USMLE Pass Rates: SGU>>>DO

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nradsoit3

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Something else to consider for those who are trying to decide between the DO vs. Carribbean route:

USMLE FIRST TIME PASS RATES averaged over past 5 years:

SGU >90% :thumbup:
ALL DO SCHOOLS ~70% :thumbdown:

The numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2003perf.htm
http://www.sgu.edu/nhome.nsf/webcontent/7FAF8AA7F3A042D085256B6C005285A1?OpenDocument&top=med

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nradsoit3 said:
Something else to consider for those who are trying to decide between the DO vs. Carribbean route:

USMLE FIRST TIME PASS RATES averaged over past 5 years:

SGU >90% :thumbup:
ALL DO SCHOOLS ~70% :thumbdown:

The numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2003perf.htm
http://www.sgu.edu/nhome.nsf/webcontent/7FAF8AA7F3A042D085256B6C005285A1?OpenDocument&top=med

Found this on another message board, anyone care to comment? Realistically I think its somewhere down around 50%

"My understanding for why the pass rates are so high at SGU is that they require their students to pass a simulated board exam before they are allowed to take the USMLE Step 1. This will definitely skew the statistics ... making their pass rate look high. In other words, SGU's students will be held back until they score the minimum passing rate on their simulated board exam before they are allowed to take the USMLE Step 1. So, of course their pass rates look high. I wonder how many students are held back each semester trying to pass the simulated board exam. I wonder how many times those students take the simulated board exam before they finally pass. I'm not trying to put SGU down ... i think the simulated board exam is a great idea, but be aware that this is the reason for SGU's apparent high pass rate. Bottom line, ask recent graduates from those schools you are interested in before making your final decisions."
 
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The national pass rate for DO's on the USMLE is around 70-75%, that is true, but considering that we prep for two exams, which are quite different, and we arent really helped much in doing this, it isnt too surprising. It is not that difficult to pass the USMLE and even do well, with some effort, and some DO schools pas 100% on the USMLE. Does that mean they are better than SGU? I wont make that claim, because I dont know. But at least I wont base my claim on pass rates for a test that does not define quality and that isnt even required by one segment of the population being considered. Selection bias of the highest magnitude.
 
nradsoit3 said:
Something else to consider for those who are trying to decide between the DO vs. Carribbean route:

USMLE FIRST TIME PASS RATES averaged over past 5 years:

SGU >90% :thumbup:
ALL DO SCHOOLS ~70% :thumbdown:

The numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2003perf.htm
http://www.sgu.edu/nhome.nsf/webcontent/7FAF8AA7F3A042D085256B6C005285A1?OpenDocument&top=med

Something to consider: look at the competitive residencies obtained by SGU graduates (remember, each year SGU graduates about what, 500 or 600 students?). Then look at the competitive residencies obtained by a *single* DO school (graduating class about 120 or so per year). Surprise! You make the choice.

Reason: DO students are attending medical school. SGU students are attending a two-year USMLE review course.

Yes, I fed the troll...The troll seemed hungry, given the fact that it cross posted in different forums.
 
You know what.. who cares!!!

That is my personal opinion. I hope that all MD schools prepare their students for the USMLEs. I think that is better for the student and for the institut. Especially SGU and Ross. If I was going to pay that much money and put up with red tape, and have to continouly prove myself to US based schools I would want to do better on the USMLEs just to be able to answer stupid commentary.

Likewise I hope that DO schools prepare their students for the COMLEXs.
If DO schools want to prove how well their education is (which I don't think is necessary... but some continue wanting to compare) they should also prepare the DO students to write the USMLEs. Historicaly MD schools have used these test to say that DO schools are not as good.

Another factor which has been repeated over and over again and I will say it again.. is the time allocated to preparing for 2 test at the same time. Recall that Canadian medical student also have their own board exams and some decide to write the USMLEs. Usually they do worst.. cause they have to study for two. ( side note: For those who are willing to question the validity of Canadian medical schools, I would seriously consider checking you statistics and AMA ratings... MD schools in US and Canada are licensed by same agency AMA).

Instead of seeing who can write a better statement.. in responce to this person and that person. DO's have to decide collectively if they wish to do the following:

1) Demonstrate equality or superiority between DO and MD schools (this is based on USMLEs... as it has been hitoricaly)

2) All DOs writing the USMLEs

3) Schools should prepare us for it (time and practice tests)

4) Students preparing for it seriously (only student can prepare.. schools can't spoon feed us).

5) If we wish to continue having completely seperate exams.


DON'T START ANSWERING MY POST AGRESSIVELY... these are suggestions. DO's have to come up with a resolution to this issue and this can be done with logical fair discussion.. and at the end of the day majority rules. There may also be other questions we need to discuss and plan for the Osteopathic prof.

BA

PS. Only mature reply need apply.
 
Cowboy DO said:
Found this on another message board, anyone care to comment? Realistically I think its somewhere down around 50%

"My understanding for why the pass rates are so high at SGU is that they require their students to pass a simulated board exam before they are allowed to take the USMLE Step 1. This will definitely skew the statistics ... making their pass rate look high. In other words, SGU's students will be held back until they score the minimum passing rate on their simulated board exam before they are allowed to take the USMLE Step 1. So, of course their pass rates look high. I wonder how many students are held back each semester trying to pass the simulated board exam. I wonder how many times those students take the simulated board exam before they finally pass. I'm not trying to put SGU down ... i think the simulated board exam is a great idea, but be aware that this is the reason for SGU's apparent high pass rate. Bottom line, ask recent graduates from those schools you are interested in before making your final decisions."

This is NOT TRUE and is an unfounded attempt to knock this statistic. There is an exam called the BSCE (Basic Science Clinical Exam) that all students take at the end of their first and second years. It is curved in such a way that rougly 2/3 pass and 1/3 "fail". The purpose of this exam is to provide the student with feedback on their progress and for the school's own assessment. In fact, ANY student with a GPA>2.5 is allowed to sit for the USMLE exam even if they fail the BSCE I and II. The only way SGU will not cerfity your usmle application is if you FAIL BSCE I and BSCE II AND your GPA is less than 2.5. I would say this pertains to less than 5% of the class, if that. And of those 5%, most will pass BSCE on retake and be allowed to take USMLE. Needless to say, the VAST majority of students qualify for AND pass USMLE on their first attempt. So, this is a farcry from saying the real pass rate is more like 50%. Like I said, >90%!

Here is the link to a letter issued from the Dean explaining the protocol:

http://valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?t=19492
 
Why is the USMLE pass rate such an important factor to consider when choosing schools, when many residency programs don't even require it for DOs?

Why is this thread still open when its only obvious purpose is to instigate an MD vs DO war? (or worse, a Caribbean MD vs DO war)

Let's talk about something else. Hey, did you hear that PAs can perform surgery? What's up with that?

Also, I think that minorities should have lower entrance standards into med school than the rest of the population. What do you think?
 
Shinken said:
Why is this thread still open when its only obvious purpose is to instigate an MD vs DO war? (or worse, a Caribbean MD vs DO war)

Whether this ends up happening or not depends on how people respond. Right now I'm keeping this open for discussion, but if it degrades it'll be closed.
 
Shinken said:
Also, I think that minorities should have lower entrance standards into med school than the rest of the population. What do you think?


I disagree.



Leftist Policies do the following:

1. High taxes and regulations keep minority upstarts down, protect good old boy network.

2. Government monopoly on education keeps blacks in urban ghetto schools, prevents them from infiltrating our schools.

3. Left properly recognizes blacks as inferior and in need of special help and quotas.

4. Proud tradition of segregationists - only 62% of Democrats supported Civil Rights Act vs. 92% Republicans.

5. 50 years of liberal policies have destroyed the black family - Yes!!!

.
 
docbill said:
You know what.. who cares!!!
Classic. :hardy:

Anyways... to the trollish OP,

That is an impressive stat, esp. for a carib school...
But to keep things in perspective to anyone considering DO vs. SGU...

What happens to an FMG who doesn't pass the USMLE with flying colors?
They're stuck overseas.
What happens to a DO who doesn't even take the USMLE?
Nothing.
 
Buster Douglas said:
Classic. :hardy:

What happens to a DO who doesn't even take the USMLE?
Nothing.

Good point. Not all DOs even take USMLE. The only reason i would do so would be to keep allo residencies a real option.
 
I personally would take it .. and aim to study hard for it.. that way if in the future someone questions my qualifications, I can say well.. oddly enough I score.. so and so.
Or better yet.. not saying anything... just taking out the piece of paper and leting the person read it for themself... then walk away.

Remember that has been the biggest argument against licensing DOs in many states in the past. Once I get in.. if I get in is more correct.. I will make sure to get on the Student body and try to get agreement among DO students in my school and then nationally... on what DO should be doing.. and where we should be going.

Vote for me.. not Repub
 
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In my opinion, the USMLE is really only an issue for a few select, ultra-competitive specialties, when it comes to osteopaths sitting for the exam. It is disturbing to me that the pass rates are so low for DO's, given that these are the people that want to go out in the allo community, and they know firsthand that they need to perform well to do so. They should pass at a higher rate, when that is taken into consideration. However, the statistics show that they dont, and, even though our boards are very hard and stressful, DO's probably dont take the time they should to prepare for USMLE in the manner befitting its difficulty level and importance.
 
I'm a little dubious of this statistic because (1) there is no real accountability imposed that requires SGU (or any Caribbean school, for that matter) to report actual statistics prior to perhaps "cooking" the data a little, and (2) if SGU is > 90% then, according to your own link, they did better than U.S. allo schools on the whole last year, whose 1st time pass rate was right at 90%.

Something's rotten in Denmark.

-Skip
MS4
Ross University
 
Skip Intro said:
I'm a little dubious of this statistic because (1) there is no real accountability imposed that requires SGU (or any Caribbean school, for that matter) to report actual statistics prior to perhaps "cooking" the data a little, and (2) if SGU is > 90% then, according to your own link, they did better than U.S. allo schools on the whole last year, whose 1st time pass rate was right at 90%.

Something's rotten in Denmark.

-Skip
MS4
Ross University
Good point. :thumbup:
 
Skip Intro said:
I'm a little dubious of this statistic because (1) there is no real accountability imposed that requires SGU (or any Caribbean school, for that matter) to report actual statistics prior to perhaps "cooking" the data a little, and (2) if SGU is > 90% then, according to your own link, they did better than U.S. allo schools on the whole last year, whose 1st time pass rate was right at 90%.

Something's rotten in Denmark.

-Skip
MS4
Ross University

Please get your facts straight before quoting Shakespeare. First off, the first time USMLE pass rate for US medical students was 92 and 93% respectively in '02/'03, NOT at 90%. Secondly, the pass rate over the past five years was confirmed by the NBME as evidenced by my link. I don't believe the NBME "cooks" data as every school gets a data report on their student body's outcome. Nevertheless, there have been on several occasions where the pass rate equaled and yes, surpassed the US pass rate- In 2000, the SGU pass rate was 94% while the US pass rate was 93%.
 
what's interesting is DO's don't take the USMLE to become liscensed... so this is kind of a stupid point.

I roll my eyes at you. :rolleyes:
 
USMLE pass rate is one thing, average USMLE passing score is another. For all those SGU people that pass the USMLE, how many (1) pass it with a higher than average score and how many (2) pass it on the first try.

You still haven't answered my questions:

1- Why is a high USMLE pass rate advantageous if a DO student doesn't need the USMLE to apply to most FP and IM residencies (which are the residencies most SGU grads match into)?

2- Why are SGU graduates matching primarily into FP and IM instead of competitive residencies, basically the same as the average DO school?

I have no problem with Caribbean schools or Caribbean grads. I even considered Carib schools as a backup if I couldn't get into a US MD/DO school. It's just anoying when Caribbean students start throwing around meaningless stats as if they mean anything. By the same logic as the OP, it's better to go to SGU over many US MD schools because SGU has a higher USMLE pass rate. See how silly that sounds?
 
nradsoit3 said:
Please get your facts straight before quoting Shakespeare. First off, the first time USMLE pass rate for US medical students was 92 and 93% respectively in '02/'03, NOT at 90%. Secondly, the pass rate over the past five years was confirmed by the NBME as evidenced by my link. I don't believe the NBME "cooks" data as every school gets a data report on their student body's outcome. Nevertheless, there have been on several occasions where the pass rate equaled and yes, surpassed the US pass rate- In 2000, the SGU pass rate was 94% while the US pass rate was 93%.


I'm sorry, you're right. The overall pass rate was 90%. Which means (can I assume?) that 1 out of 10 U.S. medical students wind-up unable to get a license. (?)

The rest of your post goes exactly to my 1st point, which you didn't fully address. Perhaps you can provide some sort of corroboration for your apparent access to this NBME report that SGU has. I think most of us would love to see it. Likewise, nowhere does the SGU site state ">90%", they report 90%. And, the overall pass rate you allude to is the 62% they used for comparison, not directly verifying the 90% that SGU reports. So, you either misunderstood the statistic reported by SGU, or you inferred something that wasn't expressly reported and assumed that SGU gets their data from the NBME.

Nonetheless, I'd love to see the exact source and how SGU came up with 90%. Otherwise, you're just taking their word for it... which is precisely my point.

-Skip
 
As a DO student, I'm trying to think of something I care about less than what foriegn medical school grads score on the USMLE(an optional exam for me), and I'm having trouble coming up with anything so perhaps this should be posted in the foriegn med school section. If I were a student at a foriegn med school however, I would be concerned, and would certainly want to know what the whole story was behind the figures my school/prospective school was putting out there. I would not be too worried though because we all know foriegn schools are known for their honesty and integrity when it comes to advertising :) . In the end the only number that matters is what you get on the USMLE.
 
bigmuny said:
As a DO student, I'm trying to think of something I care about less than what foriegn medical school grads score on the USMLE(an optional exam for me), and I'm having trouble coming up with anything so perhaps this should be posted in the foriegn med school section. If I were a student at a foriegn med school however, I would be concerned, and would certainly want to know what the whole story was behind the figures my school/prospective school was putting out there. I would not be too worried though because we all know foriegn schools are known for their honesty and integrity when it comes to advertising :) . In the end the only number that matters is what you get on the USMLE.

Oh, it was posted in the foreign med school section... and at least one other forum, a blatant violation of TOS in most other forums actually (aka "cross-posting").

I posted mostly just playing Devil's advocate here. After all, I'm a Carib student who's "peered behind the curtain" and can tell you that things are not always what they appear.

However, I still thought that nradsoit3's entire need to post this, as you intimate, was most likely only self-serving and clearly irrelevant. The larger issue is that we are all going to be doctors, and many of us future colleagues. Why the divisiveness? As a very transparent attempt to assuage any fears of a bad decision by attempting to proselytize others into thinking that osteo school is somehow inferior based on the pass rates of one licensure exam? (I'm talking to you, nradsoit3, in case you weren't sure.)

Now, I'm pretty much sick of this old "DO vs. Carib MD" debate, as should be any other veteran of this forum as well. I can only excuse newbies who may not be as aware of the number of times this tired battle has been fought in the various forums on this network. But, nradsoit3, you've been around since January. Next time why don't you do a search, and then do a lot of reading, before you feel the need to make your insecure and laughable inferences about the quality of certain medical education models, about which you adeptly demonstrate your capabilities of parrotting statistics but obviously have very little firsthand or in depth knowledge.

Thank you,

-Skip
MS4 Ross University
 
Let's not forget the fact that many people who went to the Carib couldn't get into a DO school. So for many people, the Carib was their only option and they made the most of their opportunity.

I think this argument is rather pointless. People who attend the Carib do not want the DO title. That's essentially what it comes down to. It is something they fundamentally believe will hurt their chances as a practicing physician. That is a belief that none of us can really change. So for those individuals, I'm glad they pursued the Carib route. I don't want anyone of my classmates to be bitter about their decision to pursue DO. If they have doubts, maybe they should pursue the Carib. I have a good friend who chose AUC over AZCOM and I'm happy for him. In the end, we will all be doctors. For me, DO is a choice I'm happy with. I'm glad to be at AZCOM.
 
nradsoit3 said:
This is NOT TRUE and is an unfounded attempt to knock this statistic. There is an exam called the BSCE (Basic Science Clinical Exam) that all students take at the end of their first and second years. It is curved in such a way that rougly 2/3 pass and 1/3 "fail". The purpose of this exam is to provide the student with feedback on their progress and for the school's own assessment. In fact, ANY student with a GPA>2.5 is allowed to sit for the USMLE exam even if they fail the BSCE I and II. The only way SGU will not cerfity your usmle application is if you FAIL BSCE I and BSCE II AND your GPA is less than 2.5. I would say this pertains to less than 5% of the class, if that. And of those 5%, most will pass BSCE on retake and be allowed to take USMLE. Needless to say, the VAST majority of students qualify for AND pass USMLE on their first attempt. So, this is a farcry from saying the real pass rate is more like 50%. Like I said, >90%!

Here is the link to a letter issued from the Dean explaining the protocol:

http://valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?t=19492

You are not telling the entire story either. Yes, ANY student who fails the BSCE I and II CAN take the USMLE but none of them do. They are not stupid. As important as the USMLE is for a U.S. graduate, it is even more important for a Carib grad. They aren't going to take the real thing if they can't pass their shelfs. This is why Carib grads come to the U.S. early and devote 3-12 months prepping for Step 1. I know this from personal experience because I spoke to several SGU students at the Kaplan center who admitted to failing their BSCE. They took an extra 3-12 months to prepare themselves adequately at Kaplan to score well on the USMLE while most DO and M.D. students spend a month on average. Also, I got bored and I read St. George's forum and I was amazed by how many months students admit to taking off just to study for Step 1.

That is something that St. George and other Carib students cleverly conceal; the amount of extra prep time they devote to Step 1 study. Most of these Carib grads come home to the U.S. and spend months studying for Step 1. Imagine if you could take 5 months after second year just to prep for the USMLE. With this much prep time, I would hope their pass rate is in the 90%. It's not uncommon to see Carib grads post excellent Step I scores. The reason why they have such excellent scores is because they are almost a requirement for them if they want a chance at landing one of their choices among location in residency. This is why Carib grads take Step 1 very seriously because it is their life blood.

And if you don't believe me, check out your local Kaplan and ask the IMG's how long they have been prepping for Step I. Kaplan is mostly full of IMG's who take out additional time to prep for Step I.
 
rahulazcom said:
People who attend the Carib do not want the DO title. That's essentially what it comes down to. It is something they fundamentally believe will hurt their chances as a practicing physician.

Well, I think this is a generalization that's just that: a generalization. For example, I didn't apply anywhere in the U.S. for many reasons, not the least of which was that I wasn't about to take the MCAT again. I have nothing against the osteopathy degree, and I've been friends and colleagues with plenty of D.O. students. In fact, the Chief Resident at the allopathic program I just finished a rotation at was a D.O. from Nova Southeastern.

I don't believe people who actually work day-to-day in the medical field believe that having a D.O. behind your name "hurts" you in any way. That may be the perception of some before they enter medical school, but they certainly wise-up after they've been in the field for a while.

I've trained with a lot of D.O.'s as both attendings, residents, and students. And, not to sound like a broken record to those of you who are familiar with me and my posts, but it really comes down to the individual in all instances. It doesn't matter where you went to school ultimately; it has more to do with who you are and how you interact with your colleagues and patients. No one wears their board scores stitched onto their labcoats.

Now, some peoeple will say that, if they were going to gamble, they'd bet on a U.S. allo MD over a D.O. or Carib M.D. any day of the week. I suppose that's fine... if you're picking your doctor out of a line up. But, that's just not how it works in the real world in most cases. We will all work, unless you are a pure hospitalist in some form, on referrals. The reputation you build as a practicing physician, no matter where you trained, will be paramount to anything else. Even if you're looking for a physician in the Yellow Pages or your company's HMO directory, you realize that all those physicians have had to pass their licensure requirements and, in many cases if not most, the board certification requirements for their field of practice. And, if you can't have some reassurance in that, well then the whole system is pretty f**ked up in general then, isn't it? (And, if anyone wants to try to make that argument, they better start another thread... :laugh: )

So, these discussions about who's better, who's worse, D.O. is inferior, no Carib M.D. is, etc., ad nauseum, are completely pointless and have no bearing on how the real world works. It make take you 3 times to pass each licensure exam. That is not an indicator in a greater sense of what kind of doctor you're going to become. People learn things at different rates, and sometimes this is reflected in performance on standardized tests. But, it is not reflective of motivation, personal skills, likability, caring, compassion, and all the other intangibles that go into being a good doctor. And, personally, I'd trust the opinion of a PA with 20 years experience for run-of-the-mill stuff over just about any U.S. MD fresh out of residency. And, most of medicine is run-of-the-mill. That's all that's really important. And, that's all you need to know.

Now, let's forget about these unproductive, ego-preserving, pointless discussions about stupid irrelevant things like board passing rates.

-Skip
 
Skip Intro

I think that is great that you have made the effort to appreciate DO's like any other professionals. I would respectfully disagree with you. I think you are in the minority if you chose to go to the Caribbean over any place in the U.S. I know several people who have gone to schools in the Caribbean and they usually fit into two categories

A. They couldn't get into any U.S. M.D. or D.O. school
B. They got into a D.O school but chose the Carribbean route for the sake of the M.D. title.

I was just making the argument that those who were accepted to a DO school and chose a Carib school instead probably did so for the M.D. title. I'm sure there are people like you who wanted to live on the islands and avoid repeating the MCAT but again, I think this group is in minority. You are the first person I have ever spoken to that implied they chose the Caribbean over going to a U.S. M.D. or D.O. school. I don't have a problem with people going to the Caribbean for the M.D. title. For example, one friend made the argument that when people choose their physicians on their insurance forms at work, most of them would be less inclined to choose a DO physician because the general public still has no idea what a DO is. The DO title would be foreign to them and thus cause them to ignore selecting a DO. This is a legitimate argument and I can't put down my Carib friends who chose SGU, Ross or AUC over a DO school. This argument wasn't convincing to me because I feel that physicians get nearly all of their patients through referrals. And if you are referred by someone else, it's not going to matter if one is a M.D., DO or IMG M.D. Anyway, I don't think my Carib friends are shallow for thinking this way. Everyone has their opinion and beliefs about certain criteria. I disagree with them but it doesn't mean that I'm right and they are wrong.
 
rahulazcom said:
You are the first person I have ever spoken to that implied they chose the Caribbean over going to a U.S. M.D. or D.O. school.

Well, I wouldn't say I necessarily chose the Caribbean over a U.S. school, be it M.D. or D.O. My decision was purely circumstantial and, had those circumstances been different, I would have tried to stay in the U.S. I think it's interesting that, if you really ask, you'll find that upwards of 40% of Carib students didn't even bother applying in the U.S. - either MD or DO. I read that as part of a study somewhere (and I believe it was AMA or AAMC reported, I'm not making this up), and was a bit shocked to find the number so large despite the fact that I myself was one of those reported 40%. But, in asking around with my classmates, many of them as well did not apply in the U.S. opting instead to save all the time and money and just go for the sure thing. Maybe this was a reflection of their own perceived strength (or lack thereof) of their application, I don't know. Personally, I believe that my application was probably strong enough to get into a U.S. allo and osteo school, but I just had supervening circumstances.

My larger point is that we're all going to be doctors and, I think, the D.O. option is clearly more recognized now than it was even 10-15 years ago. And, with more and more D.O.'s out there, there's going to be less and less :confused: as they get out and practice.

I'm not begrudging anyone for their choices. I think U.S. allo students should be proud of themselves that they worked hard, got the good grades in undergrad, scored well on the MCATs, and played the game right in order to get their spot. Likewise, whether it was a back-up plan or not, osteo students should feel equally proud that they got a spot and are going to become doctors. And, Carib students, if they can make it through the rigors of studying medicine in not the best of environments (especially at Ross), pass their license exams, come back to the U.S. for their clinicals and residency, then more power to them. Each has proven themselves in my book.

Still, there are much more important intangible qualities to being a great physician that cannot always be measured by one's pedigree. Unfortunately, I can't disagree with you entirely that there is a perceived "stigma" when some not-so-well-informed people see that "D.O." or find out their physician went to, God forbid, the Caribbean to get his/her degree. But, this is due in large part to their own ignorance about what it takes to become a doctor and be privileged to carry that title, a title that state licensing boards don't confer to just anyone.

Other than those minor points, I think we're singing from the same choir sheet.

-Skip
 
nradsoit3 said:
Something else to consider for those who are trying to decide between the DO vs. Carribbean route:

USMLE FIRST TIME PASS RATES averaged over past 5 years:

SGU >90% :thumbup:
ALL DO SCHOOLS ~70% :thumbdown:

The numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2003perf.htm
http://www.sgu.edu/nhome.nsf/webcontent/7FAF8AA7F3A042D085256B6C005285A1?OpenDocument&top=med

There are servere consequences if a U.S. medical school purposefully published false data and U.S. schools are constantly under the scrutiny of their organizations, mass media(i.e. usnews) and the government.

I wonder what the government and residents of Greneda, St. James, or Trinidad would do if USMLE prep schools there such as St. G. published false data.

JACK.

Enough Said.
 
Jinyaoysiu said:
I wonder what the government and residents of Greneda, St. James, or Trinidad would do if USMLE prep schools there such as St. G. published false data.

JACK.

Enough Said.

Well, probably not entirely "false", but perhaps a little "cooked" (a term I like to use). As was pointed out, only a select group of students at Ross and SGU get to take the boards... and this is after passing numerous tests, without doing which they are ineligible to even sit for the USMLE, during their pre-clinical years. I don't know the specifics at SGU, but at Ross you are required to take the NBME Comprehensive "shelf" exam at the end of your fourth semester if your GPA is below 2.9*. If you do not achieve a set passing score on this test, you must stay on the island an additional 10 weeks to complete what they call the Basic Medical Sciences Integration (BMSI) course. If, after taking this course, you still can't pass the comprehensive shelf, you repeat the course again... you get the drift.

So, by the time many of these students have remediated and eventually do get the chance to sit for the USMLE Step 1, they've either been weeded-out (i.e., can't pass the Comp shelf no matter how many times they take it and are dropped), or have been so well prepped that they are ready for the exam.

This speaks nothing to average scores either.

Anyway, there are more explanations than the obvious to most data, and this certainly could be one of them. Simply publishing a 90% 1st time pass rate doesn't tell the whole story.

-Skip

* Ross has collected a HUGE amount of statistics that show that if you have a 2.9 or better in their basic sciences course, you automatically have about an 85-90% chance of passing Step 1 on the first try. The higher your GPA, the higher your chance of passing on the first try. Why they don't more openly share this type of info with prospective students... well, that's a question only they can answer. But, suffice it to say that, although it doesn't always seem so, there is a method to their sometimes apparent madness.
 
Skip Intro said:
Why they don't more openly share this type of info with prospective students... well, that's a question only they can answer.

Actually, I stand partially corrected... (I hate it when I have to correct myself :laugh: )

Students should aim to maintain a B average or better during the Basic Science Segment. This predicts high passing rates and high scores on the USMLE Step 1.

http://www.rossmed.edu/Medical_School/1.html

... but they still don't fully and openly publish their data that justifies this statement (not that they are, as was pointed out, compelled to).

-Skip
 
Well, here is my take on it.

I went to Ross, I took the USMLE and now I'm a board Certified Physician.

I worked along side of DO residents as well as M.D. residents. We all did well.
We are all Board Certified now.

By the way you don't have to take the USMLE if you are in a DO program. DO programs have their own test. But many do.

In my experience I have learned that passing a test does not always make a good doctor.

In fact the USMLE has never stated that by passing their exam, you will become a good doctor. They simply say, it shows that you have a fund of knowledge based on bookwork, that is a minimum required to start residency training as a doctor.

Many people can take a test and do very well. But that does not alway translate into good doctor.


I have worked with D.O. and M.D. doctors and have seen little difference in quality. I have also worked with chief of medicine in pulmonary medicine or critical care that was trained at AUC and believe me this guy knows what he is doing.

EH.
 
erichaj said:
Well, here is my take on it.

I went to Ross, I took the USMLE and now I'm a board Certified Physician.

I worked along side of DO residents as well as M.D. residents. We all did well.
We are all Board Certified now.

By the way you don't have to take the USMLE if you are in a DO program. DO programs have their own test. But many do.

In my experience I have learned that passing a test does not always make a good doctor.

In fact the USMLE has never stated that by passing their exam, you will become a good doctor. They simply say, it shows that you have a fund of knowledge based on bookwork, that is a minimum required to start residency training as a doctor.

Many people can take a test and do very well. But that does not alway translate into good doctor.


I have worked with D.O. and M.D. doctors and have seen little difference in quality. I have also worked with chief of medicine in pulmonary medicine or critical care that was trained at AUC and believe me this guy knows what he is doing.

EH.

By far the most intelligent post on this thread. Once you are finished, this argument will seem a little silly. BTW, most DO students who take the USMLE are doing so as an afterthought to the COMLEX. They study for the COMLEX, pass it, and then try to take a totally different test without much extra prep. I think that the pass rate, considering these facts, is pretty good. Look at the pass rates of the DO students who took steps II and III. They are much better than the Caribbean testees.
 
WannabeDO said:
By far the most intelligent post on this thread. Once you are finished, this argument will seem a little silly. BTW, most DO students who take the USMLE are doing so as an afterthought to the COMLEX. They study for the COMLEX, pass it, and then try to take a totally different test without much extra prep. I think that the pass rate, considering these facts, is pretty good.

Good, excellent, agreed, right on, so far so good... and then...

WannabeDO said:
Look at the pass rates of the DO students who took steps II and III. They are much better than the Caribbean testees.

... you blew it!

This is precisely the type of unnecessary, non-productive factoid divisiveness that we've been talking against for the last several posts. Why, I ask you, why did you have to add this in there?

IT DOESN'T MATTER!!

PERIOD.

Let's leave it at that.

:)

-Skip
 
I completely agree with WANNABEDO - the USMLE is just something to take. Most DO students do not prepare for it the way they ought to because of the focus on the complex which is much more clinically based.



Skip Intro said:
Good, excellent, agreed, right on, so far so good... and then...



... you blew it!

This is precisely the type of unnecessary, non-productive factoid divisiveness that we've been talking against for the last several posts. Why, I ask you, why did you have to add this in there?

IT DOESN'T MATTER!!

PERIOD.

Let's leave it at that.

:)

-Skip
 
I couldn't help myself. I had to add that last bit because I think it proves my point that the people who really want to do well on the USMLE will take steps II and III. Whereas step I is often an afterthought. But yes, it was unnecessary to add that last tidbit otherwise.

Skip Intro said:
Good, excellent, agreed, right on, so far so good... and then...



... you blew it!

This is precisely the type of unnecessary, non-productive factoid divisiveness that we've been talking against for the last several posts. Why, I ask you, why did you have to add this in there?

IT DOESN'T MATTER!!

PERIOD.

Let's leave it at that.

:)

-Skip
 
apass said:
I completely agree with WANNABEDO - the USMLE is just something to take. Most DO students do not prepare for it the way they ought to because of the focus on the complex which is much more clinically based.

Not sure what you are talking about. Anyways you'll find out and hopefully not the hard way.
 
I completely agree with WANNABEDO - the USMLE is just something to take. Most DO students do not prepare for it the way they ought to because of the focus on the complex which is much more clinically based.

Crappy way to blow $400+.
 
EctopicFetus said:
Crappy way to blow $400+.


$400?!??!? You wish.

USMLE Step 2, which is now 2-part (CS & CK), is a total of $1875.00!!! (CS = $675, CK = $1200).

Try that on for size.

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
I think it's interesting that, if you really ask, you'll find that upwards of 40% of Carib students didn't even bother applying in the U.S. - either MD or DO.

This means nothing. Many Carib grads know their stats aren't competitive for a U.S. M.D. or D.O. school thus they don't bother to even apply. I know someone who did just that last year. His stats were so poor, and he didn't want to waste time completing an MPH, MS or postbac so he just settled on AUC knowing he would save 2 years in time. I highly doubt that 40% of those people had impressive stats and simply chose the IMG route as you imply.

But, in asking around with my classmates, many of them as well did not apply in the U.S. opting instead to save all the time and money and just go for the sure thing. Maybe this was a reflection of their own perceived strength (or lack thereof) of their application, I don't know. Personally, I believe that my application was probably strong enough to get into a U.S. allo and osteo school, but I just had supervening circumstances.

No one with competitive scores is going to say:"To hell with it, I know I have a 3.8 GPA but I'm just going to Ross and I won't even bother applying to any U.S. schools because I hate writing essays and taking the MCAT."

If you want to have an intelligent conversation here, please don't insult the intelligence of other members here by resorting to ridiculous arguments. You aren't going to convince anyone that people chose the IMG route because they didn't want to "go through the hassle of applying." No one is going to bust their hump for 4 years in undergrad to earn respectable grades only to develop a sudden case of laziness after their Junior year and not even apply to U.S. medical schools, and instead apply to a Carribbean school. You aren't going to convince anyone of this argument. This isn't a generalization; this is common sense.

Finally, this argument isn't pointless. It does matter where you go to medical school. Even DO's will struggle in matching in surgical subspecialties when compared to M.D.'s Ask idiopathic about his quest to pursue neurosurgery. With his board scores, he would have a lot easier time if he was an M.D. The bottom-line is it all depends. It all depends on what field you are interested in. Everything is relative. For primary care, it really doesn't matter if you are an M.D., D.O. or IMG. For fields like PM&R, general surgery, and ER, you want to be either an M.D. or a D.O. For neurosurgery, integrated plastics, ENT, othalmology etc., being an M.D. is almost a requirement. So, let's avoid the PC nonsense and be a little more forthcoming for once.
 
azcomdiddy said:
You aren't going to convince anyone that people chose the IMG route because they didn't want to "go through the hassle of applying." No one is going to bust their hump for 4 years in undergrad to earn respectable grades only to develop a sudden case of laziness after their Junior year and not even apply to U.S. medical schools, and instead apply to a Carribbean school. You aren't going to convince anyone of this argument. This isn't a generalization; this is common sense.

Well, first off, you falsely assume that I came straight out of college and went to Ross... didn't have a near fatal illness in my early twenties... eventually survive it... and then work for 8 years... publish in a peer-reviewed journal... etc., etc.

Not everyone will fit your paradigm of the "traditional pre-med", dude. And, a lot of them end-up at Ross, not having applied anywhere in the U.S. Not to mention the numerous other "non-trads" that we get. 60% sounds about right. If that seems "unintelligent" to you, perhaps you're the one who needs to do more research.

;)

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
Well, first off, you falsely assume that I came straight out of college and went to Ross... didn't have a near fatal illness in my early twenties... eventually survive it... and then work for 8 years... publish in a peer-reviewed journal... etc., etc.

Not everyone will fit your paradigm of the "traditional pre-med", dude. And, a lot of them end-up at Ross, not having applied anywhere in the U.S. Not to mention the numerous other "non-trads" that we get. 60% sounds about right. If that seems "unintelligent" to you, perhaps you're the one who needs to do more research.

;)

-Skip

I know a lot of them end up Ross not having applied to any U.S. M.D. or D.O. school. We have already been over this. The reason they don't apply to U.S. schools is because their stats suck. It's that simple They know they have no chance of getting into any U.S. school and rather than waste money applying or bombing the MCAT again, they just flee to the Carribean.

I didn't assume anything about you. I know your situation is unique and that's just it, it is unique. I doubt 40% of the people at Ross had a fatal illness in their 20's and survived it unless you are talking about alcohol toxicity which probably explains their low GPA's.

Non-traditional students are just like any other student. They must have respectable scores to enter a U.S. M.D. or D.O. school. If they lack them, they go to Ross or pursue a graduate degree. Ross requires the MCAT and all the pre-req's as any U.S. medical school so a non-traditional student isn't really saving much time by going to Ross. Not to mention the fact they will pay more in tuition, moving costs and traveling, it's not feasible for a non-traditional student to go to the Carribean unless they have to, meaning they had subpar stats. Ross gets plenty of students who had low undergraduate GPA's because they were not considering medical school 20 years ago. Rather than pursue a graduate degree to compensate for their weak stats, they settle on Ross. But non-traditional students with competitive stats are easily admitted to U.S. medical schools because of the diverse experience they bring.

I suggest you do your research and realize that 98% all of your classmates chose Ross because they had to. If they could have gotten into a U.S. M.D. school they would have done so. Sorry, but you aren't going to convince most people that 60% of your school were suffering from a fatal illness or just wanted to attend a medical school on the beach.

Let us move on
 
Okay you guys still talking about this!
I am going to stop reading this thread.

My new phrase is WHO CARES.. to each his own school... career path.
 
azcomdiddy said:
I know a lot of them end up Ross not having applied to any U.S. M.D. or D.O. school. We have already been over this. The reason they don't apply to U.S. schools is because their stats suck. It's that simple They know they have no chance of getting into any U.S. school and rather than waste money applying or bombing the MCAT again, they just flee to the Carribean.

I didn't assume anything about you. I know your situation is unique and that's just it, it is unique. I doubt 40% of the people at Ross had a fatal illness in their 20's and survived it unless you are talking about alcohol toxicity which probably explains their low GPA's.

Non-traditional students are just like any other student. They must have respectable scores to enter a U.S. M.D. or D.O. school. If they lack them, they go to Ross or pursue a graduate degree. Ross requires the MCAT and all the pre-req's as any U.S. medical school so a non-traditional student isn't really saving much time by going to Ross. Not to mention the fact they will pay more in tuition, moving costs and traveling, it's not feasible for a non-traditional student to go to the Carribean unless they have to, meaning they had subpar stats. Ross gets plenty of students who had low undergraduate GPA's because they were not considering medical school 20 years ago. Rather than pursue a graduate degree to compensate for their weak stats, they settle on Ross. But non-traditional students with competitive stats are easily admitted to U.S. medical schools because of the diverse experience they bring.

I suggest you do your research and realize that 98% all of your classmates chose Ross because they had to. If they could have gotten into a U.S. M.D. school they would have done so. Sorry, but you aren't going to convince most people that 60% of your school were suffering from a fatal illness or just wanted to attend a medical school on the beach.

Let us move on

I did not intend to embark on "Caribbean apologetics" just as you didn't, I'm sure, intend on presenting "Osteopathic apologetics" in this reply. But, that seems to be what has happened.

Still, you read this entire thread, and your need to respond tells me that we are still having a problem getting to the bigger picture.

I agree. We should move on.

:(

-Skip
 
Screw the USMLE scores! Here's why you dont go to school in the caribbean: because these are basically third world countries:

From CNN: regarding hurricane Ivan
-------------------------
Students at St. George's University, which overlooks the Grenadian capital, hid under mattresses or in bathrooms. "The pipes were whistling, the doors were vibrating, gusts were coming underneath the window," said Sonya Lazarevic, a first-year students from New York.

"It looks like a landslide happened," said another student, Nicole Organ, 21, of Toronto "There are all these colors coming down the mountainside -- sheets of metal, pieces of shacks, roofs came off in layers."

She said that the danger didn't end with the winds. Organ said she wandered downtown later and saw bands of machete-wielding men looting a hardware store.

Lazarevic said the mostly American student body was arming with knives, sticks and pepper spray for fear that looters would move into areas near the school.

"We don't feel safe," she told The Associated Press by telephone.

Grenada Police Commissioner Roy Bedaau said every police station in the country had been damaged, hindering efforts to control the looting. He said other Caribbean countries were sending troops to help patrol.
-----------------------

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WEATHER/09/09/hurricane.ivan.ap/index.html
 
pafbdoc said:
Screw the USMLE scores! Here's why you dont go to school in the caribbean: because these are basically third world countries:

From CNN: regarding hurricane Ivan
-------------------------
Students at St. George's University, which overlooks the Grenadian capital, hid under mattresses or in bathrooms. "The pipes were whistling, the doors were vibrating, gusts were coming underneath the window," said Sonya Lazarevic, a first-year students from New York.

"It looks like a landslide happened," said another student, Nicole Organ, 21, of Toronto "There are all these colors coming down the mountainside -- sheets of metal, pieces of shacks, roofs came off in layers."

She said that the danger didn't end with the winds. Organ said she wandered downtown later and saw bands of machete-wielding men looting a hardware store.

Lazarevic said the mostly American student body was arming with knives, sticks and pepper spray for fear that looters would move into areas near the school.

"We don't feel safe," she told The Associated Press by telephone.

Grenada Police Commissioner Roy Bedaau said every police station in the country had been damaged, hindering efforts to control the looting. He said other Caribbean countries were sending troops to help patrol.
-----------------------

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WEATHER/09/09/hurricane.ivan.ap/index.html

Yes, they are third-world countries. What happened with Ivan is awful. But, this should at least quell any misconceptions that Carib students are at a "Club Med" atmosphere sitting on the beach drinking Pina Coladas all day long.

It's not an easy journey. It's not for everyone. And, when tragedy strikes (e.g., I was on Dominica during 9/11), it makes you really miss and appreciate home.

:(

-Skip
 
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