UNC ortho looks like a big sausage party?

[nug]

I was looking on their website and they have resident profiles; 18 residents and only 1 female. 17 dudes! What is up with that? Are a lot of ortho programs predominately male?

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[vorosvirag]

That may be an unexpected trend, or possibly UNC folks prefer males. Only Proffit et al know the real answer. They submit the rank lists.

You'll find other preferences at many schools. Many prefer some candidates from the South or from New England, for example. Other programs always take one or two people from the Middle East. Some, like BU, seem to only take internationals.

Ortho admissions is a very interesting process. Each director is biased and tends to go w/ those he/she likes.

 

[Jaybe]

I was looking on their website and they have resident profiles; 18 residents and only 1 female. 17 dudes! What is up with that? Are a lot of ortho programs predominately male?

Comment withheld. . .

 

[Firm]

By the time you get through 8 years of school most women want to focus on family. I wish there were more women in ortho. The energy is so combative when you have a bunch of egotistical dudes in a program.
As for the programs that take foreign trained students. I think this is total BS. They take students from international schools with grades that can't be verified over american students with good grades. Most of these FTD are complete idiots. They should at least have to go to an American dental school before getting accepted into a specialty program.

 

[Lexus]

...As for the programs that take foreign trained students. I think this is total BS. They take students from international schools with grades that can't be verified over american students with good grades. Most of these FTD are complete idiots. They should at least have to go to an American dental school before getting accepted into a specialty program.

oooohhh that's damn true, so ... you have the monopoly of knowledge in the US, right... I guess that FTD's will still have chance in every single program as long as there are Americans like you..

 

[Firm]

oooohhh that's damn true, so ... you have the monopoly of knowledge in the US, right... I guess that FTD's will still have chance in every single program as long as there are Americans like you..

All applicants should be judged by some similar standard. A candidate from a dental school in Mexico should not be taken over a top 15 american student.

 

[toofache32]

Where's my popcorn......

 

[WireBender2010]

By the time you get through 8 years of school most women want to focus on family. I wish there were more women in ortho. The energy is so combative when you have a bunch of egotistical dudes in a program.
As for the programs that take foreign trained students. I think this is total BS. They take students from international schools with grades that can't be verified over american students with good grades. Most of these FTD are complete idiots. They should at least have to go to an American dental school before getting accepted into a specialty program.

Most of the Ortho programs that I know of do require the following from FTDs-
Report from Educational Credential Evaulators - To make sure that the FTD has grades comparable to an US trained student.
Part 1 and Part 2 scores - To make sure that the FTD is as good as an US trained dentist based on standardized test scores.
As for your comment "Most of these FTD are complete idiots" - I think there is a problem with selection bias. Obviously most of the FTDs you know of are complete idiots. Out of the 8 FTDs that I know personally, all got matched to Ortho programs.... at Harvard, Columbia, OSU. My guess is that I happen to know FTDs who do not seem to be idiots.

WireBender2010

 

[Lexus]

All applicants should be judged by some similar standard. A candidate from a dental school in Mexico should not be taken over a top 15 american student.

you are right, technically it should be but its impossible even among US graduate. you can't be sure that "ranked 1st" in UCLA is better than "ranked 10" in UPENN.!

the show is over, you don't need popcorn

 

[loco81]

By the time you get through 8 years of school most women want to focus on family. I wish there were more women in ortho. The energy is so combative when you have a bunch of egotistical dudes in a program.
As for the programs that take foreign trained students. I think this is total BS. They take students from international schools with grades that can't be verified over american students with good grades. Most of these FTD are complete idiots. They should at least have to go to an American dental school before getting accepted into a specialty program.

so now you know my face , i would like to see yours and we shall let sdn members to vote who looks more idiot , I don't know whats your problem but I think that you should make better use of your language , I think that good modals and value is a life and family issue . So please just try to omit nasty and racist comments .Thanks

 

[Lexus]

Where's my popcorn......

Hell yea, the show has just begun.!

 

[Firm]

No racism here at all. I just believe that someone who has been "credentialed" as #1 in their class in mexico should not be accepted ahead of a top 15, 20, 50 candidate from america(#1 at UCLA or #10 at PENN should be better than #1 at Universidad de Mexico City). Just because you took NDBE 1 and 2 means absolutely nothing when you have unlimited time to study for this exam. They accept you to Columbia, Havard, and OSU because they assume that you are brilliant (since you studied 4 years to take part 1 and 2, and you have such great credentials from University of Afghanistan) You should at least be subject to rigor of an american or canadian dental school. Before you are accepted to such a highly coveted spot you should atleast show some worthiness.

 

[Jone]

I've seen you post numerous times on SDN and this is the first time I've seen something offensive come out of your mouth, so I'll just assume you've been drinking tonight

The program at my school reserves spots for foreigners because they pay upwards of triple the tuition that a US student does. They reserve these spots out of financial necessity. If the greedy alumni from our program would give back financially to the institution that trained them, then believe me, they would take all their residents from US schools.

No racism here at all. I just believe that someone who has been "credentialed" as #1 in their class in mexico should not be accepted ahead of a top 15, 20, 50 candidate from america(#1 at UCLA or #10 at PENN should be better than #1 at Universidad de Mexico City). Just because you took NDBE 1 and 2 means absolutely nothing when you have unlimited time to study for this exam. They accept you to Columbia, Havard, and OSU because they assume that you are brilliant (since you studied 4 years to take part 1 and 2, and you have such great credentials from University of Afghanistan) You should at least be subject to rigor of an american or canadian dental school. Before you are accepted to such a highly coveted spot you should atleast show some worthiness.

 

[Firm]

Not drunk, or trying to be offensive
Tell me that an american student would not love to pay triple tuition to get one of these spots. Most of the FTD go to 6 year dental schools out of high school. That's why they're 24/25 years old entering these residencies.
You know that neither you or I could go to another country and be accepted into their residency program without first repeating dental school.

 

[vorosvirag]

The program at my school reserves spots for foreigners because they pay upwards of triple the tuition that a US student does. They reserve these spots out of financial necessity. If the greedy alumni from our program would give back financially to the institution that trained them, then believe me, they would take all their residents from US schools.

This debate over foreign-trained students is pretty simple in my mind. For programs w/ very little American interest (Pros, Perio, Dental Public Health, and Oral Path) I encourage international students to apply. American dental school grads generally want nothing to do with these specialties. However, ortho, endo, and surgery have plenty of applicants. It's simple economics of supply and demand. The applicants also are willing to pay to attend residency. From what I understand, ortho residents at NYU (~$50K) and other places pay more than many international residents (I heard they pay ~40K at a certain ortho program). So, that argument can be eliminated.

I am familiar with a certain ortho program where the international students pay about 3x the amount for a ortho residency (~$40K vs. $14K). However, as I said, the U.S. applicants would pay the same if asked to do so. It's my observation that the director simply has an agenda to get extra $ and utilizes contacts in foreign countries to get that $. Foreign governments (in some cases at least) pay the tuition, so the foreign-trained students are eager as hell to come to the U.S.

The school I'm referring to does have a alumni problem. However, much of the problem relates to the director undermining the goodwill of the alumni by accepting international students instead of U.S. applicants. Alumni's own kids or other local products--highly qualified ones not *****s--are snubbed and kids from outside the U.S. are admitted. The trend has increased over the last few years to the point where the alumni appear less and less in clinic. Not healthy.

This is not racism. This is politics. American schools are primarily for American students. What's so hard to understand about that point? Diversity is important, but not for diversity's sake alone or to raise $. Plenty of Americans wish to be orthodontists. Why should someone from Paris, Melbourne, or Damascus have the ability to take an ortho spot in the U.S.? If they stay to work in academics or another area of need (again where Americans don't want to work) I mind this phenomenon less. It's when they bolt from U.S. ortho programs to private practice where I see the greatest abuse.

These international students don't get in on the Match--at least not at the school I've heard a lot about. They get accepted by the director (in many cases a person not originally from the U.S.) sometime in the Spring through some undefined process. Then, following their ortho training at this unnamed institution (and possibly at more than the one I've heard about) many of them stay in the U.S.

So, to summarize: international students get into U.S. programs outside the Match and eventually remain in the U.S. to practice ortho. That is not what I like to call an international program. It's a transition-into-the-U.S. program. The director pockets the cash and claims an inability to raise $ otherwise.

I can't think of a better investment (whether it's 3 or 20x the amount of tuition the U.S. kids pay). They stay in the states for an entire career w/ a huge return on investment.

Does anything like this happen in OMFS, Pedo, or Endo? Any non-Match spots handed out this way? I couldn't believe it when I heard it for the first time.

What is the % of foreign-trained dentists in ortho in the U.S.? I thought it was ~20%. To me, that seems pretty high. No wonder many guys I knew in dental school (all U.S. applicants) don't match. About 1 in 5 spots are taken by someone who trained elsewhere and wants to live in the U.S. Well, we want to live in the U.S. as orthodontists, too.

 

[capisce?]

People need to stop whining and just work that much harder to get into specialty programs. There will always be something...foreign grads, a director's son, preference to same school grads, backroom tugjobs....the point is, just get yourself to the point where those things dont' matter. Put in the time at school to get a top rank, and put in the time to rock the boards. That way, you don't have to think about those things because you overcame them. If you didn't, well, then you either didn't try hard enough in school/boards or you're not capable. Either way, just spare us the whining. I refused to kiss a$$ at the pedo dept for 4 years at my dental school. I wanted to know that if I got in somewhere, it was because I worked for it and not because some guru wrote me a LOR.

Besides, they can take all the foreign grads they want. All that means is more patients for me in the real world. That's not racist, but it's a fact of life. The general public likes to go to those they can identify with...these foreign trained dentists who can barely speak english won't be taking your patients, don't worry about that.

 

[cuneatus2]

you are right, technically it should be but its impossible even among US graduate. you can't be sure that "ranked 1st" in UCLA is better than "ranked 10" in UPENN.!

the show is over, you don't need popcorn

U

 

[Lexus]

Uhhh...yes you can.

Only if you can't see farther than your nose tip.

 

[Jaybe]

I am familiar with a certain ortho program where the international students pay about 3x the amount for a ortho residency (~$40K vs. $14K). However, as I said, the U.S. applicants would pay the same if asked to do so. It's my observation that the director simply has an agenda to get extra $ and utilizes contacts in foreign countries to get that $. Foreign governments (in some cases at least) pay the tuition, so the foreign-trained students are eager as hell to come to the U.S.

What is the % of foreign-trained dentists in ortho in the U.S.? I thought it was ~20%. To me, that seems pretty high. No wonder many guys I knew in dental school (all U.S. applicants) don't match. About 1 in 5 spots are taken by someone who trained elsewhere and wants to live in the U.S. Well, we want to live in the U.S. as orthodontists, too.

I think I interviewed at this unnamed program last year. I thought it was really weird that they were jumping through hoops, making international phone calls all year just to set up 'under the table' spots for a couple of FOBs. All this while TONS of overqualified US grads were trying to get in. But I have to admit, I really don't mind having FTDs around, as long as they are HOT (we'll get back to that in a moment).

Anyway, I really don't think that 20% of US dentists are foreign trained. How did you come up with that number? Maybe its just that we are in different parts of the country.

By the way, since this thread has meandered into the realm of "Foreigners", I want to invite you all to take part in a poll I posted in the International Forum. It would really help me out in a little research project I am working on. Thanks!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=406058

 

[S Files]

By the time you get through 8 years of school most women want to focus on family. I wish there were more women in ortho. The energy is so combative when you have a bunch of egotistical dudes in a program.
As for the programs that take foreign trained students. I think this is total BS. They take students from international schools with grades that can't be verified over american students with good grades. Most of these FTD are complete idiots. They should at least have to go to an American dental school before getting accepted into a specialty program.

obviously you're still bitter about having to resort to attending OEC....i would be too. blaming that on FTD?

Some FTD's are idiots, some are brilliant.

my school program seemed to accept one every few yrs. they always stayed in academia (whether they stay in academia for visa purposes or genuine interest i don't know). One (after 6 yrs of moving up the ranks) looks like he's poised to become director of postgrad in a few yrs. that seems to be a legit reason. i mean if we americans aren't taking up positions in academia what are the programs supposed to do. ideally programs would increase salary and benefits of ortho academics that should sway some of us to stay.

taking FTDs for $$$ reasons is ridiculous. it's obvious which programs do this and they should get their finances in order instead of relying on a FTD cash grab. i'm all for diversity and all that stuff, but 3 out of 4 acceptances going to FTD? that's a little out of control.

 

[S Files]

Not drunk, or trying to be offensive
Tell me that an american student would not love to pay triple tuition to get one of these spots. Most of the FTD go to 6 year dental schools out of high school. That's why they're 24/25 years old entering these residencies.
You know that neither you or I could go to another country and be accepted into their residency program without first repeating dental school.

it is true that they have more time to study.

FTDs i've seen entering specialties are older than 24/25...some are orthodontists in their own countries. some have practiced / done research.

i know someone who got accepted into a specialty program in the UK. and no he didn't have to repeat dental school there.

 

[Firm]

obviously you're still bitter about having to resort to attending OEC....i would be too. blaming that on FTD?

Some FTD's are idiots, some are brilliant.

my school program seemed to accept one every few yrs. they always stayed in academia (whether they stay in academia for visa purposes or genuine interest i don't know). One (after 6 yrs of moving up the ranks) looks like he's poised to become director of postgrad in a few yrs. that seems to be a legit reason. i mean if we americans aren't taking up positions in academia what are the programs supposed to do. ideally programs would increase salary and benefits of ortho academics that should sway some of us to stay.

taking FTDs for $$$ reasons is ridiculous. it's obvious which programs do this and they should get their finances in order instead of relying on a FTD cash grab. i'm all for diversity and all that stuff, but 3 out of 4 acceptances going to FTD? that's a little out of control.

Not bitter, I have my paper. I see a lot good students like Griffin04 wait to get in while FTD's are allowed to use their foreign dental schools to get into specialties. If they are FTD and trained in that specialty abroad that is completely different than someone going to dental school abroad, then being accepted into Ortho. You should atleast have to repeat something. As far as diversity, there are plenty of american minorities that they could accept. This especially bugs me when it's a state school that does this.

 

[dentistdentist]

to who ever who thinks that UNC ortho. prefers male residents- Its simply not true.
I know all faculty members there- chairperson is a woman, director of that program is a woman, influential columbia trained prof- is woman, some faculty members are foreign trained- women again- men are few and not as influential as women. Dr. proffit is prof. emeritus- women are in authority at UNC ortho. many candidates are interviewed and selection is based on credentials- irrespective of color, nationality or gender- they have foreign dentists there, african american residents, women profs, whites. Please- I know them- they select candidates based on credentials not gender, race or national origin. they are the warmest and the best people I have come across in America.

 

[vorosvirag]

I think I interviewed at this unnamed program last year. I thought it was really weird that they were jumping through hoops, making international phone calls all year just to set up 'under the table' spots for a couple of FOBs. All this while TONS of overqualified US grads were trying to get in. But I have to admit, I really don't mind having FTDs around, as long as they are HOT (we'll get back to that in a moment).

Anyway, I really don't think that 20% of US dentists are foreign trained. How did you come up with that number? Maybe its just that we are in different parts of the country.

By the way, since this thread has meandered into the realm of "Foreigners", I want to invite you all to take part in a poll I posted in the International Forum. It would really help me out in a little research project I am working on. Thanks!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=406058

I have no problem with FTDs. I've met many at various meetings. They're nice folks who've found an outstanding opportunity. My problem is with the gone-awry admissions process at certain U.S. ortho departments. The directors have turned the admissions process into a self-serving one. The Match is bad enough, but going non-Match to get $ and other favors to admit non-U.S. kids into ortho is insane. If it's pros or oral path (which few in this country care to do) it's one thing, but ortho? Come on! We've got more than enough applicants who are home grown.

I can't blame the kids who come. As much as some countries dislike us, many of their citizens (and dental grads) are anxious as hell to get here. Especially, if they can get into an ortho program and then even practice in the U.S. for $200,000+ a year. Who wouldn't leave Sao Paulo or Cairo to do so? I know I would.

My blame isn't on the FTD ortho residents. I place it squrely on the back of the directors who operate these transition-into-America ortho programs. They know who they are.

By the way, I wasn't suggesting 20% of U.S. dentists are foreign trained. I was referring to a figure of orthodontic resident positions occupied by non-U.S. folks (you can call them whatever is appropriate--international or FTD). I saw that number on a flyer put out by the ADA or someone relative to U.S. dental specialities.

 

[vorosvirag]

to who ever who thinks that UNC ortho. prefers male residents- Its simply not true.
I know all faculty members there- chairperson is a woman, director of that program is a woman, influential columbia trained prof- is woman, some faculty members are foreign trained- women again- men are few and not as influential as women. Dr. proffit is prof. emeritus- women are in authority at UNC ortho. many candidates are interviewed and selection is based on credentials- irrespective of color, nationality or gender- they have foreign dentists there, african american residents, women profs, whites. Please- I know them- they select candidates based on credentials not gender, race or national origin. they are the warmest and the best people I have come across in America.

Admission based on merit is the only way to go. UNC is a great school and should continue selecting the kids who it feels who do the best upon graduation. To select based on other criteria (all the stuff you listed above) is not right. Sadly, many admissions committees are derailed.

 

[vorosvirag]

Not bitter, I have my paper. I see a lot good students like Griffin04 wait to get in while FTD's are allowed to use their foreign dental schools to get into specialties. If they are FTD and trained in that specialty abroad that is completely different than someone going to dental school abroad, then being accepted into Ortho. You should atleast have to repeat something. As far as diversity, there are plenty of american minorities that they could accept. This especially bugs me when it's a state school that does this.

Firm,

Though we never saw eye to eye on OEC, we've at least got a few points we can agree on here. If we have no shortage of qualified kids applying to U.S. programs--ortho or whatever it might be--selling out should not be considered. The U.S. kids would pay the extra $. Securing spots for FTDs whose only goal is to make U.S. private-practice $ is unbelievable. Some bypass the Match, stay in the U.S. long enough to get their paperwork, and then move to Phoenix or elsewhere.

Again, these FTDs turned U.S. ortho residnets have very natural impulses driving them to do this. It's the directors who operate these now-systematic arrangements who are responsible. Yet, something tells me these directors don't care. In fact, they know exactly what they're doing. All the U.S. kids who don't match don't bother them.

Capisce?, I'm all for working hard. We all do that. But if ~20% (someone should verify that) of the ortho residency spots are taken by someone other than U.S. applicants, I'd argue that regardless of how hard quite a few U.S. kids work 20% of the spots won't go to them.

 

[vorosvirag]

obviously you're still bitter about having to resort to attending OEC....i would be too. blaming that on FTD?

Some FTD's are idiots, some are brilliant.

my school program seemed to accept one every few yrs. they always stayed in academia (whether they stay in academia for visa purposes or genuine interest i don't know). One (after 6 yrs of moving up the ranks) looks like he's poised to become director of postgrad in a few yrs. that seems to be a legit reason. i mean if we americans aren't taking up positions in academia what are the programs supposed to do. ideally programs would increase salary and benefits of ortho academics that should sway some of us to stay.

taking FTDs for $$$ reasons is ridiculous. it's obvious which programs do this and they should get their finances in order instead of relying on a FTD cash grab. i'm all for diversity and all that stuff, but 3 out of 4 acceptances going to FTD? that's a little out of control.

I'm with you that some FTDs are bright, whereas others are less so. The same can be said for many U.S. ortho kids. However, if we don't "need" them in the applicant pool just how many should be accepted? I think it's great to have people from various backgrounds, but if 20% of our spots are taken by FTD I begin to think that's not so great.

Academia is great. We need help there. We don't need more FTDs transitioning to private practice to compete in Miami or NYC. I just don't understand the purpose of admitting someone from Bucharest to open up a practice in Manhattan. We've got plenty of kids from Long Island to do that.

S Files, were you generalizing about 3 of 4 spots? I'm wondering where that happens.

 

[WireBender2010]

Firm,

Though we never saw eye to eye on OEC, we've at least got a few points we can agree on here. If we have no shortage of qualified kids applying to U.S. programs--ortho or whatever it might be--selling out should not be considered. The U.S. kids would pay the extra $. Securing spots for FTDs whose only goal is to make U.S. private-practice $ is unbelievable. Some bypass the Match, stay in the U.S. long enough to get their paperwork, and then move to Phoenix or elsewhere.

Again, these FTDs turned U.S. ortho residnets have very natural impulses driving them to do this. It's the directors who operate these now-systematic arrangements who are responsible. Yet, something tells me these directors don't care. In fact, they know exactly what they're doing. All the U.S. kids who don't match don't bother them.

Capisce?, I'm all for working hard. We all do that. But if ~20% (someone should verify that) of the ortho residency spots are taken by someone other than U.S. applicants, I'd argue that regardless of how hard quite a few U.S. kids work 20% of the spots won't go to them.

If I remember it right, 16 FTDs got matched to the Ortho programs this year. As for selection to Ortho programs....I firmly believe that academic merit should be the factor...and not ability to pay thrice the fee, etc. I still cant come to terms with someone alluding to "All FTDs as complete Idiots". Anyway...may be he/she dint mean it...people should get more sensitive to others' feelings before posting such stuff i guess.

 

[vorosvirag]

Only if you can't see farther than your nose tip.

Lexus,

This isn't only about snobbery or shortsightedness. It's about dysfunctional admissions practices. If you're a FTD that's perfectly fine. Just look at it from our point of view.

We have lots of kids wanting to be orthodontists in this country. They deserve a shot at this. For our own directors to secure spots for FTDs raises our eyebrows. Many of us think this type of activity is going on at a frequency higher than it should, and in ways that it shouldn't.

You're right. We don't have a monopoly on knowledge in this country. But this is our country. It reaches out quite a bit to other countries. You may disagree. You likely are participating in this thread because you are either here or wish to be here. You may get such a great opportunity. But, it is still an opportunity--not a right. Even U.S. kids don't have a right to be an orthodontist. Yet, it's a system that should favor them.

If programs in this country get a little chaotic, it is appropriate to correct the course and bring things back into control. That is what many are hoping for.

 

[Firm]

I'm with you that some FTDs are bright, whereas others are less so. The same can be said for many U.S. ortho kids. However, if we don't "need" them in the applicant pool just how many should be accepted? I think it's great to have people from various backgrounds, but if 20% of our spots are taken by FTD I begin to think that's not so great.

Academia is great. We need help there. We don't need more FTDs transitioning to private practice to compete in Miami or NYC. I just don't understand the purpose of admitting someone from Bucharest to open up a practice in Manhattan. We've got plenty of kids from Long Island to do that.

S Files, were you generalizing about 3 of 4 spots? I'm wondering where that happens.

I agree with you on most of this. I don't believe these position should only be for Americans. I'm all for foreign students getting an education here. They should have to go to college, then get into dental school, then get into Ortho like the rest of us. They shouldn't move to the front of the line becuase they are dentists in Egypt. I get pissed when I meet someone from another country that went straight into ortho after graduating from the University of Taiwan. Then when you talk to them, and see their work you realize that 75 people in your dental class are smarter than this guy. It makes you wonder how did he/she get straight in(with out any american credentials) over a friend of mine (with great grades) who has been waiting 5 years? All FTD's are not idiots. There are many very smart ones, but prove it on our turf! There is no way that UNC ortho should be accepting FTD straight from foreign dental schools. I'm sure that there is a tax-paying North Carolina resident that is more deserving

 

[vorosvirag]

If I remember it right, 16 FTDs got matched to the Ortho programs this year. As for selection to Ortho programs....I firmly believe that academic merit should be the factor...and not ability to pay thrice the fee, etc. I still cant come to terms with someone alluding to "All FTDs as complete Idiots". Anyway...may be he/she dint mean it...people should get more sensitive to others' feelings before posting such stuff i guess.

WireBender2010,

Where did you get your number 16? I remember a report I read about 2 months ago with a long list of %s. The number of FTDs in ortho residency blew my mind.

Yeah, I agree w/ you, WireBender2010, on the "complete idiots" comment. Way out of line on that one, Firm. These are great people. I have no quarrel w/ them. I'd likely try to do the same thing if I were in their shoes. I just feel the # is too high and should be looked at. Respect everyone, but correct the course if we've got a problem.

 

[WireBender2010]

WireBender2010,

Where did you get your number 16? I remember a report I read about 2 months ago with a long list of %s. The number of FTDs in ortho residency blew my mind.

Yeah, I agree w/ you, WireBender2010, on the "complete idiots" comment. Way out of line on that one, Firm. These are great people. I have no quarrel w/ them. I'd likely try to do the same thing if I were in their shoes. I just feel the # is too high and should be looked at. Respect everyone, but correct the course if we've got a problem.

I got this number from this year's "Ortho Match" stats. Dont quote me on this though. I will reconfirm this.

 

[vorosvirag]

I agree with you on most of this. I don't believe these position should only be for Americans. I'm all for foreign students getting an education here. They should have to go to college, then get into dental school, then get into Ortho like the rest of us. They shouldn't move to the front of the line becuase they are dentists in Egypt. I get pissed when I meet someone from another country that went straight into ortho after graduating from the University of Taiwan. Then when you talk to them, and see their work you realize that 75 people in your dental class are smarter than this guy. It makes you wonder how did he/she get straight in(with out any american credentials) over a friend of mine (with great grades) who has been waiting 5 years? All FTD's are not idiots. There are many very smart ones, but prove it on our turf! There is no way that UNC ortho should be accepting FTD straight from foreign dental schools. I'm sure that there is a tax-paying North Carolina resident that is more deserving

Does UNC admit FTDs as ortho residents? I know some do it occassionally for future faculty positions. I'm all for this. Not enough Americans can be convinced to work in ortho academics. It's those who come w/ only the intention to go into private practice that (in my opinion) are exploiting a dysfunctional admissions process.

What is a fair % of FTDs in U.S. ortho programs? What do you guys think? Who should determine this?

I don't make any comparisons to intelligence. My experience has not led me to believe any meaningful difference exists between U.S. and international residents. I'll not go there.

My problem is a lack of transparency in the ortho admissions process at certain schools. The director and his/her associates win at the expense of those who should have some sort of priority.

 

[WireBender2010]

I got this number from this year's "Ortho Match" stats. Dont quote me on this though. I will reconfirm this.

Ok I got the number "16" right. 16 out of 251 ortho position went to Non-US dental school trained graduates. This is for Ortho programs participating in the "Match". Please check the site below -
http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/index.htm

So I guess, the whole discussion of FTDs eating into Ortho positions must stop.

 

[vorosvirag]

I got this number from this year's "Ortho Match" stats. Dont quote me on this though. I will reconfirm this.

As I said earlier, WireBender2010, many programs accept these kids outside the Match. I don't believe BU participates in the Match. I wasted my $ applying to them. They do everything by their own rules. So, do a few other schools. The school I've referred to accepts at least 2-3 kids/year outside the Match in the Spring.

The argument that these kids don't compete w/ the Match kids is entirely false. From the moment that these 2-3 international spots were created at this program, the competition was over. The international kids won by the director's decree. 2-3 fewer U.S. applicants will match to ortho because of this program alone. And 2-3 more international kids will get into U.S. programs. Some of them help in academics, but many seem to prefer U.S. private-practice opportunities.

 

[Firm]

Does UNC admit FTDs as ortho residents? I know some do it occassionally for future faculty positions. I'm all for this. Not enough Americans can be convinced to work in ortho academics. It's those who come w/ only the intention to go into private practice that (in my opinion) are exploiting a dysfunctional admissions process.

What is a fair % of FTDs in U.S. ortho programs? What do you guys think? Who should determine this?

I don't make any comparisons to intelligence. My experience has not led me to believe any meaningful difference exists between U.S. and international residents. I'll not go there.

My problem is a lack of transparency in the ortho admissions process at certain schools. The director and his/her associates win at the expense of those who should have some sort of priority.

We need to make a distinction between FTD and students born in foreign countries. Are you against foreigners taking spots or Foreign trained dentists?

 

[WireBender2010]

As I said earlier, WireBender2010, many programs accept these kids outside the Match. I don't believe BU participates in the Match. I wasted my $ applying to them. They do everything by their own rules. So, do a few other schools. The school I've referred to accepts at least 2-3 kids/year outside the Match in the Spring.

The argument that these kids don't compete w/ the Match kids is entirely false. From the moment that these 2-3 international spots were created at this program, the competition was over. The international kids won by the director's decree. 2-3 fewer U.S. applicants will match to ortho because of this program alone. And 2-3 more international kids will get into U.S. programs. Some of them help in academics, but many seem to prefer U.S. private-practice opportunities.

Yeah...i totally agree with you. We know that 16 FTDs got into Ortho programs that participated in Match. It would be interesting if we have empirical evidence on how many FTDs entered into programs that did not participate in Match and their long term goals. Based on my discussion with a few program directors during the interview process and also a few students, some programs accept FTDs because, one of their objectives is to train these FTDs in Ortho and send them back to their home country for teaching/research. I personally know a few FTDs who completed their Ortho programs here and went back to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and India to pursue a career there. Having said that, I dont expect this to be the trend everywhere. Maybe I am just knowing FTDs who are interested in academics. As you had mentioned, I am sure there are a whole lot of FTDs who are interested in private practice.

 

[vorosvirag]

We need to make a distinction between FTD and students born in foreign countries. Are you against foreigners taking spots or Foreign trained dentists?

I have no trouble w/ kids born outside the U.S., who immigrate to America, and go through the education system, including the Match. I have several friends in residency whose parents came to the states when they were little. That's what we're all about. Opportunity in this country is for everyone. But, let's try to base opportunity on merit.

I mentioned earlier that I had read on an ADA flyer of some sort that listed the dental specialty residencies according to several categories including: male/female, foreign trained, and other categories. I remember thinking how the female % was slightly lower than I expected, but the number of FTDs was much higher than expected (~20%). I'll search for this flyer. Someone has got to know what I'm referring to. And it's not 16/251. That may be the Match #s, but we're talking about all spots--not Match only.

Some % should be admitted into the U.S. But to establish a systematic admission process to feed the program $, allowing these folks from abroad to enjoy our good lifestyle denied to more-than-capable U.S. kids is criminal (or at least terribly unfair and self-serving). Again, this is only my opinion.

 

[vorosvirag]

Yeah...i totally agree with you. We know that 16 FTDs got into Ortho programs that participated in Match. It would be interesting if we have empirical evidence on how many FTDs entered into programs that did not participate in Match and their long term goals. Based on my discussion with a few program directors during the interview process and also a few students, some programs accept FTDs because, one of their objectives is to train these FTDs in Ortho and send them back to their home country for teaching/research. I personally know a few FTDs who completed their Ortho programs here and went back to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and India to pursue a career there. Having said that, I dont expect this to be the trend everywhere. Maybe I am just knowing FTDs who are interested in academics. As you had mentioned, I am sure there are a whole lot of FTDs who are interested in private practice.

This is the core of the discussion. Having the FTDs return home can enhance the image of the U.S. training institution.

The trend at the schools I've observed (first-hand and second-hand), however, is that most of the FTDs don't go back to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, or India. They go to Phoenix, NYC, or Dallas. We can't blame them. They're not breaking any laws. We just need to have a transparent system w/ accountable program directors.

I'm not xenophobic. I just see a problem and am willing to detail it as I see it. Let's determine a good % and admit that number of kids from outside the U.S. Reserve the rest for American candidates. What do you think ortho directors or dental associations do in Spain, Iran, or China? Would Americans (if they even wished to attend) be admitted as easily as some seem to enter here? I highly doubt it.

I'm not sure who is in charge of the big picture. Likely, nobody. Hence the chaos. Someone w/ more authority than I should remind the program directors I know of (and likely some others) of their mission.

 

[gryffindor]

Wow, this has turned into an intense thread. Back to the original topic, yeah, our program was definitely imbalanced, 9 guys and 2 girls this year. I think it's just how match distributed the residents into our program because other programs I've seen appear to be more balanced. I too agree with Firm, I wish there were more women in my program because I think there are different issues that come with trying to establish yourself as a woman in ortho. I attended the "Women Orthodontists" lecture at the AAO and it was really nice and helpful because it touched on so many topics I always wonder about, but no one at my program ever discusses because they don't apply to a bunch of dudes with egos who will be the main breadwinners in their families.

Edit: I counted up the grads of our program since it started through 2007, 40 guys, 6 girls.

The foreign dentists in ortho thing... I wonder if there is more than one program that follows the shady processes vorosvirag alluded to, because it sounds strangely similar to a school supported by tax dollars that has qualified seniors (state residents) go unmatched almost every year but has plenty of non-match foreign spots....and not all of those foreigners stay on in academics or go home either....

 

[vorosvirag]

The foreign dentists in ortho thing... I wonder if there is more than one program that follows the shady processes vorosvirag alluded to, because it sounds strangely similar to a school supported by tax dollars that has qualified seniors (state residents) go unmatched almost every year but has plenty of non-match foreign spots....and not all of those foreigners stay on in academics or go home either....

I know of a few schools that are involved w/ interesting practices. One may be the specific school you're referring to. I don't know. The Match is tough enough, but some of the practices I've heard about surpass the Match's drama.

 

[Jaybe]

Wow, this has turned into an intense thread. Back to the original topic, yeah, our program was definitely imbalanced, 9 guys and 2 girls this year. I think it's just how match distributed the residents into our program because other programs I've seen appear to be more balanced. I too agree with Firm, I wish there were more women in my program because I think there are different issues that come with trying to establish yourself as a woman in ortho. I attended the "Women Orthodontists" lecture at the AAO and it was really nice and helpful because it touched on so many topics I always wonder about, but no one at my program ever discusses because they don't apply to a bunch of dudes with egos who will be the main breadwinners in their families.

The foreign dentists in ortho thing... I wonder if there is more than one program that follows the shady processes vorosvirag alluded to, because it sounds strangely similar to a school supported by tax dollars that has qualified seniors (state residents) go unmatched almost every year but has plenty of non-match foreign spots....and not all of those foreigners stay on in academics or go home either....

I know of one 'unnamed' program in Illinois takes 2-3 each year. Usually at least one is Saudi. I think they may actually do it through MATCH, but I'm not certain.

Considering that it is the only Ortho Program in Illinois, and Illinois is quite a populated state, it would irritate me if my state school was giving 30% of its Ortho spots to FOB FTDs. But I'm not from Illinios, so what do I have to complain about. . .

Anyway, the ortho guru up there told me that taking the smart, educated foreigners each year is what makes our country stronger. And that it fosters goodwill overseas. Maybe he's right. He's a lot smarter than me. But I still don't like the idea that US grads are getting pushed out.

(And for the record, I like FTDs)

 

[Lexus]

Lexus,

This isn't only about snobbery or shortsightedness. It's about dysfunctional admissions practices. If you're a FTD that's perfectly fine. Just look at it from our point of view.

We have lots of kids wanting to be orthodontists in this country. They deserve a shot at this. For our own directors to secure spots for FTDs raises our eyebrows. Many of us think this type of activity is going on at a frequency higher than it should, and in ways that it shouldn't.

You're right. We don't have a monopoly on knowledge in this country. But this is our country. It reaches out quite a bit to other countries. You may disagree. You likely are participating in this thread because you are either here or wish to be here. You may get such a great opportunity. But, it is still an opportunity--not a right. Even U.S. kids don't have a right to be an orthodontist. Yet, it's a system that should favor them.

If programs in this country get a little chaotic, it is appropriate to correct the course and bring things back into control. That is what many are hoping for.

Yes, you are right about the shady processes.! I know three FTD's who WILL be accepted right before the match this year. One of them is a fresh graduate without NBDE 1, going to Tuft's.! Not a big deal if his bro is Head of ortho dep. for undergraduate.!and yessss, this is a huge frustration even for me, a FTD.

But I m still not sure that (ranked 1st in UCLA) is better than (ranked 10th in UPENN)...Okay, forget about it.

 

[cuneatus2]

Yes, you are right about the shady processes.! I know three FTD's who WILL be accepted right before the match this year. One of them is a fresh graduate without NBDE 1, going to Tuft's.! Not a big deal if his bro is Head of ortho dep. for undergraduate.!and yessss, this is a huge frustration even for me, a FTD.

But I m still not sure that (ranked 1st in UCLA) is better than (ranked 10th in UPENN)...Okay, forget about it.

L

 

[gryffindor]

I know of one 'unnamed' program in Illinois takes 2-3 each year. Usually at least one is Saudi. I think they may actually do it through MATCH, but I'm not certain.

LOL, I wasn't referring to this unnamed program. But with this and the UCLA info alluded to earlier in the thread, we now know there is definitely more than one state program out there with shadiness going on.

 

[hturt]

i, for one, support FTD in American ortho programs. many of them are brilliant and industrious and deserve a chance to cultivate their talents. however, i really wish more of them--once they finish their training--would choose not to practice in the US. from an international/public health perspective, there is a great need for orthodontists overseas and most likely in their own countries; FTD have a unique advantage in this area: their cultural background and fluency can serve their communities in ways many of us cannot.

 

[Jaybe]

i, for one, support FTD in American ortho programs. many of them are brilliant and industrious and deserve a chance to cultivate their talents. however, i really wish more of them--once they finish their training--would choose not to practice in the US. from an international/public health perspective, there is a great need for orthodontists overseas and most likely in their own countries; FTD have a unique advantage in this area: their cultural background and fluency can serve their communities in ways many of us cannot.

But don't you think it would just be better if they stayed in the US and continued to serve the underserved populations of Manhattan, San Diego, Miami, and the greater Chicagoland area???

 

[hturt]

But don't you think it would just be better if they stayed in the US and continued to serve the underserved populations of Manhattan, San Diego, Miami, and the greater Chicagoland area???

actually no, FTD can better serve overseas. most FTD train in the states because the schools in their homeland do not provide a satisfactory education.. so if they return to their native soil and teach and treat their people, establish ortho schools, etc.. not only would they not have to train in the US, but they can also increase the supply of orthodontists in those countries.
the effect on the underserved in our own country would be minimal in the long run. after a while, the number of FTD applicants to US schools would decrease (because they would go to their own schools) and allow many more of us an opportunity to become orthodontists..

 

[Firm]

i, for one, support FTD in American ortho programs. many of them are brilliant and industrious and deserve a chance to cultivate their talents. however, i really wish more of them--once they finish their training--would choose not to practice in the US. from an international/public health perspective, there is a great need for orthodontists overseas and most likely in their own countries; FTD have a unique advantage in this area: their cultural background and fluency can serve their communities in ways many of us cannot.

If they are so brilliant, then they shouldn't mind showing us their brilliance in an American dental school. The stereotype that these FTD's are so smart, and it makes America better is just that a stereotype. If the issue is diversity, I just haven't seen where these FTD are head and shoulders above american minorities. If you are an FTD you should damn near be able to walk on water. Some schools (especially in Florida) take FTD's from Mexico or China before taking Mexican-American's or Chinese-American's born and raised here. That's not right.

 

[vorosvirag]

actually no, FTD can better serve overseas. most FTD train in the states because the schools in their homeland do not provide a satisfactory education.. so if they return to their native soil and teach and treat their people, establish ortho schools, etc.. not only would they not have to train in the US, but they can also increase the supply of orthodontists in those countries.
the effect on the underserved in our own country would be minimal in the long run. after a while, the number of FTD applicants to US schools would decrease (because they would go to their own schools) and allow many more of us an opportunity to become orthodontists..

Interesting analysis. Our own directors make it way too easy for them to come here and stay. Why would they want to return home? Life here in so many case is much better. Consider what Chavez is up to in Venezuela or some other characters around the world. Bush is no saint, but the U.S. a'int all bad. I've talked to many FTDs who've gotten into ortho. Some are from Iran, Syria, China, and other countries that lack a rewarding economy for the health-care provider.

By not going home, their countries are losing some of their most able sons and daughters. And by taking U.S. spots and subsequently not going home, some of American's most able sons and daughters get hosed and get the privilege of reapplying to ortho a time or two.