forms : research, teaching, patient care, listening, music, pilates, theater etc. Anything worth doing is worth doing well, and seeing through. Thoughtful restructuring is always cool too though. Whatever the case, refinement is a must. Everyone has a journey; everyone a destination. Some have a map, some GPS, some shoes, some socks, some nothing. We must do the best with what we have been given, and try to better equip other travelers. Ultimately, no singular human being knows the full nature of the trail, though many will speculate.

Human beings are as much of their environments, as they are of their own choices, actions, and aspirations. Living is a privilege; financial security is a privilege; the gift of choice is the highest of privileges. Gratitude is essential. I do not want to ever give any indication that failure should ever be an option to welcome with open arms. I do not want to ever give any indication that anything high on the hierarchy of needs is owed to anyone before the basics are given to everyone. I do not want to ever give any indication that personal responsibility is asleep. Live to fight another day for yourself, family, future, humanity, and whatever else you hold dear. Live to make your little corner of the world a bit better. Live to improve. Also, live to feel real emotions, but be less dramatic with them when possible (or selectively dramatic or totally dramatic in selective ways lol).
TLDR: No negativity intended. All good in the neighborhood. Nobody knows, many think they know, many want to know. Steer your ship.