Vaccine mandates

[Matty44]

You keep talking about mortality as if it is the only meaningful determinant in whether or not to get vaccinated.

I believe I’ve also talked about hospitalizations and long term effects as well. But when you talk about federal mandates, mortality seems like an important criteria to consider. Especially since the VAST majority of people who catch covid are asymptomatic or recover fully.

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[Southpaw]

I believe I’ve also talked about hospitalizations and long term effects as well. But when you talk about federal mandates, mortality seems like an important criteria to consider. Especially since the VAST majority of people who catch covid are asymptomatic or recover fully.

if the vast majority are asymptomatic and/or fully recover then why are you vaccinated?

 

[Matty44]

if the vast majority are asymptomatic and/or fully recover then why are you vaccinated?

Because for a middle age man I think the benefits out weigh the risk. Simple.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

if the vast majority are asymptomatic and/or fully recover then why are you vaccinated?

Beyond that, even the ones that fully recover are costing the government a lot of money in medical bills and the economy in lost productivity. All for a shockingly effective vaccine with a very low rate of serious side effects.

 

[vector2]

Influenza and varicella vaccines have been around for quite a while. All things covid are new in the last 18 months or less. I have no problem with people recommending vaccines as I’m not some anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination. My point remains that the incidence of hospitalization and death is quite low in children and if mandates come for all school age kids, I’d find that unpalatable and would not fault any parent for wanting to reserve the right to pass on the vaccine until a time they were comfortable with doing so.




And your seatbelt analogy is just plain silly.

Again, you keep insisting that hospitalization and mortality rates are "quite low" when in fact the incidence is on par with other infectious diseases for which kids are commonly vaccinated. And notably, you continue to purposefully avoid addressing the fact that children's hospitals have been overwhelmed by covid, because doing so would clash with your political narrative. Please tell me another disease in recent history in which the AAP and pediatricians were literally pleading with the FDA to move more quickly on a pediatric EUA approval for a vaccine.

In regard to the varicella vaccine, it has been out for awhile, but keep in mind that it was approved in 1995. Within a few years in the late 90s or early 2000s many states already had mandates. That is not enough time to know really long-term side effects but yet those states had a mandate anyway for a disease with morbidity and mortality much, much less than covid.

 

[vector2]

2) I don’t want them to miss weeks of school even with mild covid and want to mitigate that risk.

Very underrated reason here. I remember some folks going crazy about the psychological harm to kids that came from lockdowns and social isolation during the time when there was no vaccine or way to protect them.

And now that there is a way to get every child back in physical school the same folks don't want to vaccinate kids and don't want a mandate on teachers and school employees.

 

[Matty44]

Again, you keep insisting that hospitalization and mortality rates are "quite low" when in fact the incidence is on par with other infectious diseases for which kids are commonly vaccinated. And notably, you continue to purposefully avoid addressing the fact that children's hospitals have been overwhelmed by covid, because doing so would clash with your political narrative. Please tell me another disease in recent history in which the AAP and pediatricians were literally pleading with the FDA to move more quickly on a pediatric EUA approval for a vaccine.

In regard to the varicella vaccine, it has been out for awhile, but keep in mind that it was approved in 1995. Within a few years in the late 90s or early 2000s many states already had mandates. That is not enough time to know really long-term side effects but yet those states had a mandate anyway for a disease with morbidity and mortality much, much less than covid.

I'm not avoiding anything, I don't have anything to say really about the hospital numbers. I'm not arguing about that, they are what are at this point. And you seem to love doing this, but pointing out how the government mandated something in regards to another virus doesn't ascribe validity to a potential mandate for covid vaccines. Just cause something happened in the past doesn't determine if a repeat action is right or wrong. I don't think it makes much sense from a personal freedom/liberty standpoint that seatbelts are mandated to be honest. I understand the benefits of restraints, but that doesn't mean I agree that the government needs to mandate them. Should the federal government mandate bike helmets? Helmets while skiing? Forbid children from riding ATVs? Ban contact football? At what point do you let individuals assess their own risk?

The fact remains that we don't know everything there is to know about covid or the vaccine at this point in time, we just don't.. And honestly, that's reason enough for an individual, IMO, to be able to say, "Look, I get that from what we know, the vaccine seems very safe and effective, but I'm at INCREDIDBLY low risk of death, VERY low risk of morbidity, and so I'm gonna wait and see for a bit. And I already had covid, and there seems to be data that a previous infection confers some degree of protection as well." You gonna tell that person they are dead wrong with their risk assessment? That they have no right to decide what risk they want to take with their own body? And you're probably gonna go right back to the argument that they aren't just risking their own health, but that of the community. What is the risk to someone who has been fully vaccinated +/- booster and wears an N95 in public? Are you telling me that people who are concerned about their own health cant do that and statistically eliminate pretty much all risk at this point?

We're talking about someone making a personal health choice based on comparing risks that are all measured in fractions of a percent. When assessing risks that low and throwing in the fact that this is all very novel, and the fact that expert opinions on the virus, on the vaccine, on general recommendations seem to change/be revised every few months, its not unreasonable to give people some autonomy over their health choices. I honestly don't see what's so hard to grasp about that concept.

 

[chessknt]

This thread is a microcosm of society at large. One side that won’t accept reality that relishes gaslighting the other side and the desperate fact based pleas from the other that will never work.

 

[gasdoc77]

This thread is a microcosm of society at large. One side that won’t accept reality that relishes gaslighting the other side and the desperate fact based pleas from the other that will never work.

Categorizing the spectrum of views into two simple "sides" is a microcosm of society at large.

 

[Matty44]

This thread is a microcosm of society at large. One side that won’t accept reality that relishes gaslighting the other side and the desperate fact based pleas from the other that will never work.

I'm sorry, what "reality" isn't being accepted here?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Very underrated reason here. I remember some folks going crazy about the psychological harm to kids that came from lockdowns and social isolation during the time when there was no vaccine or way to protect them.

And now that there is a way to get every child back in physical school the same folks don't want to vaccinate kids and don't want a mandate on teachers and school employees.

That's my big reason for getting the vaccine to my kids when its approved. If they get COVID they're out for at least 10 days. My usual back-up child care is my 69 year old mother. Even though she's vaccinated I won't be having her watch them if they get COVID so my wife and I will have to take that time off (we'll each take half the total time). We're both lowly PCPs but 5 days of work will cost me around 6-7k. About the same for her.

And that's assuming that each twin gets it consecutively with 100% overlap, that odds of that might as well be 0%.

 

[FutureInternist]

I'm not avoiding anything, I don't have anything to say really about the hospital numbers. I'm not arguing about that, they are what are at this point. And you seem to love doing this, but pointing out how the government mandated something in regards to another virus doesn't ascribe validity to a potential mandate for covid vaccines. Just cause something happened in the past doesn't determine if a repeat action is right or wrong. I don't think it makes much sense from a personal freedom/liberty standpoint that seatbelts are mandated to be honest. I understand the benefits of restraints, but that doesn't mean I agree that the government needs to mandate them. Should the federal government mandate bike helmets? Helmets while skiing? Forbid children from riding ATVs? Ban contact football? At what point do you let individuals assess their own risk?

The fact remains that we don't know everything there is to know about covid or the vaccine at this point in time, we just don't.. And honestly, that's reason enough for an individual, IMO, to be able to say, "Look, I get that from what we know, the vaccine seems very safe and effective, but I'm at INCREDIDBLY low risk of death, VERY low risk of morbidity, and so I'm gonna wait and see for a bit. And I already had covid, and there seems to be data that a previous infection confers some degree of protection as well." You gonna tell that person they are dead wrong with their risk assessment? That they have no right to decide what risk they want to take with their own body? And you're probably gonna go right back to the argument that they aren't just risking their own health, but that of the community. What is the risk to someone who has been fully vaccinated +/- booster and wears an N95 in public? Are you telling me that people who are concerned about their own health cant do that and statistically eliminate pretty much all risk at this point?

We're talking about someone making a personal health choice based on comparing risks that are all measured in fractions of a percent. When assessing risks that low and throwing in the fact that this is all very novel, and the fact that expert opinions on the virus, on the vaccine, on general recommendations seem to change/be revised every few months, its not unreasonable to give people some autonomy over their health choices. I honestly don't see what's so hard to grasp about that concept.

The government DOES mandate not driving drunk, not running a red light, etc.

The actions you mention affect (usually) only the individual and while their actions DO cause everyone else to have to help pay for their care, it is only a monetary hit and I am not at risk of getting hsopitalised by someone else getting into an ATV accident.

Seatbelts, while they do protect you, also keep you from flying out of the car and causing more accidents by cars avoiding your body.

As with all actions it is a risk vs benefit issue.
What is the “cost” of putting on a seatbelt, a mask, social distancing?
Vaccines, for sure, have a higher “cost” but the benefit, as seen by all the unvaxxed currently dying in hospitals all across US, is gigantic.

Like the army guy on FauxNews recently, who took all the mandated vaccines that they are supposed to take, but then had an issue with “freedumb” when covid vaccine was mandated, these actions are less about “personal choice” or “my body my choice” (which is a WHOLE separate argument regarding Republicans assault on womens rights), and more about their political stance

 

[greatnt249]

I understand the benefits of restraints, but that doesn't mean I agree that the government needs to mandate them. Should the federal government mandate bike helmets? Helmets while skiing? Forbid children from riding ATVs? Ban contact football? At what point do you let individuals assess their own risk?

By and large, humans are terrible at performing risk assessments. Also, the things you mentioned are largely restricted to the risk posed to the individual and have little to no impact on society as a whole. When you are talking about a highly-contagious disease, it's no longer about just the risk to yourself or any one individual.

 

[FutureInternist]

Very underrated reason here. I remember some folks going crazy about the psychological harm to kids that came from lockdowns and social isolation during the time when there was no vaccine or way to protect them.

And now that there is a way to get every child back in physical school the same folks don't want to vaccinate kids and don't want a mandate on teachers and school employees.

The Floridian “strategy” in a nutshell.
Make it illegal to mandate masks, vaccines.
Fine businesses who ask for vaccine status.
No masks in schools.
Exposed kids don’t have to isolate.

Watch your kids, teachers, neighbours, die

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Should the federal government mandate bike helmets? Helmets while skiing? Forbid children from riding ATVs? Ban contact football? At what point do you let individuals assess their own risk?

yeah idk bud come over to the PICU where we had multiple rollover ATV accidents causing death/severe brain damage in children because the parents were *****s and the parents risk assessment changed pretty quickly when they were crying next to their dying kid's vent.

Come over to post-concussive/neuro/psych clinics after kids have had a few concussions from playing football and are now severely depressed, can't remember how to do basic math, can barely return to school. Parental risk assessment tends to change pretty quickly here as well.

It's like all the COVID hospitalizations now. Go check out the hermancainaward subreddit. Lots of quickly changing risk assessments as soon as THEY are the ones in the hospital on Bipap about to go on the vent.

100% the comment above, humans are terrible at risk assessment. Just like the "rational man" economic argument is totally ridiculous. Taking the extreme libertarian view that everyone should basically be able to do whatever they want is essentially not compatible with a functioning society

 

[vector2]

I'm not avoiding anything, I don't have anything to say really about the hospital numbers. I'm not arguing about that, they are what are at this point.

You absolutely are avoiding it. Your narrative, which is disconnected from reality, is that the pediatric morbidity and mortality from covid is so minimal that there is no compelling argument to recommend vaccination in children of all ages.

This narrative is not congruent with the statistics, the unprecedented request to the FDA from pediatricians for expedited vaccine approval, and the fact that "a group of more than 220 children's hospitals are imploring the Biden administration for help, as a surge of young COVID-19 patients puts an "unprecedented strain" on their facilities and staff across the country."

 

[Matty44]

The government DOES mandate not driving drunk, not running a red light, etc.

The actions you mention affect (usually) only the individual and while their actions DO cause everyone else to have to help pay for their care, it is only a monetary hit and I am not at risk of getting hsopitalised by someone else getting into an ATV accident.

Seatbelts, while they do protect you, also keep you from flying out of the car and causing more accidents by cars avoiding your body.

As with all actions it is a risk vs benefit issue.
What is the “cost” of putting on a seatbelt, a mask, social distancing?
Vaccines, for sure, have a higher “cost” but the benefit, as seen by all the unvaxxed currently dying in hospitals all across US, is gigantic.

Like the army guy on FauxNews recently, who took all the mandated vaccines that they are supposed to take, but then had an issue with “freedumb” when covid vaccine was mandated, these actions are less about “personal choice” or “my body my choice” (which is a WHOLE separate argument regarding Republicans assault on womens rights), and more about their political stance

I mention the seatbelts, ATVs etc as a point of people being able to determine their own activities and the risks that accompany them. I did have to lol at the flying bodies comment though . I know there’s an element of truth to that, but I highly doubt that is what’s behind the seatbelt laws.

And you seem to be conflating adults and kids here. My discussion is about potential mandated vaccines need kids, not adults. And children are NOT ‘dying in hospitals all across the US’ in any significant numbers. Need I remind you that under 500 out of over 75 million kids have died during the entire pandemic, the majority of which were not healthy to begin with.

 

[greatnt249]

My discussion is about potential mandated vaccines need kids, not adults. And children are NOT ‘dying in hospitals all across the US’ in any significant numbers. Need I remind you that under 500 out of over 75 million kids have died during the entire pandemic, the majority of which were not healthy to begin with.

Again, death is not the only thing to consider when discussing the utility of vaccination.

 

[Matty44]

The Floridian “strategy” in a nutshell.
Make it illegal to mandate masks, vaccines.
Fine businesses who ask for vaccine status.
No masks in schools.
Exposed kids don’t have to isolate.

Watch your kids, teachers, neighbours, die

See, yours is the kind of rhetoric that is wholly hyperbolic, unnecessary, and is the fear tactics that have been used in large part by the media and it results in people overestimating the threat of covid. Like how over 40% of Democrats think if you get covid you have a 50% or greater chance of being hospitalized. And the high number of people amongst republicans and independents who think the same is also concerning. It’s people that make comments like you that result in a neighbor who I know who was “literally terrified” to send her healthy 2 year old to day care this fall. She had so much anxiety and even contemplated quitting her job just to keep him home. That’s sad. That’s unnecessary.

 

[Matty44]

Again, death is not the only thing to consider when discussing the utility of vaccination.

Again, I don’t at all question the utility of the vaccine, just a potential mandate for kids.

 

[Matty44]

You absolutely are avoiding it. Your narrative, which is disconnected from reality, is that the pediatric morbidity and mortality from covid is so minimal that there is no compelling argument to recommend vaccination in children of all ages.

My “narrative” is not that at all. When have I ever said vaccines shouldn’t be recommended? I have zero problems with vaccination being recommended to all children (even though it’s not currently recommended by the FDA) once approved. I have a problem with mandating it and removing all capacity from parents to assess risks individually, thats all.

And yes, the morbidity and mortality among children is minimal enough on a percentage basis that it is not compelling enough to warrant removing autonomy from people over medical decisions.

 

[vector2]

My “narrative” is not that at all. When have I ever said vaccines shouldn’t be recommended? I have zero problems with vaccination being recommended to all children (even though it’s not currently recommended by the FDA) once approved. I have a problem with mandating it and removing all capacity from parents to assess risks individually, thats all.

And yes, the morbidity and mortality among children is minimal enough on a percentage basis that it is not compelling enough to warrant removing autonomy from people over medical decisions.

The parents' ultimate capacity is not removed. They can send their kids to a school without a mandate or home school if they mistakenly believe the risks [of a soon to be FDA approved vaccine for which every pediatrician on earth is clamoring] outweigh the benefits.

And this is what? Time number three where you say the morbidity and mortality is minimal and but yet can't address the fact that children's hospitals in large swaths of the country are overwhelmed by covid? That's not conspicuous or contradictory at all...

 

[greatnt249]

Again, I don’t at all question the utility of the vaccine, just a potential mandate for kids.

But your argument against potential mandate(s) has been pretty consistently pointing out how low the mortality rate in children is.

And yes, the morbidity and mortality among children is minimal enough on a percentage basis that it is not compelling enough to warrant removing autonomy from people over medical decisions.

This text-equivalent of hand-waving consistently ignores what other posters have pointed out to you in that pediatric hospitals are under significant strain from COVID admissions.

 

[vector2]

.

Like the army guy on FauxNews recently, who took all the mandated vaccines that they are supposed to take, but then had an issue with “freedumb” when covid vaccine was mandated, these actions are less about “personal choice” or “my body my choice” (which is a WHOLE separate argument regarding Republicans assault on womens rights), and more about their political stance

That guy is the ultimate poster boy / index case for this pseudostrain of anti-vaxxerism masquerading as concern about natural immunity or concern about all the precious children or concern about liberty.

Now, if you were someone who back in 1996 was writing in Ron Paul for president and going to anti-seatbelt rallies and foregoing all these liberty violating vaccines for yourself and your children....then god bless. I can at least respect the decades-long consistency in your principles no matter how nuts they are.

The main thing I take issue with now is this sudden born again concern trolling about the vaccine and mandates. Nobody said JACK SH1T when Mississippi passed a child vaccine mandate that didn't even have an exemption for religious reasons. No matter the morbidity or mortality of the disease or the efficacy of the vaccine, a lack of religious exemption screams "liberty violation." And yet it was crickets. In Mississippi.

Fast forward to now and every jerkoff with a Google machine is an expert in virology, biostatistics, pediatric infectious disease, and epidemiology. And naturally they think their jerkoff opinion is just as valid as people who spent their whole lives studying these topics and who are running some of the largest medical studies in the history of planet earth.

 

[FutureInternist]

See, yours is the kind of rhetoric that is wholly hyperbolic, unnecessary, and is the fear tactics that have been used in large part by the media and it results in people overestimating the threat of covid. Like how over 40% of Democrats think if you get covid you have a 50% or greater chance of being hospitalized. And the high number of people amongst republicans and independents who think the same is also concerning. It’s people that make comments like you that result in a neighbor who I know who was “literally terrified” to send her healthy 2 year old to day care this fall. She had so much anxiety and even contemplated quitting her job just to keep him home. That’s sad. That’s unnecessary.

What is hyperbolic about mostly Republican states having bans on mask mandates, vaccine status laws etc. and also having the highest death rates.

When Trump himself gets booed for suggesting folks get vaccinated, you know there is hardly any scientific, “my body” etc reason for their continued refusal, and mostly to do with their political stance.

And these are the same folks who won’t take a vaccination to help save a life cos of “freedom” but force a woman to go through pregnancy, even if raped, to save a “life”

Even if the kids themselves are not harmed (although the fairly recent TX hospitals running out of Peds ICU beds was a problem), they can obviously pass it to all the adults they come into contact with.

 

[FutureInternist]

The parents' ultimate capacity is not removed. They can send their kids to a school without a mandate or home school if they mistakenly believe the risks [of a soon to be FDA approved vaccine for which every pediatrician on earth is clamoring] outweigh the benefits.

And this is what? Time number three where you say the morbidity and mortality is minimal and but yet can't address the fact that children's hospitals in large swaths of the country are overwhelmed by covid? That's not conspicuous or contradictory at all...

“Mistakenly” is too nice a word for their continued ignorance in the face of mountains of evidence.

And parents right to send kids to schools w/o masks etc still puts everybody in the community at risk.

 

[Matty44]

What is hyperbolic about mostly Republican states having bans on mask mandates, vaccine status laws etc. and also having the highest death rates.

When Trump himself gets booed for suggesting folks get vaccinated, you know there is hardly any scientific, “my body” etc reason for their continued refusal, and mostly to do with their political stance.

And these are the same folks who won’t take a vaccination to help save a life cos of “freedom” but force a woman to go through pregnancy, even if raped, to save a “life”

Even if the kids themselves are not harmed (although the fairly recent TX hospitals running out of Peds ICU beds was a problem), they can obviously pass it to all the adults they come into contact with.

What is hyperbolic is you saying that if you don’t mask or vaccinate you are gonna kill kids. That is PURE hyperbole.

And not too mention that the top 10 death rates by state for covid go:

MS - Red
NJ - Blue
LA- Red
AL - Red
NY - Blue
AZ - Purple
MA - Blue
RI - Blue
AK - Red
FL - Red

That’s a pretty even distribution to me. But obviously places where there are more unvaccinated adults are having more deaths at this current moment in time. Who’s arguing that? I am, and have only ever been arguing about kids.

Question for you (and everyone else)…How much less likely is a vaccinated person to pass on covid than an unvaccinated person?

 

[greatnt249]

Question for you (and everyone else)…How much less likely is a vaccinated person to pass on covid than an unvaccinated person?

The purpose of vaccination is not to prevent passing on COVID or even contracting COVID. The purpose of vaccination is to reduce the potential morbidity/mortality associated with COVID...you know, ostensibly to prevent overwhelming hospital systems.

I have a suspicion that even after I post this, the goalposts will get shifted again.

 

[FutureInternist]

What is hyperbolic is you saying that if you don’t mask or vaccinate you are gonna kill kids. That is PURE hyperbole.

And not too mention that the top 10 death rates by state for covid go:

MS - Red
NJ - Blue
LA- Red
AL - Red
NY - Blue
AZ - Purple
MA - Blue
RI - Blue
AK - Red
FL - Red

That’s a pretty even distribution to me. But obviously places where there are more unvaccinated adults are having more deaths at this current moment in time. Who’s arguing that? I am, and have only ever been arguing about kids.

Question for you (and everyone else)…How much less likely is a vaccinated person to pass on covid than an unvaccinated person?

Ummm… I just mentioned that even if kids don’t die, they can still spread it, and kill teachers, granny etc

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

 

[Matty44]

The parents' ultimate capacity is not removed. They can send their kids to a school without a mandate or home school if they mistakenly believe the risks [of a soon to be FDA approved vaccine for which every pediatrician on earth is clamoring] outweigh the benefits.

And this is what? Time number three where you say the morbidity and mortality is minimal and but yet can't address the fact that children's hospitals in large swaths of the country are overwhelmed by covid? That's not conspicuous or contradictory at all...

Ok, yeah, you’re not really taking the parents choice away, it’s just that their kids can’t participate in society if they don’t comply? Is that how it goes? That’s not really a choice.

And yes, there have been a bunch of hospitalizations during the current delta wave. Who’s arguing against that. There’s also a pool of 75 million kids with a highly transmissible disease. So even though the total numbers are high during this current spike (which is already starting to wane like many other country’s delta spikes), it’s still a low rate overall. Not to mention that a new study posits that about half (48%) of all covid hospitalizations in this “post vaccination era” fall into the mild or asymptomatic category, where one might be on the floor overnight or even in the ICU for an unrelated condition/surgery and happen to test positive for covid. So there’s that.

The COVID-19 Hospitalization Metric in the Pre- and Post-vaccination Eras as a Measure of Pandemic Severity: A Retrospective, Nationwide Cohort Study

Importance: Since the early days of the pandemic, COVID-19 hospitalizations have been used as a measure of pandemic severity. However, case definitions do not include assessments of disease severity, which may be impacted by prior vaccination.Objective: </strong...

www.researchsquare.com

 

[Matty44]

Ummm… I just mentioned that even if kids don’t die, they can still spread it, and kill teachers, granny etc

And I asked you how much more likely is someone who is unvaccinated to transmit covid to a teacher or granny than a vaccinated person.

 

[Matty44]

The purpose of vaccination is not to prevent passing on COVID or even contracting COVID. The purpose of vaccination is to reduce the potential morbidity/mortality associated with COVID...you know, ostensibly to prevent overwhelming hospital systems.

I have a suspicion that even after I post this, the goalposts will get shifted again.

Wait wait wait a sec here. If we’re talking about goal posts being shifted….

Everyone here has been saying they’d be fine with a mandate for kids because it’s not about personal risk, it’s about risk to society from one not being vaccinated. And now you’re telling me the purpose of the vaccine is only to protect the one who gets it?

So then why should it be mandated ever?

 

[FutureInternist]

And I asked you how much more likely is someone who is unvaccinated to transmit covid to a teacher or granny than a vaccinated person.

I was talking about it from a masked standpoint…since kids can’t get vaccinated currently as is

 

[greatnt249]

Wait wait wait a sec here. If we’re talking about goal posts being shifted….

Everyone here has been saying they’d be fine with a mandate for kids because it’s not about personal risk, it’s about risk to society from one not being vaccinated. And now you’re telling me the purpose of the vaccine is only to protect the one who gets it?

So then why should it be mandated ever?

Did...did you even read my reply? Reducing morbidity/mortality to not overwhelm hospital systems not only does the individual a favor, but society as a whole. Just because you might do fine if you get infected doesn't mean others will if they come into contact with you.

 

[Matty44]

I was talking about it from a masked standpoint…since kids can’t get vaccinated currently as is

Well, since this discussion (at least what I’ve been involved in) has been about if we should mandate vaccines for children, and because 1/3 of kids under 18 can get vaccinated, I thought we were talking about vaccines. Why are you bringing up masks?

 

[Matty44]

Did...did you even read my reply? Reducing morbidity/mortality to not overwhelm hospital systems not only does the individual a favor, but society as a whole. Just because you might do fine if you get infected doesn't mean others will if they come into contact with you.

Ok, so you are or you aren’t saying its about not infecting others? Cause you keep going back and forth.

And if it’s about hospital capacity, then would you be fine not mandating it for kids if the hospital numbers go down to where they were before the delta spike of the last 8 weeks?

 

[greatnt249]

Ok, so you are or you aren’t saying its about not infecting others? Cause you keep going back and forth.

And if it’s about hospital capacity, then would you be fine not mandating it for kids if the hospital numbers go down to where they were before the delta spike of the last 8 weeks?

I'm not going back and forth at all; when I joined the discussion it was to point out to you that mortality wasn't the only thing to consider. You're free to re-read my posts if you wish; that's the beauty of having things in writing. You, on the other hand, avoid answering direct questions or comments by arguing against stances or questions that were never asked...that's called a strawman fallacy.

To directly answer your question, no, I would not be fine removing a mandate for children if hospital numbers go down...that's how we got into this position over the spring/summer. Vaccine came out, wave ended, people split into vaccinated/unvaccinated camps, and then another wave hit. I'm not exactly thrilled that we even have to have mandates to begin with, but the reason it has come to this is because at some point our society has decided that we just can't play nice in the sandbox with one another.

Let me ask you a question; whose responsibility is it to end this pandemic?

 

[Matty44]

I'm not going back and forth at all; when I joined the discussion it was to point out to you that mortality wasn't the only thing to consider. You're free to re-read my posts if you wish; that's the beauty of having things in writing. You, on the other hand, avoid answering direct questions or comments by arguing against stances or questions that were never asked...that's called a strawman fallacy.

To directly answer your question, no, I would not be fine removing a mandate for children if hospital numbers go down...that's how we got into this position over the spring/summer. Vaccine came out, wave ended, people split into vaccinated/unvaccinated camps, and then another wave hit. I'm not exactly thrilled that we even have to have mandates to begin with, but the reason it has come to this is because at some point our society has decided that we just can't play nice in the sandbox with one another.

Let me ask you a question; whose responsibility is it to end this pandemic?

I don’t know what questions I haven’t answered directly. But I’ll try and answer yours. I do think that responsibility can be spread out across the board and everyone should try and be wise with their decision making, be responsible when around others, and isolate themselves and get tested when sick. From a public policy standpoint, I think it’s the governments responsibility to dole out the vaccine and appropriately encourage (not through scare tactics and hyperbole) people to take the vaccine. I think it’s the media’s responsibility to report accurately and without bias (lol I know) the data and up to date science, not to fear monger and add to the division across political lines.

I think it’s everyone’s responsibility to protect themselves to the degree that they see fit. If an 80 year old doesn’t want to get vaccinated, that’s an unwise decision per the data; but that’s up to them. Same goes for a 40 year old. Same goes for a 14 year old. But I think the degree of foolishness of skipping the vaccine decreases dramatically with age.

I think it’s the hospitals and physicians responsibility to care for sick patients as best as possible and to inform patients of risks according to the latest data.

I do not think it’s my responsibility to lower your risk to the absolute possible lowest degree while throwing my own concerns and personal/family risk assessments to the wind.

I do not think it’s the governments job to take away pt autonomy by mandating a vaccine.

 

[vector2]

Ok, yeah, you’re not really taking the parents choice away, it’s just that their kids can’t participate in society if they don’t comply? Is that how it goes? That’s not really a choice.

And yes, there have been a bunch of hospitalizations during the current delta wave. Who’s arguing against that. There’s also a pool of 75 million kids with a highly transmissible disease. So even though the total numbers are high during this current spike (which is already starting to wane like many other country’s delta spikes), it’s still a low rate overall. Not to mention that a new study posits that about half (48%) of all covid hospitalizations in this “post vaccination era” fall into the mild or asymptomatic category, where one might be on the floor overnight or even in the ICU for an unrelated condition/surgery and happen to test positive for covid. So there’s that.

The COVID-19 Hospitalization Metric in the Pre- and Post-vaccination Eras as a Measure of Pandemic Severity: A Retrospective, Nationwide Cohort Study

Importance: Since the early days of the pandemic, COVID-19 hospitalizations have been used as a measure of pandemic severity. However, case definitions do not include assessments of disease severity, which may be impacted by prior vaccination.Objective: </strong...

www.researchsquare.com

No, it's definitely a choice. Just cause you don't like the choice doesn't mean it's not one. Participating in society means actually having to care about the public health aspect of vaccination, which very clearly you don't since you just keep going on and on and on about only the individual's risk of death, as if that's the only issue at stake. When you approach the issue from that selfish perspective, then of course you would frame it as "no choice at all" when in fact it is.

And it's pretty much the same choice as all the other prior mandated vaccines for diseases which are less morbid than or less deadly than covid. The same vaccines which I'm sure you didn't give a second thought toward, and for which I'm sure you couldn't have told me the types of side effects or the rates of those side effects. But now that you have this "mah liberty, mah freedums" right-wing covid vaccine concern trolling narrative to fulfill when it comes to the naturally immune or children or whatever else etc, the ballgame has suddenly changed.

I'm glad that you're acknowledging that there have been a "bunch of hospitalizations during the current delta wave." But I'm unable to understand how you're unable to understand how laughably idiotic it is to state "it's still a low rate overall" when *hundreds* of children's hospitals in *multiple* states are telling anyone who will listen that they are unable to deal with the additional strain caused by the number of pediatric covid infections. How can something be not that bad and yet still be causing a disruption to healthcare infrastructure this awful?

Are you not aware that this is the *fourth* covid wave since the pandemic began? Are you not aware that pretty much every prediction stating there would be no further waves or variants or shutdowns or return to masking has been wrong? Do you not understand that we can't reach herd immunity until enough of those 75 million kids are vaccinated (or, god forbid, infected)? Do you not see the cognitive dissonance that is occurring as you persist in spitting out how low kids' risk is while simultaneously ignoring the other kids who couldn't even get a PICU bed in all of the DFW area and 19 surrounding counties? Jesus, get a clue.

 

[vector2]

The RNC and trump are usually pretty good at coming up with grifts aimed against their supporters, but honestly this ain't the best one I've ever heard of.

Typically, when you're grifting someone it's best not to let the scheme lead to the imminent demise of the griftee. Because if they die in an ICU then you can't fleece them again and again and again. You know, golden goose and all.

 

[nimbus]

Should states like Washington with high vaccination rates be obligated to accept patients from low vaccination states like Idaho when they run out of beds? Who pays?

Information about Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19)

Idaho public health officials are monitoring the novel coronavirus disease situation very closely. Visit for the latest number of cases & breakdown.

coronavirus.idaho.gov

States ranked by percentage of population fully vaccinated

Vermont has the highest percentage of its population fully vaccinated against COVID-19, according to the CDC's COVID-19 vaccine distribution and administration data tracker.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

 

[Matty44]

No, it's definitely a choice. Just cause you don't like the choice doesn't mean it's not one. Participating in society means actually having to care about the public health aspect of vaccination, which very clearly you don't since you just keep going on and on and on about only the individual's risk of death, as if that's the only issue at stake. When you approach the issue from that selfish perspective, then of course you would frame it as "no choice at all" when in fact it is.

You're saying that in order to participate in society you must put the greater good of public health above what you believe is best for you and your family? And that if I put what I believe is best for my off spring before the needs of the general public, then I'm selfish? I think I understand ya.

"The common good before the individual good" aka "gemeinnutz geht vor eigennutz" as I believe someone once said.

And it's pretty much the same choice as all the other prior mandated vaccines for diseases which are less morbid than or less deadly than covid. The same vaccines which I'm sure you didn't give a second thought toward, and for which I'm sure you couldn't have told me the types of side effects or the rates of those side effects. But now that you have this "mah liberty, mah freedums" right-wing covid vaccine concern trolling narrative to fulfill when it comes to the naturally immune or children or whatever else etc, the ballgame has suddenly changed.

Again and again you keep going back to other vaccines that you presume I think differently about than the covid vaccine, and again, I'll refer you to the fact that it is a novel virus and a novel type of vaccine. A vaccine that we thought prevented transmission, but now we know it doesn't. A vaccine that we thought just needed two shots and you were good, but now you need a third. And what about a fourth? Fifth? Who knows? There's still a lot of unknowns. That's the point. A vaccine that hasn't even yet been proven safe and effective in children under 12, yet you already are convinced that I'm nuts and selfish to even consider not vaccinating my young child when/if it becomes FDA approved. You can do the typical game of lumping me in with the MAGA crowd as some kind of caricature of a right-wing, antivax, looney tune, but its merely a way to distract from the point that if someone want's to give it a minute before they vaccinate their four year old, that's a perfectly reasonable stance to take at this point in time, due to the very low risk of harm to said 4 year old. And yeah, I'm gonna keep saying very low risk.

I'm glad that you're acknowledging that there have been a "bunch of hospitalizations during the current delta wave." But I'm unable to understand how you're unable to understand how laughably idiotic it is to state "it's still a low rate overall" when *hundreds* of children's hospitals in *multiple* states are telling anyone who will listen that they are unable to deal with the additional strain caused by the number of pediatric covid infections. How can something be not that bad and yet still be causing a disruption to healthcare infrastructure this awful?

I'm able to say its a low rate overall, because it is a low rate overall. Like ~0.05% hospitalization rate, of which 98%+ will recover fully. So yeah, that's how. Even if there is a spike in pediatric hospitalizations cause of delta and school starting, that doesn't negate statistics.

Are you not aware that this is the *fourth* covid wave since the pandemic began? Are you not aware that pretty much every prediction stating there would be no further waves or variants or shutdowns or return to masking has been wrong? Do you not understand that we can't reach herd immunity until enough of those 75 million kids are vaccinated (or, god forbid, infected)? Do you not see the cognitive dissonance that is occurring as you persist in spitting out how low kids' risk is while simultaneously ignoring the other kids who couldn't even get a PICU bed in all of the DFW area and 19 surrounding counties? Jesus, get a clue.

I get it, there's been a delta spike, I do. Can you link me to some stories of children not receiving the medical attention that they need please? Which children have been harmed by the lack of medical care available to them cause of the lack of ICU space? Like actual, specific info about people that have been unable to receive needed medical attention, not some activist judge who fear mongers by telling the public that 'your kid is just gonna have to wait for another kid to die if they want to get care for covid.' And most importantly, can you tie these needs to unvaccinated people? Cause if you can't, then its just an unfortunate part of the pandemic and the delta spike. So I'll ask you as I asked before but never got an answer, how much more likely is an unvaccinated person to transmit covid than a vaccinated one? Also, how much of the issues at hospitals are due to staffing shortages?

 

[Airway]

. Can you link me to some stories of children not receiving the medical attention that they need please? Which children have been harmed by the lack of medical care available to them cause of the lack of ICU space? Like actual, specific info about people that have been unable to receive needed medical attention, not some activist judge who fear mongers by telling the public that 'your kid is just gonna have to wait for another kid to die if they want to get care for covid.' And most importantly, can you tie these needs to unvaccinated people? Cause if you can't, then its just an unfortunate part of the pandemic and the delta spike. So I'll ask you as I asked before but never got an answer, how much more likely is an unvaccinated person to transmit covid than a vaccinated one? Also, how much of the issues at hospitals are due to staffing shortages?

I don't get how linking to stories of children's hospitals being full and preventing care for other stuff proves anything - but sure.

Baby with COVID-19, in need of an ICU bed, was airlifted to a hospital 150 miles away

In a sign that the delta variant is affecting more children on a daily basis, a baby in Texas has contracted COVID-19, and she had to be airlifted to a hospital 150 miles away because there were no ICU beds for her at the pediatric hospital in Houston.

www.1011now.com

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

 

[Matty44]

I don't get how linking to stories of children's hospitals being full and preventing care for other stuff proves anything - but sure.

Baby with COVID-19, in need of an ICU bed, was airlifted to a hospital 150 miles away

In a sign that the delta variant is affecting more children on a daily basis, a baby in Texas has contracted COVID-19, and she had to be airlifted to a hospital 150 miles away because there were no ICU beds for her at the pediatric hospital in Houston.

www.1011now.com

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

You neglected the most important part of my question. Can you tie this to unvaccinated people and to what degree (in line with the whole theme of "Is an unvaccinated child a big risk to the public good" topic here)?

 

[THtoo]

I haven't read this thread in it's entirety but wanted to share a personal experience. FWIW, as a parent I totally understand concerns about vaccinating a child with low individual risk of serious illness, or being forced to do anything to your child that you don't feel comfortable with - even though I am vaccinated myself and am pro-vaccine in general. I appreciate that there is a lot of nuance to this topic and am just trying to respond to the question of whether hospitals being overwhelmed is really affecting kids and whether this relates to unvaccinated people, apologies if I've missed something earlier in the thread.

It's only an n of 1 but I recently took care of a newborn patient with a critical condition that could only be treated in the PICU, which was located less than an hour away. Transfer was delayed for many hours because both the NICU and PICU were full at least in part because of COVID surge. While awaiting transfer, the respiratory therapy service at my hospital (which was fully staffed) was insufficiently available because they were taking care of COVID patients - all our ICU beds were taken by vented COVID patients, plus 10 patients on floor with COVID, as well COVID patients boarding in ED due to lack of beds. I don't know about the vaccination status of these specific adult patients, but in other reports, the vast majority of hospitalized and ICU patients across the US are unvaccinated.

E.g.:
www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/24/cdc-study-shows-unvaccinated-people-are-29-times-more-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

Wisconsin breaks out COVID-19 data into fully vaccinated & unvaccinated

The agency indicated the charts now provided show that the recent spike in cases is largely driven by people who are not fully vaccinated

www.nbc15.com

Delta variant devastation: Florida hospitals show vaccinated vs unvaccinated ICU patient data

Health systems in Florida are using easy-to-understand infographics to demonstrate how good the COVID vaccines are at keeping people out of the hospital.

www.fastcompany.com

This article discusses the odds of transmission by unvaccinated vs vaccinated individuals, and may not be the data you are looking for but I think provides a useful way to think about it. No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People

This isn't meant to be fear mongering, but it was heartbreaking and I wanted to share how at least one family was affected by a covid-overwhelmed health system. I also want to acknowledge the psychological toll on providers who are seeing this sort of situation (and I have heard other similar reports anecdotally from colleagues).

I think an argument could be made that if we got adult vaccination rates high enough, that might be enough to break the chain of transmission and protect kids, without mandating vaccines for the youngest age group. But I don't know if that will happen realistically.

 

[nimbus]

Steven Shafer…one of the smartest guys around.

“It has been estimated that R0 for the Delta variant, the initial reproduction number in a susceptible population, is approximately 7 (Lancet July 2021). Herd immunity occurs when a closed group of individuals has sufficient immunity that a new infection does not initiate an outbreak. The threshold can be calculated as 1-1/R0. For the Delta variant, the herd immunity threshold is 1-1/7, or 86%. No country is close to that level of immunity. However, it probably does not matter. Herd immunity requires a closed system to protect those without immunity. As long as new cases are continually introduced from outside the “herd,” nobody inside the herd is safe without immunity. Put another way, unvaccinated individuals are not protected if even 86% of their neighbors are vaccinated. Our exceptional social mobility ensures that individuals from outside will continuously expose everyone in the community to COVID-19. If you are not vaccinated, you will eventually get COVID-19. It is only a matter of time. With the Delta variant, you may not have to wait very long.”


“Herd immunity failed to protect Manaus, Brazil, or Iquitos, Peru, from a highly infectious variant. Because restrictions had been relaxed, both experienced surges in cases and deaths as severe as during the original wave of the pandemic. These cities are cautionary tales for the rest of the world.
In a perspective article in Science, two University of Edinburgh researchers review the implications of the surges in Manaus and Iquitos on public health strategies for SARS-CoV-2 (Science 2021;371:230-1). Drs. Sridhar and Gurdasani conclude that “Achieving herd immunity through infection will be very costly in terms of mortality and morbidity, with little guarantee of success .... Even a mitigation strategy whereby the virus is allowed to spread through the population with the objective of keeping admissions just below health care capacity, as is done for influenza virus, is clearly misguided for SARS-CoV-2.””

Get Vaccinated, or Get COVID-19 | ASA Monitor | American Society of Anesthesiologists

pubs.asahq.org

 

[nimbus]

We don’t have an exclusive on idiots and shysters.



“A popular shaman in Sri Lanka who claimed to be able to cure coronavirus patients with a holy water died last week after being infected with the virus, a health ministry official said this weekend.

The shaman, known as Eliyantha Lindsay White, was not vaccinated. He died on Wednesday after being taken to a hospital, the official said.

Mr. White was an influential and divisive figure in Sri Lanka, where about 53 percent of people have been fully vaccinated against the coronavirus, according to the Our World in Data project at the University of Oxford. The shaman, who was 48, practiced alternative medicine involving questionable potions whose ingredients were never publicly disclosed.

Some high-ranking officials in the Sri Lankan government and several professional athletes have said publicly that they believed in Mr. White’s healing powers. But he was denounced by medical professionals.

“There is no credible evidence to show if there was a positive result from his work,” said Dr. Samantha Ananda, a spokeswoman for the Government Medical Officers’ Association, a major trade union for doctors in Sri Lanka. “We do not recommend anything that is not proven in a scientific method.”

Dr. Ananda said that the politicians who had publicly endorsed Mr. White might have done so to ingratiate themselves with his legion of fans.

Contact information for Mr. White’s family was not available, and a telephone message left with a person close to the family was not returned.

In November, three ministers in Sri Lanka’s government, including a former health minister, were shown on video throwing pots containing Mr. White’s holy water into several rivers that serve as the main sources of drinking water in the country. Mr. White had said that ingesting the concoction would cure Covid-19.

Pavithra Wanniarachchi, the former health minister, subsequently contracted the virus and spent two weeks in intensive care, according to the BBC. None of the three ministers in the video responded to phone calls seeking comment.”

A Sri Lankan shaman who touted a cure for Covid died after contracting the disease. (Published 2021)

Eliyantha Lindsay White, who was not vaccinated, claimed to be able to cure coronavirus patients using a holy water.

www.nytimes.com

 

[gasdoc77]

You're saying that in order to participate in society you must put the greater good of public health above what you believe is best for you and your family? And that if I put what I believe is best for my off spring before the needs of the general public, then I'm selfish? I think I understand ya.

"The common good before the individual good" aka "gemeinnutz geht vor eigennutz" as I believe someone once said.



Again and again you keep going back to other vaccines that you presume I think differently about than the covid vaccine, and again, I'll refer you to the fact that it is a novel virus and a novel type of vaccine. A vaccine that we thought prevented transmission, but now we know it doesn't. A vaccine that we thought just needed two shots and you were good, but now you need a third. And what about a fourth? Fifth? Who knows? There's still a lot of unknowns. That's the point. A vaccine that hasn't even yet been proven safe and effective in children under 12, yet you already are convinced that I'm nuts and selfish to even consider not vaccinating my young child when/if it becomes FDA approved. You can do the typical game of lumping me in with the MAGA crowd as some kind of caricature of a right-wing, antivax, looney tune, but its merely a way to distract from the point that if someone want's to give it a minute before they vaccinate their four year old, that's a perfectly reasonable stance to take at this point in time, due to the very low risk of harm to said 4 year old. And yeah, I'm gonna keep saying very low risk.



I'm able to say its a low rate overall, because it is a low rate overall. Like ~0.05% hospitalization rate, of which 98%+ will recover fully. So yeah, that's how. Even if there is a spike in pediatric hospitalizations cause of delta and school starting, that doesn't negate statistics.


I get it, there's been a delta spike, I do. Can you link me to some stories of children not receiving the medical attention that they need please? Which children have been harmed by the lack of medical care available to them cause of the lack of ICU space? Like actual, specific info about people that have been unable to receive needed medical attention, not some activist judge who fear mongers by telling the public that 'your kid is just gonna have to wait for another kid to die if they want to get care for covid.' And most importantly, can you tie these needs to unvaccinated people? Cause if you can't, then its just an unfortunate part of the pandemic and the delta spike. So I'll ask you as I asked before but never got an answer, how much more likely is an unvaccinated person to transmit covid than a vaccinated one? Also, how much of the issues at hospitals are due to staffing shortages?

For starters, we should substitute the word "treatment" (preventive, prophylactic, novel, whatever) in wherever the word vaccine appears. Rhetorically (and scientifically) it is more appropriate and the arguments read differently.

 

[vector2]

You're saying that in order to participate in society you must put the greater good of public health above what you believe is best for you and your family? And that if I put what I believe is best for my off spring before the needs of the general public, then I'm selfish? I think I understand ya.

"The common good before the individual good" aka "gemeinnutz geht vor eigennutz" as I believe someone once said.

Even for King Troll Matty this is just an incredible strawman. Jumping from my contention that participating in society is a balance between the needs of the individual and the needs of the many......to you straight up Godwin's Law'ing it and quoting Nazis. SMH.

I get it, there's been a delta spike, I do.

Well, apparently you really, really don't get it. You don't understand the virulence, you don't understand the mortality and morbidity, you don't understand the numbers, and you don't the public health crisis aspects. You can quote "0.05%" and 98% recovery until you're blue in the face, but the fact remains you are buried by the cognitive dissonance of trying to reconcile simultaneous views that "covid isn't that bad in kids because of X statistic" with "holy sh/t every pediatrician on earth is begging for a vaccine and every 3 months 250 children's hospitals are getting overrun like it's the zombie apocalypse." Others above have already linked articles showing how care was affected and how unvaccinated transmission likely predominates. But I'm sure you'll ignore those too just like everything else that interferes with your political narrative.

 

[gasdoc77]

Steven Shafer…one of the smartest guys around.

“It has been estimated that R0 for the Delta variant, the initial reproduction number in a susceptible population, is approximately 7 (Lancet July 2021). Herd immunity occurs when a closed group of individuals has sufficient immunity that a new infection does not initiate an outbreak. The threshold can be calculated as 1-1/R0. For the Delta variant, the herd immunity threshold is 1-1/7, or 86%. No country is close to that level of immunity. However, it probably does not matter. Herd immunity requires a closed system to protect those without immunity. As long as new cases are continually introduced from outside the “herd,” nobody inside the herd is safe without immunity. Put another way, unvaccinated individuals are not protected if even 86% of their neighbors are vaccinated. Our exceptional social mobility ensures that individuals from outside will continuously expose everyone in the community to COVID-19. If you are not vaccinated, you will eventually get COVID-19. It is only a matter of time. With the Delta variant, you may not have to wait very long.”


“Herd immunity failed to protect Manaus, Brazil, or Iquitos, Peru, from a highly infectious variant. Because restrictions had been relaxed, both experienced surges in cases and deaths as severe as during the original wave of the pandemic. These cities are cautionary tales for the rest of the world.
In a perspective article in Science, two University of Edinburgh researchers review the implications of the surges in Manaus and Iquitos on public health strategies for SARS-CoV-2 (Science 2021;371:230-1). Drs. Sridhar and Gurdasani conclude that “Achieving herd immunity through infection will be very costly in terms of mortality and morbidity, with little guarantee of success .... Even a mitigation strategy whereby the virus is allowed to spread through the population with the objective of keeping admissions just below health care capacity, as is done for influenza virus, is clearly misguided for SARS-CoV-2.””

Get Vaccinated, or Get COVID-19 | ASA Monitor | American Society of Anesthesiologists

pubs.asahq.org

Apparently not that bright since he arrived at the wrong conclusion based upon his own stem.