UC Davis midlevels over students?

[physiciansforpatients]

We have gotten a couple of rumors this way that medical students at UC Davis are being sent to rotations an hour away (no housing etc so they have to drive) because NP and PA students are getting priority at the local hospital. Anyone else hear this? If so, feel free to PM, or comment here.

(This account is an individual physician representing a group of physicians who advocate for medical students and the physicians).

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[physiciansforpatients]

Here are screen shots of the report and the actions we are taking thus far with UC Davis.

 

[Indebt4Life]

This isn't a rumor. UC Davis has created a dual NP/PA program that can be completed in 27 months. They need clinical preceptor spots for those midlevels. Almost half of the medical students are getting shafted and are going to be sent to less desirable preceptor spots with long commutes in order to give those preceptor positions to the midlevel students. Basically the medstudents are funding the education for the midlevels. Everyone should be outraged.

 

[Avada Cadaver]

This isn't a rumor. UC Davis has created a dual NP/PA program that can be completed in 27 months. They need clinical preceptor spots for those midlevels. Almost half of the medical students are getting shafted and are going to be sent to less desirable preceptor spots with long commutes in order to give those preceptor positions to the midlevel students. Basically the medstudents are funding the education for the midlevels. Everyone should be outraged.

Applicants who are interviewing should bring this up at their interview. I wonder what kind of response they'd receive.

 

[Mr.S]

basically every single person reading this should raise a big stink about this so this never happens again... otherwise it will keep happening.

How do you think mid levels got to where they are? hint: not by being passive!1

 

[NicMouse64]

It's not just at UC-Davis. At my medical school our PA students get priority on the hospital linked rotations. Medical students sometimes have to commute 30 minutes for family medicine and internal medicine clerkships. Everyone seems ok with it, probably because they don't realize what's happening.

 

[Avada Cadaver]

During my Peds rotation, which was already 90 minutes from home campus, the neonatal NP student got preference for post-birth resuscitations. I didn’t get a single one to participate in. My attending was a nice guy and the NP preceptor was a militant bitch. Guess who won? We can’t be “the nice guys” and expect to get our way

Here are screen shots of the report and the actions we are taking thus far with UC Davis.

Do y'all go to med schools at public institutions? Not sure if it's a public vs private thing but we have a PA program here but they definitely do not get preferential treatment in the wards.

 

[NicMouse64]

Do y'all go to med schools at public institutions? Not sure if it's a public vs private thing but we have a PA program here but they definitely do not get preferential treatment in the wards.

public. They are also expanding the PA class. It's all about $$$.

We also get those fun interprofessionalism classes where we get to have PAs lecture a bunch of medical students on how to best treat our patients and how PAs are equivalent providers.

The worst part is that most of my peers eat it up and talk about how they wish they had gone to PA school.

 

[evilbooyaa]

It's not just at UC-Davis. At my medical school our PA students get priority on the hospital linked rotations. Medical students sometimes have to commute 30 minutes for family medicine and internal medicine clerkships. Everyone seems ok with it, probably because they don't realize what's happening.

I would name the school if I were you.

This practice is entirely unfathomable and makes UC Davis SOM look like a complete POS. I support whatever steps are taken to reverse this as public pressure on administration is likely the only thing to reverse this.

This isn't a rumor. UC Davis has created a dual NP/PA program that can be completed in 27 months. They need clinical preceptor spots for those midlevels. Almost half of the medical students are getting shafted and are going to be sent to less desirable preceptor spots with long commutes in order to give those preceptor positions to the midlevel students. Basically the medstudents are funding the education for the midlevels. Everyone should be outraged.

WTF, why is there a dual NP/PA program? What's the benefit of having BOTH those titles?

 

[NicMouse64]

I would name the school if I were you.

This practice is entirely unfathomable and makes UC Davis SOM look like a complete POS. I support whatever steps are taken to reverse this as public pressure on administration is likely the only thing to reverse this.



WTF, why is there a dual NP/PA program? What's the benefit of having BOTH those titles?

Not trying to start a flame war with my medical school administration. One could easily identify who i am based on my posts if they wanted to. Also I don't think a lot of people realize it's happening at their schools. When PAs are being taught by MDs at the attached teaching hospital, it is taking rotation sites from the MD students. This wouldn't be an issue if everyone had a spot at the teaching hospital, but alas, this is not the case.

 

[DO2015CA]

I still doubt this affects the competitiveness of their admissions.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

First they came for the rotation spots.....

 

[Avada Cadaver]

I still doubt this affects the competitiveness of their admissions.

Maybe for individuals who want to stay in Ca at all costs and those only holding an acceptance to UCD. But it would certainly matter for students with choices, in the same way that mandatory lectures are dealbreakers for some applicants. It should give pause to potential students; you're essentially being told upfront despite all that you pay, you are not their priority.

 

[Lawpy]

This is a complete disaster and UC Davis should be slammed.

 

[Indebt4Life]

All medical schools that do this should be outed. As medical students you are literally paying top dollar for your education

 

[NicMouse64]

All medical schools that do this should be outed. As medical students you are literally paying top dollar for your education

Let's see how useful the LCME actually is. If they were worth their weight they would punish schools that do things like this. I can assure you that UC-Davis is not the only one, but rather the only one where the evidence has a clear paper trail.

 

[Indebt4Life]

NicMouse I sent you a message.

 

[Mr.S]

Not trying to start a flame war with my medical school administration. One could easily identify who i am based on my posts if they wanted to. Also I don't think a lot of people realize it's happening at their schools. When PAs are being taught by MDs at the attached teaching hospital, it is taking rotation sites from the MD students. This wouldn't be an issue if everyone had a spot at the teaching hospital, but alas, this is not the case.

send me a pm with the information. I will out them and call the newspaper.. wont be you

 

[cubswin]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of PAs is for good Doctors to do nothing." --Bdmund Eurke, MD

 

[NicMouse64]

Wow. Check out physiciansforpatientprotection.com
Seems like they’re addressing some of this.

While I agree with what you guys are doing and like that people are taking concrete steps to address the issues, it seems that this organization is new, and you are using this circumstance to boost publicity. All of this is good---but it also seems a bit opportunistic.

On that note, while I agree with what you guys are doing and the methods, could you give a quick summary of your organization: how many people are currently active/members, how many physicians are involved, and how do you plan on achieving funding for you organization? I've been saying for some time physicians need a lobbying group that looks out for the interests of physicians exclusively---but don't want to put my support behind one that could ruin/tarnish that goal in the future.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

All of this is good---but it also seems a bit opportunistic.

There are well known physicians on this site that are members and have discussed it before, it's been around longer than you think. You should reach out to them and ask your questions.

 

[NicMouse64]

There are well known physicians on this site that are members and have discussed it before, it's been around longer than you think. You should reach out to them and ask your questions.

Didn't know that, just checked out the site and saw only one blog post and saw that it was from 3 days ago. Didn't do a ton of searching though.

 

[Indebt4Life]

NicMouse. This is a new organization and it is made up of people who really truly care about the future of medicine. I don't think PPP is using this as a publicity stunt. This "circumstance" as you call it ...is one of many that has surfaced and everyday it keeps getting worse and worse in all aspects. They hear stories about patient's being harmed because the person they trusted to provide them care has serious knowledge gaps (example nurse giving the wrong drug because it starts with the same first letters...)...These types of stories are happening every single day. They hear about physicians losing their job to someone straight out of training because corporate medicine wants to save a buck. Physicians and scientist are bullied when they publish literature about how midlevels are actually costing more money in the long run or provide a lot of unnecessary care (more of everything). If you can think of another organization that does more for physicians please let me know. And please don't say the AMA. They sold out a long time ago.

 

[puahate]

Scary times out here

 

[libertyyne]

Can someone send this info to their Alums and donors. UC DAVIS should be ashamed.

 

[bonemann]

wow thats trash
UCDSOM shame on you

 

[WindChaser]

Hello,

Current MS2 at UCDSOM and was present during the orientation when they presented this information. So I wanted to say that most of this information is not exactly set in stone.

A couple of us talked with one of the Deans in the School of Medicine about our concerns regarding this after the orientation and he said that housing would be provided for us IF the drive was an hour away (not counting traffic) and that medical students would get priority over NP/PA students. How true this is has yet to be seen, but we are trying to pressure administration to give us clear answers and understand how frustrating this is from our own perspective.

There are also a lot of people in the School of Medicine who are trying their best to make sure medical students get these spots, but the School of Nursing (the school where the NPs and PAs are trained) have their own separate administrative entity. We are also competing with the increasing size of Cal North State and Touro and Drexel (weird right?) for rotation spots too. However, this definitely doesn't excuse any reason to not prioritize medical students for these clinical rotation spots.

 

[WindChaser]

WTF, why is there a dual NP/PA program? What's the benefit of having BOTH those titles?

It's not a dual program. NP students and PA students are just taking the same basic science classes together in the School of Nursing, but they are separate programs with separate requirements to get in.

 

[Gorne]

Hello,

Current MS2 at UCDSOM and was present during the orientation when they presented this information. So I wanted to say that most of this information is not exactly set in stone.

A couple of us talked with one of the Deans in the School of Medicine about our concerns regarding this after the orientation and he said that housing would be provided for us IF the drive was an hour away (not counting traffic) and that medical students would get priority over NP/PA students. How true this is has yet to be seen, but we are trying to pressure administration to give us clear answers and understand how frustrating this is from our own perspective.

There are also a lot of people in the School of Medicine who are trying their best to make sure medical students get these spots, but the School of Nursing (the school where the NPs and PAs are trained) have their own separate administrative entity. We are also competing with the increasing size of Cal North State and Touro and Drexel (weird right?) for rotation spots too. However, this definitely doesn't excuse any reason to not prioritize medical students for these clinical rotation spots.

Drexel has a Sacremento campus and they are in the process of doing away with it entirely, they already send a miniscule amount of students over there anyway. In my class, I know of two. Sounds like the administration is reaching for excuses.

 

[Goro]

Can someone send this info to their Alums and donors. UC DAVIS should be ashamed.

In addition, state assembly and senators. This is a public school, after all.

Don't get mad, get even.

Someone told me that CNU stole some sites from UCD as well (this is common among med schools)

 

[NicMouse64]

NicMouse. This is a new organization and it is made up of people who really truly care about the future of medicine. I don't think PPP is using this as a publicity stunt. This "circumstance" as you call it ...is one of many that has surfaced and everyday it keeps getting worse and worse in all aspects. They hear stories about patient's being harmed because the person they trusted to provide them care has serious knowledge gaps (example nurse giving the wrong drug because it starts with the same first letters...)...These types of stories are happening every single day. They hear about physicians losing their job to someone straight out of training because corporate medicine wants to save a buck. Physicians and scientist are bullied when they publish literature about how midlevels are actually costing more money in the long run or provide a lot of unnecessary care (more of everything). If you can think of another organization that does more for physicians please let me know. And please don't say the AMA. They sold out a long time ago.

Oh I am very against the AMA, they are sellouts. Like I said, I like the idea and will probably join.

 

[physiciansforpatients]

While I agree with what you guys are doing and like that people are taking concrete steps to address the issues, it seems that this organization is new, and you are using this circumstance to boost publicity. All of this is good---but it also seems a bit opportunistic.

On that note, while I agree with what you guys are doing and the methods, could you give a quick summary of your organization: how many people are currently active/members, how many physicians are involved, and how do you plan on achieving funding for you organization? I've been saying for some time physicians need a lobbying group that looks out for the interests of physicians exclusively---but don't want to put my support behind one that could ruin/tarnish that goal in the future.

There are well known physicians on this site that are members and have discussed it before, it's been around longer than you think. You should reach out to them and ask your questions.

Didn't know that, just checked out the site and saw only one blog post and saw that it was from 3 days ago. Didn't do a ton of searching though.

Can someone send this info to their Alums and donors. UC DAVIS should be ashamed.

Hey guys, so PPP (physicians for patient protection) has been around for a couple of years now. This is NOT a publicity stunt. The people who are running this organization do this with the very little free time we have to do this for free. We were partially responsible for combating the expanded scope of practice laws in a few states. The AMA isn’t doing anything, so we figured we would.

We currently have a network of about 10,000 physicians on one platform of social media and just began generating revenue. That network is free to join.

We launched a website recently to generate funds and spread our message. The funds generated will solely be used for lobbying and marketing strategies. No one gets paid. The funds are collected from membership dues. It is free to join as a student and we encourage all to get involved. Residents pay a very minimal fee and attending a bear the brunt.

However, as noted awareness is important, if you don’t want to shell out money, or join via the website, please PM me and I will invite you to our private social media group where you can at least see our discussions and participate there. Though I will warn you, some of it is difficult to see. At least once a day I facepalm, or become upset. At least it’s a charge to fight back.

 

[Oh_Gee]

I would name the school if I were you.

This practice is entirely unfathomable and makes UC Davis SOM look like a complete POS. I support whatever steps are taken to reverse this as public pressure on administration is likely the only thing to reverse this.



WTF, why is there a dual NP/PA program? What's the benefit of having BOTH those titles?

2x better than someone with a MD or DO, obvs

 

[operaman]

I’m always a bit skeptical of things like this simply because there are usually more things going on behind the scenes than it appears. My suspicion is that the NP/PA slots are simply one part of a larger complex issue for that institution. There are already students commuting according to posts in this thread, so rotation slots are already limited.

That said, making this public is absolutely the right thing to do. It should get a sticky in some pre med forums and every applicant should weigh this heavily when deciding on where to go. Sure, they will fill their class, but if enough top students decline offers it will hurt their stats and ultimately ding their rankings.

I think the idea that the NP/PA students are the reason for this issue will make it more inflammatory, but apparently they were short rotation spots long before this point.

It’s hard to articulate to applicants why remote sites are bad aside from the commute. In a nutshell, you’re putting students into places that don’t typically have students and are usually not prepared to absorb them into their workflow. It’s hard enough incorporating students into rotations when at the big mothership hospital! I can’t imagine trying to do that in the community.

For example: We get a lot of 4th year students in our program but rarely get people during their early clerkship year unless they elect to do a couple weeks with us. As a result, the subI kids get a great experience because we know what to do with them but we struggle to create a meaningful experience for the clerkship level folks. If we had them all the time it would be easier to design that workflow. I think remote sites would have similar struggles and students would end up doing a lot of shadowing.

 

[Gorne]

I resonate with this deeply. I have been witness to myself and classmates being thrust into sites at community clinics / hospitals with either no capacity or desire to participate in the medical education process.

I did pediatrics at a community hospital unwelcoming to students. Shadowed for 4 weeks. Had to do a physical exam on a child on my more rigorous family med rotation, had never auscultated a pediatric chest before and asked if I had done so on pediatrics, no I hadn't. The PA student's all had though..

 

[Psai]

Every year things get worse. It's our own people doing it to us. It's unacceptable behavior and I'm glad you named and shamed the school. Pathetic.

 

[physiciansforpatients]

Anyone who this resonates with.

 

[physiciansforpatients]

For the record Lou is medical admin/midlevels, doctors are the narrator in this scene.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Every year things get worse. It's our own people doing it to us. It's unacceptable behavior and I'm glad you named and shamed the school. Pathetic.

Anesthesiologists have been training crna's for decades. When my son was on anesthesia as a 3rd yr student, the hospital had a crna program, he never got to intubate. Only let the srna's do it. Anesthesia, and DRs in general are doing it to themselves. PAs and NPs will soon join the powerful CRNA lobby and be working against us.

 

[y123]

Why would they prioritize NP and PA students over med students?
NP and PA students do not really care where they train as much as medical students do. They just need to graduate and get a job. Doing clerkships at an academic center that centers on teaching is much more important for med students.

 

[Lawpy]

Every year things get worse. It's our own people doing it to us. It's unacceptable behavior and I'm glad you named and shamed the school. Pathetic.

Anesthesiologists have been training crna's for decades. When my son was on anesthesia as a 3rd yr student, the hospital had a crna program, he never got to intubate. Only let the srna's do it. Anesthesia, and DRs in general are doing it to themselves. PAs and NPs will soon join the powerful CRNA lobby and be working against us.

The major reason why midlevel encroachment happens is because physicians are willing to throw their colleagues and trainees under the bus by freely training and educating midlevels, who are only serving as cheap future replacements. Until physicians stop with this absurd behavior, the problem will only worsen.

 

[puahate]

public. They are also expanding the PA class. It's all about $$$.

We also get those fun interprofessionalism classes where we get to have PAs lecture a bunch of medical students on how to best treat our patients and how PAs are equivalent providers.

The worst part is that most of my peers eat it up and talk about how they wish they had gone to PA school.

wow. This is really it. THis is end

 

[curbsideconsult]

I love all the PAs and NPs I've worked with so far (though, as a patient, I haven't had as much good fortune with being treated by them). I've learned a lot from them and they've generally been very deferential to my preceptors and even to me. With that said...

Maybe the NPs/PAs/CRNAs who are so adamant about being on the same level as doctors should be allowed to run their own small hospital with outpatient clinics where they can't cherry-pick their patients and they have to take anyone who comes through their doors. They should take on ALL of the responsibility and the liability that comes with it. Students rotating through should only be trained by licensed NPs/PAs/CRNAs. Independent number crunchers could determine if error/complication rates are on par with physicians like these midlevels argue they would be. If this little experiment were allowed to happen, then the debate would be more or less settled and we can move on to work on other issues.

 

[0ncogene]

Come on UC Davis SOM! Get your priorities straight and your act together!

 

[Med_WannaBee]

Hey guys, so PPP (physicians for patient protection) has been around for a couple of years now. This is NOT a publicity stunt. The people who are running this organization do this with the very little free time we have to do this for free. We were partially responsible for combating the expanded scope of practice laws in a few states. The AMA isn’t doing anything, so we figured we would.

We currently have a network of about 10,000 physicians on one platform of social media and just began generating revenue. That network is free to join.

We launched a website recently to generate funds and spread our message. The funds generated will solely be used for lobbying and marketing strategies. No one gets paid. The funds are collected from membership dues. It is free to join as a student and we encourage all to get involved. Residents pay a very minimal fee and attending a bear the brunt.

However, as noted awareness is important, if you don’t want to shell out money, or join via the website, please PM me and I will invite you to our private social media group where you can at least see our discussions and participate there. Though I will warn you, some of it is difficult to see. At least once a day I facepalm, or become upset. At least it’s a charge to fight back.

I'm not able to PM you for some reason, but I would very much like to join the social media group.

 

[AsianPersuasion]

****, at this rate I'm finna be an MD / DO / NP / PA and CRNA.

 

[Blunt Dissection]

Wow - highly disappointed at my alma mater for doing this. When Cal Northstate was trying to open its MD program, UCDSOM threw a huge stink and lobbied the state legislature for years to try and stop it. Now they're shafting their own med students? Whose great idea was this?

 

[DO2015CA]

Wow - highly disappointed at my alma mater for doing this. When Cal Northstate was trying to open its MD program, UCDSOM threw a huge stink and lobbied the state legislature for years to try and stop it. Now they're shafting their own med students? Whose great idea was this?

CNSU>UCD now??!?

 

[NicMouse64]

On my last rotation I got pulled aside on the first day by the head of the department to tell me that’s the np students will get first crack at seeing the better cases and any procedures that come our way.

Good times.

This is where we are at, folks.

How do we change this?

be more attractive than the NPs? seriously that's the only reason I could see this happening.

 

[NicMouse64]

Yes... this is all happening because men and women attendings want to look at eye candy nps

Is that seriously your thought regarding this?

It was sarcastic, because it's so absurd.