Unprofessional vs personal style

[nitvbasgims12]

Hello! I am a female medical student and my school has fairly strict guidelines for professional behavior and, in particular, our professional outfits for our clinical skills or meetings. It is a very forward thinking school and highly values diversity but I am wondering to what extent that reaches and how patients may react to different grooming standards. Is it unprofessional for a woman to not shave her legs and wear an otherwise appropriate skirt or dress? Likewise, is it unprofessional to not wear a bra? I don't think I personally am bold enough to not shave my legs or forego a bra at these sessions but I was wondering if anyone had experience with these? While we are supposed to maintain a well-groomed appearance, men generally do not shave their legs (although this is generally not visible) nor do they generally wear bras. Do doctors have to sacrifice personal preferences for their appearance in order to maintain a "professional" appearance?

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[sloop]

I’m a dude, so I don’t fully understand how the bra thing works but it seems like a bad idea to not wear a bra. I guess it could be fine if your clothing fabric is thick enough, but many times this seems to result in a woman’s nipples being visible through their clothing. That is definitely not acceptable in a professional workplace, so if there’s any risk of that happening, I would say that’s a hard no. The shaving thing is less clear cut. That probably partly depends on how noticeable it is going to be. If you have coarse, dark, body hair and light skin, people are going to notice if you don’t shave your legs. Some of those people will have traditional views and find it off-putting.

In medicine, you generally never want your personal appearance undermine you. What this means is looking and dressing like people expect a doctor to look and dress. Whether you intend it or not, showing up regularly without a bra and with visible, unshaven legs is going to be perceived by a lot of people as sloppy and inattentive to details. Patients may feel that it is disrespectful. I just don’t think it’s worth it. There are better ways to express yourself than by going braless and having hairy legs.

 

[mvenus929]

This is a very weird question, but...

If guys don't shave their legs, it's usually not noticed because they wear pants that cover the skin on their legs. If a woman doesn't shave her legs but wears knee-length skirts without leggings, it's going to be noticed (unless the hair is fine and not significantly contrasting with skin color). Could a guy get away with wearing a knee-length skirt without leggings to clinic? That's an argument for the difference in acceptability of dress codes in men and women, but probably wouldn't go over well in a professional setting. So... if you don't want to shave your legs, don't, but wear something that will cover your legs (pants, long skirts, leggings, etc) and it won't be an issue. If the professional standards require that girls wear knee-length skirts, I would fight against that (just as I would if they required the guys to specifically wear a certain color of pants or ties, etc).

The bra issue, like sloop mentioned, is probably a matter of how much it'll be noticed.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I’m a dude, so I don’t fully understand how the bra thing works but it seems like a bad idea to not wear a bra. I guess it could be fine if your clothing fabric is thick enough, but many times this seems to result in a woman’s nipples being visible through their clothing. That is definitely not acceptable in a professional workplace, so if there’s any risk of that happening, I would say that’s a hard no. The shaving thing is less clear cut. That probably partly depends on how noticeable it is going to be. If you have coarse, dark, body hair and light skin, people are going to notice if you don’t shave your legs. Some of those people will have traditional views and find it off-putting.

In medicine, you generally never want your personal appearance undermine you. What this means is looking and dressing like people expect a doctor to look and dress. Whether you intend it or not, showing up regularly without a bra and with visible, unshaven legs is going to be perceived by a lot of people as sloppy and inattentive to details. Patients may feel that it is disrespectful. I just don’t think it’s worth it. There are better ways to express yourself than by going braless and having hairy legs.

Thanks for the imagery. I can see how either scenario is problematic. However, if combined does one cancel out the other?

 

[calivianya]

Another female here, and honestly idk why anyone is downvoting sloop - he’s 100% right. People are absolutely going to think that going braless and having hairy legs is sloppy. You may be able to get away with going braless if you are on the smaller side and you always wear your white coat over your shirt because the double layers will cover up the nipples and you won’t have any visible sag, but hairy legs in a skirt/dress is usually noticeable. It is the same ridiculous crap as the tattoo, hair color, and piercing rules a lot of places have.

Obviously it is all a load of BS because your personal style has no bearing on your abilities, but that’s just the way it is.

Save it for when you’re an attending. I personally would not test the waters as a med student or resident.

 

[deleted1100659]

Men don't wear a bra because there isnt any reason to wear one for a man. My understanding is a bra offers support and has a functional component. Why don't women wear ties? Those are torture. Also if woman has breasts on the larger side and shes walking around without any support I feel like that may be fairly noticeable.

As far as the shaving your legs part...I understand different cultures, different ideas about that and I personally wouldnt be offended by it or anything but if its not at least somewhat maintained, you may get odd stares. It would be the equivalent of me having facial hair that isnt at least somewhat groomed.

Ability matters more than appearance, and you don't have wear business high heels and a fancy suit, but I think its important for both genders to be presentable in how they appear with good hygiene. People make snap judgements based off appearance a lot of the time, and you want the patient to have your trust from the beginning, makes life a lot easier.

That being said, I refuse to ever wear a tie again.

 

[operaman]

I think much of this can be situational as well. Generally speaking, so long as it’s done tastefully it’s probably ok. There’s likely a huge regional factor as well - what’s acceptable in Portland may be less so in Alabama. I’m a guy and what I wear to work every day now would have definitely landed me unprofessional citations as a Med student in a conservative area and would be wildly unacceptable in many other such places even as an attending. But here it’s absolutely appropriate and what patients expect and how most every other doc here dresses.

Basically you want your professional attire to help you blend in with the other physicians and students in your area. That’s generally easier for guys simply because we tend to have a basic uniform with minimal variation. Women’s professional attire can be more variable, so just make sure your choices are about the same as most of the other women where you are.

 

[lumya]

I’m a woman and I have a tattoo on my arm. Before starting med school I worked in a corporate office. My personal interpretation of professional dress always errs on the side of conservative, and includes wearing long sleeves, even though I’ve worked in pretty casual and accepting settings. I really believe that 99.99% of the time, no one will have an issue with the fact I have a tattoo, but I would rather not let sometime like that prejudice someone into thinking I can’t do my job. In my old job, I only really covered up meeting clients I didn’t know, or had meetings with management - I knew my coworkers on the day to day didn’t care.

In the context of not shaving or wearing a bra, I think it’s fine to do so, but probably make adjustments (ie wearing longer skirts or high boots, or looser opaque tops) depending on the situation. Unfortunately there are a lot of societal standards and some people place more emphasis on those metrics. But it just depends on what hill you’re willing to die on. I would rather cover up and shave then have that distract from my abilities and have to defend my choices. For some individuals, they may emphasize their personal expression more.

 

[sloop]

Another female here, and honestly idk why anyone is downvoting sloop - he’s 100% right. People are absolutely going to think that going braless and having hairy legs is sloppy.

I just answered the question as honestly as I could. I don’t really care what people think about my response. I think it reflects the reality of the situation.

I’ll just add that I’m a forensic psychiatry fellow, so I’m coming at it from that perspective. If I’m going to testify in court, is “expressing myself” really worth how it might negatively impact the credibility of my testimony? No. It doesn’t really matter how unjust or unfair you think the standards are. You’re there to do a job, and I think that being a professional involves doing what you can to facilitate successfully doing your job. You can protest the societal standards on your free time, but when you’re at work you should focus on being effective.

While the impact of appearance may not be as great in non-forensic, clinical settings, I still think the same principles apply. Certain appearance and style choices will negatively impact your relationships with patients and colleagues. When you’re at work, effectively treating your patients is more important than your personal feelings about social standards of appearance. Period.

I’m not saying that there aren’t some sexist double standards or whatever. People might have legitimate cases for protesting those. I’m just saying that the hospital is not the appropriate place for those protests because it can impact patients’ health.

 

[Goro]

Hello! I am a female medical student and my school has fairly strict guidelines for professional behavior and, in particular, our professional outfits for our clinical skills or meetings. It is a very forward thinking school and highly values diversity but I am wondering to what extent that reaches and how patients may react to different grooming standards. Is it unprofessional for a woman to not shave her legs and wear an otherwise appropriate skirt or dress? Likewise, is it unprofessional to not wear a bra? I don't think I personally am bold enough to not shave my legs or forego a bra at these sessions but I was wondering if anyone had experience with these? While we are supposed to maintain a well-groomed appearance, men generally do not shave their legs (although this is generally not visible) nor do they generally wear bras. Do doctors have to sacrifice personal preferences for their appearance in order to maintain a "professional" appearance?

Doctors, like actors/actresses, have to go into character. And means you gotta wear the uniform that says "trust me".

There are times where you can express yourself, and there are times where that's a bad idea to do so.

 

[Redpancreas]

Hello! I am a female medical student and my school has fairly strict guidelines for professional behavior and, in particular, our professional outfits for our clinical skills or meetings. It is a very forward thinking school and highly values diversity but I am wondering to what extent that reaches and how patients may react to different grooming standards. Is it unprofessional for a woman to not shave her legs and wear an otherwise appropriate skirt or dress? Likewise, is it unprofessional to not wear a bra? I don't think I personally am bold enough to not shave my legs or forego a bra at these sessions but I was wondering if anyone had experience with these? While we are supposed to maintain a well-groomed appearance, men generally do not shave their legs (although this is generally not visible) nor do they generally wear bras. Do doctors have to sacrifice personal preferences for their appearance in order to maintain a "professional" appearance?

So as a male I am not going to lecture women on what they should or shouldn't be wearing in terms of skirt lengths, bra +/-, and leg hair +/-. Frankly I don't care what women choose to do.

What I can advise if women are interested in the advice is to keep things professional, clean/hygienic, and with minimal distractions. For me, one thing I have to watch out for is my facial hair as on a busy month I can let it get out of control. There are men who do a better job maintaining a beard without looking messy because they care enough about maintaining a beard to groom it. It takes extra work, but they get to keep their beards. Similarly, for females who wish to maintain a no-bra option for comfort or short length dress style to look preppy/showcase figure or whatever, I'd imagine there's work-arounds and you can probably find ideas on TikTok, fashion magazines, etc.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Unkempt hair is gross and unprofessional. It doesn't matter where on the body it occurs, whose hair it is, or why you have it. Cover it up and if it can't easily be covered up (hair on your head or facial hair), make sure it's as neat and groomed as possible.

Leg hair is gross and unprofessional, cover it up. Looking like you've stuffed a shag rug down the front of your scrub top is gross and unprofessional, cover it up. Brush your hair and keep it out of your face. Trim your beard regularly. A massive unibrow is really distracting and tweezers are cheap, so take care of it. You shouldn't look like you have shrubbery growing out of your nose or ears. You get the idea.

Nobody wants to see their doctor's nipples ever, regardless of their gender or how much breast tissue they possess. Physicians should wear a bra/tank top/undershirt under thin clothing to avoid this. A bra isn’t strictly necessary, but if you have any bits that jiggle, consider some kind of compression garment - I know from experience that it’s not comfortable to run around all day without adequate support.

Everything I've said above applies to all men, women, and people of every gender permutation that exists on this planet.

 

[bGMx]

Unkempt hair is gross and unprofessional. It doesn't matter where on the body it occurs, whose hair it is, or why you have it. Cover it up and if it can't easily be covered up (hair on your head or facial hair), make sure it's as neat and groomed as possible.

Leg hair is gross and unprofessional, cover it up. Looking like you've stuffed a shag rug down the front of your scrub top is gross and unprofessional, cover it up. Brush your hair and keep it out of your face. Trim your beard regularly. A massive unibrow is really distracting and tweezers are cheap, so take care of it. You shouldn't look like you have shrubbery growing out of your nose or ears. You get the idea.

Nobody wants to see their doctor's nipples ever, regardless of their gender or how much breast tissue they possess. Physicians should wear a bra or some kind of tank top/undershirt under thin clothing. If you have lots of excess adipose tissue on your torso, consider wearing some kind of compression gear (could be a bra, could be some kind of performance-fabric top) so you're not jiggling around all day - but that's more of a comfort recommendation than anything else.

Everything I've said above applies to all men, women, and people of every gender permutation that exists on this planet.

While I may agree with some of what you said, it's imperative you get better at saying it, as a professional.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

While I may agree with some of what you said, it's imperative you get better at saying it, as a professional.

And I don't care one bit what you - a total stranger who is not my colleague, supervisor, or patient - thinks about how I'm communicating on an anonymous internet message board about a silly topic like physician body hair.

 

[Tenk]

For what it’s worth, I’ve never seen a hairy legged, braless female physician working in any hospital. Almost all of my female colleagues keep their appearance up better than the male ones. Not arguing right or wrong, just saying you’d stick out pretty dang noticeably.

 

[theendisnigh]

While I also don't particularly understand the "grossness" surrounding leg hair/axilla hair (especially considering the real pus-y stuff healthcare professionals see), you just have to be prepared for our oddly conservative society to judge you for it. As someone said, go ahead and do it as an attending, but if you are trying to not rub any conservative people you're trying to impress the wrong way, it may become a gray area for you.

 

[bGMx]

And I don't care one bit what you - a total stranger who is not my colleague, supervisor, or patient - thinks about how I'm communicating on an anonymous internet message board about a silly topic like physician body hair.

Describing someone's excess weight as "jiggling around all day" is an inconsiderate way to speak and think about people who "jiggle around all day", and the fact that your reasoning is "I don't know you and no one knows me and you're likely not someone who matters" speaks volumes, regardless of the subject because guess what: there are people on the other side of the screen you type into. I imagine this response coupled to your attitude on this matter will cause you to double down, and I hope that you don't for reasons of character.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Describing someone's excess weight as "jiggling around all day" is an inconsiderate way to speak and think about people who "jiggle around all day", and the fact that your reasoning is "I don't know you and no one knows me and you're likely not someone who matters" speaks volumes, regardless of the subject because guess what: there are people on the other side of the screen you type into. I imagine this response coupled to your attitude on this matter will cause you to double down, and I hope that you don't for reasons of character.

My message was intended to be a semi-lighthearted way of saying “Hey, if you have jiggly bits such as large breasts or similar, consider supportive garments for your own comfort. But no matter what undergarments you choose to wear, the minimal expectation is that your nipples are covered in a professional environment.” I based this advice on my personal experience as an owner of breasts, adipose tissue, and other jiggly bits, and I know what it’s like to be on your feet all day without proper support. But clearly that did not communicate, and I’ll own that. It was not in any way intended to be a dig at someone’s size or BMI, but I understand why I came across that way and I’ll edit my post accordingly.

I never said you don’t matter, and I don’t appreciate you assigning that sentiment to me. What I did say is that you know nothing about me, because you don’t. I don’t care what people who don’t know me think about me. You had the opportunity to disagree with me, and state what you eventually said here. But you didn’t. Instead of actually engaging with the content of my post, you chose instead, as a fellow M2, to lecture me on professionalism and inform me what it was “imperative” for me to do. I found that to be incredibly out of line and condescending and I told you so.

 

[FutureInternist]

Everyone, regardless of chest size, leg hair, etc should just wear scrubs.

I started a new job 2 weeks before COVID.
Got a “talking to” on my FIRST day about not wearing scrubs - eventhough 2 of the 4 docs that I met during interview were wearing them.
Cut to March and everyone is masked, capped and scrubbed… haven’t looked back since 😏

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Men don't wear a bra because there isnt any reason to wear one for a man.

Woah now, Kramer says otherwise:

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Woah now, Kramer says otherwise:

View attachment 345424

“A manssiere”

 

[TragicalDrFaust]

Hello! I am a female medical student and my school has fairly strict guidelines for professional behavior and, in particular, our professional outfits for our clinical skills or meetings. It is a very forward thinking school and highly values diversity but I am wondering to what extent that reaches and how patients may react to different grooming standards. Is it unprofessional for a woman to not shave her legs and wear an otherwise appropriate skirt or dress? Likewise, is it unprofessional to not wear a bra? I don't think I personally am bold enough to not shave my legs or forego a bra at these sessions but I was wondering if anyone had experience with these? While we are supposed to maintain a well-groomed appearance, men generally do not shave their legs (although this is generally not visible) nor do they generally wear bras. Do doctors have to sacrifice personal preferences for their appearance in order to maintain a "professional" appearance?

Am a queer feminist but do want to remind you that men and masc folks need to shave their face and wear other uncomfortable things like ties. Professional grooming is inconvenient for people of many genders.

Women face lots of extra hurdles in medicine but professional dress is not one of them in my view.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Am a queer feminist but do want to remind you that men and masc folks need to shave their face and wear other uncomfortable things like ties. Professional grooming is inconvenient for people of many genders.

Women face lots of extra hurdles in medicine but professional dress is not one of them in my view.

I’m glad you said this. Medicine is exceptionally forgiving when it comes to the appearance of women/feminine-presenting people. Patients typically don’t care if their female physician has gray hair, wrinkles, doesn’t wear makeup/nail polish/high heels or maintain a trendy hairstyle so long as she is clean, neat, and well-groomed.

Contrast that with the expectations of female attorneys, women in sales fields, women in creative fields among others. The (sexist but well documented) standards of female trial attorneys are that you show up in full makeup, dye your gray hair, maintain a youthful/trim appearance, keep up a news anchor blowout, and wear a skirt suit and heels every day. You are expected to do this because this is how you get juries to respect you and your client’s livelihood depends on this.

I’m incredibly grateful to be entering a field where I can just brush my hair, tie it up, throw on scrubs/sneakers and then just focus on my job.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

Am a queer feminist but do want to remind you that men and masc folks need to shave their face and wear other uncomfortable things like ties. Professional grooming is inconvenient for people of many genders.

I'm an MD/PhD student, so it's been a while since I've had meaningful clinical experience, but I know quite a few doctors with beards, even today. Personally, I would look like a 22 year old without a beard, and I hope for my own sake that short, trimmed beards remain socially acceptable in medicine.

I know there are complications with fit tests on N95s. Does anyone know the extent of shaving requirements these days. I know plenty of attendings still donning beards, but I wonder if this is still acceptable in anesthesiology, surgery, inpatient vs outpatient, etc...

 

[TragicalDrFaust]

I'm an MD/PhD student, so it's been a while since I've had meaningful clinical experience, but I know quite a few doctors with beards, even today. Personally, I would look like a 22 year old without a beard, and I hope for my own sake that short, trimmed beards remain socially acceptable in medicine.

I know there are complications with fit tests on N95s. Does anyone know the extent of shaving requirements these days. I know plenty of attendings still donning beards, but I wonder if this is still acceptable in anesthesiology, surgery, inpatient vs outpatient, etc...

I don’t have facial hair but I’ve been led to believe that beard care requires time and products on a daily basis. My point being that almost none of us can just roll out of bed and look professional. I’ve definitely been guilty of thinking “guys have it easier” but after seeing everyone let their beards grow out and not using product in their hair as they crank up the heat on us (currently second yr) I realized y’all can look rough too lol.

My only major qualm in gendered professional appearance is heels but as Ms Snakehole points out, those are more expected in other professions: finance, law, sales etc.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Does anyone know the extent of shaving requirements these days. I know plenty of attendings still donning beards, but I wonder if this is still acceptable in anesthesiology, surgery, inpatient vs outpatient, etc...

90% of the men in my surgery program have facial hair of some sort. As long as you keep it neat and well trimmed no one cares, even when most of the older attendings are from the clean shaven “IBM” era.

 

[deleted1100659]

Am a queer feminist but do want to remind you that men and masc folks need to shave their face and wear other uncomfortable things like ties. Professional grooming is inconvenient for people of many genders.

Women face lots of extra hurdles in medicine but professional dress is not one of them in my view.

yes and ties suck so bad. When i was in a residency the chair made residents wear ties for nearly every rotation...now that im an attending first thing I did was prompty get rid of all my ties

 

[shotgunlagoon]

For what it’s worth, I’ve never seen a hairy legged, braless female physician working in any hospital. Almost all of my female colleagues keep their appearance up better than the male ones. Not arguing right or wrong, just saying you’d stick out pretty dang noticeably.

Well that's a little discouraging to me as a hairy-legged, braless person who usually presents somewhat feminine.... I have weird sensitivities about the sensation of clothes, and bras are completely unbearable for me.

 

[chicken adobo]

Do doctors have to sacrifice personal preferences for their appearance in order to maintain a "professional" appearance?

OP, is your intention to ask “is this considered unprofessional?” or “logically, should this be considered unprofessional?”

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The issue the OP is asking about is "culture". There's nothing inherently unprofessional about unshaven legs. But as a society we have defined what we consider professional appearance. There is going to be wide variation in what's allowed and not by employer, and mores change over time. A good example is tattoos -- they used to be an absolute no in healthcare, and now most sites will allow "tasteful" tattoos that are not distracting (so there is probably no tasteful facial tattoo). Even dress varies widely -- the Mayo is famous for "suits for male docs at all times", where other sites will be much more lenient.

So there's no way to really know until you interview or get to a place. Although things might get a bit easier once you're out of training, unless you open a private practice your employer may still enforce a professional grooming code. As mentioned, no one is going to notice / care if you wear a bra if you wear tops that don't make it obvious, and if you wear pants / leggings no one will know / care about leg hair.

Personally, I can't stand ear gauges. I realize there's nothing logical about this. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. Except they're wrong.

 

[TragicalDrFaust]

Well that's a little discouraging to me as a hairy-legged, braless person who usually presents somewhat feminine.... I have weird sensitivities about the sensation of clothes, and bras are completely unbearable for me.

In most business professional attire, legs aren’t visible anyway. I’m a woman and I don’t shave either but no one knows under opaque tights. It is sort of unfortunate about bras as a de facto requirement but all professional attire requires an undershirt to minimize the visibility of chest hair, nipples and body parts that move around under clothes (cis men also have some of these and it is also noticeable and unprofessional if everything isn’t neatly held against the body).

Would you be amenable to wearing “runway tape”, a tight undershirt or a light binder? Also definitely recommend connecting with ppl online with a similar body type bc they might be able to recommend bras or undergarments that feel right, if you haven’t already. Personally I‘ve “gotten away” with going braless by wearing a suit jacket/white coat.

 

[NickNaylor]

Whether or not something is "unprofessional" is a bit of a subjective assessment. Some people may have very loose definitions of what constitutes "professional" conduct/dress while others may have a more conservative view. You might get different opinions about this from anyone that you ask.

I think the more useful thing to think about is what is socially expected of you as a clinician. You may disagree with what those expectations are, rant about the patriarchy, say that it doesn't matter and doesn't reflect your ability to take care of patients, etc., but at the end of the day, if there is a social expectation that you present yourself in a certain way and you choose not to, then others may view you negatively. Maybe that's worth it to you to "be your true self." Maybe you don't want to work with patients or other staff that have a problem with you not shaving your legs or not wearing a bra if you're a woman. Certainly, that's your choice, and you have the right to conduct yourself however you want to conduct yourself. But understand that people will respond to your choices and behavior. In professional settings, striving to be as "agreeable" as possible is generally a good approach, and you have to pick the situations in which you are deliberately "disagreeable" carefully.

As an attending, I would mention any concerns about personal hygiene or your ability to present yourself as would be expected in a clinical setting. Not because I particularly care, but because many patients do care, and the simple fact is that how you present yourself can strongly influence how you are perceived. If someone perceives you as being unable or unwilling to maintain what has become a socially expected norm, how do you think that might affect their ability to trust you and work with you in a clinical relationship? Maybe it wouldn't at all, but at least in my neck of the woods, it's not at all difficult to imagine that many patients would find things like not wearing a bra and not shaving your legs as unprofessional.

 

[Dr G Oogle]

I'm an MD/PhD student, so it's been a while since I've had meaningful clinical experience, but I know quite a few doctors with beards, even today. Personally, I would look like a 22 year old without a beard, and I hope for my own sake that short, trimmed beards remain socially acceptable in medicine.

I know there are complications with fit tests on N95s. Does anyone know the extent of shaving requirements these days. I know plenty of attendings still donning beards, but I wonder if this is still acceptable in anesthesiology, surgery, inpatient vs outpatient, etc...

I’ve had a beard since my sophomore year in college ranging from 5 o’clock
Shadow of to an Instagram influencer from Portland; I’ve found that the optimal length to facilitate professionalism is something you’d grow after not shaving in Movember

 

[shotgunlagoon]

In most business professional attire, legs aren’t visible anyway. I’m a woman and I don’t shave either but no one knows under opaque tights. It is sort of unfortunate about bras as a de facto requirement but all professional attire requires an undershirt to minimize the visibility of chest hair, nipples and body parts that move around under clothes (cis men also have some of these and it is also noticeable and unprofessional if everything isn’t neatly held against the body).

Would you be amenable to wearing “runway tape”, a tight undershirt or a light binder? Also definitely recommend connecting with ppl online with a similar body type bc they might be able to recommend bras or undergarments that feel right, if you haven’t already. Personally I‘ve “gotten away” with going braless by wearing a suit jacket/white coat.

I wear an undershirt, usually a tank top, and I've been happy with that. My leg hair is also very light and sparse, but I'd be fine wearing tights or long pants. Thank you for the tips. I have one of those adhesive cups for situations where I have absolutely no choice, but I'd prefer to continue with tank tops whenever possible.

 

[deleted1100659]

Another perspective people should consider: look at it from the patient's point of view. They're presenting to you in need of help, being told you're a professional and at the top of the intellect ladder. Now imagine they see someone who is poorly dressed, questionable hygiene, unkept, messy body hair, etc. What are they supposed to think, "if you can't take care of yourself, how can you take care of me?".

Imagine you go to a restauraunt and see the cook with dirt under their fingernails, body hair everywhere, unprofessional attire, etc. You're going to make mental judgements, its human nature.

The reality is we all do this field, knowning there are personal sacrifices to be made, and in the grand scheme of things this isnt a big sacrifice to make. Lead by example, we can't tell our patients to live a better life when we look like we got hit by a bus on the way over here.

 

[shotgunlagoon]

Another perspective people should consider: look at it from the patient's point of view. They're presenting to you in need of help, being told you're a professional and at the top of the intellect ladder. Now imagine they see someone who is poorly dressed, questionable hygiene, unkept, messy body hair, etc. What are they supposed to think, "if you can't take care of yourself, how can you take care of me?".

Imagine you go to a restauraunt and see the cook with dirt under their fingernails, body hair everywhere, unprofessional attire, etc. You're going to make mental judgements, its human nature.

The reality is we all do this field, knowning there are personal sacrifices to be made, and in the grand scheme of things this isnt a big sacrifice to make. Lead by example, we can't tell our patients to live a better life when we look like we got hit by a bus on the way over here.

Okay but like hairy arms on the cook aren't going to upset me the same way that dirty fingernails would. Dirty fingernails are a sign of disregard for hygiene for a cook. Hairy arms tell me the dude grows hair on his arms. False equivalence, you know?

"Living a better life" doesn't mean waxing all your body hair off and getting a manicure once a month to me. I don't need my doctor to look like a runway model. If she's wearing clean, well-fitting clothes and is fairly well groomed, I'm not going to look too much further. Unibrow? That's fine by me, ma'am, props to you on having the confidence to rock your natural eyebrows. No makeup? Also fine. Gray hairs? That's okay.

I just feel like you're putting several very different things in the same category, is all.

 

[ortnakas]

To OP & @shotgunlagoon: surely you can find attire that looks reasonably professional without compromising your personal comfort. At least not more than necessary: nothing’s as comfy as a tank top and yoga pants but hardly anybody gets to wear that to work. Nobody’s saying you needed to be all dolled up in heels, a skirt and curls if that’s not you. But dress pants (slacks or khakis) and a nice button down shirt isn’t unreasonable. If you pick the right shirt, you can maybe get away with no bra (or pick a comfy sports bra). And scrubs months, you’re golden.

And while medicine is pickier, it’s not just medicine. Pretty much every job has a dress code with some professionalism standards.

 

[deleted1100659]

Okay but like hairy arms on the cook aren't going to upset me the same way that dirty fingernails would. Dirty fingernails are a sign of disregard for hygiene for a cook. Hairy arms tell me the dude grows hair on his arms. False equivalence, you know?

"Living a better life" doesn't mean waxing all your body hair off and getting a manicure once a month to me. I don't need my doctor to look like a runway model. If she's wearing clean, well-fitting clothes and is fairly well groomed, I'm not going to look too much further. Unibrow? That's fine by me, ma'am, props to you on having the confidence to rock your natural eyebrows. No makeup? Also fine. Gray hairs? That's okay.

I just feel like you're putting several very different things in the same category, is all.

i didnt say anything about being a runway model, being hairless, etc though. I just said having good hygiene and giving the appearance you take reasonable care of yourself.

You have to keep in mind, its not about what your notions of an acceptable appearance are. Its your patient's notions. And they may be harder to please. You want to gain their trust and build a therapeutic alliance.

 

[TragicalDrFaust]

I wear an undershirt, usually a tank top, and I've been happy with that. My leg hair is also very light and sparse, but I'd be fine wearing tights or long pants. Thank you for the tips. I have one of those adhesive cups for situations where I have absolutely no choice, but I'd prefer to continue with tank tops whenever possible.

You’re probably good to go then. I think people may have the logical fallacy that because when they notice leg hair or lack of undergarments, it’s unprofessional and therefore ALL instances of leg hair and lack of undergarments are unprofessional. When it’s possible that they’re noticing only the most egregious cases and there are lots of people who don’t remove body hair or wear certain undergarments but when it’s not noticeable it’s not a problem.

Perhaps the best thing to do is solicit opinions from trusted mentors or peers about if one’s grooming or appearance could negatively impact a reasonable patient’s perception of one’s ability to follow social norms, which demonstrates empathy, judgement and attention to detail. Might be good advice for everyone, even people who think their grooming is fine. I know plenty of people with body odor, greasy hair, bad breath or who use strongly scented products that will be off putting to patients.

 

[Kokonaut]

I can empathize with norms as it relates to professionalism, both for men and women though admittedly more familiar with the guy-side of the equation. Yes, many of the standards are inherently conservative and laden with all sorts of frivolous, illogical assumptions about a person's competence and personal virtues. However, I like the analogy other people had as it relates to playing an actor. People have many expectations of doctors and those in white coats; when you're outside of that setting, you're freer to do as you please.

As a guy with long-hair I tried my best to ensure it is neat and out of the way - would I like to sport a goth side cut? Absolutely. Would I consider it imperative to express that in a professional setting? Negative, especially for something with possible profoundly miserable repercussions.

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

For what it’s worth, tank tops and undershirts “with support” such as built-in bras exist, without wiring. I can understand the latter being an uncomfortable experience for some women even if they’re wearing the correct bra size.

As for shaving your legs, I’m with everyone here that wearing opaque/dark stockings/pantyhose will work wonders if you’re feeling lazy about shaving your legs. I was a classical musician AND a fashion/beauty model previously, so I’m familiar with both the conservative and conventional perceptions that’s built into culture at various scales. In fact, as an artist, I did what I wanted to go against it - but not in the “burning my bra” or “not shaving my legs” sort of way. If I didn’t want to shave my legs, I just didn’t.

But no one wants to hire a model who doesn’t show up for her appearance, or a musician who doesn’t know they have to wear semi-formal/formal dress wear to a wedding. You have to dress your part.

Professional Appearance matters to the extent that it shows you’re serious about not letting anything deter your purpose for showing up today.

In medicine, in music, or in fashion and beauty, I’m not there to distract anyone from the job I’m contributing to. You do your best to know the brief, the client, or the patient, and you show up.

 

[deleted1100659]

For what it’s worth, tank tops and undershirts “with support” such as built-in bras exist, without wiring. I can understand the latter being an uncomfortable experience for some women even if they’re wearing the correct bra size.

As for shaving your legs, I’m with everyone here that wearing opaque/dark stockings/pantyhose will work wonders if you’re feeling lazy about shaving your legs. I was a classical musician AND a fashion/beauty model previously, so I’m familiar with both the conservative and conventional perceptions that’s built into culture at various scales. In fact, as an artist, I did what I wanted to go against it - but not in the “burning my bra” or “not shaving my legs” sort of way. If I didn’t want to shave my legs, I just didn’t.

But no one wants to hire a model who doesn’t show up for her appearance, or a musician who doesn’t know they have to wear semi-formal/formal dress wear to a wedding. You have to dress your part.

Professional Appearance matters to the extent that it shows you’re serious about not letting anything deter your purpose for showing up today.

In medicine, in music, or in fashion and beauty, I’m not there to distract anyone from the job I’m contributing to. You do your best to know the brief, the client, or the patient, and you show up.

classical musician and fashion model and now you're a doctor? now that is a CV that will get results, lol. My CV was so bland when I i was in medical school/premed compared to the current generation...

classic example, i usually wear polo shirt and dress pants but wore scrubs past couple days at my clinic due to be tired. Did I get comments? Yes, yes, I did.

 

[butidontwantto]

Well that's a little discouraging to me as a hairy-legged, braless person who usually presents somewhat feminine.... I have weird sensitivities about the sensation of clothes, and bras are completely unbearable for me.

I think as long as your tops are appropriately covering your chest (or you wear an undershirt or something) you should be fine. The whole breasts needing support/ don't want to show sag is a load of bunk, because the argument they're making with it is that the natural shape of a woman's breasts is by itself unprofessional, and any school that tries to tell a student that the shape of their body is unprofessional is really asking for a lawsuit (or at least a **** storm of bad PR).

 

[LunaOri]

I wear an undershirt, usually a tank top, and I've been happy with that. My leg hair is also very light and sparse, but I'd be fine wearing tights or long pants. Thank you for the tips. I have one of those adhesive cups for situations where I have absolutely no choice, but I'd prefer to continue with tank tops whenever possible.

I never wore a bra in medical school. Camisoles (especially those made with a “shelf” inside) provide plenty of coverage for small breasts.

 

[FutureInternist]

i didnt say anything about being a runway model, being hairless, etc though. I just said having good hygiene and giving the appearance you take reasonable care of yourself.

You have to keep in mind, its not about what your notions of an acceptable appearance are. Its your patient's notions. And they may be harder to please. You want to gain their trust and build a therapeutic alliance.

And the only way to change that is to ignore their “preferences”.

The mantra should be that everyone has passed boards and are licensed.

 

[KnuxNole]

Everyone, regardless of chest size, leg hair, etc should just wear scrubs.

I started a new job 2 weeks before COVID.
Got a “talking to” on my FIRST day about not wearing scrubs - eventhough 2 of the 4 docs that I met during interview were wearing them.
Cut to March and everyone is masked, capped and scrubbed… haven’t looked back since 😏

TBH that is a strange thing to have a "talking to" to someone about. Even post March 2020, I've never worn scrubs in the hospital. Currently, I finished inpatient rounds with dress shirt, pants and shoes...

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

classical musician and fashion model and now you're a doctor? now that is a CV that will get results, lol. My CV was so bland when I i was in medical school/premed compared to the current generation...

classic example, i usually wear polo shirt and dress pants but wore scrubs past couple days at my clinic due to be tired. Did I get comments? Yes, yes, I did.

Actually! I’m pre-med right now 😂 and I’m ready to explain my background in various things at any type of interview. Also I don’t know what students in my cohort will be like, but I’m not even 30 yet, so cue the laughter.

Let’s hope you’re right and I do get good results when I get to my 1st application cycle!

And well… We’ve all had to make shortcuts when choosing clothes last-minute and because it was a tough day/week. As long as you’re not in casual or home clothes, right 😂? Anyone could tell you were a doctor/you worked there based on your scrubs!

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Personally, I can't stand ear gauges. I realize there's nothing logical about this. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. Except they're wrong.

Oh really? Why is that? I'm all ears...

 

[nitvbasgims12]

Thank you for everyone's responses! I do occasionally shave my legs and I generally wear a bra in public. I don't particularly want anyone to notice my leg hair or braless state and I am by no means trying to make a statement, but I also don't actively try to cover them up in casual settings. Thank you for all the insight into professional grooming, I greatly appreciate it and recognize that patients may care one way or another.

 

[Iamnew2]

Hello! I am a female medical student and my school has fairly strict guidelines for professional behavior and, in particular, our professional outfits for our clinical skills or meetings. It is a very forward thinking school and highly values diversity but I am wondering to what extent that reaches and how patients may react to different grooming standards. Is it unprofessional for a woman to not shave her legs and wear an otherwise appropriate skirt or dress? Likewise, is it unprofessional to not wear a bra? I don't think I personally am bold enough to not shave my legs or forego a bra at these sessions but I was wondering if anyone had experience with these? While we are supposed to maintain a well-groomed appearance, men generally do not shave their legs (although this is generally not visible) nor do they generally wear bras. Do doctors have to sacrifice personal preferences for their appearance in order to maintain a "professional" appearance?

*Lady* doctor here. Being professional means just that - being professional. We can be independent, smart, outspoken, etc as women but trying to stand out for doing *unusual* things even as a woman would rub me the wrong way.
At home I say do whatever you want - you want to run braless with hairy legs? Sure. You will encounter all types of patients in a hospital/clinic setting - be mainstream.
You don't have to be obnoxious in trying to do things outside the norm to make a statement about how "woke" you are.
You will encounter many non-"woke" people in medicine - both patients and colleagues.
Even from a marketing/practice perspective, if I went to a female physician and she was unshaven I would think she has hygiene issues, and if she's not wearing a bra and her nipples are visible, I would think that's grossly unprofessional, no different than if a male doctor's penis was hanging out or somehow sticking out. I don't think that if I was unshaven, hairy and with my nipples sticking out many patients would want to see me.
Women in Medicine already have an uphill battle particularly in leadership positions - don't be the obnoxious PC med student that everyone rolls their eyes at.
*stand out* by being awesome - not by being obnoxious and trying to be in your face with others and your personal views. Medicine is not the setting to do so.
At home, in your personal life you can do what you please - but leave it there. No different than if you were in a legal environment, or an exceutive environment. Few things are more of a turn off professionally than women who think they should make themselves *seen* by annoying personal quirks. Just my 2 cents.