'UW says its doctors in training want too much money'

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You'd be wrong... Sure, a higher salary would be nice, but it's a finite period of time and afterwards your salary level significantly increases. NP and PA salaries don't increase like that.
What do you mean it's a finite period of time? Some people spend 7 years in residency/fellowship, I'd say that's a pretty damn long time to just brush off as a "finite period of time". That's delayed gratification to the extreme right there.

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What do you mean it's a finite period of time? Some people spend 7 years in residency/fellowship, I'd say that's a pretty damn long time to just brush off as a "finite period of time". That's delayed gratification to the extreme right there.
And those 7 years end up producing on the whole significantly higher salaries than those of us who do shorter residencies and no fellowships.
 
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And those 7 years end up producing on the whole significantly higher salaries than those of us who do shorter residencies and no fellowships.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather make more money sooner and enjoy it when I'm younger and healthier, than less money now and more later. (And by 'enjoy it', I mean pay off my debts, lol)

Either way my point was, residency is a long time to just brush off, whether it's 4 years or 7. Most Americans will have changed jobs numerous times to get higher salaries in that period.

And then you see PA's and NPs who just graduated with less education than you getting paid more and needing just as much supervision? That doesn't really make sense.
 
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I don't know about you, but I'd rather make more money sooner and enjoy it when I'm younger and healthier, than less money now and more later. (And by 'enjoy it', I mean pay off my debts, lol)

Then pick a different field with less training than whatever it is you want to do that's 7 years long. You have apparently decided that taking more time to get into your chosen field is worth the time and money commitment. You could always change that.

Either way my point was, residency is a long time to just brush off, whether it's 4 years or 7. Most Americans will have changed jobs numerous times to get higher salaries in that period.

Yes, and most of them will still make much much less than even us lowly family doctors do. The best man at my wedding got his CPA. He has done exactly what you describe and is now on his third post-college job (each paying better than the previous one). I still out-earn him by about 50%.

Besides, most folks use their early lower paying jobs to either learn a skill or gain experience to get those higher paying jobs. How is that not exactly what residency is doing for us? Plus, we are pretty much guaranteed jobs that pay quite well. No other field can boast as much.

And then you see PA's and NPs who just graduated with less education than you getting paid more and needing just as much supervision? That doesn't really make sense.

Get paid more for a defined period of time, then you will eclipse them several times over while they stay relatively stagnant.
 
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I don't know about you, but I'd rather make more money sooner and enjoy it when I'm younger and healthier, than less money now and more later. (And by 'enjoy it', I mean pay off my debts, lol)

Either way my point was, residency is a long time to just brush off, whether it's 4 years or 7. Most Americans will have changed jobs numerous times to get higher salaries in that period.

And then you see PA's and NPs who just graduated with less education than you getting paid more and needing just as much supervision? That doesn't really make sense.
Then don't go to med school. Things have been this way for decades. Not like residency was a surprise. If anything I've actually been pleasantly surprised by residency. It's not nearly as bad as I was expecting from reading this forum.

I think the big question is whether you're looking for a job or a career. If you just want to clock in and cash a paycheck then become a nurse, PA, NP or do any number of other jobs. If you are looking to build a career in medicine then go to med school.
 
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What do you mean it's a finite period of time? Some people spend 7 years in residency/fellowship, I'd say that's a pretty damn long time to just brush off as a "finite period of time". That's delayed gratification to the extreme right there.

Your posts would be taken more seriously if you didn't have so many issues understanding the arguments being made

...for example, knowing the definition of "finite."
 
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Your posts would be taken more seriously if you didn't have so many issues understanding the arguments being made

...for example, knowing the definition of "finite."
I know the definition of finite. I was taking issue with the fact that the poster was dismissing any concerns regarding income during that period because it's finite. It's still a long period of time, finite or not. Yes, it is guaranteed to be over in X number of years, but you still have to live through those years and there's nothing wrong with making the conditions during that time better.
 
Then don't go to med school. Things have been this way for decades. Not like residency was a surprise. If anything I've actually been pleasantly surprised by residency. It's not nearly as bad as I was expecting from reading this forum.

I think the big question is whether you're looking for a job or a career. If you just want to clock in and cash a paycheck then become a nurse, PA, NP or do any number of other jobs. If you are looking to build a career in medicine then go to med school.
I'm no expert on this, but based on articles I've read and what physicians have told me, more and more of them are ending up in the 'job' status than truly building a career anymore. Sounds like that's what the MBAs in charge of healthcare want the future to be.
 
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I know the definition of finite. I was taking issue with the fact that the poster was dismissing any concerns regarding income during that period because it's finite. It's still a long period of time, finite or not. Yes, it is guaranteed to be over in X number of years, but you still have to live through those years and there's nothing wrong with making the conditions during that time better.

50k is still a decent amount of money. you act like you're getting paid 20k/yr or something in residency. yes most of us have a lot of debt but unless you think you deserve a new BMW or something similar then you can do alright
 
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After 11-15 years of school damn right I'm entitled, they say 10,000 baby boomers are hitting 65 every day for the next 19 years, I hope this is true so there is a huge shortage and I can have no mercy in salary negotiations.
source?
 
50k is still a decent amount of money. you act like you're getting paid 20k/yr or something in residency. yes most of us have a lot of debt but unless you think you deserve a new BMW or something similar then you can do alright
Thats_just_your_opinion.jpg
 
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I'm no expert on this, but based on articles I've read and what physicians have told me, more and more of them are ending up in the 'job' status than truly building a career anymore. Sounds like that's what the MBAs in charge of healthcare want the future to be.

Even if that were true, there are almost no jobs or careers our there with as much stability or employability or compensation as being a physician. Other than one guy that was only willing to work in a grossly oversaturated area, I've never heard of any physician struggle to find a job (all of which I'm sure paid at least 150k+).


http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/baby-boomers-retire/
 
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What do you mean it's a finite period of time? Some people spend 7 years in residency/fellowship, I'd say that's a pretty damn long time to just brush off as a "finite period of time". That's delayed gratification to the extreme right there.

I spent 10 years in residency/fellowship...
 
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I know the definition of finite. I was taking issue with the fact that the poster was dismissing any concerns regarding income during that period because it's finite. It's still a long period of time, finite or not. Yes, it is guaranteed to be over in X number of years, but you still have to live through those years and there's nothing wrong with making the conditions during that time better.

My salary started in the upper 30s as an intern and ended in the mid 60s as a finishing fellow. I never went hungry. I owned a house for the majority of the time. I even got to save a good amount for retirement each year. I never considered myself poor. I certainly didn't whine that I wasn't making as much as the NP on the team.

The thing with PAs and NPs is that they get trained and once trained they usually stick around for a long time. They provide consistency. That's something that residents do not give the attending since they change every few weeks to different services. Yes, the midlevels are paid more, but they reach their ceiling fairly quickly where as an attending your salary skyrockets far past where the midlevel is at.
 
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The thing with PAs and NPs is that they get trained and once trained they usually stick around for a long time. They provide consistency. That's something that residents do not give the attending since they change every few weeks to different services. Yes, the midlevels are paid more, but they reach their ceiling fairly quickly where as an attending your salary skyrockets far past where the midlevel is at.

The NP/PAs are reimbursed at 85% of the physician rate for services, right? That doesn't sound like a skyrocketing difference in salary to me, especially since they have far less debt (at my school the entire PA program tuition = 1.5 years of MD school tuition).

I'm obviously not an expert on salaries so if I'm wrong, please correct me here.
 
The NP/PAs are paid at 85% of the physician for services according to what I've read. That doesn't sound like a skyrocketing difference in salary to me, especially since they have far less debt (at my school the entire PA program = 1 year of MD school).

I'm talking about salary, not RVUs. The average surgery PA salary is $115k. Average salary for a general surgeon in the US is about $250k. Quite a difference there.
 
I'm talking about salary, not RVUs. The average surgery PA salary is $115k. Average salary for a general surgeon in the US is about $250k. Quite a difference there.
Does that also translate into non-surgical specialties? Is a family doc also paid more than twice as much as a PA?
 
I'm talking about salary, not RVUs. The average surgery PA salary is $115k. Average salary for a general surgeon in the US is about $250k. Quite a difference there.

Best that I see is that a FP PA averages about $95k with the average FP physician salary at about $190k. Why are you arguing all these points as fact when you don't even know the data?
 
Really not sure why people are so worked up about salaries.

We probably have one of the most transparent training system in terms of salary and benefits. Nearly every program posts it on their website. No need to go by industry averages or other indicators like in finance etc.

You could roughly calculate your salary for the entirety of residency prior to even applying there. If you don't like it, don't apply there.

The non ACGME stuff was just an illustration how the "free market" may not always lead to increased salaries as many assume.
 
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Really not sure why people are so worked up about salaries.

We probably have one of the most transparent training system in terms of salary and benefits. Nearly every program posts it on their website. No need to go by industry averages or other indicators like in finance etc.

You could roughly calculate your salary for the entirety of residency prior to even applying there. If you don't like it, don't apply there.

The non ACGME stuff was just an illustration how the "free market" may not always lead to increased salaries as many assume.

Because I think some of the people on here feel like they just deserve to get paid a high amount in residency. They try to equate a midlevel with a resident but really don't understand the issues. For the most part, it seems like the people arguing this here are medical students or have not had a residency...
 
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Then don't go to med school. Things have been this way for decades. Not like residency was a surprise. If anything I've actually been pleasantly surprised by residency. It's not nearly as bad as I was expecting from reading this forum.

I think the big question is whether you're looking for a job or a career. If you just want to clock in and cash a paycheck then become a nurse, PA, NP or do any number of other jobs. If you are looking to build a career in medicine then go to med school.


I dare you to tell any nurse what they do is a "job" and not a profession.
 
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Even if that were true, there are almost no jobs or careers our there with as much stability or employability or compensation as being a physician. Other than one guy that was only willing to work in a grossly oversaturated area, I've never heard of any physician struggle to find a job (all of which I'm sure paid at least 150k+).


Um, Pathology?
 
Best that I see is that a FP PA averages about $95k with the average FP physician salary at about $190k. Why are you arguing all these points as fact when you don't even know the data?
Nowhere was I arguing about attending salaries vs PA salaries. I was talking about resident vs PA.
 
I dare you to tell any nurse what they do is a "job" and not a profession.
Also, nurses can have as much of a career as a physician can nowadays. They can get positions in administration, academics, teaching, government, etc. They can go the NP route and practice independently, too. It's not just a 'job' anymore.
 
I know the definition of finite. I was taking issue with the fact that the poster was dismissing any concerns regarding income during that period because it's finite. It's still a long period of time, finite or not. Yes, it is guaranteed to be over in X number of years, but you still have to live through those years and there's nothing wrong with making the conditions during that time better.

The reason why those of us who have been through residency are rolling our eyes at you isn't because of some "I got mine, f-ck you" attitude. It's because (1) you haven't come up with a single mechanism for how or why hospitals should pay residents more other than "but I WAAAANNT IT!" and (2) you act like residents are forced to live in squalor and poverty ten to a hovel or something, which is just plain dumb. Hell I had A LOT of fun in residency, ate out a lot, lived in one of the trendiest neighborhoods in the country, saw plenty of shows, went to plenty of games, and still managed to save 8% for my retirement account. My lifestyle today isn't vastly different now than it was a year ago, though I was able to spend more on xmas gifts this year.
 
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Nowhere was I arguing about attending salaries vs PA salaries. I was talking about resident vs PA.

So if you go into FP, you have a 3 year residency. Data from 2014 shows salaries of $51k, $52k, and $54k for PGY1-3. Let's say you get a below average starting salary of $170k since you're a new attending. So by these basic numbers, in six years you would have earned about $667k pretax. Let's compare that to a PA. Taking just the average salary, of which it would likely be less when starting out, you'd make $570k pretax in six years. At 10 years with the same salaries, you'd be looking at $1.38 million for the MD and $0.95 million for the PA. 20 years? $3.05 million for the MD and $1.9 million for the PA.

So yes, even with 3 years of residency, you still make more than the PA. NPs earn on average less than a PA as well, so those comparisons are even worse.

But yeah, you worry about those 3 years of resident salaries when you're in the poor house. Nevermind that the average family income in 2014 was about $53k...
 
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But yeah, you worry about those 3 years of resident salaries when you're in the poor house. Nevermind that the average family income in 2014 was about $53k...
I'm not worried about it but I'd take a raise if I could get one, who wouldn't? I'm talking about the people here who keep arguing that we shouldn't even want a raise. Just because we're gonna make more later doesn't mean we shouldn't be making more now. I mean, why don't we just make $60k for our entire careers? Like you said the average family income is $53k right? We should be grateful.
 
The reason why those of us who have been through residency are rolling our eyes at you isn't because of some "I got mine, f-ck you" attitude. It's because (1) you haven't come up with a single mechanism for how or why hospitals should pay residents more other than "but I WAAAANNT IT!" and (2) you act like residents are forced to live in squalor and poverty ten to a hovel or something, which is just plain dumb. Hell I had A LOT of fun in residency, ate out a lot, lived in one of the trendiest neighborhoods in the country, saw plenty of shows, went to plenty of games, and still managed to save 8% for my retirement account. My lifestyle today isn't vastly different now than it was a year ago, though I was able to spend more on xmas gifts this year.

even though you're pretty young, you still probably paid a lot less than most of us do now for school. for the attendings that are 40+ it's not even close

I still agree with you guys that the pay isn't terrible, but at the same time a lot of the older people comparing it to their experience are misguided. If I was only paying 10-15k a year for school, on loans with way better interest rates and favorable terms I'd be even more in agreement with you. Different ballgame when you have 200k in debt at 6 % interest
 
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So if you go into FP, you have a 3 year residency. Data from 2014 shows salaries of $51k, $52k, and $54k for PGY1-3. Let's say you get a below average starting salary of $170k since you're a new attending. So by these basic numbers, in six years you would have earned about $667k pretax. Let's compare that to a PA. Taking just the average salary, of which it would likely be less when starting out, you'd make $570k pretax in six years. At 10 years with the same salaries, you'd be looking at $1.38 million for the MD and $0.95 million for the PA. 20 years? $3.05 million for the MD and $1.9 million for the PA.

So yes, even with 3 years of residency, you still make more than the PA. NPs earn on average less than a PA as well, so those comparisons are even worse.

But yeah, you worry about those 3 years of resident salaries when you're in the poor house. Nevermind that the average family income in 2014 was about $53k...

I know you like your financial discussions so come on you're killing me with these comparisons! Present value !!!!!!
 
Has the monetary value which an individual resident brings to an institution been measured/been made public?
 
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There is no good way to directly estimate it as residents don't actually bring in money directly. Studies have looked at surrogate measures or proposed blind estimates (eg theoretical studies of how much residents could bring in on terms of billing if they were allowed to bill at a % for resident work), or they have done time/work analyses as estimate. Other studies have looked at the reimbursement aspect for the hospitals. Others have looked at relative costs to the hospital for training (easier to estimate direct costs to hospital for training than indirect).

The IOM report has a number of good summaries of some of the existing work, but it is very very long

Then this ambiguity is a major factor why it's difficult for either party to estimate what residents 'should' be paid. Were I in their boat, I would try to ascertain this ASAP and use it as my main bargaining chip.
 
Um, Pathology?

Actually FM. The guy was only willing to work in a specific neighborhood of a specific city, so if he'd been flexible about the neighborhood, I'm sure he could have found a job pretty quickly.

even though you're pretty young, you still probably paid a lot less than most of us do now for school. for the attendings that are 40+ it's not even close

I still agree with you guys that the pay isn't terrible, but at the same time a lot of the older people comparing it to their experience are misguided. If I was only paying 10-15k a year for school, on loans with way better interest rates and favorable terms I'd be even more in agreement with you. Different ballgame when you have 200k in debt at 6 % interest

The bolded x10. I've talked to docs that thought repaying over 100k at a 4% interest rate was unreasonable, that sounds like a pretty great deal to me given the long term earnings of physicians. Hell, I've seen people on here who graduated 10 years ago saying that there were able to consolidate their debt to a 3% rate. I don't think that's even possible today unless you take out a home-credit loan or something along those lines.
 
There is no good way to directly estimate it as residents don't actually bring in money directly. Studies have looked at surrogate measures or proposed blind estimates (eg theoretical studies of how much residents could bring in on terms of billing if they were allowed to bill at a % for resident work), or they have done time/work analyses as estimate. Other studies have looked at the reimbursement aspect for the hospitals. Others have looked at relative costs to the hospital for training (easier to estimate direct costs to hospital for training than indirect).

The IOM report has a number of good summaries of some of the existing work, but it is very very long
The hospital also gets a boost in reputation from being an "academic center". At least it appears that way if they're willing to spend big money to advertise themselves to patients as such.
 
The bolded x10. I've talked to docs that thought repaying over 100k at a 4% interest rate was unreasonable, that sounds like a pretty great deal to me given the long term earnings of physicians. Hell, I've seen people on here who graduated 10 years ago saying that there were able to consolidate their debt to a 3% rate. I don't think that's even possible today unless you take out a home-credit loan or something along those lines.
That really changed right around 2003/2004. My in-state tuition in 2005 was 28k/year at 6.4%. Residency classmates of mine had loans in excess of 300k back in 2010.

But that's cool, keep making assumptions.
 
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That really changed right around 2003/2004. My in-state tuition in 2005 was 28k/year at 6.4%. Residency classmates of mine had loans in excess of 300k back in 2010.

But that's cool, keep making assumptions.

Yup. And OOS for me averaged 40k/year starting two years later at 6.8%. (though I was able to acquire some aid to bring the average I had to borrow down to just over 30k per year, but that still was more than I would have paid had I stayed in state.) I've been able to bring the interest rate down since through some complicated financing, but that actually increased the amount I had to pay slightly at the end of residency compared to IBR and PSLF is off the table for me.
 
Yup. And OOS for me averaged 40k/year starting two years later at 6.8%. (though I was able to acquire some aid to bring the average I had to borrow down to just over 30k per year, but that still was more than I would have paid had I stayed in state.) I've been able to bring the interest rate down since through some complicated financing, but that actually increased the amount I had to pay slightly at the end of residency compared to IBR and PSLF is off the table for me.

OOS now at a lot of places is double+ that. My comments were more directed towards people older than you though. You paid a lot, current students pay a ton, but 10 years before you, they paid pennies compared to today. and those pennies were at more favorable terms.
 
OOS now at a lot of places is double+ that. My comments were more directed towards people older than you though. You paid a lot, current students pay a ton, but 10 years before you, they paid pennies compared to today. and those pennies were at more favorable terms.

yeah, my cousin went to the same school about 6 years before me and the tuition was about 30k. It's over 50k now.

if I had a magic wish for anything regarding the economics of medical education, reigning in the cost of tuition would be a WAY bigger priority than resident stipends. Med school may very well become a rich person's game only in the near future.
 
That really changed right around 2003/2004. My in-state tuition in 2005 was 28k/year at 6.4%. Residency classmates of mine had loans in excess of 300k back in 2010.

But that's cool, keep making assumptions.

Okay, so it was 12-13 years ago, I wasn't that far off. And the point I was making was more about interest rates being less manageable and that the average med student/graduate now faces a more cumbersome financial burden than those 10-15 years ago, not specifically about you. Let's look at the numbers though. In 2003 the average debt for a student at a public school was $100k and private was $135k (see link 1 below) and interest rates on those loans were about 3.5% (see link 2). Today, the average med student graduates with somewhere around $180-190k in debt (numbers varied from 166k to 200k+ depending on the source) with interest of 5.84% for the first 40k of tuition/COA and 6.84% for the rest taken out up to total COA. Throw in the fact that subsidized loans are no longer available for graduate students, and it adds a pretty significant amount to the debt burden today.

If you read the first link, it's pretty obvious that the trend isn't new, and that grads from around 2003 had it far worse in terms of total debt than 20 years earlier. Interest rates have fluctuated, and it looks like they might be going down again, but the numbers show that 2003 was the 'sweet spot' for low interest rates. We've also lost the opportunity to take out subsidized loans, so our interest will hit us even harder even if it's at the same rate as a few years ago.

I'm not saying it was "cheap" 10 years ago at all, just trying to point out that pursuing medicine has continually become more and more financially burdensome to those pursuing it. I'd also have to agree with @WingedOx in regards to managing student debt. When it's costing 50k/year in tuition alone it makes medicine far less desirable for anyone hoping to create a financially stable future, especially if they have to take on significant debt for undergrad.

Links:

1. http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/24/2/527.full
2. http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicalrates.phtml
 
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So if you go into FP, you have a 3 year residency. Data from 2014 shows salaries of $51k, $52k, and $54k for PGY1-3. Let's say you get a below average starting salary of $170k since you're a new attending. So by these basic numbers, in six years you would have earned about $667k pretax. Let's compare that to a PA. Taking just the average salary, of which it would likely be less when starting out, you'd make $570k pretax in six years. At 10 years with the same salaries, you'd be looking at $1.38 million for the MD and $0.95 million for the PA. 20 years? $3.05 million for the MD and $1.9 million for the PA.

So yes, even with 3 years of residency, you still make more than the PA. NPs earn on average less than a PA as well, so those comparisons are even worse.

But yeah, you worry about those 3 years of resident salaries when you're in the poor house. Nevermind that the average family income in 2014 was about $53k...

I think you need to take into account opportunity cost + tuition disparity + interest accumulation into this equation. Your 20 year figures would be much closer, IMO.
 
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I'm late to this thread, so my apologies if I am backtracking.

One thing not yet mentioned is that, when people do "the math" about what a resident should be paid, they use 80 hours. 80 hours is the maximum that residents can work in a week. Although perhaps in some residencies residents work 80 hours each week, in most that's not true. In my IM program, residents have inpatient rotations where they routinely work ~70-75 hours per week (designed that way so that they do not break 80), but they also have elective and outpatient rotations where they work much less, usually 40-50 hours per week. In fact, for my PGY-3's fully half of their rotations are like this. And, when they are on electives, they add no business value to the institution -- if they were not there, the same work would get done. PA's don't get that -- they get the same job, every day.

Here is a seminal analysis from Stanford:
AThis paper has studied matching markets where firms compete by setting impersonal prices prior to matching. The firms’ inability to target their offers leads to greater profits, with the highest-quality firms benefiting the most. The implication is that wages are both reduced and compressed, with compression beyond the mild amount that occurs in all-pay competition among symmetric firms with the same expected distribution of quality.
See link for full discussion:
http://web.stanford.edu/~jdlevin/Papers/Matching.pdf

Amazing that so many here are more knowledgeable about economics than the professors at the Stanford Graduate School Of Business.

No one has commented upon this, perhaps not surprisingly since it's a very lingo heavy article that's hard to follow. And I'm not claiming to have read it completely nor understand everything in it. But if you read the initial summary of their model and findings, I think there is a concerning flaw. At the bottom of the 1st column on the second page, there is this paragraph:

With impersonal price setting followed by matching, there is a pricing equilibrium in mixed strategies. In this equilibrium, the expected surplus of the better hospital exceeds that of the lesser hospital by more than the difference in output with the superior worker. The reason is that the salary a hospital must offer to obtain in expectation its appropriately matched resident is less than what the hospital ranked just below it would have to offer to match in expectation with the same resident. This is because the higher-ranked hospital will, on average, offer higher wages than the lower-ranked hospital, and therefore the higher-ranked hospital faces less stiff competition than the lowerranked hospital.4 Therefore, the difference in the expected surplus of two adjacent hospitals reflects the maximum differential in a competitive equilibrium, plus the savings from the lower wage that the higher firm must pay relative to its near competitor to achieve its expected efficient quality worker.

OK, that's a mouthful. But what are they trying to say? They are suggesting (in their model) that better residents are "more productive" -- i.e. they do more work per unit time. Therefore, better hospitals (i.e. that have better "output" which in economic terms is more profit) want better workers, and are willing to pay a premium for them. But if the premium becomes too much (i.e. more than the expected profit of the better employer), then it's no longer worth it to them. The easiest sentence to understand is this one:
This is because the higher-ranked hospital will, on average, offer higher wages than the lower-ranked hospital, and therefore the higher-ranked hospital faces less stiff competition than the lower-ranked hospital.
These assumptions are problematic. First of all, "better" residents are not necessarily more profitable. The total number of patients any resident can care for is capped. Second, better hospitals may not be willing to pay more for better residents. They may be willing to pay less, and assume that the residents will pick them anyway because the benefit of training at a better hospital is a good investment in their future.

It's hard for me to tell if these problems make the overall analysis invalid. But the problem at the core is that they treat residency like any employment position -- you get paid to do a job. It's different then that, since where you do your residency can ultimately affect your career trajectory, so people may choose to sacrifice salary for "name". And the "multiplication game" example shows that the profits of the firms improve with better workers, which has nothing to do with residency. So, overall, I don't think this is a good model to explain how the match might affect residency salaries.

Then this ambiguity is a major factor why it's difficult for either party to estimate what residents 'should' be paid. Were I in their boat, I would try to ascertain this ASAP and use it as my main bargaining chip.

Be careful what you wish for. As I mentioned above, the value of a resident doing an elective, or their own independent research project (to help with their fellowship applications), is likely zero. And this could easily set various residents against each other. Peds is, in general, a huge money loser.
 
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I think you need to take into account opportunity cost + tuition disparity + interest accumulation into this equation. Your 20 year figures would be much closer, IMO.

I didn't take any raises into account for the MD either, which would likely happen. That would counteract your point. But hey, if you think financially being a PA or NP is better, go for it. That still doesn't change anything about resident salaries and the foolish sense of entitlement that I've seen on here that you should be paid double or more than what you are currently making...
 
I'm not saying it was "cheap" 10 years ago at all, just trying to point out that pursuing medicine has continually become more and more financially burdensome to those pursuing it. I'd also have to agree with @WingedOx in regards to managing student debt. When it's costing 50k/year in tuition alone it makes medicine far less desirable for anyone hoping to create a financially stable future, especially if they have to take on significant debt for undergrad.

Yeah, the thing is realistically med school tuition can still rise quite a bit to the point where attending income minus eventual debt payments still makes a damn good lifestyle compared to your typical job for an educated individual (especially considering the sellers market mess that professorships have become for PhDs.) I just wonder what's the threshold at which those without financial support (and I fully disclose that I had some when I describe my own situation...though a decent chunk of it was due to unforeseen circumstances) decide to look at other options due to the barriers to entry.
 
A) As mentioned several times, I know what I'll be making in a couple of years. This field does require substantial delayed gratification. If you didn't realize that or can't handle it, I'm sorry, but that's the nature of the beast. You trade off delayed gratification for a pretty damn secure future. This attitude of, I deserve to get paid more now so I can enjoy it while I'm young is, well, just plain millennial. It makes no sense. Why? See (B)

I assume you're referring to me here. There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to maximize what you can get out of any particular situation. Every successful person does this.

P.S. The "blame it on the millenials" attitude is getting old.
 
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C) Why do you think the PAs get paid as much as they do? My theory - because it's a s&*$ty job. They are basically interns for life. They aren't getting any training, outside of some basic orientation. They just show up and do intern work every day. We reorganized one of our rotations this past summer and added a bunch of new educational content/modules from the faculty. I was telling the PAs about it a little, and they were insanely jealous. One outright asked why they never get included in educational activities like that. Their job is entirely stagnant. If you asked our interns to do that for the rest of their careers with no progression, then you're damn right you'd have to pay them more. I actually know several who have gone back to medical school after 5-6 years as a PA for exactly this reason!
This may be the case in surgery, but it's certainly not the case in many other fields of medicine. I've personally seen PAs in primary care, endo, and heme/onc (to name a few) basically running the show with the attending not even on the premises most of the time. NPs can practice fully autonomously when they've accrued enough experience to feel comfortable with it, too.
 
I assume you're referring to me here. There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to maximize what you can get out of any particular situation. Every successful person does this.

P.S. The "blame it on the millenials" attitude is getting old.

ummm, I'm not sure who you're quoting there, but it wasn't me.
 
if I had a magic wish for anything regarding the economics of medical education, reigning in the cost of tuition would be a WAY bigger priority than resident stipends. Med school may very well become a rich person's game only in the near future.

I think this is the biggest issue. If monumental loans weren't a factor, I doubt people would be as fired up about salary during residency. Honestly, 50K/year isn't a bad deal if you consider that it's for an extension of training and that medical insurance is generally covered. Heck, it's a good deal more money than my family grew up on. The issue as I see it is that people have to start paying back 300K loans during residency because the financial powers that be don't view it as an extension of training and won't allow deferments or lower monthly payments. When so much money goes to loans, it's easy to be frustrated by how many hours residents work for so much financial headache.
 
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