USyd vs. Melbourne

[NazTNaz]

Hey guys, just wondering if anyone wants to weigh in on the pros and cons of the medical programs at USyd & UMEL... We all know that they are both very well respected, high-ranking institutions, but if you had to make a choice, which would you pick and why?

Right now I'm leaning towards USyd mainly because I already have a firm offer of admission from them, and also because they have affiliated schools in North America (Cornell, Columbia, McMaster). It would be nice to do at least one rotation a bit closer to home... Also, the fact that Melbourne's program is BRAND NEW kind of worries me... not sure if I want to stick it out to be a guinea pig. Thoughts?

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[rayjay]

$60,000 versus $57,000 - I guess that is pretty close
MD vs MBBS - if you are naive enough to fall into that marketing trap
Melbourne vs Sydney as a city - I've read that cost of living in Sydney is quite expensive but I'm not really sure how well Melbourne stacks up to that
New program - as you mentioned a brand new program, although it seems that the only difference to this is that they have stopped accepting Gr12 students into the program and made it exclusively graduate entry...I could be mistaken.

I would talk to Shan (he goes to Sydney). I have no come across anyone from Melbourne yet on these forums and I doubt you're likely to find a lot of people who have started the new class...just because it is new, not because there aren't any.

Ps. Where did you get the info about Sydney being affiliated with Columbia, Mac, etc?

 

[rayjay]

Also, if you wouldn't mind; I started an accepted/reject/waitlisted thread for Oz schools since it seems like every other MD/DO school has a thread for that in the allopathic forums.

If you wouldn't mind sharing your stats with other SDNers, especially since you have gotten an acceptance. Here's the link

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=747521

 

[keepcalmcarryon]

Here's a link to the USyd website that details which schools are options for international elective placements.

http://sydney.edu.au/medicine/future-students/medical-program/electives/exchange.php

 

[rayjay]

awesome! thanks for that. I checked the UQ electives and they look pretty good too, although not as much in the US as I thought. A decent amount in Canada, and in the provinces I would want to do them at too (AB, BC, ON).

Anyone know where I can find similar information on Flinders and Melbourne? Flinders has links but they are dated 2007 and when you click on them you go to a page with an error. Melbourne, I just couldn't find anything.

Do most students try and maximize their electives in the country they want to practice in? Do they do any electives in Oz?

 

[NazTNaz]

New program - as you mentioned a brand new program, although it seems that the only difference to this is that they have stopped accepting Gr12 students into the program and made it exclusively graduate entry...I could be mistaken.

I set up a meeting with Dr. Hawethorne (Associate Dean International) when she was in Toronto, and the details she offered on the program at Melbourne (not online) sounded pretty good. First off, it is the first master's level medical degree in Australia (all other degrees - including those in North America - are considered undergraduate degrees)... Don't know if it being a "master's level course" actually means anything, but I thought it was interesting... The academic years are slightly longer (less summer break) and all the coursework is done in the first year, but there are 3 years of clinical training (as opposed to the usual 2 years). I mean, having all your coursework in ONE year would be VERY intense, but 3 years of clinical training sounds intriguing. Especially if you are trying to make it back to North America (maybe a way to distinguish yourself from other IMGs)... The course is taught using PBL, so you also get patient contact starting day 1 (like USyd and UQ). I didn't think to ask her about affiliated schools in North America, but so far I haven't come across any information which would suggest that they do have such connections (a down side).

Either way... I was just asking out of curiosity... The program at Sydney seems great, and from what I've read there have not been any complaints... Plus, Sydney only gave me about 10 days to accept their offer so there is no more debate for me. I'm heading to Sydney come January!

RayJay - I added my application details with regards to admissions to your other thread.

 

[rayjay]

congrats on your acceptance! How exciting for you!!

I sat with Dr. Hawethorne as well when she visited my school. I was mainly interested to hear what changes were made since I had met her some years previously with regards to Melb's old program (although when I met her they were beginning the transition to the new one).

It all seems great, yeah but I personally can't believe the hike in tuition. I think this puts melbourne at the highest tuition fee for internationals in the country...ridiculous (I think UQ-Oschner might be more because of the extra fee?).

Hopefully I get in somewhere next year.....I've pretty much given up hope in the Canadian schools. I'm applying because somewhere deep inside me there is a small (albeit dying) voice that tells me to.

 

[NazTNaz]

Thanks RayJay. I can't wait to finish up and move!

$60,000 versus $57,000 - I guess that is pretty close

The tuition for USyd is actually AUD$~59,500, so it is just as expensive as Melbourne. If you add the overseas student health coverage (OSHC) which is approximately AUD$1,500, it totals over AUD$60,000.

The problem with Canada is that there are WAY too many applicants for a very small number of seats. There are only about 10-12 medical schools across the country, with about 4,500 people applying to each school... This means that some candidates who have GPAs of 3.6+/4.0 aren't even getting interviews (I know of a handful). It is a crap-chute. Hearing other people's stories really makes you wonder what it is that they are looking for in the applications! Going from getting 4+ interviews, to not one the next year... That's why I stayed well clear of the Canadian schools.

 

[KCShaw]

I lived in Melbourne for a year before moving to Sydney for the USyd medical program. Don't know anything about the new Melbourne program, and the USyd program has evolved a lot since I was there (I was one of the earlier intakes after they went from a 6 year to 4 year program). It used to be that if you filled out the proper paperwork and got authorization, which a lot of people did, you could spend limited (up to 3 months?) elective time anywhere overseas that accepted you. And foreign students looking to return overseas were allowed to do (again, with proper pre-authorization) a rotation (such as psych, pediatric, etc) overseas. Most of the receiving institutions did not charge extra for you to do an elective there, or even a graded clinical rotation in some cases, depending on how it was set up and with who.

As for the cities, both were relatively expensive for Australia, Sydney a little moreso; unfortunately the exchange rate from US dollars is not nearly as favorable as it was back then. Melbourne fancies itself a little more upscale artsy, and Sydney a little more international. There's a long history of city rivalry (try an internet search), but basically both are big cities with a lot going on in terms of art/culture, sports, tourism, etc., and Sydney with the more famous landmarks.

For what it's worth, I enjoyed my time in Melbourne -and- thoroughly enjoyed training in Sydney.

 

[jaketheory]

First off, it is the first master's level medical degree in Australia (all other degrees - including those in North America - are considered undergraduate degrees)...

this is not accurate. a medical degree is undergraduate training regardless of the degree that is awarded. MBBS, MD, either way, its undergrad. the difference is name of the degree and whether or not the degree builds upon prior knowledge. none of the previous grad-entry medical courses in Aus built upon prior knowledge, ie. they had no prerquisite coursework. Generally, with a few exceptions, a postgraduate degree builds upon an undergraduate foundation of knowledge. generally you cannot major in one field and then do a postgrad degree in another field if you have not studied that field at all at the undergrad level. this is where the new MD course differs. it has prereqs and thus builds upons some undergrad learning. It also requires a research component. for these reasons they felt it was reasonable to award a postgrad degree. they call it masters level because there are no real doctoral level coursework degrees in Australia. there are numerous other professional doctorates in Australia, but they all are regarded as masters level. the only thing considered exclusively doctoral level is a research degree, PhD, etc. . . This is not unlike the US. In the US, a Phd requires both coursework and a thesis, but the coursework is the same level as those completing masters. Thus they are the same level. A medical degree, by nature of being an undergrad degree, must be a coursewok degree, and thus cannot be exclusively doctoral level. it can however, award a doctoral degree. postgrad medical education is specialty/residency training.

 

[KCShaw]

This confusion is part of why the University of Sydney changed its description from GMP (Graduate Medical Program) to simply USydMP (dropped the "graduate" title). Apparently they initially wanted to highlight the transition from the old 6 year program regularly accepting recent high school graduates, to the newer 4 year program requiring (mostly) a previous undergraduate degree to be accepted. To my knowledge the degree conferred, however, was always MBBS.

This concept doesn't appear to be any different from that advertised by the University of Melbourne, except that they're calling it an MD degree, with acceptance based on requiring a previous undergraduate degree. There doesn't seem to be anything particularly different about their requirements as compared to USyd, most U.S. based schools, or essentially any other non-6-year medical program, so it's not clear to me how/why they're calling it unique. I suppose I can see why one might call it master's level, but again...that doesn't seem to be any different from any other 4-year program with previous undergrad requirements / basic science testing-in.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

They are both great programs, my feeling is USyd is better but I maybe biased . USyd has gone through a lot of changes over the years, the basic science component is a lot more than in the past.

I am from North America originally but migrated to Australia and applied to USyd through the local applicant pool. I can tell you that if you want to go back to States you will not have much of a problem unless you are aiming for a competitive specialty but to be honest the North American system is terrible, many people say doctors earn more in NA for example, that is false and the health reform bill guarantees that doctor incomes, especially those for specialists are going to fall. Due to the strong Aussie, primary care doctors in Australia do a lot better than their North American counterparts and work more humane hours, also you do not have to deal with HMOs and all that other nonsense. And the quality of life in Australia is the best, and I lived all over the States when I was there, Seattle, San Francisco, New York, Boston, etc, none of them compare to what you get down under.

 

[KCShaw]

Being a USyd grad myself, I'm certainly biased -- but also perhaps harder on them than I otherwise would be. I'm not convinced the shift back to more basic sciences was motivated by anything other than university politics. The first few rounds of graduates of the originally renovated program, when it first moved from 6 year to 4 year and developed a stronger focus on clinical teaching at the expense of some basic sciences, seem to have ultimately integrated into real-life practice as well as those from any other program. Granted, that can be a difficult assessment to make, as those who drop out of medicine may not show up on surveys while "success" as a physician is difficult to quantify.

Anyway, kinda drifting off topic. I agree Oz in general was a great place to live, and I probably would have stayed had the training in my particular specialty & subspecialty (pathology & forensic pathology) been more well established (as most other specialty training schemes are). But, frankly, not enough people kill one another down under. And I hadn't obtained residency status (at the time difficult to obtain as a doctor, though that changed the following year), so there was a certain amount of uncertainty as to when I might be forced to take an unpalatable job or leave the country.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

The fact that there is little need for pathologists in Australia is a great sign for me. I am happy with the fact that I will raise my family in Australia. Frankly speaking, seeing the way the US is these days, I am certain my children will not have the same kind of life that I had. It was really difficult for me to accept this view of America, the first year I was in Australia it was a tough transition, I moved to Oz in 2004, and usually traveled back to the States once year, after spending my first year in Australia, America just did not look the same anymore. I am from Michigan, and after experiencing the Sydney life, I just could not go back home. I still go back to visit at least once a year, and with the leave time you get working in Australia its very easy to do so. Even during school the university gave us some generous time off in between years.

Its not incredibly hard to stay in Australia as some people would say but as I said that many North Americans who get into training programs here usually leave the moment they match in the US or Canada and hence the hospitals are hesitant to guarantee training to internationals but its still very doable and despite the increase in students the authorities are increasing training spots though in the future you might not be able to get it in the most desirable place. One of my classmates wound up marrying a local student in my class for example. Though this will not work for everyone. I myself married an Australian after I got my PR.

I think to anyone who starts school in Australia as an international, it will be an interesting time in your life, it will be the best and the worst moment of your life and will be a challenging time and I am sure you will enjoy the adventure.

 

[jaketheory]

This concept doesn't appear to be any different from that advertised by the University of Melbourne, except that they're calling it an MD degree, with acceptance based on requiring a previous undergraduate degree. There doesn't seem to be anything particularly different about their requirements as compared to USyd, most U.S. based schools, or essentially any other non-6-year medical program, so it's not clear to me how/why they're calling it unique. I suppose I can see why one might call it master's level, but again...that doesn't seem to be any different from any other 4-year program with previous undergrad requirements / basic science testing-in.

i just explained above that the new Melbourne course is being called masters level, and thus conferring a postgraduate degree, because it builds upon prior knowledge. it has anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry as prereqs. None of the other aussie grad entry med courses have this. This is like the US MD, which has numerous prereqs. There is a reason Melbourne moved to the same degree as conferred in the US, because they have this in common.

the first medical degrees conferred in the US were bachelor degrees as well. there was a historical transition, first marked by tradition (many of the med schools were established by physicians trained in Scotland, the universities of which at the time conferred the MD). later the MD was solidified as a trend towards teaching medicine upon prior knowledge, with an adult learning focus, and with more rigor than traditional undergrad study. Uni Melbourne and Uni Western Australia are doing the same thing, and I wouldnt be surprised if in 50 or 100 years all Aussie grad entry med schools were doing it.

 

[Nick17]

If the new Melbourne course is a master's it could have effects on the type of Visa you get as well. As most medical programs in Australia are considered undergraduate they fall under a different Visa subclass than master's programs. With the undergraduate Visa you are only allowed to work 20 hours a week, while that limitation isn't applied to graduate degrees. This also applies if you have a partner and want to bring them over on your Visa, meaning your partner could work full time in Melbourne if it actually is a master's program, which he/she would not be able to do if you were in any other Australian medical school.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

later the MD was solidified as a trend towards teaching medicine upon prior knowledge, with an adult learning focus, and with more rigor than traditional undergrad study. Uni Melbourne and Uni Western Australia are doing the same thing, and I wouldnt be surprised if in 50 or 100 years all Aussie grad entry med schools were doing it.

are you suggesting that the Melbourne MD is more "rigorous" than the Melbourne MBBS (or any other Aussie MBBS program?)? I find that hard to believe. I think this is more hype than anything else.

Actually ... in Canada they call their medical degrees "doctorates" (MD or MDCM) and even they say that they are classified in Canada as "undergraduate degrees". In 3 or more medical schools in Canada the MD degree is only 3 years long after 2-3 years of premed courses. You think this is more rigorous than both a 6 year MBBS or a 4 year graduate entry MBBS?

Mate its just a title.. MBBS = MD.. its all the same thing. At the end of the day they are both just equivalent medical degrees. Just because your university provided a degree with the word "doctor" in it.. doesn't mean you actually know anything that a "bachelor" of medicine graduate does. You're both equal first year graduate doctors.

Newcastle's medical school grants the "BMed" degree instead of the MBBS.. Just because their degree is a Bachelor of Medicine instead of a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery doesn't mean they don't learn about Surgery.

Its just a way for Universities to make more money by calling their graduate program allows them to charge more for tuition... and by calling it a "doctorate" simply makes it more marketable... to eager young kids who want to feel like their getting the most for their money. When in reality you're not getting anything more. BTW: MBBS grads (if working in North America) are allowed to use the MD title if they wish.. since they are recognized as equivalent degrees.

(MD = MBBS = BMed = MBChB = BMBS = MDCM, etc, etc)

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

If the new Melbourne course is a master's it could have effects on the type of Visa you get as well. As most medical programs in Australia are considered undergraduate they fall under a different Visa subclass than master's programs. With the undergraduate Visa you are only allowed to work 20 hours a week, while that limitation isn't applied to graduate degrees. This also applies if you have a partner and want to bring them over on your Visa, meaning your partner could work full time in Melbourne if it actually is a master's program, which he/she would not be able to do if you were in any other Australian medical school.

Good point.

 

[jaketheory]

are you suggesting that the Melbourne MD is more "rigorous" than the Melbourne MBBS (or any other Aussie MBBS program?)? I find that hard to believe.

no where did i ever say that.

Actually ... in Canada they call their medical degrees "doctorates" (MD or MDCM) and even they say that they are classified in Canada as "undergraduate degrees". In 3 or more medical schools in Canada the MD degree is only 3 years long after 2-3 years of premed courses. You think this is more rigorous than both a 6 year MBBS or a 4 year graduate entry MBBS?

Mate its just a title.. MBBS = MD.. its all the same thing. At the end of the day they are both just equivalent medical degrees. Just because your university provided a degree with the word "doctor" in it.. doesn't mean you actually know anything that a "bachelor" of medicine graduate does. You're both equal first year graduate doctors.

not sure why you are writing this. if you read what i posted, i stated a medical degree education, no matter how you slice it, be it mbbs or md, is all undergraduate medical education, regardless of the level of the degree actually conferred. but there is a rational for them to support that its masters level rather than bachelors.

and the canadian 3 year schools have no summer breaks. they dont cram 4 years into 3 normal years. and they also would inherently not cover as much as a 4 year program, just as Duke's 1 year basic science curriculum doesnt cover as much as traditional school's 2 year basic science curriculum.

never was i arguing that mebournes new course was someohow categorically superior than others.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

never was i arguing that mebournes new course was someohow categorically superior than others.

Sorry.. I just read that thing you posted about the rational for the creation of the MD title.. and transition to "professional doctorates" from professional bachelor degrees was because:

"trend towards teaching medicine upon prior knowledge, with an adult learning focus, and with more rigor than traditional undergrad study" - jaketheory

maybe I misconstrued your meaning.. sorry.

 

[jaketheory]

If the new Melbourne course is a master's it could have effects on the type of Visa you get as well. As most medical programs in Australia are considered undergraduate they fall under a different Visa subclass than master's programs. With the undergraduate Visa you are only allowed to work 20 hours a week, while that limitation isn't applied to graduate degrees. This also applies if you have a partner and want to bring them over on your Visa, meaning your partner could work full time in Melbourne if it actually is a master's program, which he/she would not be able to do if you were in any other Australian medical school.

not really. it is clearly not a masters course because it confers a doctorate. as noted above, it is still undergraduate medical education. the immigration people would make exceptions just as CentreLink and the department of education made new rules to deal with the grad-entry MBBS.

for those that don't know, centrelink is the office that deals with social security/welfare payments. in aus, full-time LOCAL students can get welfare, "centrelink", payments to help with living expenses, but only certain courses are eligible. all undergraduate degrees are eligible. however, in general, with some exceptions, postgraduate coursework degrees are not eligible. also, doing a subsequent undergrad degree after completing a previous eligible undergrad degree makes you ineligible. this would make grad-entry MBBS students ineligible for centrelink payments. they rewrote the rule books so that grad entry mbbs students could get centrelink payments based on the fact that the grad entry mbbs courses require a previous degree.

likewise, the department of education subsidizes all local undergraduate places at public universities, including MBBS. with some exceptions it does not subsidize postgraduate places. Uni of Melbourne had to petition the department of education to enable them to offer subsidized places for the new postgrad MD course. in fact legislation eradicated full fee undergrad places a few years ago which forced all public uni's to withdraw admitting new local full fee grad-entry MBBS places. however, most postgrad coursework degrees are full-fees. because the new UniMelb MD is a postgrad course, it can offer full fee places whilst no other public Australian university can offer full fee medical student places (to locals) because no other offers a postgrad med degree (emphasis is on degree; as stated previously, it is still undergrad medical education as specialty training is postgrad medical education).

 

[jaketheory]

Sorry.. I just read that thing you posted about the rational for the creation of the MD title.. and transition to "professional doctorates" from professional bachelor degrees was because:

"trend towards teaching medicine upon prior knowledge, with an adult learning focus, and with more rigor than traditional undergrad study" - jaketheory

maybe I misconstrued your meaning.. sorry.

no worries mate.

 

[jaketheory]

BTW: MBBS grads (if working in North America) are allowed to use the MD title if they wish.. since they are recognized as equivalent degrees.

(MD = MBBS = BMed = MBChB = BMBS = MDCM, etc, etc)

i'm not trying to argue here but i think it is worthwile to ask who recognizes the MBBS as equivalent to the MD.

yes, the licensing authorities consider it equivalent; however, state medical boards, which issue licenses, don't do anything to evaluate overseas medical schools. no overseas medical school is accredited by the LCME. The department of education does have a foreign schools division that evaluates overseas medical schools. they evaluate them to determine their eligibility to distribute US federal loans. this came about when a handful of start-up caribean med school dissolved, maybe 20 years back, and left a lot of US citizens with enormous US federal student loan debt and no way to repay it. one of the main criteria in evaluating foreign med school is the accreditation standards. the department of education's foreign school's division emphasizes they will not cite foreign state's have equivalent accreditation standards for medical schools, rather that they note whether or not state's have accrediation standards SIMILAR to those of the LCME.

yes, an overseas MBBS can get you a US medical license and allow you to call yourself MD. the is more because the MBBS is that country's equivalent to the MD; i.e. they don't offer the MD to med grads, they offer the MBBS. but i feel saying completing an Aus MBBS is equivalent to completing a US MD is misleading. this is clearly not true evidence by the fact that N.American students at Aus schools have to devote more time to self directed study for the USMLE than US students. further, US schools are not all equivalent.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

i'm not trying to argue here but i think it is worthwile to ask who recognizes the MBBS as equivalent to the MD.

yes, the licensing authorities consider it equivalent; however, state medical boards, which issue licenses, don't do anything to evaluate overseas medical schools. no overseas medical school is accredited by the LCME. The department of education does have a foreign schools division that evaluates overseas medical schools. they evaluate them to determine their eligibility to distribute US federal loans. this came about when a handful of start-up caribean med school dissolved, maybe 20 years back, and left a lot of US citizens with enormous US federal student loan debt and no way to repay it. one of the main criteria in evaluating foreign med school is the accreditation standards. the department of education's foreign school's division emphasizes they will not cite foreign state's have equivalent accreditation standards for medical schools, rather that they note whether or not state's have accrediation standards SIMILAR to those of the LCME.

yes, an overseas MBBS can get you a US medical license and allow you to call yourself MD. the is more because the MBBS is that country's equivalent to the MD; i.e. they don't offer the MD to med grads, they offer the MBBS. but i feel saying completing an Aus MBBS is equivalent to completing a US MD is misleading. this is clearly not true evidence by the fact that N.American students at Aus schools have to devote more time to self directed study for the USMLE than US students. further, US schools are not all equivalent.

1. Who made the US the gold standard by which to compare medical education.

2. Title of degree means nothing.. (100% arbitrary) Some countries DO offer the MD degree for 6-year undergraduate programs no different to say UNSW's program. (ex. Korea, Sweden, France, Germany, Poland, etc). You also have programs like sydney's which is 4-years and truely requires a previous degree and not just 90 hours of pre reqs (like the states).. Yet they still call it an MBBS.

3. You think just because medical students have to "devote more time to study" for an exam makes their training of lower level? I'd like to see how many final year US medical students could pass the AMC exams without devoting a little extra time to study.

Im sure US medical grads have to put in extra study time to pass the Canadian boards.. And Canada's med schools are LCME accredited.

Different country = different exam structure = more study

 

[jaketheory]

1. Who made the US the gold standard by which to compare medical education.

2. Title means nothing.. Some countries DO offer the MD degree for 6year undergraduate programs no different to say UNSW's program. (ex. Korea, Sweden, Germany, Poland, etc). You also have programs like sydney's which is 4 years and truely requires a previous degree and not just 90 hours of pre reqs (like the states).. Yet they still call it an MBBS.

3. You think just because medical students have to "devote more time to study" for an exam makes their training of lower level? I'd like to see how many final year US medical students could pass the AMC exams without devoting a little extra time to study.

Im sure US medical grads have to put in extra study time to pass the Canadian boards.. And Canada's med schools are LCME accredited.

Different country = different exam structure = more study

i will mention again, never did i say or imply that one was better than the other.

and who are you to tell me what i think? not sure what crawled up your cornhole.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

i will mention again, never did i say or imply that one was better than the other.

and who are you to tell me what i think? not sure what crawled up your cornhole.

No need to get angry. I'm not angry.. I'm simply trying to have a constructive discussion.

I'm not trying to tell you what you think. I'm simply taking what you're saying at face value. For example.. the statement below:

"i feel saying completing an Aus MBBS is equivalent to completing a US MD is misleading. this is clearly not true evidence by the fact that N.American students at Aus schools have to devote more time to self directed study for the USMLE than US students." - jaketheory

... you are implying that.. because Aussie medical students have to set aside extra time to study for an exam created by another country that their medical education is not good enough or is lacking something. (at least that is the way I interpreted your statement)

I don't see this as a valid way to evaluate medical education. Btw.. I'm sure Melbourne MD students will have to set aside just as much extra time to study for the USMLE as the Melbourne MBBS students. .. same same. Its an exam created by another country to evaluate its own students. I was simply pointing out that it would be the exact same situation should a US medical student want to do their residency training in Australia or Canada. (ie. extra time to study for a different country's medical licensing exams).

 

[jaketheory]

You think just because medical students have to . . .

I'm not trying to tell you what you think . . .

no, you did not try to tell me what i think.

... you are implying that.. because Aussie medical students have to set aside extra time to study for an exam created by another country that their medical education is not good enough or is lacking something. (at least that is the way I interpreted your statement)

well you can interpret things however you want. i was saying this makes them not equivalent, not that one was better than the other.

I'm sure Melbourne MD students will have to set aside just as much extra time to study for the USMLE as the Melbourne MBBS students. .. same same. Its an exam created by another country to evaluate its own students. I was simply pointing out that it would be the exact same situation should a US medical student want to do their residency training in Australia or Canada. (ie. extra time to study for a different country's medical licensing exams).

i would say that Melbourne MD students will find they need even more time to study for USMLE than students at other aussie schools simply because their non-USMLE focused basic science is crammed into only 9 months.

i dont know if i would agree out right that a US med grad doing residency in Australia would be in the exact same situation. A US grad would have to take the AMC MCQ and AMC clinical exam. that is one exam less than the USMLE exams someone going the other way would have to sit. further, the usmle is a score which residencies use in evaluating applicants. the AMC is simply to determine if your knowledge is considered at the level of an Aussie grad. it's pass/fail as far as i know - no postgrad training program is going to rank you based on your score. they probably will never see it. given US schools have more intense basic science and more responsibility in the clinic, i'd say it is probably easier for a US grad to prepare for that exam than an Aus grad preparing for USMLE.

but to be clear, i'm just saying its different, not that one is better than the other.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

i would say that Melbourne MD students will find they need even more time to study for USMLE than students at other aussie schools simply because their non-USMLE focused basic science is crammed into only 9 months.

i dont know if i would agree out right that a US med grad doing residency in Australia would be in the exact same situation. A US grad would have to take the AMC MCQ and AMC clinical exam. that is one exam less than the USMLE exams someone going the other way would have to sit. further, the usmle is a score which residencies use in evaluating applicants. the AMC is simply to determine if your knowledge is considered at the level of an Aussie grad. it's pass/fail as far as i know - no postgrad training program is going to rank you based on your score. they probably will never see it. given US schools have more intense basic science and more responsibility in the clinic, i'd say it is probably easier for a US grad to prepare for that exam than an Aus grad preparing for USMLE.

but to be clear, i'm just saying its different, not that one is better than the other.

fair nuff

 

[teamplayer7]

Melbourne DDS is the best program by far for a canadian with a familly for one simple reason. DDS gives you different VISA class, I can work full-time while my wife goes to school. There is not one other prorgam that enables this + DDS vs Bachelor simply looks much better for appearence to most North Americans no matter how arbituary it may be.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Melbourne DDS is the best program by far for a canadian with a familly for one simple reason. DDS gives you different VISA class, I can work full-time while my wife goes to school. There is not one other prorgam that enables this + DDS vs Bachelor simply looks much better for appearence to most North Americans no matter how arbituary it may be.

Sydney was the first dental school in Australia to become a 4 year graduate dental program. Sydney and Melb are the only 2 (at the moment) which require a previous bachelors degree. I presume that Sydney's program (since its also grad entry) would provide you with the exact same student visa.

As for DDS vs BDS/BDent, etc... its a mute point. Their all accredited dental schools and the degrees are equivalent. Its no different than DMD vs DDS in the States and Canada.

Since they are considered the same.. I'm pretty sure you can use the DDS/DMD title if you really wish to when working in the states or Canada.

Here is a link to a dentist in Seattle USA who is a Sydney dental graduate (BDent): http://www.gigharborsmiles.com/html/meet.html

He uses DDS instead of BDent just for marketing purposes of his practice because I suppose the DDS is more familiar to his local patients. The Washington State dental board doesn't have a problem with this since they are considered equivalent degrees. Just like a Sydney MBBS (medical) graduate using the MD title while working in the USA.

 

[teamplayer7]

Sorry but you are assumption is not correct. USYD was not even an option because of this, just ask immigration, its black and white to them. The Australian government and CRICOS classifies USYD Dental program as an Undergraduate Program while they classify Melbourne DDS as a Masters program.....there own government has put a label on the program as esstially being a higher education and therfore giving an upgraded VISA. Only Melbournes Dental program gives this FULL WORKING VISA making it far superior to any school outside Canada for a Canadian. I wouldnt be able to work in the US if my wife went to school there. If she went to USYD i would get 20hrs of week of working rights which would not give me the opportunity to make my $200K because nobody is going to give my that kind of coin for 20hrs a week.

The point you made about just saying you have a DDS is very good and nice to know and should help with practicing in NA for marketing and appearence. I just hope someone doesn`t sue you for misleading them. Do you realize how many people sue dental offices in the US and even in Canada.

 

[teamplayer7]

USYD has lost a lot of credibility in my eyes this year. They let people in according to GPA . People with Music degrees and no science backgrounds are chosen over biochem and science majors with slightly less GPAs. Yes Melbourne was like this as well.....but now they are not. This new program is a big leap in credibility. I don`t know about you, but I want to learn with people that are not taking basic biology for the first time. In the end USYD and MELBOURNE = Dentist in Canada and Australia. Choose according to whats important to you. Most people would be excited to have graduated from either

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Sorry but you are assumption is not correct. USYD was not even an option because of this, just ask immigration, its black and white to them. The Australian government and CRICOS classifies USYD Dental program as an Undergraduate Program while they classify Melbourne DDS as a Masters program.....there own government has put a label on the program as esstially being a higher education and therfore giving an upgraded VISA. Only Melbournes Dental program gives this FULL WORKING VISA making it far superior to any school outside Canada for a Canadian. I wouldnt be able to work in the US if my wife went to school there. If she went to USYD i would get 20hrs of week of working rights which would not give me the opportunity to make my $200K because nobody is going to give my that kind of coin for 20hrs a week.

The point you made about just saying you have a DDS is very good and nice to know and should help with practicing in NA for marketing and appearence. I just hope someone doesn`t sue you for misleading them. Do you realize how many people sue dental offices in the US and even in Canada.

USYD has lost a lot of credibility in my eyes this year. They let people in according to GPA only. People with Music degrees and no science backgrounds are chosen over biochem and science majors with slightly less GPAs. Yes Melbourne was like this as well.....but now they are not. This new program is a big leap in credibility. I don`t know about you, but I want to learn with people that are not taking basic biology for the first time. In the end USYD and MELBOURNE = Dentist in Canada and Australia. Choose according to whats important to you. Most people would be excited to have graduated from either

I myself am a Syd dental graduate. I had classmates who were Canadian. Many of whom did work 20 hours/wk. The initial visa they received did not allow this.. but all it required was for them to make a visit to the international student office and complete an application for a work allowance for their visa and 2 weeks later they received their work student visa.

Most dental students don't have much time to work outside of Uni anyways.

Sue me.. eh? Wow.. you must be American. Mate.. I'm just an Aussie dentist trying to tell you what I know from experience. No need to get on the offensive.

Can you show me where they let people in on GPA only? Sydney dental requires a GAMSAT score of over 62.. (or for internationals CDAT or DAT). ... and that is just to be eligible for an interview. After you are given an interview they throw all your scores out the window and then base their selection completely on the interview score. You are interviewed usually by multiple people 8+ usually. When I went though they also required a manual skills exam (ortho wire bending, wax carving, etc) on top of all that. (so not sure where you're getting your info from). You should speak to Ann in the admissions office for more details I think.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

USYD has lost a lot of credibility in my eyes this year. They let people in according to GPA only. People with Music degrees and no science backgrounds are chosen over biochem and science majors with slightly less GPAs. Yes Melbourne was like this as well.....but now they are not. This new program is a big leap in credibility. I don`t know about you, but I want to learn with people that are not taking basic biology for the first time. In the end USYD and MELBOURNE = Dentist in Canada and Australia. Choose according to whats important to you. Most people would be excited to have graduated from either

Why would USyd have a preference for science majors, and you are completely false that North American dental schools only take science graduates. I graduated from the medical program at USyd, I am originally from Michigan and did my undergraduate studies at U of M Ann Arbor, many of my friends who majored in Liberal Arts went to both Dental and Medical schools(MD and DO). Melbourne did this because they wanted to market the program to North Americans like you who clearly have some kind of chip on their shoulder. The Australian BDS is largely the same as a North American DDS, just as an MBBS is equal to an MD.

Also if you think you are going to earn more money in North America you are deluded, incomes for Dentists are higher in Australia than they are in the US. Most private practice Dentists in North America rarely net over 120k to 150k a year, and these are Dentists working for several years. That is the same amount a freshly graduate Dentist in Australia would earn.

Also incomes for physicians are better in Australia than in North America. I know an attending at a top teaching hospital in the US in Internal Medicine, my income next year as a first year registrar will be almost as much as she earns. Also the health reform bill that was recently passed all but guarantees that physician incomes in the USA will fall, especially for specialists because many of them depend on Medicare reimbursement which is going to fall.

You are yet another tall poppy North American trying to knock down Australia, why don't you just go home if you think Oz is inferior.

And an Australian Dental degree does not allow you to work in Canada or the US, that is silly, it allows you to register for work in Australia. Its easier for students in Medicine to go home than students in Dentistry that is a fact since many Americans go overseas for Medicine but for Dentistry its rare. And speaking of working you must be joking if you think you have a better working life in America or Canada, I would not go back to America for anything. And anyway the US economy is completely in the crapper, my home state has 30 percent unemployment, even rich states like California have 16 percent real unemployment, while Australia is continuing to do with under 5 percent unemployment. And the Aussie and US Dollar are roughly equal and with the ever increasing spending by the US government, the US dollar will continue to plunge in value over the next several years. And all those unemployed people are going to avoid unnecessary expenses including Dental visits, most Dentists I know in the States are barely treading water.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Why would USyd have a preference for science majors, and you are completely false that North American dental schools only take science graduates. I graduated from the medical program at USyd, I am originally from Michigan and did my undergraduate studies at U of M Ann Arbor, many of my friends who majored in Liberal Arts went to both Dental and Medical schools(MD and DO). Melbourne did this because they wanted to market the program to North Americans like you who clearly have some kind of chip on their shoulder. The Australian BDS is largely the same as a North American DDS, just as an MBBS is equal to an MD.

Also if you think you are going to earn more money in North America you are deluded, incomes for Dentists are higher in Australia than they are in the US. Most private practice Dentists in North America rarely net over 120k to 150k a year, and these are Dentists working for several years. That is the same amount a freshly graduate Dentist in Australia would earn.

Also incomes for physicians are better in Australia than in North America. I know an attending at a top teaching hospital in the US in Internal Medicine, my income next year as a first year registrar will be almost as much as she earns. Also the health reform bill that was recently passed all but guarantees that physician incomes in the USA will fall, especially for specialists because many of them depend on Medicare reimbursement which is going to fall.

You are yet another tall poppy North American trying to knock down Australia, why don't you just go home if you think Oz is inferior.

Thanks PacificBlue.. yeah.. Australia and Canada are not "offshore med/dental programs" for American's who couldn't get accepted in their own country. This isn't the Caribbean. We have world class programs for our own citizens. Some schools have spots for international students and some don't. Sydney Dental and Dalhousie Dental for example both have class sizes of about 75-80 students/year out of those have about 10 spots for international students.

 

[teamplayer7]

Wow, I'm so not on the offense, I guess you could think that when everything I'm saying is opposite of what you're saying. Im just correcting what you said. You are misinforming people. You have a lot of knowledge but it's outdated mate.

1. Yes, everyone can work 20hrs but......Melbourne DDS allows for FULLTIME working VISA for student and spouse. Much better then 20hrs.

2. No, I AM CANADIAN

3. Who said they would sue you? not me. I've been in the Canadian dental industry for 6years. Dental offices getting sued in Canada (even more the US) is REALITY. I was just saying that it is a possible legal issue to mislead people into believing you have a DDS when you really have a BDENT, whether you think there is a difference or not. It doesnt matter if you know people who do this currently.

4. Sydney no longer throws out GPA and bases their selection on Interview only........ Go ask Anne @ admissions on how they based 2011 intake if you don't believe me. Sydney has a pass/fail interview. 90% passed the interview. Then they put everyone in the same pool and ranked according to grades no matter what discipline, work experience.

5. Sydney no longer has a manual skills exam (ortho wire bending, wax carving, etc)

Please read what I say and check into the facts before discrediting what I'm saying. I'm not writing this to discredit USYD dental. I'm just informing people such as yourself about the differences in programs.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

if you think you are going to earn more money in North America you are deluded, incomes for Dentists are higher in Australia than they are in the US. Most private practice Dentists in North America rarely net over 120k to 150k a year, and these are Dentists working for several years. That is the same amount a freshly graduate Dentist in Australia would earn.

Also incomes for physicians are better in Australia than in North America. I know an attending at a top teaching hospital in the US in Internal Medicine, my income next year as a first year registrar will be almost as much as she earns. Also the health reform bill that was recently passed all but guarantees that physician incomes in the USA will fall, especially for specialists because many of them depend on Medicare reimbursement which is going to fall.

And an Australian Dental degree does not allow you to work in Canada

I would not go back to America for anything. And anyway the US economy is completely in the crapper, my home state has 30 percent unemployment, even rich states like California have 16 percent real unemployment, while Australia is continuing to do with under 5 percent unemployment. And the Aussie and US Dollar are roughly equal and with the ever increasing spending by the US government, the US dollar will continue to plunge in value over the next several years. And all those unemployed people are going to avoid unnecessary expenses including Dental visits, most Dentists I know in the States are barely treading water.

actually... Canada and Australia now have a reciprocal accreditation agreement. Every Australian dental school is accredited in Canada and visa versa.

But I agree with you on everything else.

Both lifestyle and money are better in Australia.

 

[teamplayer7]

PacificBlue - It seems like you didn't even read what I said and just put words in my mouth. Because of this and your abvious emotional reply i will be short.

I never said:

"that North American dental schools only take science graduates"

I don't think:

"you are going to earn more money in North America"

I am not :

"You are yet another tall poppy North American trying to knock down Australia, why don't you just go home if you think Oz is inferior"

I love australia and think their dental programs are world class, I'm simply showing people the differences in programs. I'm sorry the truth is upsetting to you. Please don't shoot the messenger. It sounds as if you hate Melbourne DDS for some reason? Pretty much everything you said about me is incorrect and I said nothing that you said I said......so weird

why would USYD prefer someone with a science background (prereqs)? Why would any dental school want prereqs? its very obvious why they would........not even worth the debate

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Wow, I'm so not on the offense, I guess you could think that when everything I'm saying is opposite of what you're saying. Im just correcting what you said. You are misinforming people. You have a lot of knowledge but it's outdated mate.

1. Yes, everyone can work 20hrs Melbourne DDS allows for Fulltime working VISA for student and spouse

2. No, I am Canadian

3. Who said they would sue you? not me. I've been in the Canadian dental industry for 6years. Dental offices getting sued in Canada (even more the US) is REALITY. I was just saying that it is a possible legal issue to mislead people into believing you have a DDS when you really have a BDENT, whether you think there is a difference or not. It doesnt matter if you know people who do this currently.

4. Sydney no longer throws out GPA and bases their selection on Interview only........ Go ask Anne @ admissions on how they based 2011 intake if you don't believe me. Sydney has a pass/fail interview. 90% passed the interview. Then they put everyone in the same pool and ranked according to grades no matter what discipline, work experience.

5. Sydney no longer has a manual skills exam (ortho wire bending, wax carving, etc)

Please read what I say and check into the facts before discrediting what I'm saying. I'm not writing this to discredit USYD dental. I'm just informing people such as yourself about the differences in programs.

So please stay in Canada, don't come to Australia you are not wanted nor are you needed.

Stay home don't come here, save your money. I had the misfortune of running into people with your attitude during my first year at USyd, one of them finally grew a neuron and decided to go home to Ontario, she kept complaing about Sydney but for some reason thought Ottawa was better LOL. This is pretty much the reason I never talked to my fellow Americans or Canadian students during my years at USyd, you embarrass me.

And please don't tell me that North American health care professionals are better of than those in Australia.

 

[teamplayer7]

your just another American who wants to fight for no reason. Good luck with that.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

just as an aside.. McMaster's undergraduate MD in Canada program is 3 years long and also requires no pre-reqs. I think they base most of their decision on interview.



At the end of the day.. All Australian dental schools are accredited and train you to become a dentist. You learn the same things in all dental schools (be it Canada, Australia, USA). You only get out what you put in...

Sydney and Melbourne are both great programs.

So are you starting next year at Melb? ... or is it your partner who is starting dental school?

 

[PacificBlue2012]

your just another American who wants to fight for no reason. Good luck with that.

LOL. Actually I am a green card holder, but I see no reason in going back to the States. You are another tall poppy North American. Here is some advice save your money and apply only to North American dental schools, don't waste you time and money.

And I can tell you Aussies are very up front about things. I saw that during my first week at USyd, a Canadian was remarking about Australian beer and a girl told him if he did not like it to go back home.

I do not hate the Melbourne DDS, I think they should not bother changing the degree to accomodate North Americans, especially since they are a minority of students.

You show a weird way of loving Australia. If you are going to Dental school here, good luck even being able to work 6 hours week because you will be very busy, having class from 8 to 5 and then having to go home and review each night. And if your goal is to work in NA why bother coming to Oz? Did not get in anywhere in NA? I actually got into two North American medical schools but did not want to put myself 300k in debt so I applied to Australia through the local pool, I had PR before I started at USyd and unlike my North American colleagues I am not hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.

 

[teamplayer7]

Canada and Australia now have a reciprocal accreditation agreement

cda (already already has approved reciprocal accreditation agreement) but has not finalized agreement with National Dental Examining Board of Canada . The details are being ironed out in October and should be finalized and released by the end of October. So.....were not 100% out of the woods yet rest assured an agreement is on its way. The major step was the accredidation. The type of things they are reviewing...... They are contemplating putting a cap on the # of students. I don't believe they will decide on this but who knows, its still possible that the NDB may put other loopholes in the way of students, I feel this is very unlikely. But warning to all, very possible. The good thing is that we find out the end of October. Call CDA or NDB and they are more then willing to disclose what is happening. They have been very nice and have given full disclosure.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Canada and Australia now have a reciprocal accreditation agreement

cda (already already has approved reciprocal accreditation agreement) but has not finalized agreement with National Dental Examining Board of Canada . The details are being ironed out in October and should be finalized and released by the end of October. So.....were not 100% out of the woods yet rest assured an agreement is on its way. The major step was the accredidation. The type of things they are reviewing...... They are contemplating putting a cap on the # of students. I don't believe they will decide on this but who knows, its still possible that the NDB may put other loopholes in the way of students, I feel this is very unlikely. But warning to all, very possible. The good thing is that we find out the end of October. Call CDA or NDB and they are more then willing to disclose what is happening. They have been very nice and have given full disclosure.

Who cares.

 

[teamplayer7]

YES I agree

Sydney and Melbourne are both great programs

I'm the spouse, currently in the Dental industry. My wife was fortunate enough to be accepted at USYD and UMELB DDS. SHe has chosen Umelb just bc I get a fulltime work VISA. If the VISA was the same at both schools we would have picked USYD because we like Sydney more. There was lots of research put into our decision. Can't wait to move to OZ

 

[PacificBlue2012]

i'm not trying to argue here but i think it is worthwile to ask who recognizes the MBBS as equivalent to the MD.

yes, the licensing authorities consider it equivalent; however, state medical boards, which issue licenses, don't do anything to evaluate overseas medical schools. no overseas medical school is accredited by the LCME. The department of education does have a foreign schools division that evaluates overseas medical schools. they evaluate them to determine their eligibility to distribute US federal loans. this came about when a handful of start-up caribean med school dissolved, maybe 20 years back, and left a lot of US citizens with enormous US federal student loan debt and no way to repay it. one of the main criteria in evaluating foreign med school is the accreditation standards. the department of education's foreign school's division emphasizes they will not cite foreign state's have equivalent accreditation standards for medical schools, rather that they note whether or not state's have accrediation standards SIMILAR to those of the LCME.

yes, an overseas MBBS can get you a US medical license and allow you to call yourself MD. the is more because the MBBS is that country's equivalent to the MD; i.e. they don't offer the MD to med grads, they offer the MBBS. but i feel saying completing an Aus MBBS is equivalent to completing a US MD is misleading. this is clearly not true evidence by the fact that N.American students at Aus schools have to devote more time to self directed study for the USMLE than US students. further, US schools are not all equivalent.

An Australian MD is a research degree. Dr. Robinson, who is the current head of USyd holds this degree as well as an MBBS. They are completely different things.

Australian schools are not Caribbean schools, the people who study in Australia are bright talented people, not the rejects you find at Caribbean schools. And the curriculum at USyd has become quite rigorous, there were some issues during the early years when it became a four year course but the level of basic science has been augmented substantially and more lectures and labs have been added. It used to be heavily PBL, and its still a PBL school but lectures and labs are a big part of the basic sciences.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Who cares.

The reciprocal agreement with Canada is a good thing. It also provides dental graduates from both countries more options to work as well as more postgraduate training opportunities for both parties involved.

Australia used to have an agreement with the UK but when they joined the EU in 2000-2001 they stopped accrediting dental schools in the commonwealth. If you graduated from an Australian dental school in 1999 you could go work in the UK as if you were a local graduate (provided you obtained a visa). If you graduated after 2000 you now have to sit exams for foreign dentists with everyone else.

For a Canadian graduate to work in Australia even now that they are accredited here.. they still have to obtain a visa and or PR and that is getting more and more difficult.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

YES I agree

Sydney and Melbourne are both great programs

I'm the spouse, currently in the Dental industry. My wife was fortunate enough to be accepted at USYD and UMELB DDS. SHe has chosen Umelb just bc I get a fulltime work VISA. If the VISA was the same at both schools we would have picked USYD because we like Sydney more. There was lots of research put into our decision. Can't wait to move to OZ

Have you found a job in Australia yet? What area of dentistry are you involved in?

 

[teamplayer7]

I havn't started looking. I will probably stay in Canada for a year before I join her. I'm a dental practice consultant, i help make dental practices more profitable.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

The reciprocal agreement with Canada is a good thing. It also provides dental graduates from both countries more options to work as well as more postgraduate training opportunities for both parties involved.

Australia used to have an agreement with the UK but when they joined the EU in 2000-2001 they stopped accrediting dental schools in the commonwealth. If you graduated from an Australian dental school in 1999 you could go work in the UK as if you were a local graduate (provided you obtained a visa). If you graduated after 2000 you now have to sit exams for foreign dentists with everyone else.

For a Canadian graduate to work in Australia even now that they are accredited here.. they still have to obtain a visa and or PR and that is getting more and more difficult.

According to Redshift, its possible for Australian trained medical practioners to work in Canada, one of his older posts stated that some Australian training programs have accreditation in Canada such as General Practice.

The issue in the UK is the same for medical graduates, they used to accept Australian qualifications as if they were local. I guess it does open up doors that Dental graduates will have their degrees accredited in Canada.

There was some UQ rep claiming something similar for medical students but I seriously doubt that.

Yes its getting harder to get Australian PR, especially for medical students, but from my knowledge, Dental students should not have issues, as the number of Dental schools and places have remained steady and they do not require post graduate education to be qualified. PR for medical students is kind of tricky, I knew one person who was trying to get it but did not, and his friend who studied Nursing got it. I got PR because I had training in Radiation Therapy before medical school, that was six years ago though.