UK Medical Students Left in Limbo

[omniatlas]

Theres been a change in the handling of work-permits. Apparently International students are not assured a position after their F1/F2 years.

Article at http://www.medical-student.co.uk/

That kind of enrages me; I'll be heading off to the UK in a couple years and will have to decide if I will be staying over there or heading back to the States. This limits my options -- what do you guys think?

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[shetland]

Hey omniatlas

I heard the news on 29th of March 2006:

"the guidance from the dept of health is that non EEA nationals can not get a work permit unless the employer can show there is no EEA national suitable for the post. When employers get thousands of applications it is very likely there will be a suitable EEA applicant so personnel are well within the guidance if one of the criteria for shortlisting is that you must be an EEA national (or otherwise have the right to stay in this country.)"


This is causing lots of problems for non-European Union doctors already employed here, and in training. Although by the time you complete your training this mess will hopefully have been sorted out (it was announced suddenly here with little notice and apparently no forethought) as it stands, from what I currently understand it would mean that you would be unable to apply for/obtain a foundation year training post as the hospital would need to prove there was no EU resident eligible, and without which you would be unable to obtain full registration as a doctor as these comprise the final stages of training. Also you would be unable to work in the US/Canada with British training anyway without sitting the American exams and redoing your training (internship) which I guess would have been the case anyway as there is no reciprocal arrangement, and you would only be able to work in countries which recognise British training, which as things stand from now on, you would be unable to complete... Before you head towards the UK, it is worth checking with them that you would be able to complete your training and fully qualify as a doctor as you might then be stuck in no-man's land and have to retrain elsewhere.

Please disregard this if you are British or EU.

Cheers

Jx

 

[Mr. McDuck]

Guess you're doing your training in the US then, lol.

 

[Kev (UK)]

In a country like the UK, with more doctors than posts available for them, does it not make economic sense to employ all your own citizens and then, if there are posts still vacant, open them up to citizens from other countries? European law dictates that it would be illegal to prevent EEA graduates applying for these posts however.

How would US graduates feel if they were unable to secure residency training after medical school but UK doctors were able to pop over and take up a place?

 

[omniatlas]

Hey Shetland, hopefully things workout. Just to clarify, I will be attending a medical school with a twinning program with partner medical schools all around the world (including St. George UL, Leeds, Manchester, Leicester in England) and will have to decide in two years time where I would like to go. I am undecided at this point where I would like to subsequently practice but the new immigration law is sure as hell pointing me away from the UK. Nevertheless, I had originally intended to sit for the U.S. board exams.

There is an online pentition at http://www.medschoolsonline.co.uk/index.php?pageid=149

From the website:

Under the new regulations, graduating International Medical Students (IMS) will be EXCLUDED for appointment in training posts after Foundation Year 2 unless there is evidence from the employer that there are no qualified UK/EEA applicants for the post.

This prevents all applicants from being assessed fairly during the process of recruitment, thus ending the equal opportunities policy and enforcing discriminatory practice.

--

I've even heard London graduates are having difficulty securing F1 positions -- what in the hell is going on up there?

Hey omniatlas

I heard the news on 29th of March 2006:

"the guidance from the dept of health is that non EEA nationals can not get a work permit unless the employer can show there is no EEA national suitable for the post. When employers get thousands of applications it is very likely there will be a suitable EEA applicant so personnel are well within the guidance if one of the criteria for shortlisting is that you must be an EEA national (or otherwise have the right to stay in this country.)"


This is causing lots of problems for non-European Union doctors already employed here, and in training. Although by the time you complete your training this mess will hopefully have been sorted out (it was announced suddenly here with little notice and apparently no forethought) as it stands, from what I currently understand it would mean that you would be unable to apply for/obtain a foundation year training post as the hospital would need to prove there was no EU resident eligible, and without which you would be unable to obtain full registration as a doctor as these comprise the final stages of training. Also you would be unable to work in the US/Canada with British training anyway without sitting the American exams and redoing your training (internship) which I guess would have been the case anyway as there is no reciprocal arrangement, and you would only be able to work in countries which recognise British training, which as things stand from now on, you would be unable to complete... Before you head towards the UK, it is worth checking with them that you would be able to complete your training and fully qualify as a doctor as you might then be stuck in no-man's land and have to retrain elsewhere.

Please disregard this if you are British or EU.

Cheers

Jx

 

[omniatlas]

How would US graduates feel if they were unable to secure residency training after medical school but UK doctors were able to pop over and take up a place?

Hey Kev,

If ou've qualified in a UK medical school then you should have preferential treatment over other IMG's. I believe that this is fine as US medical schools have the same bias against their graduates.

Now I'm a little confused and perhaps someone can clarify -- I do not hold a EU passport, but I intend to graduate from a UK-based medical schools. Am I still considered an IMG? It seems like the problems are arising because even though you are a graduate from a UK medical school, you cannot be assured post-graduate training simply because you will be grouped into the international student cohort. This is discriminatory in nature.

 

[shetland]

Dear Omniatlas

If you are not British or EU, eventhough you are trained in the UK you are still considered IMG.

Which country are you from?

ps I think you still can get a post in F1 and F2, but you need connections and you need to make certain hospitals or consultants to like you enough to go through all the trouble.

Going back to World CUp now. GO ENGLAND!!!!!!!!!!

 

[omniatlas]

Originally from Malaysia but I attended University in the US and I have an American greencard. Hopefully there will be more opportunity by the time I graduate (2011).

I feel bad for England They never seem to make it through when PKs are involved.

Dear Omniatlas

If you are not British or EU, eventhough you are trained in the UK you are still considered IMG.

Which country are you from?

ps I think you still can get a post in F1 and F2, but you need connections and you need to make certain hospitals or consultants to like you enough to go through all the trouble.

Going back to World CUp now. GO ENGLAND!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kev (UK)]

Now I'm a little confused and perhaps someone can clarify -- I do not hold a EU passport, but I intend to graduate from a UK-based medical schools. Am I still considered an IMG? It seems like the problems are arising because even though you are a graduate from a UK medical school, you cannot be assured post-graduate training simply because you will be grouped into the international student cohort. This is discriminatory in nature.

As the new UK law now stands, you will be able to apply for posts for Foundation Year 1 & 2 (equivalent to Intern Year) as a UK medical school graduate. However, after this point you would need to apply for a work visa to remain working in the UK. Work visas can only be issued if the employer can prove that they could not fill that post with a EEA applicant. This law applies to all graduate medical posts beyond Foundation Year 2. As there is an estimated 2:1 ratio of applicants to residency posts it will make it very very very difficult for non-EEA citizens to access higher training or consultant posts in the UK from now on.

For this reason people need to think very carefully when considering applying overseas. Overseas students who undertake a medical degree in the UK have paid to undertake an academic degree course. This does not mean they then have the right to remain resident and work here according to the new laws. If an overseas student undertook a degree in Architecture, this would not give them the right to employment and UK residency after their course had finished. It is now no different for international medical students. The UK government have responded in the same manner as most governments would do. We have a surplus of UK resident medical graduates and to protect their employment & postgraduate training interests they are restricting access to medical posts.

I am sure IMGs with reasons to emigrate to the UK (eg marriage) can still apply for residency in the UK and then apply for the appropriate work permits.

Hope that helps. I am not a lawyer so maybe best check with one so as to be aware of your options. I am sure the UK Embassy can help as well. Of course things can change in the future.

 

[Kev (UK)]

Now I'm a little confused and perhaps someone can clarify -- I do not hold a EU passport, but I intend to graduate from a UK-based medical schools. Am I still considered an IMG? It seems like the problems are arising because even though you are a graduate from a UK medical school, you cannot be assured post-graduate training simply because you will be grouped into the international student cohort. This is discriminatory in nature.

As the new UK law now stands, you will be able to apply for posts for Foundation Year 1 & 2 (equivalent to Intern Year) as a UK medical school graduate. However, after this point you would need to apply for a work visa to remain working in the UK. Work visas can only be issued if the employer can prove that they could not fill that post with a EEA applicant. This law applies to all graduate medical posts beyond Foundation Year 2. As there is an estimated 2:1 ratio of applicants to residency posts it will make it very very very difficult for non-EEA citizens to access higher training or consultant posts in the UK from now on.

For this reason people need to think very carefully when considering applying overseas. Overseas students who undertake a medical degree in the UK have paid to undertake an academic degree course. This does not mean they then have the right to remain resident and work here according to the new laws. If an overseas student undertook a degree in Architecture, this would not give them the right to employment and UK residency after their course had finished. It is now no different for international medical students. The UK government have responded in the same manner as most governments would do. We have a surplus of UK resident medical graduates and to protect their employment & postgraduate training interests they are restricting access to medical posts.

I am sure IMGs with reasons to emigrate to the UK (eg marriage) can still apply for residency in the UK and then apply for the appropriate work permits.

Hope that helps. I am not a lawyer so maybe best check with one so as to be aware of your options. I am sure the UK Embassy can help as well. Of course things can change in the future.

 

[omniatlas]

Thanks for the info Kev. Why such a surplus of doctors in the UK? Are there just too many foreign graduates or are there too many students enrolled in UK medical schools? The job market works in cycles, so if there is a surplus right now, in couple years there should be a real need for physicians.

For this reason people need to think very carefully when considering applying overseas. Overseas students who undertake a medical degree in the UK have paid to undertake an academic degree course. This does not mean they then have the right to remain resident and work here according to the new laws. If an overseas student undertook a degree in Architecture, this would not give them the right to employment and UK residency after their course had finished. It is now no different for international medical students. The UK government have responded in the same manner as most governments would do. We have a surplus of UK resident medical graduates and to protect their employment & postgraduate training interests they are restricting access to medical posts.

I am sure IMGs with reasons to emigrate to the UK (eg marriage) can still apply for residency in the UK and then apply for the appropriate work permits.

Hope that helps. I am not a lawyer so maybe best check with one so as to be aware of your options. I am sure the UK Embassy can help as well. Of course things can change in the future.

 

[Kev (UK)]

Thanks for the info Kev. Why such a surplus of doctors in the UK? Are there just too many foreign graduates or are there too many students enrolled in UK medical schools? The job market works in cycles, so if there is a surplus right now, in couple years there should be a real need for physicians.

I am not entirely sure. I think it is a combination of several factors:
new specialist training scheme
too many overseas doctors
working time directives

There are new medical schools (4) with an increase in numbers over the next few years of medical graduates, so I think they may be preparing for that increase by restricting IMG's access to higher level training?

 

[dr strangelove]

Theres been a change in the handling of work-permits. Apparently International students are not assured a position after their F1/F2 years.

Article at http://www.medical-student.co.uk/

That kind of enrages me; I'll be heading off to the UK in a couple years and will have to decide if I will be staying over there or heading back to the States. This limits my options -- what do you guys think?

I posted an article about this several weeks ago.

Why should it outrage you; the UK is simply looking after its own first. It's far more outrageous when a country (e.g. Ireland) has a huge number of medical places for foreign students and consequently, when there's a shortfall of doctors resorts to importing them from Africa and Asia. The UK is simply putting laws in place to make sure there are sufficient British/European doctors to treat British/European people. I admire the stance they're taking.

The only thing I disagree with is the timing of the proposal. It is extremely unfair on foreign students that have already started their courses and will now suffer because of this ruling. I'm in favour of a complete amnesty for existing foreign medical students in British medical schools as I'm sure they would have reconsidered their decision to come here if they knew this were to be the case.

 

[omniatlas]

I think it is fine for institutions to have bias for their own graduates (just like when it comes to match in the USA you'll be ranked on the basis American Graduate > IMG > FMG). However, if you've already been accepted into a UK institution and you're paying astronomical tuition fees, don't you think you should at least have the same equal footing as the other graudates? You should already have passed the hurdle and finding a job should be based on your merit, not because you hold a certain type of passport. Don't you see this as a kind of discrimination?

In the USA, if you've been accepted to a medical school ALL students have the ability to match into a residency program regardless of what race/creed/country you come from.

If there is such a problem with a surplus of international students, then the UK medical schools should limit the # of international students entering their program. However, those already in the program or matriculating into one should be on an equal footing with all other medical students.

I posted an article about this several weeks ago.

Why should it outrage you; the UK is simply looking after its own first. It's far more outrageous when a country (e.g. Ireland) has a huge number of medical places for foreign students and consequently, when there's a shortfall of doctors resorts to importing them from Africa and Asia. The UK is simply putting laws in place to make sure there are sufficient British/European doctors to treat British/European people. I admire the stance they're taking.

The only thing I disagree with is the timing of the proposal. It is extremely unfair on foreign students that have already started their courses and will now suffer because of this ruling. I'm in favour of a complete amnesty for existing foreign medical students in British medical schools as I'm sure they would have reconsidered their decision to come here if they knew this were to be the case.

 

[shetland]

I think it is fine for institutions to have bias for their own graduates (just like when it comes to match in the USA you'll be ranked on the basis American Graduate > IMG > FMG). However, if you've already been accepted into a UK institution and you're paying astronomical tuition fees, don't you think you should at least have the same equal footing as the other graudates? You should already have passed the hurdle and finding a job should be based on your merit, not because you hold a certain type of passport. Don't you see this as a kind of discrimination?

In the USA, if you've been accepted to a medical school ALL students have the ability to match into a residency program regardless of what race/creed/country you come from.

If there is such a problem with a surplus of international students, then the UK medical schools should limit the # of international graduates. However, those already in the program or matriculating into one should be on an equal footing with all other medical students.

Hi

Are you saying that a British student that graduated from a US medical school have "equal footing" with an American medical graduate (both graduate from the same school) for a spot in residency? I feel it is hard to believe beacuse an international US medical graduate would have to apply for work visa and to get the affliated hospital to process the paper work.

I dont think its discrimitory for the British to favour their own citizens for residencies. But I do agree with the previous post about how it is unfair for the current international medicalgraduates who had no warning of these changes.

 

[waq007]

Hi

Are you saying that a British student that graduated from a US medical school have "equal footing" with an American medical graduate (both graduate from the same school) for a spot in residency? I feel it is hard to believe beacuse an international US medical graduate would have to apply for work visa and to get the affliated hospital to process the paper work.

I dont think its discrimitory for the British to favour their own citizens for residencies. But I do agree with the previous post about how it is unfair for the current international medicalgraduates who had no warning of these changes.

actually it doesnt really matter what medschool u graduate from, if ur from asia/india/uk/or us itself. residency is given on merit almost entirely on ur usmle scores. if this wasn't the case then how would u explain a caribbean med school, Ross University, would have the highest matching rate of any university (i think this was last yr's stats) including domestic med schools. if someone is qualified, is studying in a medschool, they should be ALLOWED to practice in that SAME country if they so choose to. ethics question here, is it morally acceptable to charge an individual a higher tuition fee and handicap them at the same time. if you dont want IMGs to practice, don't allow them into the school and dont eat up all their international tuition lol

 

[omniatlas]

actually it doesnt really matter what medschool u graduate from, if ur from asia/india/uk/or us itself. residency is given on merit almost entirely on ur usmle scores. if this wasn't the case then how would u explain a caribbean med school, Ross University, would have the highest matching rate of any university (i think this was last yr's stats) including domestic med schools. if someone is qualified, is studying in a medschool, they should be ALLOWED to practice in that SAME country if they so choose to. ethics question here, is it morally acceptable to charge an individual a higher tuition fee and handicap them at the same time. if you dont want IMGs to practice, don't allow them into the school and dont eat up all their international tuition lol

This is exactly why the U.S brings out the best physicians. When the system is based on merit and not networking/hidden bias (not very hidden now is it) mediocrity is out of the window.

 

[johnny_blaze]

actually it doesnt really matter what medschool u graduate from, if ur from asia/india/uk/or us itself. residency is given on merit almost entirely on ur usmle scores. if this wasn't the case then how would u explain a caribbean med school, Ross University, would have the highest matching rate of any university (i think this was last yr's stats) including domestic med schools. if someone is qualified, is studying in a medschool, they should be ALLOWED to practice in that SAME country if they so choose to. ethics question here, is it morally acceptable to charge an individual a higher tuition fee and handicap them at the same time. if you dont want IMGs to practice, don't allow them into the school and dont eat up all their international tuition lol

Visa issues apply to all aspects of work for foreigners in the U.K, why should medicine be any different? A lot of foreign grads train in the U.K with the intention of going back home. With job opportunities open to ALL EU graduates, something needs to be done or else medicine in the U.K will be over saturated. From the perspective of an England grad, I’m glad these new rules are in place.

 

[Kev (UK)]

is it morally acceptable to charge an individual a higher tuition fee and handicap them at the same time. if you dont want IMGs to practice, don't allow them into the school and dont eat up all their international tuition lol

Yes it is justifiable. International students pay the going rate for the degree course. UK students pay much less as their course fees are primarily paid by the government, using tax payers money. UK students only pay a token part of the fees. Obviously foreign students are not entitled to such a subsidy, so pay much more. Rightly so.

Neither are foreign students being "handicapped". They are purchasing an educational course, not UK residency. There is no "right" to reside in the UK after they graduate.

The UK's need for overseas doctors has fallen markedly in recent years so UK immigration law is responsive to this. UK & EEA residents need to be employed. Only if posts can not be filled by them will it now be possible to grant a work permit for an a foreign doctor. This seems a sensible policy.

The expectation is that once international students graduate they will then return to their home country to practice medicine, or else apply for a UK work visa just like anyone else, should a vacancy be found for them. I don't think the UK is any different to any other western country in this respect.

Students who choose to study overseas need to consider the implications of doing so very carefully.

 

[Mr. McDuck]

It makes sense to me. I plan on going to school in Ireland, and it would have been nice to know that if I decided to stay I could actually get a position, but I can understand perfectly the reasoning behind this. It certainly doesn't affect my desire to study there.

 

[Kev (UK)]

It makes sense to me. I plan on going to school in Ireland, and it would have been nice to know that if I decided to stay I could actually get a position, but I can understand perfectly the reasoning behind this. It certainly doesn't affect my desire to study there.

Ireland is not part of the UK so I have no idea what their immigration policy is. Perhaps they allow foreign students to remain & work after graduation?

 

[Mr. McDuck]

Yeah, I know it is not part of the UK. I should have clarified. I was told that the situation in Ireland is very similar to the UK regarding non-EU graduates to get positions after the Foundation years.