USMLE Equivalency?

[FatKid]

Hello everyone,

I am a Canadian Citizen currently attending a US M.D. school.

My parents have been telling me about all the news hype about the doctor shortage in Canada. They said someone about Canada now recognizing the USMLE as equivalent? For some reason, I don't believe them and think they misunderstood what they heard.

If I complete and pass my USMLE Steps 1, 2 and 3, will I be able to do residency in Canada? Will I be able to practice in Canada after I do my US residency?

Do I have to take separate Canadian licensing exams/board exams to come to Canada if I am licensed here in the US?

Thank you,

FatKid

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[Giemsa]

http://carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_e.shtml

http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?id=2352 (Ontario ONLY)

 

[lukazo]

well I also have heard that passing USMLE steps give you the eligibility to do residency in Canada, but I'm not 100% sure about that. What about the practice eligibility as a physician, I don't know. You'd better ask academic authorities in your medical school for further information.

 

[FatKid]

well I also have heard that passing USMLE steps give you the eligibility to do residency in Canada, but I'm not 100% sure about that. What about the practice eligibility as a physician, I don't know. You'd better ask academic authorities in your medical school for further information.

That is the problem lukazo.

Everyone at my medical school here only knows about the NRMP/ERAS and ACGME residencies.

They have no idea about Canadian residencies.

This is why I was hoping someone who got a US M.D. and is now in Canada could shine some light on this situation for myself, and other people in my situation.

 

[MeowMix]

I think the current situation is that USMLE 1 & 2 are only good if you do your residency in the US and then apply to practice in Canada as a fully board-certified physician; then they consider USMLE = MCCEE etc. This is not true in all specialties, and you still have to do 1 yr supervised practice once you arrive in Canada. Also, if you are in EM, OB or other fields where Can residency is longer than US, you have to make up the difference in training.

If you want to do residency in Canada, as far as I know, you still have to take MCCQE/MCCEE.

It is very confusing and I recommend taking a deep breath and plowing your way through the CARMS website.

 

[FatKid]

Bump.

Anyone know about this?

 

[Giemsa]

http://carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_e.shtml

http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?id=2352 (Ontario ONLY)

First link:
Basic criteria. As a Canadian at a US school, you would be in the same stream as the rest of the Canadian grads. You MUST write the same exams as the Canadian grads, and, if osteopathic, you must write the MCCEE in time (e.g. to match in 2010, you need to have written the MCCEE in September or November of 2009). You must write all the exams that the Canadians write e.g. MCCQE I and II throughout your residency.

Second link:
See first link. If you were a fully-fledged board-certified US attending, you would be theoretically eligible to apply for a job in Ontario with only your steps (e.g. no MCCQEs), but see this discussion for further on that situation.

Chapter summary: USMLEs are NOT considered equivalent for Canadian residency.

 

[JPR22]

Ok the answer is very convoluted. To start residency in canada, you dont need any mcc's. The issue comes when youre writing the royal college exams. If you in family medicine, then usmles are ok. For specialties, it really depends, alot of times theyll just require MCCQE2. The problem is theres no written policy, and one has to contact the royal college examiner for their respective specialty. In my case US grad, canadian residency, they said take the MCC's, which is a huge money maker someone.

 

[Giemsa]

To start your residency in Canada as a Canadian who is NOT a Canadian grad, you MUST have passed the MCCEE* unless you are from a US allopathic school (osteopaths must write it). Then, in turn, you must have passed the MCCQE Part I (Canadian med students do it in May of our fourth year). You will do the MCCQE II along with your resident colleagues at the beginning of PGY-2. Everyone writes them, unless you are planning NOT to practice in Canada e.g. Gulf State nationals who train in Canadian residency programs then return home.

Then, as JPR pointed out, come the royal college exams.

Chapter summary: If you're in Canadian residency, do what all the other Canadian residents do. It's just safer.

* Obviously this doesn't apply to the OP; it's in there for completeness' sake.

 

[MontereyMD]

Basically

 

[Giemsa]

Nonetheless, do them.

 

[FatKid]

.

 

[FatKid]

To start your residency in Canada as a Canadian who is NOT a Canadian grad, you MUST have passed the MCCEE* unless you are from a US allopathic school (osteopaths must write it). Then, in turn, you must have passed the MCCQE Part I (Canadian med students do it in May of our fourth year). You will do the MCCQE II along with your resident colleagues at the beginning of PGY-2. Everyone writes them, unless you are planning NOT to practice in Canada e.g. Gulf State nationals who train in Canadian residency programs then return home.

Then, as JPR pointed out, come the royal college exams.

Chapter summary: If you're in Canadian residency, do what all the other Canadian residents do. It's just safer.

* Obviously this doesn't apply to the OP; it's in there for completeness' sake.

Giemsa,

Are you able to take the MCCQE Part I while you are in fourth year of medical school? Or, do you have to wait until you get your M.D. before you can take it?

Thanks,

FatKid

 

[Giemsa]

Giemsa,

Are you able to take the MCCQE Part I while you are in fourth year of medical school? Or, do you have to wait until you get your M.D. before you can take it?

Thanks,

FatKid

Yes you can take it in your fourth year.

All students in Canadian med schools do in in the spring (I think it was May). You just need to graduate by June 15th (see all the gory details here).

 

[FatKid]

Yes you can take it in your fourth year.

All students in Canadian med schools do in in the spring (I think it was May). You just need to graduate by June 15th (see all the gory details here).

Hello Giemsa,

Thanks for your quick reply.

It seems that you can only take the MCCQE Part I in the Spring of M4 and not at the beginning of M4.

In terms of applications via CaRMS, does it work just like the US?

Here in the US through ERAS, in our M4 year, I believe we apply to both internships and residencies. So, you are basically applying for residency (R2) two years in advance during your M4 year.

Is that how it works in Canada?

For example, let's say I want to do Neurosurgery, can I apply to internship in the U.S., and then Neurosurgery in both the U.S. and Canada?

Do I have to do my internship year in Canada if I want to do residency in Canada?

Can I do my intern year in the U.S. and then head to Canada for R2/PGY-2 and onward?

What I do not want to happen is I find out that I get accepted to an intern year in Canada, get removed from the U.S. match and do not get accepted to neurosurgery residency in Canada.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Giemsa]

Hello Giemsa,

Here in the US through ERAS, in our M4 year, I believe we apply to both internships and residencies. So, you are basically applying for residency (R2) two years in advance during your M4 year.

Is that how it works in Canada?

Let's say you were graduating in 2010, and wanted to be part of the 2010 CaRMS match. The site opens in August of 2009 (i.e. now) and the timetable is here. You start your application for residency about a year before you graduate, and do interviews that winter (e.g. about six months ahead or so).

There is no internship positions as such. If you match to rads, you match to rads. End of story. There's no second match after your PGY-1 year. If you match to family, you match to family. You want to do neurosurgery, then you will apply directly to neurosurgery. If you get the match in Canada, then you've got it.

The CaRMS match happens first (so I understand) so you could apply for neurosurgery in Canada and as well as in the US. If you don't match in Canada, you will remain in the US match, and could match there. But if you match in Canada, you are automatically withdrawn from the US match - so don't go ranking a bunch of stuff in CaRMS that you don't really want, because you will be stuck with it if you match to it!

For example, let's say I want to do Neurosurgery, can I apply to internship in the U.S., and then Neurosurgery in both the U.S. and Canada?

This won't work well, because the CaRMS match is only for grads WITHOUT any prior post-graduate (e.g. residency) training. If you do your internship year in the US, you won't be eligible to participate in the first round CaRMS match. And there's not a whole lot left by the second round.

What I do not want to happen is I find out that I get accepted to an intern year in Canada, get removed from the U.S. match and do not get accepted to neurosurgery residency in Canada.

Fortunately, this isn't going to happen. If you ONLY put neurosurgery on your CaRMS rank list, if you match then you will definitely match to neurosurgery. And if you don't match, you can then go on to match to the US and try to get neurosurgery from there.

This is probably your best bet - and it even works because the CaRMS match is before the US match.

Best advice: do some electives in Canada with the neurosurg departments where you'd like to match. Electives (e.g. their recognizing your name, remembering your face, "Oh, him, that guy did a good job" & great LOR are the keys to getting residency in Canada).

 

[FatKid]

Let's say you were graduating in 2010, and wanted to be part of the 2010 CaRMS match. The site opens in August of 2009 (i.e. now) and the timetable is here. You start your application for residency about a year before you graduate, and do interviews that winter (e.g. about six months ahead or so).

There is no internship positions as such. If you match to rads, you match to rads. End of story. There's no second match after your PGY-1 year. If you match to family, you match to family. You want to do neurosurgery, then you will apply directly to neurosurgery. If you get the match in Canada, then you've got it.

The CaRMS match happens first (so I understand) so you could apply for neurosurgery in Canada and as well as in the US. If you don't match in Canada, you will remain in the US match, and could match there. But if you match in Canada, you are automatically withdrawn from the US match - so don't go ranking a bunch of stuff in CaRMS that you don't really want, because you will be stuck with it if you match to it!



This won't work well, because the CaRMS match is only for grads WITHOUT any prior post-graduate (e.g. residency) training. If you do your internship year in the US, you won't be eligible to participate in the first round CaRMS match. And there's not a whole lot left by the second round.



Fortunately, this isn't going to happen. If you ONLY put neurosurgery on your CaRMS rank list, if you match then you will definitely match to neurosurgery. And if you don't match, you can then go on to match to the US and try to get neurosurgery from there.

This is probably your best bet - and it even works because the CaRMS match is before the US match.

Best advice: do some electives in Canada with the neurosurg departments where you'd like to match. Electives (e.g. their recognizing your name, remembering your face, "Oh, him, that guy did a good job" & great LOR are the keys to getting residency in Canada).

Hi Giemsa,

Thanks for your reply.

It seems that you know even more than the people who work at CaRMS. I spoke to one of the people over the telephone today, and they said that I had to write the MCCEE even though I am a US M.D. student. I know for a fact that is wrong.

I just have a few more questions if you don't mind:

1. I should basically be doing the exact same thing as Canadian medical students do, correct? Since I am U.S. M.D. student, there is nothing extra I need to do?

2. When should I write my MCCQE Part I? Do I NEED to pass it in order to begin residency? What if I fail it? Can I start R1 if I fail the MCCQE Part I?

3. What do you mean by "rank" neurosurgery? For example, I am ONLY planning on applying to Neurosurgery in Canada. I won't be applying to any other residency programs other than Neurosurgery. I do not want to be accepted into anything in Canada but Neurosurgery.

Thanks!

 

[Giemsa]

Hi Giemsa,

Thanks for your reply.

It seems that you know even more than the people who work at CaRMS. I spoke to one of the people over the telephone today, and they said that I had to write the MCCEE even though I am a US M.D. student. I know for a fact that is wrong.

I just have a few more questions if you don't mind:

1. I should basically be doing the exact same thing as Canadian medical students do, correct? Since I am U.S. M.D. student, there is nothing extra I need to do?

You should be good. But keep a close eye on carms.ca; read the eligiblity requirements on a regular basis because you don't want to miss any changes.

2. When should I write my MCCQE Part I? Do I NEED to pass it in order to begin residency? What if I fail it? Can I start R1 if I fail the MCCQE Part I?

Probably best to write the spring exam (I think it's May) in your Med 4 year. Won't help your CaRMS application, because by that time you'll have already matched. But then you won't have to worry about doing it later on - you'll be busy enough with other stuff.

I don't know if you need it to begin residency (you don't need it to apply to CaRMS, but that's not the same thing) - that's a question to ask when you do your electives.

3. What do you mean by "rank" neurosurgery? For example, I am ONLY planning on applying to Neurosurgery in Canada. I won't be applying to any other residency programs other than Neurosurgery. I do not want to be accepted into anything in Canada but Neurosurgery.

When it comes time (see the CaRMS timetable) you will rank all the residency programs you would like to be a resident in, in order of your preference. DON'T RANK ANYTHING THAT YOU DON'T WANT. Let's say that you decide that you want to be a neurosurgery resident at either the U of T or UBC. You like Toronto, but UBC is much better, you think, so your rank order list would look like this:

#1 Neurosurgery UBC
#2 Neurosurgery U of T

Then somebody tells you that the average house price (2 bedroom single level detached) in greater Vancouver is $800K. So you decide that U of T is a better program. You can change your rank order list up until the deadline, and having done so, your list would look like this:

#1 Neurosurgery U of T
#2 Neurosurgery UBC

Then you suffer a traumatic head injury, and realize that although neurosurgery is pretty great, what would really make you happy is doing OBGYN. Although you think, "Gee, neurosurg would still be an OK job, I would much rather be an OBGYN. Sure, if I don't match to OBGYN, I will be a neurosurgeon." So you re-do your match order list:

#1 OBGYN U of T
#2 OBGYN UBC
#3 Neurosurgery U of T
#4 Neurosurgery UBC

Then the concussion wears off, and you re-do your rank order list again:

#1 Neurosurgery U of T
#2 Neurosurgery UBC

(Not to pick on the OBGYN people - it's just a love-it-or-hate-it specialty

You can rank as many programs as you like. There is a deadline after which you MUST submit your rank order list, and then you can no longer make any changes. As long as you don't rank anything else, you won't match to anything else. On the other hand, the fewer programs you rank the lower your chances of matching. It is, I understand, very, very similar to the ranking process in the US.

 

[FatKid]

Thanks Giemsa!

Your idea of doing a Canadian away rotation is a good one.

I am not sure if you can do this as credit from a U.S. M.D school?

I would think you could because I am LCME accredited?

Thanks again for all of your help. I greatly appreciate you taking the time.

FatKid

 

[PistolPete]

Giemsa, any idea on how competitive residencies such as radiology or emergency medicine in Canada view Canadian citizens who will be graduating from U.S. osteopathic medical schools? Is it pretty much impossible for a Canadian D.O. to match in Canada into anything other than FP, which I'm not interested in?

 

[Giemsa]

Thanks Giemsa!

Your idea of doing a Canadian away rotation is a good one.

I am not sure if you can do this as credit from a U.S. M.D school?

I would think you could because I am LCME accredited?

Thanks again for all of your help. I greatly appreciate you taking the time.

FatKid

Sorry - no idea! I know that Canadians in Caribbean schools do electives here (up to 12 weeks but NOT cores) but I really don't know anything about it.

 

[Giemsa]

Giemsa, any idea on how competitive residencies such as radiology or emergency medicine in Canada view Canadian citizens who will be graduating from U.S. osteopathic medical schools? Is it pretty much impossible for a Canadian D.O. to match in Canada into anything other than FP, which I'm not interested in?

Osteopathic is different from allopathic for the CaRMS match because osteopathic students from the US need to write and pass the MCCEE to apply. You need to know about this WAY ahead because to participate in the 2010 CaRMS match, you would need to have written and passed the MCCEE in September 2009 (November results are not guaranteed to be available for the first round matching).

Osteopathic students are at a disadvantage because, as of the last match, most provinces don't allow them to participate. However, the provinces that take the MOST students (Ontario and BC) do allow them to match in the first round (see the next paragraph); Alberta allows them in the second round.

The other question (that I don't know the answer to) is whether Canadian citizen US osteopathic students are in the non-IMG match, or participate in the IMG stream (the numbers in the IMG stream are much more dismal). Canadian citizen US allopathic students are NOT considered IMGs, but I don't know about Canadian US osteopathic grads. You will have to call CaRMS (they're NOT open on the weekends) and ask - post the answer when you find out!

Besides all that, I don't know how osteopaths are viewed by program directors. The key to matching in Canada is doing electives here and getting face time with the program director/attendings/residents. The program picks residents based on whether they worked hard and got strong LOR from other program directors/attendings that the program knows.

Your very best bet would be to try and talk to the program directors at the program you're interested in. Some of them will be too busy, but I bet that some of them would be willing to at least talk to you over the phone if you set up a meeting through their secretary. If you find somebody who's receptive, you can arrange electives there.