UCSD vs. Wayne (full-tuition)

[shine with me]

*Edited 4/20 with final decision: Thank you all so much for your responses and thoughts! I really appreciate it and after a ton of thought, I think I'm going to bite the financial bullet and go UCSD. Overall, I got a wonderful vibe/fit at UCSD's Second Look that was consistent with my interview day. Plus, UCSD checks ALL of my boxes (and more!), except for money. At this point and having weighed my options, I think that, even with the higher upfront cost, what UCSD offers is more than enough for me and that I can look back in 5-10 years without regret about this decision. Again, thanks so much and best of luck to all of you!

--

Hey all! I'm really grateful to have had a successful (re-)application cycle and I've narrowed my choices down to three schools, UCSD, Wayne State, and Minnesota. I'm leaning towards UCSD but because of Wayne's and Minnesota's full-tuition offers, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I've listed the key pros/cons below.

Career goals: most likely a surgical specialty (based on shadowing and research experiences) with global health emphasis; perhaps academic medicine. Unsure where I'd like to settle for residency geographically; California is quite tempting, although parents/family is in upper Midwest.

UCSD

Pros
+ Early and sustained clinical exposure in pre-clinical years
+ 7-week pre-matriculation program (important for me since I really want that extra transition time)
+ Quite varied patient population, especially with Naval Center, immigrant populations, Native American reservations, etc.
+ Formal global health track and multiple global health opportunities (update, 4/19: accepted into Global Health Academic Concentration!)
+ From speaking with current students, there seems to be a very solid support network from faculty and staff (ie, mentorship, advising)
+ Premier free clinic program
+ Academic houses and Big Sibs program
+ Smaller class size than Wayne
+ Opportunities to utilize Spanish and other foreign languages
+ Higher average Step 1 and 2 scores than Wayne
+ Greater prestige for residency directors (unsure on this one, please advise)
+ Match list had more surgical specialties represented

Cons
– CoA over 4 years ~$250k (OOS, all loans, based on financial aid estimate)
– Tied in with above: high cost of living
– Far from family (all in the Midwest)
– Have to uproot; logistical considerations for moving 2/3 across country
– However unlikely, as I detest the cold, maybe I'll miss the snow/four seasons?
​

Wayne State

Pros
+ CoA over 4 years ~$90k (IS, full-tuition scholarship, so only have to worry about housing/food/transportation)
+ Focus on urban health
+ Varied patient population (perhaps not as much as UCSD but still, quite diverse)
+ Perhaps much more experience available during rotations (based on posts like these)
+ Students seemed happy and relaxed during interview day
+ Solid student orgs; many opportunities to connect with and learn from the community
+ Won't have to move far
+ Close to parents/family

Cons
– No pre-matriculation program
– Large class. Some current students were fine with it; I'm worried about feeling disconnected from my classmates
– Wasn't clear on how much direct clinical exposure available in M1/M2
– Match list had fewer surgical subspecialties and most seemed to place in Michigan or Midwest
– Have not found a formal global health track
– Not as much of a chance to use Spanish
– Academic houses will be started this year so not as well-established as UCSD's
​

Minnesota

Pros
+ CoA over 4 years ~$100k (OOS, full-tuition scholarship + non-resident tuition waiver, so only have to worry about housing/food/transportation)
+ Option to focus on rural health and/or underserved
+ Varied patient population (perhaps not as much as UCSD but still, quite diverse)
+ Solid student orgs; many opportunities to connect with and learn from the community
+ Strong global health program (at least on paper)
+ FlexMD option!
+ Won't have to move far
+ Closer to parents/family than San Diego

Cons
– No pre-matriculation program; one-week course with study skills
– Large class size
– Loooong day, with classes sometimes all day (8am-5pm, even with breaks)
– It's cold. It's so cold, for so long, lol and I thrive in warmer climates...
– Medical school and larger university seem to be having some worries, exemplified by rankings that "tumbled"; not sure what that could entail for students
​

Summary: So, I really love what UCSD has to offer but I'm not sure if I'm overlooking the cost of attendance or other aspects, especially when compared with Wayne's or Minnesota's full tuition offer. Minnesota was really off my radar until I received the scholarship--very grateful for the opportunity.

I attended second look for both UCSD and Wayne. I could not attend Minnesota's since it was the same day as Wayne's, so I'd appreciate any input from current Minnesota students.

Comments/advice are greatly appreciated; please share rationale when possible. Thanks so much for your time!

--

*Edited 4/19 to add in Minnesota full-tuition + non-resident waiver offer

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[wagonwheel23]

Based on your career goals, UCSD is the better option. The loans are a lot, but you'll likely come out far ahead in terms of your career.

I moved from the midwest to California and never looked back. Also, there is so much to do and see there. It is a fantastic place for your family and friends to visit!

Congratulations on your success.

 

[libertyyne]

If you want Academic Medicine, UCSD is probably a better option.

 

[sammiesings]

I'm in a similar position to you ($$$ from Wayne) but with not as excellent a second choice (Dartmouth vs your UCSD).

I'm not sure what I'm going to do, but I'm also not sure what you should do- so unhelpful lol! But I'll be following your journey to see where you end up!

Quick question: would you mind sharing (PM if its more comfortable) average step scores for Wayne and their match list (I assume you're referring to 2017 match list as I know 2016 is online). Thank you!!

 

[Astra]

post a X vs Y thread @sammiesings ( but I'd go dartmouth)


OP, how certain are you on academic medicine? If you're not that sure, I'd go to Wayne if they have home residency programs for what you wanna do, good research opportunities, and good clinical years.

 

[shine with me]

Based on your career goals, UCSD is the better option. The loans are a lot, but you'll likely come out far ahead in terms of your career.

I moved from the midwest to California and never looked back. Also, there is so much to do and see there. It is a fantastic place for your family and friends to visit!

Congratulations on your success.

Thank you! That's good to know. I keep trying to justify to myself that, even if I'm taking on substantially more debt, it'll be worth it in the long run. Yet, I worry about minimizing that factor so I'm grateful to hear additional thoughts on it.

Haha, so true: whenever I mentioned UCSD to family/friends/coworkers, to a one they mention (within 30 seconds) about what a hardship it would be to have constantly warm weather and/or to have the beach a stone's throw away...

Did you move to CA for med school? What factors made you 'never look back'? Also, if UCSD is where I end up, I may PM you details about moving (if you don't mind ).

 

[shine with me]

If you want Academic Medicine, UCSD is probably a better option.

Thank you! What factors/characteristics are you considering when you say this? (Ie, mainly total research dollars? Available faculty?) My gut agrees with you but I'm having some difficulty describing why with any eloquence .

P.S. I think I've seen you on other threads as well; congrats on a successful cycle!!

 

[shine with me]

I'm in a similar position to you ($$$ from Wayne) but with not as excellent a second choice (Dartmouth vs your UCSD).
I'm not sure what I'm going to do, but I'm also not sure what you should do- so unhelpful lol! But I'll be following your journey to see where you end up!

Quick question: would you mind sharing (PM if its more comfortable) average step scores for Wayne and their match list (I assume you're referring to 2017 match list as I know 2016 is online). Thank you!!

Haha, no worries! Congrats on your success as well! If this helps as you make your decision, I keep reminding myself that whichever one I end up choosing:

1. We got in!
2. They're both schools that graduate outstanding physicians
3. This is a very good 'problem' to have

As for Wayne's average step scores and match list:

• I had found publicly available average step scores here (pdf here), here, and here; yes, they're older so if anyone has more recent data and is allowed to share it, that'd be awesome.
• I couldn't find the 2017 match list online.
• I also took into account specialty choice as listed in MSAR from this past year, MSAR 2012-2013, and MSAR 2013-2014 (I have the old books).

 

[libertyyne]

Thanks, I spend way to much time on here. I am grateful for a good cycle.

1. Ranking and PD perception.
UCSD is ranked higher. As stupid as this sounds, it seems like for academic programs this is a consideration. The fact that "Academic " residencies tend to match heavily from " top 20 " or so institutions should tilt your decision.
2. The global health and early clinical Exposure.
These seem like important considerations to you.
3. Wayne's strength is in clinical exposure not creating academic doctors.

Full disclosure I was accepted to Wayne, I do not have a full ride though.

 

[shine with me]

post a X vs Y thread @sammiesings ( but I'd go dartmouth)


OP, how certain are you on academic medicine? If you're not that sure, I'd go to Wayne if they have home residency programs for what you wanna do, good research opportunities, and good clinical years.

That's a good question. I do want to have an aspect of medical education/teaching and research in my career; I really enjoy both, especially teaching. However, I also want to maintain ≥50% of my time for seeing patients and other clinical responsibilities (one can dream). Yet, I know this may change during med school. I just don't want to close the door prematurely; does that make sense?

And yes, Wayne had home residencies in the main surgical specialties I'm considering... so yeah, a bit of a dilemma, haha.

 

[libertyyne]

Haha, no worries! Congrats on your success as well! If this helps as you make your decision, I keep reminding myself that whichever one I end up choosing:

1. We got in!
2. They're both schools that graduate outstanding physicians
3. This is a very good 'problem' to have

As for Wayne's average step scores and match list:

• I had found publicly available average step scores here (pdf here), here, and here; yes, they're older so if anyone has more recent data and is allowed to share it, that'd be awesome.
• I couldn't find the 2017 match list online.
• I also took into account specialty choice as listed in MSAR from this past year, MSAR 2012-2013, and MSAR 2013-2014 (I have the old books).

I do think somethign you are missing though is that the Step scores of a class are also directly correlated to the MCAT score of the incoming class, so if UCSD has higher MCAT scores , higher Step scores are to be expected as well. Its not like they have a special sauce. That being said, I do think wayne's curriculum needs an upgrade. Also, regarding surgical specialties, it seems like wayne does a decent job at placement in surgical specialities. Is there a particular one you are concerned with?

Home programs in the specialty you are looking at are also a large consideration.

 

[Astra]

That's a good question. I do want to have an aspect of medical education/teaching and research in my career; I really enjoy both, especially teaching. However, I also want to maintain ≥50% of my time for seeing patients and other clinical responsibilities (one can dream). Yet, I know this may change during med school. I just don't want to close the door prematurely; does that make sense?

And yes, Wayne had home residencies in the main surgical specialties I'm considering... so yeah, a bit of a dilemma, haha.

honestly ask yourself if academic medicine is something you MUST have in your future career. If not, then go to Wayne. that 260k debt is enough to buy a house, kids' college, jumpstart on savings etc.

What you lose in terms of academic freedom, you gain back in financial freedom. You'll be able to take days off work at your own leisure, spend more money on things you like etc. because you don't have loan repayments hanging over you.

Cali is more expensive and academic medicine pays less than private practice. So you'll be even more pinched financially.

 

[shine with me]

Thanks, I spend way to much time on here. I am grateful for a good cycle.

1. Ranking and PD perception.
UCSD is ranked higher. As stupid as this sounds, it seems like for academic programs this is a consideration. The fact that "Academic " residencies tend to match heavily from " top 20 " or so institutions should tilt your decision.
2. The global health and early clinical Exposure.
These seem like important considerations to you.
3. Wayne's strength is in clinical exposure not creating academic doctors.

Full disclosure I was accepted to Wayne, I do not have a full ride though.

Ah, that makes sense. In some ways, it is a little frustrating that the USNWR ranking can play such a large role in these decisions but it is what it is, I guess. Your third point sums it up quite nicely.

I do think somethign you are missing though is that the Step scores of a class are also directly correlated to the MCAT score of the incoming class, so if UCSD has higher MCAT scores , higher Step scores are to be expected as well. Its not like they have a special sauce. That being said, I do think wayne's curriculum needs an upgrade.

Your first part is very true, so while I'm considering Step scores, I'm not weighing them too heavily in my decision. One difference I have noted when talking with current UCSD students is that they seem to have a more active Office of Educational Support Services when it comes to Step 1 support/resources. Then again, that could just be my perception.

 

[libertyyne]

Ah, that makes sense. In some ways, it is a little frustrating that the USNWR ranking can play such a large role in these decisions but it is what it is, I guess. Your third point sums it up quite nicely.


Your first part is very true, so while I'm considering Step scores, I'm not weighing them too heavily in my decision. One difference I have noted when talking with current UCSD students is that they seem to have a more active Office of Educational Support Services when it comes to Step 1 support/resources. Then again, that could just be my perception.

Wayne also purchases prep material for you, and all the bloc tests are administered in the fashion of boards. SO there is plenty of practice. Wayne does take students that have lower mcat/gpa combo's so obviously there is some difference in the caliber of student.


One thing that wayne also does well is leaving students alone, lectures for the most part are not mandatory, so you are free to figure out what way you learn best. Compared to forced TBL stuff that may seem good but may become a huge timesuck when time gets scarce.

 

[shine with me]

honestly ask yourself if academic medicine is something you MUST have in your future career. If not, then go to Wayne. that 260k debt is enough to buy a house, kids' college, jumpstart on savings etc.

What you lose in terms of academic freedom, you gain back financially. You'll be able to take days off work at your own leisure, spend more money on things you like etc. because you don't have loan repayments hanging over you.

Cali is more expensive and academic medicine pays less than private practice. So you'll be even more pinched financially.

Quite fair: I've been considering the first point more and more frequently in the past few months. At this point in my life, yes, I would want to have some connection to academic medicine. As I mentioned, I'm just unsure if thinking that right now will substantially block me in the future.

And yes, the cost of living in CA is more expensive; but if I do decide to go private practice, I would be able to pay back that debt more quickly; granted, I'll have had the debt in the first place. Aaand, I'm back to the beginning!

 

[shine with me]

Wayne also purchases prep material for you, and all the bloc tests are administered in the fashion of boards. SO there is plenty of practice. Wayne does take students that have lower mcat/gpa combo's so obviously there is some difference in the caliber of student.


One thing that wayne also does well is leaving students alone, lectures for the most part are not mandatory, so you are free to figure out what way you learn best. Compared to forced TBL stuff that may seem good but may become a huge timesuck when time gets scarce.

Exactly; hence one facet of my dilemma

As for independent time: have you found/are you aware of a typical weekly schedule for Wayne pre-clinical students? UCSD has one here and I've spoken with current MS1 and MS2 who've confirmed that they're frequently done at 12 noon multiple times a week, leaving them the rest of the day for studying/volunteering/taking a breather/etc.

 

[libertyyne]

Exactly; hence one facet of my dilemma

As for independent time: have you found/are you aware of a typical weekly schedule for Wayne pre-clinical students? UCSD has one here and I've spoken with current MS1 and MS2 who've confirmed that they're frequently done at 12 noon multiple times a week, leaving them the rest of the day for studying/volunteering/taking a breather/etc.

Year 1 Course Schedule

This is all I have.

 

[wagonwheel23]

@shine with me I know how scary the debt is. I'm looking at a hefty number myself.

I moved to northern California after college. I am a non-trad that has lived here for 7 years but will be relocating to the east coast for medical school. However, my medical school sends a lot of students to California residencies so I'll be (hopefully) back in a few years.

Here are a few things that made me fall hopelessly in love with California: the weather, access to outdoors, LGBT life, food quality (both produce and restaurants). I think people in the midwest are nicer, but it is harder to be nicer than midwesterners!

Yes, please PM me if you decide on UCSD. Good luck!

 

[shine with me]

Year 1 Course Schedule

This is all I have.

Hey, I'll take it; helps with a more long-term view, thank you!

Also, I piggybacked and searched off your link: just found this which has some WSU student examples on pp. 10, 16, and 20. (Nothing like trawling through med school websites...)

Edit: here and here are the parent pages.

 

[shine with me]

@shine with me I know how scary the debt is. I'm looking at a hefty number myself.

I moved to northern California after college. I am a non-trad that has lived here for 7 years but will be relocating to the east coast for medical school. However, my medical school sends a lot of students to California residencies so I'll be (hopefully) back in a few years.

Here are a few things that made me fall hopelessly in love with California: the weather, access to outdoors, LGBT life, food quality (both produce and restaurants). I think people in the midwest are nicer, but it is harder to be nicer than midwesterners!

Yes, please PM me if you decide on UCSD. Good luck!

Congrats and best of luck to you as well!! Here's to hoping you end up at the residency program you want in a few years.

Thank you kindly; shall do

 

[order66.exe]

OP I made a similar decision last year and chose the cheaper school. As alluring as life is at a more prestigious school in socal, the idea that going to a lower ranked school will knock you out from pursuing academics, certain specialties or global medicine is nonsense. Does it make some difference going to a higher ranked school? Yes I'm sure. But it also makes a difference to not have 200,000 of debt accruing at 5% interest over the next 8 years. I've been very happy not having a financial chain around my neck especially during the more difficult parts of school so far.

What I would recommend would be to speak to academic docs who have taken on similar debt levels and see what they say about what you should do. SDN is a prestige oriented place so its best not to get caught up in an echo chamber.

 

[LePepe]

honestly ask yourself if academic medicine is something you MUST have in your future career. If not, then go to Wayne. that 260k debt is enough to buy a house, kids' college, jumpstart on savings etc.

What you lose in terms of academic freedom, you gain back in financial freedom. You'll be able to take days off work at your own leisure, spend more money on things you like etc. because you don't have loan repayments hanging over you.

Cali is more expensive and academic medicine pays less than private practice. So you'll be even more pinched financially.

UCSD actually has pretty cheap subsidized housing for graduate students (something like $550/month). Spacious rooms, too.

But yeah, a full tuition scholarship is ridiculous. I would take that in a heartbeat.

 

[Redpancreas]

Hey all! I'm really grateful to have had a successful (re-)application cycle and I've narrowed my choices down to two schools, UCSD and Wayne State. I'm leaning towards UCSD but because of Wayne's full-tuition offer, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I've listed the key pros/cons below.

Career goals: most likely a surgical specialty (based on shadowing and research experiences) with global health emphasis; perhaps academic medicine. Unsure where I'd like to settle for residency geographically; California is quite tempting, although parents/family is in upper Midwest.

UCSD

Pros
+ Early and sustained clinical exposure in pre-clinical years
+ 7-week pre-matriculation program (important for me since I really want that extra transition time)
+ Quite varied patient population, especially with Naval Center, immigrant populations, Native American reservations, etc.
+ Formal global health track and multiple global health opportunities
+ From speaking with current students, there seems to be a very solid support network from faculty and staff (ie, mentorship, advising)
+ Premier free clinic program
+ Academic houses and Big Sibs program
+ Smaller class size than Wayne
+ Opportunities to utilize Spanish and other foreign languages
+ Higher average Step 1 and 2 scores than Wayne
+ Greater prestige for residency directors (unsure on this one, please advise)
+ Match list had more surgical specialties represented

Cons
– CoA over 4 years ~$260k (OOS, all loans, based on financial aid estimate)
– Tied in with above: high cost of living
– Far from family (all in the Midwest)
– Have to uproot; logistical considerations for moving 2/3 across country
– However unlikely, as I detest the cold, maybe I'll miss the snow/four seasons?
​

Wayne State

Pros
+ CoA over 4 years ~$90k (IS, full-tuition scholarship, so only have to worry about housing/food/transportation)
+ Focus on urban health
+ Varied patient population (perhaps not as much as UCSD but still, quite diverse)
+ Perhaps much more experience available during rotations (based on posts like these)
+ Students seemed happy and relaxed during interview day
+ Solid student orgs; many opportunities to connect with and learn from the community
+ Won't have to move far
+ Close to parents/family

Cons
– No pre-matriculation program
– Large class. Some current students were fine with it; I'm worried about feeling disconnected from my classmates
– Wasn't clear on how much direct clinical exposure available in M1/M2
– Match list had fewer surgical subspecialties and most seemed to place in Michigan or Midwest
– Have not found a formal global health track
– Not as much of a chance to use Spanish
– Academic houses will be started this year so not as well-established as UCSD's
​

Summary: So, I really love what UCSD has to offer but I'm not sure if I'm overlooking the cost of attendance or other aspects, especially when compared with Wayne's full tuition offer. I will be attending second look for both schools.

Comments/advice are greatly appreciated; please share rationale when possible. Thanks so much for your time!

I don't want to insult you with this question so I'll qualify this by saying I didn't know anything about what academic medicine meant as a M0. How serious are you about academic medicine? I feel it's hard to believe that you're dedicated to it. If you are, UCSD is likely the better opportunity because prestige is the huge component in academic medicine. I denied a few schools that cost 50k to come to Wayne for a much cheaper price tag and now as I look at the match lists, there are some significant differences between Wayne and those schools.

I would say come to Wayne but I don't know how committed the academic medicine you are and that's the biggest question.


In terms of prestige with residency directors I think Wayne students are pretty awesome and students come back from interviews telling us lots of people had questions about Detroit and had nice things to say. Now that may seem laughable as I'm sure UCSD kids probably have similar things to brag about but I will maintain that Wayne seems like a pretty unique school to come to and I don't think it has a poor reputation among PDs.

 

[prayer525]

,

 

[Soccer55]

Have you had any luck/tried to email UCSD about matching your Wayne scholarship?

 

[shine with me]

OP I made a similar decision last year and chose the cheaper school. As alluring as life is at a more prestigious school in socal, the idea that going to a lower ranked school will knock you out from pursuing academics, certain specialties or global medicine is nonsense. Does it make some difference going to a higher ranked school? Yes I'm sure. But it also makes a difference to not have 200,000 of debt accruing at 5% interest over the next 8 years. I've been very happy not having a financial chain around my neck especially during the more difficult parts of school so far.

What I would recommend would be to speak to academic docs who have taken on similar debt levels and see what they say about what you should do. SDN is a prestige oriented place so its best not to get caught up in an echo chamber.

Absolutely: I'm certainly not implying that going to a lower-ranked school will close the door on academic medicine/specialization/global medicine, which is why I'm thinking of those simply as considerations, not the end-all-and-be-all of my decision. Your point about the debt is a very important one, and my main sticking point, so I appreciate you sharing your experiences.

Thank you for your advice. I've been talking with physicians I've shadowed or who have mentored me (all specialists) and they're kind of evenly split. About half are saying it's worth it and the other basically say take the money and run :-/

 

[shine with me]

UCSD actually has pretty cheap subsidized housing for graduate students (something like $550/month). Spacious rooms, too.

But yeah, a full tuition scholarship is ridiculous. I would take that in a heartbeat.

Yes, thank you! I learned about subsidized housing at second look as well, so you're quite right about it being cheap and roomier than I'd expected.

Gah, I feel ya. I'm now staring down a full tuition scholarship from Minnesota as well, so this situation has become even more interesting...

 

[shine with me]

I don't want to insult you with this question so I'll qualify this by saying I didn't know anything about what academic medicine meant as a M0. How serious are you about academic medicine? I feel it's hard to believe that you're dedicated to it. If you are, UCSD is likely the better opportunity because prestige is the huge component in academic medicine. I denied a few schools that cost 50k to come to Wayne for a much cheaper price tag and now as I look at the match lists, there are some significant differences between Wayne and those schools.

I would say come to Wayne but I don't know how committed the academic medicine you are and that's the biggest question.

In terms of prestige with residency directors I think Wayne students are pretty awesome and students come back from interviews telling us lots of people had questions about Detroit and had nice things to say. Now that may seem laughable as I'm sure UCSD kids probably have similar things to brag about but I will maintain that Wayne seems like a pretty unique school to come to and I don't think it has a poor reputation among PDs.

No offense taken and thank you for your post! I'm now fairly certain about academic medicine, having shadowed physicians both in and out of that sphere, having done significant research, and really loving teaching/education.

You're definitely right, at least based on my experiences at Second Look. Students, faculty, and alumni all echoed that Wayne is definitely one of the best places to see a whole spectrum of conditions, be an active part of the medical team, and get some phenomenal training. As I'm a pretty hands-on learner, this appealed to me but now I'm deciding if this will sway me to Wayne.

 

[shine with me]

Have you had any luck/tried to email UCSD about matching your Wayne scholarship?

I've contacted them but haven't heard anything back yet; I think they're planning to let students know before the 4/30 deadline, though. Fingers crossed that's for sure

 

[coffeeandcodeine]

Hey congrats on your acceptances! I remember seeing you around the school-specific threads at the beginning of the cycle, I'm so glad to hear that things went really well! My suggestion is that if you're really interested in surgery and academic medicine, you should strongly consider UCSD despite the higher cost. Academic programs tend to value the reputation of your medical school more than non-academic ones. But if you think you'd be happy going into a different practice setting, like private practice, take one of the full tuition scholarships and run!

 

[shine with me]

Hey congrats on your acceptances! I remember seeing you around the school-specific threads at the beginning of the cycle, I'm so glad to hear that things went really well! My suggestion is that if you're really interested in surgery and academic medicine, you should strongly consider UCSD despite the higher cost. Academic programs tend to value the reputation of your medical school more than non-academic ones. But if you think you'd be happy going into a different practice setting, like private practice, take one of the full tuition scholarships and run!

Awwww, thank you!!! That's some great advice. It looks like you've had some fantastic success this cycle as well: congrats!!

 

[deev04]

Minnesota!! If you are interested in global/public health (I see you did a MPH) Minnesota is an incredible place to be. They have one of the best public health schools in the country and churn out amazing research public health/clinical research and are especially strong in immigrant health and global health. The patient population in Twin Cities is incredible, arguably more diverse than San Diego with immigrant/refugee populations from all corners of the globe (and ones that are not common throughout the rest of the US, e.g. Hmong, Somali).

Even with Mayo Clinic also in MN, UM has top caliber clinical and research programs and your clinical experience and research opportunities will rival any top school (and definitely UCSD). Its presence and prestige throughout the rest of the state also provides a cool opportunity for rural/underserved medicine.

I think the 160k(+interest) extra in debt is really the biggest deal though. Even without the money, I don't think UCSD has a clear advantage over UM and it would come down to personal preference/circumstances. UCSD is probably slightly more well known nationally and ranked higher, but I don't think the difference in ranking amounts to a significant advantage. There also doesn't seem to be anything on your list of pros about UCSD or cons for UM that seems worthy of that 160k. 260k(+interest) in debt is getting into the range where students feel the need to make difficult decisions about specialty, location, lifestyle, etc. based on $$$/loan repayment. That sounds like a bad place to be.

UCSD: The transition to medical school is rough and hard with or without a pre-matriculation program because of the sheer volume of material that needs to be covered. You will learn and adapt like everyone else. If anything, a pre-matriculation program just prevents you from enjoying your last weeks of freedom. The free clinic and clinical exposure are small details, and UM almost certainly has similar things. You also might have just heard more about support structures at UCSD (since you didn't go to UM 2nd look) and I'd imagine UM has similar programs. Step 1 and Match outcomes are dependent on the student more than the school.

UM: You will be studying (inside). When you are not studying you will be on rotations all day (inside). When you get breaks, you can fly to Cabo with the extra money you now have.

Disclaimer: I've never even been to Minnesota.

 

[shine with me]

Minnesota!! If you are interested in global/public health (I see you did a MPH) Minnesota is an incredible place to be. They have one of the best public health schools in the country and churn out amazing research public health/clinical research and are especially strong in immigrant health and global health. The patient population in Twin Cities is incredible, arguably more diverse than San Diego with immigrant/refugee populations from all corners of the globe (and ones that are not common throughout the rest of the US, e.g. Hmong, Somali).

Even with Mayo Clinic also in MN, UM has top caliber clinical and research programs and your clinical experience and research opportunities will rival any top school (and definitely UCSD). Its presence and prestige throughout the rest of the state also provides a cool opportunity for rural/underserved medicine.

I think the 160k(+interest) extra in debt is really the biggest deal though. Even without the money, I don't think UCSD has a clear advantage over UM and it would come down to personal preference/circumstances. UCSD is probably slightly more well known nationally and ranked higher, but I don't think the difference in ranking amounts to a significant advantage. There also doesn't seem to be anything on your list of pros about UCSD or cons for UM that seems worthy of that 160k. 260k(+interest) in debt is getting into the range where students feel the need to make difficult decisions about specialty, location, lifestyle, etc. based on $$$/loan repayment. That sounds like a bad place to be.

UCSD: The transition to medical school is rough and hard with or without a pre-matriculation program because of the sheer volume of material that needs to be covered. You will learn and adapt like everyone else. If anything, a pre-matriculation program just prevents you from enjoying your last weeks of freedom. The free clinic and clinical exposure are small details, and UM almost certainly has similar things. You also might have just heard more about support structures at UCSD (since you didn't go to UM 2nd look) and I'd imagine UM has similar programs. Step 1 and Match outcomes are dependent on the student more than the school.

UM: You will be studying (inside). When you are not studying you will be on rotations all day (inside). When you get breaks, you can fly to Cabo with the extra money you now have.

Disclaimer: I've never even been to Minnesota.

Haha at that Cabo bit I appreciate your insight and thoroughness, thank you! To each of your points:

Yes, Minnesota has a top-ranked public health program on paper and I was choosing between them and Michigan for my MPH. However, I didn't have a good experience at Admitted Student Day for Minnesota SPH and it's unfortunately soured my perception of their public health program's calibre. And since I now have an MPH, I'm more flexible about attending a med school where I can do cutting-edge public health research outside of a formal public health school.

I spoke with a number of students at UCSD's second look who did and did not take the pre-matriculation program to better gauge its worth. The consensus seemed to be: if you're not coming straight out of a degree program and want to take it, take it; if you don't, you'll still do fine. That being said, most explained that students who took the program had a better grasp of some of the most complex information, had a stronger network of people beginning med school, and were often tapped by non-pre-matriculation students to explain concepts/for study groups/etc. All of those I spoke to who took the program also said they had enough time to travel/explore/adventure even during it. I've also had this year of applying to work and take breaks, so I'm not as fatigued as if I'm coming right out of a degree program. Yes, I spoke with a current Minnesota student and they said there is basically an office of student support for tutoring, etc.

Clinical exposure is a big deal for me as I'm deciding because I'm more of a hands-on type learner and don't want to get bogged down for months without patient exposure, especially in the pre-clinical years. I've spoken with current students and recent graduates who went to programs with early and sustained clinical exposure overall; the majority had better and more enriching experiences than those who didn't. Yes, Minnesota does have the Phillips Free Clinic; while good, UCSD's free clinic is the largest I've seen for a medical school and really quite varied so that's why it's a pro for me. Along those lines, I got the impression that UCSD's dedication to the underserved is more formal by virtue of their PRIME program (ie, you can be assigned to a physician in an underserved area, you can take electives that put you right into the community to serve clinical or educational roles, etc.), whereas Minnesota's was less formal and more statewide, especially with their rural, Native American, and/or Somali-American communities (ie, you can seek out the opportunities but there aren't as many established pathways, from what I gathered).

Exactly: I'm asking myself if it's worth an extra $160k to go to a place where I had a better fit, will probably be happier over 4 years, and can really thrive based on that. Oh, and almost forgot: I learned at Second Look that I can become a CA resident after my first year so that will help mitigate some of the cost. When I decided on my MPH, I went to the program with a higher upfront cost because I had a better fit, felt like I vibed better with the students and faculty, and where I thought I could excel. Fortunately, that's exactly what happened and it's put me in a great spot now, so I'm (for better or worse) using that experience as a guide for my decision here.

 

[deev04]

I think fit and happiness are really important for medical school. Medical school is hard and setting yourself up for success means considering where you will have the opportunities to pursue opportunities that will excite you and make you happiest.

That said, unless you have a source of money to help for med school an extra 160k is an enormous amount of debt. If it was closer to 50-80k, I would still be saying I think you should think carefully (I don't personally see much of a difference) but in that situation, giving more weight to personal preference makes more sense. 260k becomes (400-500k+ potentially post-residency/fellowship).

I'm a nontrad, so I really hear you on the utility on the pre-matriculation program and I wish more schools offered one like UCSD. It sounds great. That said, you are thinking about making a decision worth 160k extra in debt. I don't think potentially feeling slightly less overwhelmed for the first few weeks is worth that. That's like 4 years of undergrad tuition. You will likely still feel up to your eyeballs in information and overwhelmed program or no program, so while it sounds great, I just can't bring myself to think it sounds 160k worth of great and will make a significant difference past the 8 week mark of medical school. It's normal to be nervous and apprehensive before medical school and even coming directly from undergrad, I don't know that anyone can truly be prepared.

The formalized pre-clinical curriculum will include early and often "clinical" exposure at both schools (clinical in quotes because this often takes many forms). This almost always runs alongside your basic science courses throughout the pre-clinical years and is the time when you are being taught hoe to interview patients and learning exams. You will frequently have standardized patients come in and will get to interview/examine them. This course is called all different things at diff schools, but you do get to use your hands for hands on learning throughout the pre-clinical years!

The free clinic and UCSD's commitment to the underserved also sounds incredible. UCSD really capitalizes on its location in its service to one of the most medically underserved populations in the US. But just because a free clinic is like "the" program (not the only one, but clearly given the size, one of their most emphasized programs) at a school, does not necessarily mean that your experience with another school's free clinic would be any less fulfilling or helpful in terms of your education. Maybe every student who participates in UM's free clinic can't speak highly enough of the program (even if less students participate). Maybe the fact that certain programs or advising relationships are not as formalized (which seems unclear-are you sure about this? or are you just less clear about UM's options?) makes faculty more excited when student reach out or participate in the free clinic (less students could mean more hands on experience).

Either way, I keep coming back to the 160k. Everything that you seem to have concerns about (early clinical exposure, free clinic) besides the matriculation program (which seems like a cool perk, but almost admittedly something that you will be fine without) is available at Minnesota. Maybe its slightly different, maybe its of a different quality (although this seems questionable), but paying 160k extra of debt to get a slightly different version of something that you can get at a fantastic school without a crippling debt burden seems worthy of a lot of consideration. Debt is a big way to unhappiness and this debt is a lot different than MPH debt. There is also likely information bias in that you loved and were happy with your MPH choice, but it's all you experienced! You might have loved Minnesota had you went there.

Have you been able to talk to Minnesota students? Admissions will often give out student emails for questions like these.

edit: embarrassed at how long this is. I obviously have no skin in this and if you love UCSD and think it's worth it, I'm so excited for you! You have great options!

 

[shine with me]

I think fit and happiness are really important for medical school. Medical school is hard and setting yourself up for success means considering where you will have the opportunities to pursue opportunities that will excite you and make you happiest.

That said, unless you have a source of money to help for med school an extra 160k is an enormous amount of debt. If it was closer to 50-80k, I would still be saying I think you should think carefully (I don't personally see much of a difference) but in that situation, giving more weight to personal preference makes more sense. 260k becomes (400-500k+ potentially post-residency/fellowship).

I'm a nontrad, so I really hear you on the utility on the pre-matriculation program and I wish more schools offered one like UCSD. It sounds great. That said, you are thinking about making a decision worth 160k extra in debt. I don't think potentially feeling slightly less overwhelmed for the first few weeks is worth that. That's like 4 years of undergrad tuition. You will likely still feel up to your eyeballs in information and overwhelmed program or no program, so while it sounds great, I just can't bring myself to think it sounds 160k worth of great and will make a significant difference past the 8 week mark of medical school. It's normal to be nervous and apprehensive before medical school and even coming directly from undergrad, I don't know that anyone can truly be prepared.

The formalized pre-clinical curriculum will include early and often "clinical" exposure at both schools (clinical in quotes because this often takes many forms). This almost always runs alongside your basic science courses throughout the pre-clinical years and is the time when you are being taught hoe to interview patients and learning exams. You will frequently have standardized patients come in and will get to interview/examine them. This course is called all different things at diff schools, but you do get to use your hands for hands on learning throughout the pre-clinical years!

The free clinic and UCSD's commitment to the underserved also sounds incredible. UCSD really capitalizes on its location in its service to one of the most medically underserved populations in the US. But just because a free clinic is like "the" program (not the only one, but clearly given the size, one of their most emphasized programs) at a school, does not necessarily mean that your experience with another school's free clinic would be any less fulfilling or helpful in terms of your education. Maybe every student who participates in UM's free clinic can't speak highly enough of the program (even if less students participate). Maybe the fact that certain programs or advising relationships are not as formalized (which seems unclear-are you sure about this? or are you just less clear about UM's options?) makes faculty more excited when student reach out or participate in the free clinic (less students could mean more hands on experience).

Either way, I keep coming back to the 160k. Everything that you seem to have concerns about (early clinical exposure, free clinic) besides the matriculation program (which seems like a cool perk, but almost admittedly something that you will be fine without) is available at Minnesota. Maybe its slightly different, maybe its of a different quality (although this seems questionable), but paying 160k extra of debt to get a slightly different version of something that you can get at a fantastic school without a crippling debt burden seems worthy of a lot of consideration. Debt is a big way to unhappiness and this debt is a lot different than MPH debt. There is also likely information bias in that you loved and were happy with your MPH choice, but it's all you experienced! You might have loved Minnesota had you went there.

Have you been able to talk to Minnesota students? Admissions will often give out student emails for questions like these.

Definitely, and I appreciate that it's different for everyone to weigh the tangible and intangible pros/cons. For me, at this point and after debating this for a long while, I think it's worth the upfront cost based mainly on what I've learned about the schools and a plethora of factors I've weighed, that intangible 'vibe' factor, and where I'd like to be in 10/20/30 years (and of course, the thoughts y'all have shared, thank you). And the big difference in debt load is precisely why I wanted to reach out and hear other people's views, just because it's been so tough in deciding.

Yes, I've spoken with current Minnesota students over the phone and it's been helpful to hear their experiences. (Note: I spoke with them before I got the scholarship offer.) While they clearly loved the school, it wasn't enough to sway me. I got the impression from them and from the interview day that there aren't as many formalized programs/mentorship for the underserved, but of course that could just be because they were MS1s or MS2s and simply hadn't had as much experience with Minnesota's underserved opportunities at the time. Since then, I've gone back and forth trying to get the pros at Minnesota to pull me in that direction and unfortunately it just hasn't been enough, gah (which is a problem I'm grateful to even have in the first place).

And, oh, yes, the counterfactual: yes, I may have had a great experience at Minnesota for the MPH but I didn't get that feel at the time when I had to make my decision on MN vs MI. Based on what I've accomplished since with the Michigan MPH, I'm really grateful that's where I ended up. Of course I'll never know what could have happened if I'd gone to Minnesota instead, but for me the question then was, "can I look back on this decision in X years and know that at the time I made the best decision possible for me and that I won't regret it?" The answer to that is an unequivocal yes, which is why I'm using that as a guide this time around, even though the degrees are different. Sure, if I'd gone to Minnesota I may then be able to say the same thing now but there's no way to ever know that. In contrast, for undergrad, the deciding factor was cost; I went the cheaper route instead of where I had a much better fit. Unfortunately it didn't work out very well (lot of bumps and concerns) so I used that experience to inform my MPH decision. That's part of why I'm hesitant to have the key deciding factor now be cost. Definitely not saying this approach is for everyone, though.

 

[deev04]

Excited for you! Enjoy the incredible weather and food!

Edit: the only other thing I would suggest if you have any doubts and are looking for more information is to play around with aamc's debt calculators and look at what those payments will look like. This also might be hard, but if you could find any young physicians to talk to who are grappling with this sort of debt burden and get their thoughts (maybe the MD forum?) about how manageable it is. Undergrad/Grad school debt is really of a different magnitude so its tough to judge from that and most physicians who graduated >10 years ago aren't facing what we're looking at now (>200k, inability to defer during residency (becoming 400-500k post-residency/fellowship), 6.8% interest, declining pay/reimbursement).

 

[shine with me]

Excited for you! Enjoy the incredible weather and food!

Edit: the only other thing I would suggest if you have any doubts and are looking for more information is to play around with aamc's debt calculators and look at what those payments will look like. This also might be hard, but if you could find any young physicians to talk to who are grappling with this sort of debt burden and get their thoughts (maybe the MD forum?) about how manageable it is. Undergrad/Grad school debt is really of a different magnitude so its tough to judge from that and most physicians who graduated >10 years ago aren't facing what we're looking at now (>200k, inability to defer during residency (becoming 400-500k post-residency/fellowship), 6.8% interest, declining pay/reimbursement).

Awww, thank you so much!! Best wishes to you too!

And that's definitely true. I've shadowed a few younger physicians and talked with them about their thoughts and experiences regarding debt burden. While it's a small sample size (n=3) and all of them had at least >$150k in debt starting residency, they said that in the end, they felt that while it didn't make it *great* to have >$200k in debt starting residency, it hadn't been prohibitive for them to buy a house, start a family, etc. So that was mildly comforting, lol

 

[migvsu]

Congratulations on your choices. I will likely be attending Wayne but wouldn't hesitate to attend UCSD if I had the chance. I'm sure you'll do great!

 

[shine with me]

Congratulations on your choices. I will likely be attending Wayne but wouldn't hesitate to attend UCSD if I had the chance. I'm sure you'll do great!

Thank you so much and congrats on Wayne! It's a very good school and ditto: I'm sure you'll crush it as well