UK v. US medical schools outcomes

[fatedMD]

Do medical schools in the US or UK make better physicians?

This is taking into account that UK students are enrolled in a medical school right after high school and thus start their residency much earlier than US students.

Also which one is more competitive to get into?I know there's no way of really proving this but plz back up your statements with solid and reliable facts..or why you think so

Thanks

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[bambi]

I would say at least in 1 way it is harder to get in in the UK- we only get to apply to 4 schools! Our application process seems easier though- 1 form with your details, personal statement + reference- the exact same stuff sent to every school you apply to, nothing extra is allowed. Then interviews and offers, waitlists are unusual.

Also our A levels (last 2 years of school) are more the equivalent of your first couple of years of college so yes we go straight from school (usually) but it's not quite the same as you going straight from school.

Although doing the USMLE might be annoying I think it's a good idea to review all the preclinical stuff and I imagine your knowledge going into clinicals is better than ours. We don't touch a lot of the stuff that you lot do either, it's nice to know it but you don't really need a lot of it in practice so we don't do it.

US med schools seem to have a lot more exams than we do which I certainly wouldn't like. We have more clinical time and I have heard, though I don't know how true it is that we are better clinically- US grads apparently order too many tests because you aren't taught diagnostic skills as well as us. Your schools seem to vary a lot more though, everything here is much more standardised, so UK students might be loads better than grads from some of your schools but loads worse than grads from others. Your intern year however is probably far better than our equivalent- FY1. The European working time directive means we do a lot less hours so just don't have the time to learn as much as you lot and we have very little dedicated teaching time.

 

[fatedMD]

That's excellent! Thanks for your reply.
I wish someone else would give their reply from purely the American side as well.

 

[leorl]

You cannot compare. The systems are completely different. It's like apples and oranges coming together to make a lovely fruit salad. The fact that Europeans start straight out of high school does not make better doctors. Yes, I have met many very smart UK / Irish / european graduates because of the competitive nature of medicine there. However, as an American graduate of a european school, I cannot say that there is a superiority.

Clinically out of medical school, europeans are better trained. Unfortunately, it's a skill which is lost when coming to the US, but I started losing those skills as an intern in Ireland anyway, so it really just depends what your specialty is in. Also, specialty-dependent, US catch up in the clinical skills department and FMGs catch up in the procedures department.

Part of the issue with ordering diagnostic tests in the US is that it's legal. Even though we know xxxx test isn't absolutely indicated, it must be performed because it is part of protocol, or not doing it will land you in court should the case go badly. Just an unfortunate part of society nowadays.

Now that I'm in residency, I've met many (both FMGs and US-trained) and found that success in residency is individual. It isn't the fact that x graduated overseas or y graduated from Ivy League medical school, it's how a person's mind works, his/her ability to logic, work ethic, enthusiasm, etc. - personality traits which you cannot learn in medical school.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I agree with Leorl who, like myself, has seen medicine in both the U.K. and in U.S. The bottom line is that both systems are just so massively different that they cannot be reasonably compared. The U.S. system definitely makes you more accountable as a medical student: you (under supervision, obviously) admit from the E.R., write orders, develop a plan, round daily, order tests (must be co-signed) and are generally accountable for the details. Nothing close to this was the case when I rotated for a month in the U.K. However, the British medical students get dumped with scut a lot more than we do, and so they are definitely more proficient in starting i.v.'s, doing ABG's etc. They rock over there. I had a great month doing all of those things.

In terms of admission (I studied for fours years in a U.K. university and took classes with medical students, so I can talk confidently about this): you need good grades on either side of the pond, and you pretty much need to be impressive regardless. A British doctor from Manchester who was in the U.S. for a few years with me said he felt it was harder to gain admission stateside because you have a much harder entrance exam that is required on top of good grades. I don't really agree with that. From high school, the students that are admitted in the U.K. are impressive. The grades are high. However, for those admitted as graduates in the U.K, you can definitely get away with a lot more. I studied with people who actually failed undergraduate classes but got admitted to medical school as a graduate applicant. This is possible because the British undergraduate degree essentially awards the degree classification (sort of like a GPA, but not really) based almost entirely on the final year's work. If you had crappy grades and failures in the earlier years, it gets washed out if you get a 2:1 or a first class honours in your final year. In the U.S., you are held accountable for EVERY grade. If it's not an A or close to it, you'll have a problem being admitted to medical school, and a failure will probably jettison your application altogether.

In the end, the product is essentially the same on either side of the pond. While much of the education occurs at the postgraduate level in the U.K, more occurs at the undergraduate level in the U.S. Undergraduate and medical school training eats up more time in the U.S, and residency is shorter. The converse is the case in the U.K. In the end, both groups are around the same age when they are a consultant/attending physician. I hope that helps!

 

[fatedMD]

Thanks a lot for your replies! Those were really good points you all brought up.

It isn't the fact that x graduated overseas or y graduated from Ivy League medical school, it's how a person's mind works, his/her ability to logic, work ethic, enthusiasm, etc. - personality traits which you cannot learn in medical school.

I partly agree, because yes in the end it all does come down to each individuals motivation and enthusiasm, but I also believe that prestigious medical schools or what not, can help you further develop your cognitive abilities/skills as well as other things that are crucial for a future physician. Everything, in a way, does go hand in hand.

Another issue I've been noticing is the fact that we, as US students, are required to have a well built resume that are also heavily looked upon by Medical schools. Is there such system in the UK in which students should have a basis of volunteering works as well as other extracurricular activities? If not, do you think our volunteer experiences can in a way help us gain that hands on experience Uk students get before US students?

In the U.S., you are held accountable for EVERY grade. If it's not an A or close to it, you'll have a problem being admitted to medical school, and a failure will probably jettison your application altogether.

ahh! Unfortunately yes. Do you suggest taking classes with easier professors the hardly teach or tough professors that make you learn every little useless detail claiming it'll help us in the future!? I know GPA is a BIIIIIIG thing here, but if you don't learn the material well, you can't do well on the MCAT.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Do you suggest taking classes with easier professors the hardly teach or tough professors that make you learn every little useless detail claiming it'll help us in the future!? I know GPA is a BIIIIIIG thing here, but if you don't learn the material well, you can't do well on the MCAT.

If you're talking about learning, I think it's important to separate the MCAT from college undergraduate classes taken for the sake of your general edification and learning. The prerequisite courses are obvious exceptions to this rule. The MCAT is a test that requires very specific preparation (I teach for a professional MCAT prep. company). Smart people sometimes don't do well on it. Likewise, I've seen slackers with mediocre grades do very well simply because they are good at this type of test if they put in the effort. Look over the syllabus before you enroll in the prerequisite class and make sure that it covers everything that's on the MCAT (the AAMC website provides the latter information). If the syllabus covers it, take the class - wherever it is. The MCAT is a test that punishes people who are great memorizers and that's all they do. Most of the information is presented in a new and unfamiliar format and, under extreme time pressure, you must draw on knowledge of chemistry, organic chemistry, biology, and physics to get the answer. It is a thinking exam.

Now, about the GPA: it absolutely must be as high as possible. If someone with a 4.0 from a relatively unknown college does alright on the MCAT, I promise you that they are way more attractive than a Harvard or MIT graduate with a 3.2. GPA. In the former, the student bloomed where they were planted. In the latter case, the argument of a tough institution or 'smarter' classmates does not hold water; it always leaves doubts in the mind of admissions directors because they just can't tell if it's the student or a tough curriculum that lowered the GPA. I have interviewed applicants for medical school for the past three years and (at least at my school) the grades and the MCAT score are very, very important. I have seen people attempt a tough biophysics or structural biochemistry degree because they felt it would look 'more impressive' to the admissions committee. If the grades are lower than those of an applicant with a public policy or English degree, the latter wins every time. Counterintuitive to some, but that's reality in the U.S.

 

[bambi]

Thanks a lot for your replies! Those were really good points you all brought up.


Another issue I've been noticing is the fact that we, as US students, are required to have a well built resume that are also heavily looked upon by Medical schools. Is there such system in the UK in which students should have a basis of volunteering works as well as other extracurricular activities? If not, do you think our volunteer experiences can in a way help us gain that hands on experience Uk students get before US students?

We don't get to send a cv to med schools or anything but anything important should be mentioned in our personal statement or reference. In the UK if you don't have voluntary work, you wont get in.



As for graduate applicants being able to get away with more, I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Firstly, at most places, the final year isn't the majority of your grade. For my degree it was 80%, but from the year after me it was 50% and my uni was unusual for having it as 80% in the first place. Also, you can't compare it to US college, some of what US students do in the first couple of years of college we will have already done at school so although technically you could fail a first year course it's not the same as a US student failing a college module. I wouldn't like the idea of every grade counting though so do prefer our way to the US way. You say all we need is a 2.1, well, if you do a tough subject at a good uni it can be tricky. A friend of mine from the uni of Florida did a semester at my uni and a very low 2.1 (61%) was equivalent to something in the 90s at her uni. Also a lot of places are starting to ask for 1sts from grads. Grads are also generally expected to have years of very varied and interesting voluntary work.

 

[Scottish Chap]

As for graduate applicants being able to get away with more, I certainly wouldn't put it like that. Firstly, at most places, the final year isn't the majority of your grade. For my degree it was 80%, but from the year after me it was 50% and my uni was unusual for having it as 80% in the first place.

Folks: now assuredly that this is not the general case in British universities. Most award the degree classification based almost entirely on the final year assessment. I've studied in British and American institutions, so I can post honestly and confidently about this.

Also, you can't compare it to US college, some of what US students do in the first couple of years of college we will have already done at school so although technically you could fail a first year course it's not the same as a US student failing a college module. I wouldn't like the idea of every grade counting though so do prefer our way to the US way. You say all we need is a 2.1, well, if you do a tough subject at a good uni it can be tricky. A friend of mine from the uni of Florida did a semester at my uni and a very low 2.1 (61%) was equivalent to something in the 90s at her uni. Also a lot of places are starting to ask for 1sts from grads. Grads are also generally expected to have years of very varied and interesting voluntary work.

Nonsense. I have a 2:1 from one of the most prestigious universities in the U.K. and I promise everyone reading this that it is not a 90% average at a middle-tier American university. Again, first-hand experience allows me to post honestly and confidently about this. It is not easy to be accepted to medical school - regardless of where the school is. There is a two-tiered system for medical school entry in the U.K. and, comparing the standards for graduate entry in the U.K. to the U.S., you'd rather live in the U.K. if you want to be a physician. That's why so many North Americans go there for med school if they cannot get into a U.S. school - less headaches with admission, but a quality medical degree from the U.K.

 

[bambi]

Folks: now assuredly that this is not the general case in British universities. Most award the degree classification based almost entirely on the final year assessment. I've studied in British and American institutions, so I can post honestly and confidently about this.


Nonsense. I have a 2:1 from one of the most prestigious universities in the U.K. and I promise everyone reading this that it is not a 90% average at a middle-tier American university. Again, first-hand experience allows me to post honestly and confidently about this. It is not easy to be accepted to medical school - regardless of where the school is. There is a two-tiered system for medical school entry in the U.K. and, comparing the standards for graduate entry in the U.K. to the U.S., you'd rather live in the U.K. if you want to be a physician. That's so many North Americans go there for med school if they cannot get into a U.S. school - less headaches with admission, but a quality medical degree from the U.K.

I have been to 2 different British Unis and can assure you that it is not the norm for the final year to be so heavily weighted anymore so can post "honestly and confidently" about this myself. It varies by uni + degree but quite a lot are 50% 2nd year 50% final year now, for some 1st year counts too.

As for the 90% thing- I too have a 2.1 from a prestigious UK uni and I saw the paperwork from her uni saying what the grade conversion was, again allowing me to post "honestly and confidently" about it. I was surprised by it but like I said I saw it with my own eyes!

 

[Scottish Chap]

I have been to 2 different British Unis and can assure you that it is not the norm for the final year to be so heavily weighted anymore so can post "honestly and confidently" about this myself. It varies by uni + degree but quite a lot are 50% 2nd year 50% final year now, for some 1st year counts too.

As for the 90% thing- I too have a 2.1 from a prestigious UK uni and I saw the paperwork from her uni saying what the grade conversion was, again allowing me to post "honestly and confidently" about it. I was surprised by it but like I said I saw it with my own eyes!

You're dreaming. The paperwork you refer to is either from an international credentialing agency (been there, done that...) or it's an administrator's inflated guess. In any case, it's a 'guestimate', it's not subject to mathematical manipulation, and so it's not accurate. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you CANNOT interchange British and American credentials and no university can do this. They are too dissimilar. As I recall, your "friend" was in the U.S. for a brief period of time. In any case, you have zero experience of education in the U.S. so I'm not sure why you always post authoritatively regarding this matter.

 

[bambi]

You're dreaming. The paperwork you refer to is either from an international credentialing agency (been there, done that...) or it's an administrator's inflated guess. In any case, it's a 'guestimate', it's not subject to mathematical manipulation, and so it's not accurate. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you CANNOT interchange British and American credentials and no university can do this. They are too dissimilar. As I recall, your "friend" was in the U.S. for a brief period of time. In any case, you have zero experience of education in the U.S. so I'm not sure why you always post authoritatively regarding this matter.

When someone spends a semester/year studying abroad it isn't to party, they take classes and get credit for them when they return home- grades are converted. My friend did her degree in the US (and was born and raised there in case you wondered)! She came to the UK for a semester, Italy for another. I know what I saw, it makes no difference to me what you think, I'm in med school, none of this matters to my life, I was just sharing information.

I have never said I have experienced US education, but with my entire family being American I do have a few friends out there and funnily enough they have experienced US education and we talk! I have never pretended to have first hand experience.

 

[Scottish Chap]

When someone spends a semester/year studying abroad it isn't to party, they take classes and get credit for them when they return home- grades are converted. My friend did her degree in the US (and was born and raised there in case you wondered)! She came to the UK for a semester, Italy for another. I know what I saw, it makes no difference to me what you think, I'm in med school, none of this matters to my life, I was just sharing information.

I have never said I have experienced US education, but with my entire family being American I do have a few friends out there and funnily enough they have experienced US education and we talk! I have never pretended to have first hand experience.

Advice by proxy. Gotcha. Thanks for the important clarification.

 

[docnew]

...

 

[bambi]

Scottish Chap, I need your advice urgently! I applied to UCL and Imperial and got admission to medical course in both as an international student. I decided to go for UCL. But then I also got admission into cornell in Qatar. I happen to live in the middleeast, and I hear from people that the college is excellent in terms of teaching standards. I also liked the facilities there when I visited the campus. Doctors passing out from cornell have been placed in good residency positions in the US. As an international student, where do you think my future will be better, in the US or UK? I do not have any preference for either. Can you please help?

As a non-EU resident you will find it very difficult to get a job in the UK even if you study there so I would say US.

 

[docnew]

..

 

[bambi]

It's not a case of just being disadvantaged, you just wouldn't be able to get a job after the foundation years. Anyone with a passport from an EU country is considered totally equal when it comes to jobs here, everyone else, unless they are already in training posts just wont get one.

 

[docnew]

.....

 

[bambi]

If you see the websites related to specialty training recruitments, they mention that non-EU students with UK medical degree who fulfill the criteria of 75 points under the new points system are eligible to compete along with the local students. They also do not need a work permit to stay and work in the UK. So what I am asking is in reality do they actually discriminate based on nationality? Will the employers overlook the applications of non-EU UK medics even if they scored very well?

Secondly, in the US, do they also discriminate based on the nationality when it comes to residency positions?

Really? Sorry not really up on the new points system, it's a long way off for me and I have exams! I imagine that if you fulfill the stated criteria you wont be discriminated against. A massive chunk of our doctors aren't EU citizens, we are very used to having doctors from all over the world and without them the NHS would have collapsed decades ago so if you are good enough you will get a job.

 

[dragonfly99]

Really? Sorry not really up on the new points system, it's a long way off for me and I have exams! I imagine that if you fulfill the stated criteria you wont be discriminated against. A massive chunk of our doctors aren't EU citizens, we are very used to having doctors from all over the world and without them the NHS would have collapsed decades ago so if you are good enough you will get a job.

In the US, national origin is not a factor, but if you are not a permanent resident of US (i.e. with Green Card) or a US citizen, some residencies will not take you because they don't want to deal with having to get a visa for you, when they can just take a qualified US citizen or perm. resident and not have to deal with the extra paperwork and expense, etc. Also, usually graduates of US schools will have preference over those who studied in other countries. Still, a good number of residency spots in things like internal medicine and psychiatry and family medicine still go to foreign trained grads, and English-speaking European grads tend to do pretty well vs. perhaps some Caribbean grads or folks from non English speaking countries. So yes, it is harder to get a resident in the US if you didn't train here and aren't either a citizen or permanent resident immigrant. There were a couple folks from African in my US med school class, and one person from Taiwan, but since they had all gone to both college and medical school in the US, they had no trouble getting a residency...just had to find residency programs they were sure were willing to deal with their visa issues.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Scottish Chap, I need your advice urgently! I applied to UCL and Imperial and got admission to medical course in both as an international student. I decided to go for UCL. But then I also got admission into cornell in Qatar. I happen to live in the middleeast, and I hear from people that the college is excellent in terms of teaching standards. I also liked the facilities there when I visited the campus. Doctors passing out from cornell have been placed in good residency positions in the US. As an international student, where do you think my future will be better, in the US or UK? I do not have any preference for either. Can you please help?

Cornell Qatar if you see yourself applying for U.S. residency programs. This program seems to be the only offshore U.S-style M.D. program that commands as much respect as a U.S. medical school. As you alluded to, the graduates are mostly securing top academic residency positions in the U.S. (not sure I'd put that much weight on a prelim position, though - Harvard had a couple of prelim surgery positions go unfilled this year). I'll have one or two of them in my intern class this year. The Qatar program is very new, however, and so there will likely still be teething problems. The British system is still going through a lot of flux. The U.S. residency system is highly organized, compressed, and you'll get to the other side faster.

 

[docnew]

...