US Citizen, Australian Anaesthesia trained. ?US fellowship -> US employment

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AnotherGasMan

Anaesthetic Advanced Trainee Australia
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I am a US citizen (Dual Australian) currently in my 3rd of 4 years of Anaesthesia training in Australia. (Australian Med School graduate)
I'll finish my Anaesthesia training December 2022.

I'm interested in doing a fellowship in the USA 2023/2024 then continuing to work in the USA in anaesthesia.

Anyone have any advice or experience in doing this?

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Yes, apply for Anesthesia residency in the US. I know of several people who have tried to work in the US after working as attendings in Australia (one who even had a fellowship from a prestigious US institution) and all of them either were unable to work in the US or else went though residency again in the US.

if you are a well published academic anesthesiologist it is possible to do without going though residency again by joining an academic practice, but a difficult pathway:
 
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Multiple folks at my academic shop who came over from Australia as visiting faculty, took the USMLEs, got the visiting designation removed, no residency required.
 
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Multiple folks at my academic shop who came over from Australia as visiting faculty, took the USMLEs, got the visiting designation removed, no residency required.
Oh God. Then you would be stuck in academics. Where the nurses are some of the most toxic people in the hospital.
 
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I think anesthesiologist (anaesthetists) in Australia are very well respected as a profession. You may have greater job satisfaction there than America where you are just one cog in an assembly line.
 
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I am a US citizen (Dual Australian) currently in my 3rd of 4 years of Anaesthesia training in Australia. (Australian Med School graduate)
I'll finish my Anaesthesia training December 2022.

I'm interested in doing a fellowship in the USA 2023/2024 then continuing to work in the USA in anaesthesia.

Anyone have any advice or experience in doing this?
Why leave? :unsure:

Have you read this forum? Apparently, you're leaving the land of milk & honey for a land of COVID and CRNAs.
 
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I hear they can make a pretty nice chunk of change. So the only reason I can think of is to come here and make a pretty nice chunk of change and pay less taxes.
Personally I would stay put. I I’ve never really understood why people from other first world countries come to the US.
 
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Wait...why would you come to the land of CRNA's, uninsured patients, and the possibility of a complete implosion of physician compensation in exchange for the marginally better pay (for now) in the US? As long as I could move my parents out to Oz, I would give my left nut to do residency there. You don't have any idea how good you have it. Have you ever even shadowed in an American OR? If you did residency in AUS I imagine you went to med school there as well.

In my opinion there are 2 or 3 countries that are objectively better for physicians than the US...Australia is one of them. Probably 5-10 countries if you don't care about that juicy half million dollar American salary, but some of us do lol.
 
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Wait...why would you come to the land of CRNA's, uninsured patients, and the possibility of a complete implosion of physician compensation in exchange for the marginally better pay in the US? As long as I could move my parents out to Oz, I would give my left nut to do residency there. You don't have any idea how good you have it.

From a place that actually controlled covid, has decent pay and isn't actively trying to tear down physicians.
 
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I honestly think Australia or New Zealand would be my preference to practice over the USA. Canada would be third. The OP should do 1-2 fellowships then join the faculty at an academic center. He/She would nott need to repeat residency and would enter the alternate pathway. The fellowships would give you the "deal" you need to join as faculty (well qualified) and then stay on until you complete the alternate pathway. You will make less income than staying in Australia so I assume you have good reasons for wanting to live in the USA.
 
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Yeah, the thing I didn't mention is that all of the Aussies who come here basically say Australia is way better in every respect, from practice environment, to patient mix, to respect, to money.
 
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I honestly think Australia or New Zealand would be my preference to practice over the USA. Canada would be third. The OP should do 1-2 fellowships then join the faculty at an academic center. He/She would nott need to repeat residency and would enter the alternate pathway. The fellowships would give you the "deal" you need to join as faculty (well qualified) and then stay on until you complete the alternate pathway. You will make less income than staying in Australia so I assume you have good reasons for wanting to live in the USA.
Thanks. This option makes sense.

Next step to find the states/hospitals that are more amenable to this pathway.
 
Are your parents in the US since you are dual? Or did you fall in love with an American spouse? What is the income of PP Anesthesiologists in Australia?
Seems like he/she does not want to answer any questions about why
 
Are your parents in the US since you are dual? Or did you fall in love with an American spouse? What is the income of PP Anesthesiologists in Australia?

Father is from the USA, hence the dual citizenship.

My partner is Australian - currently working on a green card for her.

The income varies depending on employment - in a public hospital full time vs 100% private work vs a mixture of these. It is more than enough to live a very comfortable life in Australia.
If decisions were based on income then medicine certainly wouldn't have been my first choice of a vocation. My non medical friends earn significantly more than I do.
 
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Some academic institutions will sponsor a visiting professor license for you to work in a department as a professor (depends on state medical licensing laws). Your essentially tethered to that specific program for three years until you can get a independent medical license.

At that point you can then see if the program is willing to have you enter the ABA alternate pathway which will allow you to also get board certified, which takes four more years as a attending at the same institution.

At that point you will be board certified and licensed despite no residency in the US, allowing you to move around easily.

Its a bit of a longer route, taking usually 7-10 years+. But you work as an attending the whole time, so no re-training which is nice.
 
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Father is from the USA, hence the dual citizenship.

My partner is Australian - currently working on a green card for her.

The income varies depending on employment - in a public hospital full time vs 100% private work vs a mixture of these. It is more than enough to live a very comfortable life in Australia.
If decisions were based on income then medicine certainly wouldn't have been my first choice of a vocation. My non medical friends earn significantly more than I do.
I am a nosy person and gonna ask why then? What’s enticing about the US?
Have you lived here before?
I am just totally curious as I imagine OZ would be a fantastic place for an anesthesiologists.
 
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Yeah, the thing I didn't mention is that all of the Aussies who come here basically say Australia is way better in every respect, from practice environment, to patient mix, to respect, to money.
This. Several of my coresidents were from other countries and love to s**t all over the US. Seems people tend to come for higher pay or the illustrious “better training”, and are then disappointed when they are stuck in residency.
 
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I am a US citizen (Dual Australian) currently in my 3rd of 4 years of Anaesthesia training in Australia. (Australian Med School graduate)
I'll finish my Anaesthesia training December 2022.

I'm interested in doing a fellowship in the USA 2023/2024 then continuing to work in the USA in anaesthesia.

Anyone have any advice or experience in doing this?

Stay in Australia.

If you want to work for NAPA, Envision and get crapped on by CRNAs and techs, yelled at by surgical PAs, written up by circulating nurses for wearing a nonhospital approved N95 mask (when they didn't give any in the first place).... not to mention all the liability and medmal crap... then take the plunge here.
But my advice is don't come here.
 
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I am a US citizen (Dual Australian) currently in my 3rd of 4 years of Anaesthesia training in Australia. (Australian Med School graduate)
I'll finish my Anaesthesia training December 2022.

I'm interested in doing a fellowship in the USA 2023/2024 then continuing to work in the USA in anaesthesia.

Anyone have any advice or experience in doing this?
Try to work at an American hospital in the middle east- UAE, Bahrain, etc.- make bank and split time between there and Australia.
 
Maybe the grass is always greener but I’d love to work somewhere else than the good old USA. I hate to be one of those “sky is falling” types but all I’m being told is that we are going to be making less and less money for more and more work.
 
Thanks everyone for the advice on how to organise a fellowship in the US you've been most helpful.
 
Hey mate, I'm also a dual AUS-USA citizen and a Victorian trainee. Thanks for posting this thread as I found it both informative and hilarious. I've been trying to research feasibility of ACGME-accredited fellowships as an FMG. Some shops state they want an ECFMG cert, while others say they only accept graduates of US/CAN residency programs. From what I can read, there is an exception clause for cardiac fellowships where you can enter as an exceptional/academic candidate, but as of a few years ago nobody had yet managed to pull this off. Please do update us with any of your findings regarding this.

My plan is to travel to the US for fellowship and then return home to Australia afterwards. I can't believe what I'm reading about the state of play with midlevel providers in the US. I wonder how long until we follow suit?

For those wondering about income in Australia, an intern makes about $100,000, PGY2 ~ $115,000. Once you start on a training program it jumps to about $150,000-160,000 and goes up each year until peaking at about $200,000 when you are the equivalent of the senior resident. First year consultants (attendings) in totally public practice earn around $350-450k and do 1:1 cases (literally 1 reg and 1 consultant per theatre), full time PP around 600k to 1.2m depending on casemix and workload. This is in AUD and should be viewed in the context of our cost of living. Many anaesthetists do a combination of public and private work, and many comfortable work part-time.
 
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Hey mate, I'm also a dual AUS-USA citizen and a Victorian trainee. Thanks for posting this thread as I found it both informative and hilarious. I've been trying to research feasibility of ACGME-accredited fellowships as an FMG. Some shops state they want an ECFMG cert, while others say they only accept graduates of US/CAN residency programs. From what I can read, there is an exception clause for cardiac fellowships where you can enter as an exceptional/academic candidate, but as of a few years ago nobody had yet managed to pull this off. Please do update us with any of your findings regarding this.

My plan is to travel to the US for fellowship and then return home to Australia afterwards. I can't believe what I'm reading about the state of play with midlevel providers in the US. I wonder how long until we follow suit?

For those wondering about income in Australia, an intern makes about $100,000, PGY2 ~ $115,000. Once you start on a training program it jumps to about $150,000-160,000 and goes up each year until peaking at about $200,000 when you are the equivalent of the senior resident. First year consultants (attendings) in totally public practice earn around $350-450k and do 1:1 cases (literally 1 reg and 1 consultant per theatre), full time PP around 600k to 1.2m depending on casemix and workload. This is in AUD and should be viewed in the context of our cost of living. Many anaesthetists do a combination of public and private work, and many comfortable work part-time.
This is very surprising to me
 
Hey mate, I'm also a dual AUS-USA citizen and a Victorian trainee. Thanks for posting this thread as I found it both informative and hilarious. I've been trying to research feasibility of ACGME-accredited fellowships as an FMG. Some shops state they want an ECFMG cert, while others say they only accept graduates of US/CAN residency programs. From what I can read, there is an exception clause for cardiac fellowships where you can enter as an exceptional/academic candidate, but as of a few years ago nobody had yet managed to pull this off. Please do update us with any of your findings regarding this.

My plan is to travel to the US for fellowship and then return home to Australia afterwards. I can't believe what I'm reading about the state of play with midlevel providers in the US. I wonder how long until we follow suit?

For those wondering about income in Australia, an intern makes about $100,000, PGY2 ~ $115,000. Once you start on a training program it jumps to about $150,000-160,000 and goes up each year until peaking at about $200,000 when you are the equivalent of the senior resident. First year consultants (attendings) in totally public practice earn around $350-450k and do 1:1 cases (literally 1 reg and 1 consultant per theatre), full time PP around 600k to 1.2m depending on casemix and workload. This is in AUD and should be viewed in the context of our cost of living. Many anaesthetists do a combination of public and private work, and many comfortable work part-time.
Please explain to me why people would leave this wonderful land of milk and honey. Seriously. Ok, I need to make my way there. If I wasn't from a different country already, that is what I would totally do. How difficult is that I wonder.
And have you heard of the guns and violence of the US?
 
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Please explain to me why people would leave this wonderful land of milk and honey. Seriously. Ok, I need to make my way there. If I wasn't from a different country already, that is what I would totally do. How difficult is that I wonder.
And have you heard of the guns and violence of the US?


I’m sincerely interested in the answer too.

We also had almost 50x the Covid death rate of Australia in the past year. 1 in 600 Americans have died of COVID compared to 1 in 28000 Australians.
 
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Hey mate, I'm also a dual AUS-USA citizen and a Victorian trainee. Thanks for posting this thread as I found it both informative and hilarious. I've been trying to research feasibility of ACGME-accredited fellowships as an FMG. Some shops state they want an ECFMG cert, while others say they only accept graduates of US/CAN residency programs. From what I can read, there is an exception clause for cardiac fellowships where you can enter as an exceptional/academic candidate, but as of a few years ago nobody had yet managed to pull this off. Please do update us with any of your findings regarding this.

My plan is to travel to the US for fellowship and then return home to Australia afterwards. I can't believe what I'm reading about the state of play with midlevel providers in the US. I wonder how long until we follow suit?

For those wondering about income in Australia, an intern makes about $100,000, PGY2 ~ $115,000. Once you start on a training program it jumps to about $150,000-160,000 and goes up each year until peaking at about $200,000 when you are the equivalent of the senior resident. First year consultants (attendings) in totally public practice earn around $350-450k and do 1:1 cases (literally 1 reg and 1 consultant per theatre), full time PP around 600k to 1.2m depending on casemix and workload. This is in AUD and should be viewed in the context of our cost of living. Many anaesthetists do a combination of public and private work, and many comfortable work part-time.
If this is all true I'm going to say a lot of us would have gladly moved and gone through the Australian training system. I suspect I'm a bit jaded at this point, but I feel like there must be some catch. Your description is exponentially better than the current US training system, assuming similar hours. Maybe that's why it's a well kept secret?
 
If this is all true I'm going to say a lot of us would have gladly moved and gone through the Australian training system. I suspect I'm a bit jaded at this point, but I feel like there must be some catch. Your description is exponentially better than the current US training system, assuming similar hours. Maybe that's why it's a well kept secret?

and without the crushing med school debt
 
For reference, the trainee salaries are pretty close to the same (100K AUD roughly equals 70K USD). 400K attending salary is about 300K in USD, with high COL as was mentioned. Not saying that the practice environment doesn’t sound great, just pointing out that the money isn’t really that much different
 
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For reference, the trainee salaries are pretty close to the same (100K AUD roughly equals 70K USD). 400K attending salary is about 300K in USD, with high COL as was mentioned. Not saying that the practice environment doesn’t sound great, just pointing out that the money isn’t really that much different
Yeah. I was going to chime in an say those numbers had to be AUD.
 
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Good points re: COL. When I was working at a big University-affiliated hospital in Melbourne my rent was 750/week for a 2br terrace. The thing is, under our enterprise agreements, we get paid slightly more in rural/regional areas. So ATM I'm paying 300/week for a 3 br house with front and back yards within walking distance of my hospital but still making the 160+ that all residents my level make regardless of COL.

The money is potentially not that different comparing like for like as some say. But let me tell you, you guys get throttled on hours (and we are paid hourly rates). My hours as an intern would have exceeded 60 maybe a handful of weeks in the year. Certain rotations you're protected at 38 hours/week (eg ICU, ED). In anaesthesia as a trainee it's 86 hours / fortnight with some rare overtime. 5 weeks paid leave, 1 week paid conference leave, 5-6 days paid exam leave every year. The last 2 years I worked so little that I locumed as an ED doc and made an extra 50-75k p.a..

Student debt for MBBS/BSc (7 yrs) was about 75k with no interest, paid at a rate of 3% annual income if earning >100k. You only start to repay it once you earn above an income threshold (about 50,000).

I love America and I loved my time living in the rural midwest as a middle schooler, but I'm sometimes appalled at the training conditions for doctors, especially rate of pay of a senior reg vs. midlevel working half the hours.

The last thing to chime in about income comparison is that you guys seem to access attending income after PGY4-5 (intern + 3 years of residency +/- 1 year additional fellowship), whereas the earliest one can start training here is PGY4 (I did intern, general resident, crit care resident years), and our training is 5+/-1 years so PGY9-10 we get the income leap. Even if after COL gets factored in we are similar, it would take us several years to catch up.
 
whereas the earliest one can start training here is PGY4 (I did intern, general resident, crit care resident years), and our training is 5+/-1 years so PGY9-10 we get the income leap. Even if after COL gets factored in we are similar, it would take us several years to catch up.
Just to correct here: Anaes entry requirements is PGY3, not 4. 1x intern year, 1x RMO.
 
For reference, the trainee salaries are pretty close to the same (100K AUD roughly equals 70K USD). 400K attending salary is about 300K in USD, with high COL as was mentioned. Not saying that the practice environment doesn’t sound great, just pointing out that the money isn’t really that much different
The only interns starting out at 70k are in NYC and maybe LA. Unless things have drastically changed in the past decade.
What is the equivalent of 1mil?
 
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Good points re: COL. When I was working at a big University-affiliated hospital in Melbourne my rent was 750/week for a 2br terrace. The thing is, under our enterprise agreements, we get paid slightly more in rural/regional areas. So ATM I'm paying 300/week for a 3 br house with front and back yards within walking distance of my hospital but still making the 160+ that all residents my level make regardless of COL.

The money is potentially not that different comparing like for like as some say. But let me tell you, you guys get throttled on hours (and we are paid hourly rates). My hours as an intern would have exceeded 60 maybe a handful of weeks in the year. Certain rotations you're protected at 38 hours/week (eg ICU, ED). In anaesthesia as a trainee it's 86 hours / fortnight with some rare overtime. 5 weeks paid leave, 1 week paid conference leave, 5-6 days paid exam leave every year. The last 2 years I worked so little that I locumed as an ED doc and made an extra 50-75k p.a..

Student debt for MBBS/BSc (7 yrs) was about 75k with no interest, paid at a rate of 3% annual income if earning >100k. You only start to repay it once you earn above an income threshold (about 50,000).

I love America and I loved my time living in the rural midwest as a middle schooler, but I'm sometimes appalled at the training conditions for doctors, especially rate of pay of a senior reg vs. midlevel working half the hours.

The last thing to chime in about income comparison is that you guys seem to access attending income after PGY4-5 (intern + 3 years of residency +/- 1 year additional fellowship), whereas the earliest one can start training here is PGY4 (I did intern, general resident, crit care resident years), and our training is 5+/-1 years so PGY9-10 we get the income leap. Even if after COL gets factored in we are similar, it would take us several years to catch up.
I would still take it. QOL is a lot more important to me than working your ass of for money money money. I am a lot happier in the ICU than the OR because I get treated way differently in the ICU than the OR. Way more respect.
 
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The only interns starting out at 70k are in NYC and maybe LA. Unless things have drastically changed in the past decade.
What is the equivalent of 1mil?
I'll be paid approximately $64k USD as a PGY5 with 3 weeks vacation. My normal hours in residency averaged ~70/week and fellowship has been more. Actual ACGME rules are 80 hours/week averaged over 4 weeks, so programs can exceed that weekly and schedule things such that the 4 week rolling average meets requirements. Also programs can still request an increase to a max of 88 hours/week which does happen in a handful of surgical programs. Nevermind that in med school I watched an entire surgical residency all claim to work exactly 80 hours/week b/c they had to stand up and publicly report their hours at surgical grand rounds each week...guess how many were reporting honestly...

It's interesting to learn how things could be done differently and still end up with good outcomes, at least it appears that way as an outsider looking in on the Australian medical system
 
OMG. That sucks for NYC. Was everyone else making 20k? Insane.
I made 41k about 13 years ago in NM of all places. But that was only because the union had come in and gotten us like a 6k raise.

It was a long time ago and I was financially very comfortable that year. Single, no kids, no car, and a subsidized studio in a hospital owned building in Chelsea for $600/month.
 
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It was a long time ago and I was financially very comfortable that year. Single, no kids, no car, and a subsidized studio in a hospital owned building in Chelsea for $600/month.
my favorite part of the city. Everything West of 6th and South of 23rd
 
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