'UW says its doctors in training want too much money'

[chipwhitley]

That's an elective. If you don't want that, do something with more clinical experience and no fluff. Not really sure how this supports your argument.

It supports his argument because that elective time isn't neccessary for our education, but we're required to pay for it anyway. Some people waste it taking months of fluff, others might do clinical work, but in the end they get the same MD degree. If someone wants to take an extra year and do electives, they can feel free to do so and pay for it. Why should I have to?

There are 3 year MD schools out there by the way, so this isn't unheard of.

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[chipwhitley]

They insist on getting the best applicants with the best scores they can because the best applicants and the average ones get paid the same amount. Plus the "best" candidates may earn the programs more money via research, which is why that matters. If it's a mediocre program with medicore funding, it doesn't matter if the best candidates come in because they won't have the money/resources to do their research. They also won't have the best attendings to teach them to be the best physicians.

The strong institutions got where they are because they hired the big fish who do ground-breaking research to come in and do their work there. The students that come out of those institutions have better resumes in part because they have access to far better resources. Are they also smarter/harder workers? Probably. What you're suggesting though is that the role of the attendings essentially doesn't matter.

I didn't say attendings don't matter. I said that programs want the best candidates they can get. If they can afford to pay more to get better candidates, I think they would. Especially programs that are full of carribean grads or DOs that want the added "prestige" of having some American MDs from top schools on their resident roster. They'd roll out the red carpet if they could.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

If you count half of 4th year, which most people spend coasting on the easiest electives they could find (one of my friends is doing 'medical cooking' for a month... really?) and all the useless lectures we get in 1st and 2nd year from PhDs who just want to prop up their own research, and add that to all the fluff, you'll get more than a year that you could easily shave off. Let's not forget that most of 3rd year is glorified shadowing (at least at my school). Eliminate all of that and you wouldn't change the quality of the education at all.

It sounds more like a problem with your school than a systemic problem.

 

[chipwhitley]

It sounds more like a problem with your school than a systemic problem.

Based on what I've heard from friends at other schools, it's very similar. I'd be interested to hear if other med students on here have had the same experience or not.

 

[Stagg737]

I didn't say attendings don't matter. I said that programs want the best candidates they can get. If they can afford to pay more to get better candidates, I think they would. Especially programs that are full of carribean grads or DOs that want the added "prestige" of having some American MDs from top schools on their resident roster. They'd roll out the red carpet if they could.

The base argument you're making is that bringing in 'better' resident applicants by paying them more will grossly improve crappy programs, which I don't agree with, but that's beside the point. If you want to allow residencies to pay residents whatever, then it's a business plan that the government would not provide funding for. Without that funding, do you really think any program, especially the weak ones which are more financially strapped, are actually going to be offering residents more money, or do you think the most prestigious ones that people would kill to get into would decrease their pay because they know people will flock to them regardless?

 

[Slack3r]

While that's certainly possible, that hasn't been the result in the other industries that do things the free market way (i.e. all of them). Any engineer would kill to have Google or Apple on their resume, its a golden ticket in the tech industry to have that kind of experience. However the top firms don't charge the junior engineers for the experience, they actually pay way above the market average. Ditto accountants, lawyers, business majors, finance guys, and midlevels. Top firms pay top candidates more, even while they're giving them the kind of top tier experience that builds their resumes. Top firms always care more about getting better talent than the competition more than they care about saving a few bucks by suppressing wages.

What you're forgetting is that medicine does not at all represent a free market. Our profession is highly regulated, with significant barriers to entry, namely, the requirement for GME training to ever practice medicine.

There really is NO realistic comparison to engineering.

 

[Oh_Gee]

ok so you factor that all in and they end up getting paid 18 dollars effectively an hour or something similar. is that enough? I know undergrad interns who make double that. UNDERGRAD INTERNS

Computer science though

 

[Oh_Gee]

You know Undergrad interns that are making $36 an hour? Please enlighten me on what interns receive this amount of money? I have never heard of that before. That is the equivalent of a 75,000/year salary which very few people make.

friends of friends of mine who are in comp sci make $30/hour as undergrad interns (AND THEY ALSO GET OVERTIME)

 

[space3223]

I am an MS4 in one of the most expensive cities in the US (Manhattan). I haven't been following this issue too closely but i am really surprised that no one has suggested at least one sort-of obvious possible solution (as far as I know anyway). My hospital (and nearly every hospital in Manhattan) offers subsidized housing (Ok, according to the IM and other residents here its not that great of a deal). It seems like, at least on paper, one possible decent solution would be for UW to build subsidized housing near the hospital (I grew up less than 5 miles from UW so I know there is at least SOME space on that large campus near the hospital). Residents could walk to work every day and not have to pay for a car/insurance/parking for three + years. The UW might even figure out (like programs here in NYC...) that they can pay residents even LESS if they offer housing...ok, I admit this solution isn't totally perfect...

The idea of having to do residency somewhere that would require me to buy a car, pay for insurance, gas and parking and STILL not really be able to afford an apartment is very unappealing. Granted, medical training in NYC often leaves A LOT to be desired, but at least for most programs, you don't have to also pay for a car. (FYI - housing in many expensive urban areas in the US PLUS a car and car insurance plus paying for parking every day is often about as much as living here and taking the subway or riding a bike to work)...

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Based on what I've heard from friends at other schools, it's very similar. I'd be interested to hear if other med students on here have had the same experience or not.

Occasionally. 3/4 of the time i see patients myself, present, revisit, and write the note. Around 1/5-1/4 of rotations we write the orders as well, although I'd say that part has marginal educational value.

In my experience if you aren't assertive (or rarely, competent) then you'll end up with much more shadowing.

I would also suggest va sites if you really want autonomy.

 

[maxxor]

My hospital (and nearly every hospital in Manhattan) offers subsidized housing

oh how I wish the Boston hospitals would do this...

 

[psychMDhopefully]

I feel like this is nuts. I get being a resident will suck. BUT THAT'S WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR. If UW had said they were doing one thing and then did another, I'd feel for the residents. But we all knew Med school would be hard. We all new residency would be hard. We all new we'd be poor for a long time. Now that it's happening people want to complain about it? That's silly to me. Buckle down and get it done. Residency and fellowship can only last so long.

1. Bumping this because a girl I went to HS with just got a job as a new RN, starting salary 60k. Residents are underpaid, just because they have always been underpaid doesn't mean they always should be. Why do people complain about how much doctors get paid after 12 years of school, when nurses start making a lot of money after taking a couple years of community college classes?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

1. Bumping this because a girl I went to HS with just got a job as a new RN, starting salary 60k. Residents are underpaid, just because they have always been underpaid doesn't mean they always should be. Why do people complain about how much doctors get paid after 12 years of school, when nurses start making a lot of money after taking a couple years of community college classes?

Starting nurses in my area get around 35-40k, thus residents are obviously overpaid.

 

[WingedOx]

1. Bumping this because a girl I went to HS with just got a job as a new RN, starting salary 60k. Residents are underpaid, just because they have always been underpaid doesn't mean they always should be. Why do people complain about how much doctors get paid after 12 years of school, when nurses start making a lot of money after taking a couple years of community college classes?

So you bumped a thread to state a point that's already been refuted multiple times already in the same thread?

 

[badasshairday]

Dilute the brand? Didn't know we were a "brand". I think we've already done enough diluting in the public's eyes by opening up so many shady offshore med schools that will take pretty much anybody.

Besides, the public isn't up in arms about the NP/PA thing, so why do you think they even care about our "brand"?

Agreed 100%.

 

[cyanide12345678]

You know Undergrad interns that are making $36 an hour? Please enlighten me on what interns receive this amount of money? I have never heard of that before. That is the equivalent of a 75,000/year salary which very few people make.

As well as every engineering intern.