U of T recognized as challenging

[cutiepie83]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if U of T is recognized in the US for its challenging education? I graduated with a 3.02 and am applying to several schools in the US, and I would like to know if they do look at the school from which I graduated and assess my GPA relatively.

Thanks

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[leviathan]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if U of T is recognized in the US for its challenging education? I graduated with a 3.02 and am applying to several schools in the US, and I would like to know if they do look at the school from which I graduated and assess my GPA relatively.

Thanks

How do you figure U of T is "challenging"?

 

[cutiepie83]

This is all relative to schools in Canada. I'm not quite sure how the schools in US function, but relative to other schools in Canada, U of T is recognized for its challenging education. Getting an A in that school is almost an impossible task if you decide to retain your social life. Years of classes with 1200 students and impersonal courses where I never even met the TA who marked my papers really did take a toll on my GPA.

The thing with U of T is that it is very appealing to Canadians and international students all over the world, not only for its recognized reputation, but for its inexpensive tuition and for the inexpensive life in Toronto. Also, U of T is known to be the #1 research institution in Canada, making it much more attractive to International students. How do I know? well because I befriended many internationals who tell me that U of T is very well known in their country, particularly students from China. That being said, not only is it very appealing to attend, but also competitive to enter, and so they must pick amongst the best Canadian and international students.

Final analysis? Well in my first year biology, the class size was around 2000 students, and in my 2nd year biology the class size was..well lets just say U of T does a good job weeding out students.

Here is an exerpt from the program I took at U of T located in the FAQs page:

Question: If I take Human Biology, what are my chances of getting into medical school?
Answer: In one word, slim. A very small fraction of applicants make it.

Take my word, as a graduate from U of T, the school is very challenging

 

[cutiepie83]

Editted: doubled post.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if U of T is recognized in the US for its challenging education? I graduated with a 3.02 and am applying to several schools in the US, and I would like to know if they do look at the school from which I graduated and assess my GPA relatively.

Thanks

For graduate school (not sure which you're applying to as you didn't say), GPA and GRE are given pretty equal weight. I know a guy with a 2.5 GPA and an almost perfect score on the GRE who has now graduated with his Ph.D. from a top-20 U.S. school. I also know two international students who were mostly straight A students, but did poorly on the GRE due to the language issue. They also gained admission.

Medical schools will take into account the rigor of the undergraduate institution and the U of T is a prestigious school to gain a degree from. However, the reality of medical school admissions is that the raw numbers really matter more. Honestly. Some schools even use a computer program to filter out applicants based on numbers alone in the initial screen. For this reason, you'll often find people with excellent grades doing extremely well in the application process - even though they they studied at small, lesser-knows schools. Focus on doing well on the MCAT, and put your best foot forward.

When it's all done, there's more than one way to skin a cat: there are medical schools in Canada, the U.S., and overseas and there are D.O. schools. In the end, everyone studying at those places can do well and become a fine physician. It's just a matter of sacrifice and asking yourself how far you're prepared to go to realize your dream. Stick in and don't give up. Good luck!

 

[cheer_up]

I totally agree with Cutiepie83. I was also a U of T graduate. I majored in Human Biology and had taken loads of classes of more than 1000 people in size. U of T is indeed one of the best universities in the world both in terms of its research and programs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite ignorant about it. It is very difficult to do well at that University simply because there are so many students in each of the life science courses. So they have to weed people out. They do this by making the courses difficult. Although I have never regret attending there as I think it's great university, I think I would have got a much higher GPA and would have had a much higher chance of getting accepted into a dental school of my choice had I attended a smaller and less well known university. I really wish someone had told me that 10 years ago. I found that out the hard and expensive way . But I guess everything happens for a reason. Thus, I really respect the people who do well at U of T as it's quite difficult and extremely competitive. My advice is if you're not so booksmart, and are looking to get as high a GPA as possible, do not attend there.

 

[leviathan]

Final analysis? Well in my first year biology, the class size was around 2000 students, and in my 2nd year biology the class size was..well lets just say U of T does a good job weeding out students.

Here is an exerpt from the program I took at U of T located in the FAQs page:

Question: If I take Human Biology, what are my chances of getting into medical school?
Answer: In one word, slim. A very small fraction of applicants make it.

Take my word, as a graduate from U of T, the school is very challenging

On the average, it makes it harder for people to do well in large classes, but the people who make it to med school don't need someone to hold their hand and guide them through the course...university is not high school, and you're expected to be responsible and learn independently. I've had numerous courses with 2000+ students (eg. Organic Chemistry), and if I needed assistance from a TA or the prof, there are office hours every week, tutorials, discussion groups, etc. when I run into trouble that I can't deal with on my own. Quite frankly, I fail to see how UofT is a difficult school, and a school's reputation has no relation to the difficulty of undergraduate courses.

 

[yaowang]

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[cutiepie83]

On the average, it makes it harder for people to do well in large classes, but the people who make it to med school don't need someone to hold their hand and guide them through the course...university is not high school, and you're expected to be responsible and learn independently. I've had numerous courses with 2000+ students (eg. Organic Chemistry), and if I needed assistance from a TA or the prof, there are office hours every week, tutorials, discussion groups, etc. when I run into trouble that I can't deal with on my own. Quite frankly, I fail to see how UofT is a difficult school, and a school's reputation has no relation to the difficulty of undergraduate courses.

I guess you have to see it for yourself to understand. U of T admits the best scholars from around the world. The concepts taught in class are certainly not difficult to understand, however, their testing tactics are rather absurd and unfair. I had the same number of students in my second year organic chemistry. The first test averaged at around 40%. After that, the class number decreased dramatically. The final class average was 60%. What's actually funny is that 1/4 of the attendees were in fact retaking the course.
Chemistry was my specialty in highschool, however it was nearly impossible to do well in that class.

Also, the school retains a very competitive atmosphere. For example, I was attending in a group discussion that was meant to prepare us for an exam in statistics, there were 5 students who carried several exams from previous years. When we asked if we could take a look at them, they were repulsed by the idea. They refused to share the exam. And believe it or not, this was a common occurence.

If you are still not convinced, then you'll have to see it for yourself.

 

[avenirv]

traditionally, in the states McGill is counted as THE canadian ivy league. i said traditionally.
UoT is trying very hard and coming very fast to an american style of university.
i am glad that somebody clarified that "international students" when he said that means, mainly, china.
i do not know if UoT stands in the same rank as the 8 ivy leagues, stanford, MIT, cambridge, oxford, berkley, sorbona, heidelberg, berlin, moskow. i just said i do not know. would be nice.

 

[cutiepie83]

i am glad that somebody clarified that "international students" when he said that means, mainly, china.

I'm not sure if you're trying to patronize me, but this is what I said: "well because I befriended many internationals who tell me that U of T is very well known in their country, particularly students from China"

Maybe I did not clarify myself, but what I meant is that my information comes from international students from China. I cannot speak for other countries since I dont have the appropriate evidence to back me up.

P.S. I'm a female

 

[cheer_up]

"Also, the school retains a very competitive atmosphere. For example, I was attending in a group discussion that was meant to prepare us for an exam in statistics, there were 5 students who carried several exams from previous years. When we asked if we could take a look at them, they were repulsed by the idea. They refused to share the exam. And believe it or not, this was a common occurence".--Posted by Cutiepie83

Oh yeah, that is quite the norm at U of T (St. George campus). Students will not share their exams with strangers (their fellow class mates). This is one aspect I didn't like about U of T....its extreme nature of competitiveness. Everybody is trying to outdo each other academically.

 

[leviathan]

I guess you have to see it for yourself to understand. U of T admits the best scholars from around the world. The concepts taught in class are certainly not difficult to understand, however, their testing tactics are rather absurd and unfair. I had the same number of students in my second year organic chemistry. The first test averaged at around 40%. After that, the class number decreased dramatically. The final class average was 60%. What's actually funny is that 1/4 of the attendees were in fact retaking the course.
Chemistry was my specialty in highschool, however it was nearly impossible to do well in that class.

Also, the school retains a very competitive atmosphere. For example, I was attending in a group discussion that was meant to prepare us for an exam in statistics, there were 5 students who carried several exams from previous years. When we asked if we could take a look at them, they were repulsed by the idea. They refused to share the exam. And believe it or not, this was a common occurence.

If you are still not convinced, then you'll have to see it for yourself.

My organic chemistry class average was 52% (n=~2000). This whole "weeding out" concept is just a myth produced by people who can't accept that they can't handle school, in my opinion. School is hard, no doubt, but organic chemistry (and other similar courses) is a hard course with low class averages at every school regardless of its reputation. Unless of course, you can show me schools where the class average was not very low, then I'd find it hard to believe. No university has ever admitted to "weeding out" policies as far as I know.

 

[MedStar]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if U of T is recognized in the US for its challenging education? I graduated with a 3.02 and am applying to several schools in the US, and I would like to know if they do look at the school from which I graduated and assess my GPA relatively.

Thanks

Cutiepie,

No school will look at a student's GPA and muse over the difficulty of a particular institution's programs.

It is too time/labor intensive for them to do so.
Also, there is no objective assessment in 'looking at how difficult' a particular school's programs are.

In short the answer is no! Your GPA will be assessed for what it is, a number.

Your GPA will be compared as a number against all other students.
You have a chance to up your numbers by writing an MCAT of 30 or more, or doing an extra year, or a Master's, etc.

Good luck

 

[cutiepie83]

My organic chemistry class average was 52% (n=~2000). This whole "weeding out" concept is just a myth produced by people who can't accept that they can't handle school, in my opinion. School is hard, no doubt, but organic chemistry (and other similar courses) is a hard course with low class averages at every school regardless of its reputation. Unless of course, you can show me schools where the class average was not very low, then I'd find it hard to believe. No university has ever admitted to "weeding out" policies as far as I know.

You're not getting my point. Forget it.

By the way, I forgot to mention that I'm not applying for med school, I'm actually seeking to get my Master's degree in Public Health.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I had the same number of students in my second year organic chemistry. The first test averaged at around 40%.

Scores like this are very normal in British universities......

 

[leviathan]

You're not getting my point. Forget it.

By the way, I forgot to mention that I'm not applying for med school, I'm actually seeking to get my Master's degree in Public Health.

No, I think I understand you quite perfectly.

Your argument is that the schools need to weed people out (for some inexplicable reason), that the class sizes are all large (which I've raised valid points against), and the new idea that students are competitive and ruthless. My organic chem midterm had a class average of 40% too...it's the same no matter where you go. So unless you are saying this was not your argument, please clarify yourself, or forever hold your peace.

 

[cutiepie83]

No, I think I understand you quite perfectly.

Your argument is that the schools need to weed people out (for some inexplicable reason), that the class sizes are all large (which I've raised valid points against), and the new idea that students are competitive and ruthless. My organic chem midterm had a class average of 40% too...it's the same no matter where you go. So unless you are saying this was not your argument, please clarify yourself, or forever hold your peace.

No you did not. Let me explain. You picked out all the points that validate your argument and ignored the ones that did not. This is what I call selective understanding.

What I also said, in case you decided to ignore facts I mentioned that were just as important as the ones you pointed out, is that U of T is much different from other schools for reasons that make it much more attractive to internationals and consequently making it competitive for entrance.

Initially, U of T has a high international profile. It is undoubtably an internationally reputable school from which an earned degree is treated as equally as a degree earned from the US. Also, it is located in one of the most multicultural cities in the world, proving that many internationals do find Toronto an attractive city.

Secondly, unlike the schools in the US, tuition at U of T is much more economical and so is the life in Toronto.

Thirdly, unlike McGill, Toronto is located in an English speaking province, and is more attractive to those who hope to work in English speaking countries, perhaps making it more appealing than McGill University.

By no means am I trying to prove that U of T is the best school, because believe me, it is NOT. However I am saying that it captivates international students for all the reasons I mentioned above. Dont forget, University of Toronto is Canada's largest university. What does this prove? Well it proves that U of T does in fact have to pick and choose their students from a large pool of applicants. And even when it does, the limited class sizes in subsequent years will not allow for all first year students to attend, hence the 'weeding out' process must take place. If you were part of the admission committee, what kind of students would you select? If you can logically answer that question, you should understand my point "quite perfectly".

 

[leviathan]

No you did not. Let me explain. You picked out all the points that validate your argument and ignored the ones that did not. This is what I call selective understanding.

What I also said, in case you decided to ignore facts I mentioned that were just as important as the ones you pointed out, is that U of T is much different from other schools for reasons that make it much more attractive to internationals and consequently making it competitive for entrance.

Initially, U of T has a high international profile. It is undoubtably an internationally reputable school from which an earned degree is treated as equally as a degree earned from the US. Also, it is located in one of the most multicultural cities in the world, proving that many internationals do find Toronto an attractive city.

Secondly, unlike the schools in the US, tuition at U of T is much more economical and so is the life in Toronto.

Thirdly, unlike McGill, Toronto is located in an English speaking province, and is more attractive to those who hope to work in English speaking countries, perhaps making it more appealing than McGill University.

By no means am I trying to prove that U of T is the best school, because believe me, it is NOT. However I am saying that it captivates international students for all the reasons I mentioned above. Dont forget, University of Toronto is Canada's largest university. What does this prove? Well it proves that U of T does in fact have to pick and choose their students from a large pool of applicants. And even when it does, the limited class sizes in subsequent years will not allow for all first year students to attend, hence the 'weeding out' process must take place. If you were part of the admission committee, what kind of students would you select? If you can logically answer that question, you should understand my point "quite perfectly".

Obviously you are missing MY point. All major universities "weed out" for their upper year courses. All major university organic chem classes have averages barely hovering over 50%. All universities have other courses that have poor averages as well. UofT is not alone in this process, it is accompanied by every other major institution, so I don't see how you think UofT should be recognized as a "difficult" school any more than other schools. If you want to go that route, then you would have to say the same about every major Canadian university (UBC, Queens, UofA, York, McGill, etc), and every major US university, and that would be impossible to objectively do. Most departments can accommodate for most of the students wanting to major in that field, so I also fail to see the whole weeding process anyhow.

 

[richmond_repn]

My organic chemistry class average was 52% (n=~2000). This whole "weeding out" concept is just a myth produced by people who can't accept that they can't handle school, in my opinion. School is hard, no doubt, but organic chemistry (and other similar courses) is a hard course with low class averages at every school regardless of its reputation. Unless of course, you can show me schools where the class average was not very low, then I'd find it hard to believe. No university has ever admitted to "weeding out" policies as far as I know.

Dude I go to UBC and I can name you ten schools where Organic Chemistry course has a high average.....UNBC, Douglas, College of New Caledonia, Kwantlen, Capilano.......okay thats only 5 but I have friends that did their first 2 years there and lets just say they all got very high marks in that class as did almost everyone else in that class. Its not that the material is different its that the TESTS ARE MUCH EASIER

 

[cheech10]

traditionally, in the states McGill is counted as THE canadian ivy league. i said traditionally.

Yup, until the 1990's, McGill was tops in Canada in terms of international reputation. Then the QC gov't cut back funding, and UofT increased funding, and stole most of the big name researchers from McGill. Things are much different now, with UofT well ahead in medical research and reputation.

 

[cutiepie83]

Once again, I am NOT ONLY blaming the marks for its difficulty because as you said, it does not make it different from any other schools. I'm blaming its international recognition and the 'advantages' of going to U of T versus other schools which makes the desire for students to attend U of T and the application pool much larger. I was one of those students.

Again, the concepts taught in class are NOT different, they're very much the same if not more in depth. But as cheech mentioned, the TESTS are certainly different, they are very, VERY, tricky.

 

[knitwitty]

Guys, this is the most HILARIOUS, pointless thread I've read in quite some time. But I'll add to this nonsense anyway. What follows is a re-creation of the above 20 or so posts, in the format of "A Part of Our Heritage" commercials. Or something.

(Advance apologies for b!tchiness to come).

Episode #1. U of T prof and U of Somewhere else prof having a chat.

UTProf: I just gave my class a midterm. Brutal! The average was only 25.1%!
USProf: Really? My class average was 99.3%. I wonder why they're so different?
UTProf: Well, at my school, we admit lots of students we actually don't want. Our job, as professors, is to fail out 75% of our students in second year. That's the only way we can get huge amounts of money from first year tuition (the highest $ in Ontario, maybe even in Canada!), and drive class sizes down to gain points on the Maclean's rankings for "class size in 3rd and 4th year".
USProf: Yeah, that makes sense. I guess I intentionally make my tests super easy because I feel badly for my students. After all, they go to a sub-par university. I have to boost their egos somehow.

Epidsode #2. Two adcom members in a U.S. university debate who they will admit.

Adcom1: Well, what do you think of applicant A?
Adcom2: Oh dear, his GPA is 1.2. Rejection letter.
Adcom1: Hm. Let's admit applicant B instead. He has a 4.0 from Queen's.
Adcom2: Wait a minute! Applicant A went to U of T! You do realize that they have a large international pool of applicants and their tests are trickier than tests at other Canadian universities?
Adcom1: You forgot to mention that when students at U of T get their hands on old exam papers, they don't share with their classmates. That means that only HALF of U of T students are cheaters!
Adcom2: Point well made. A 4.0 from a non-U of T Canadian university means absolutely nothing. In fact, in my opinion, it is only worth a U of T GPA of 0.00000032.

***************

FYI I don't hate U of T. U of T is an AWESOME school .

This thread is stupid! Everyone shake hands and make up
Now can we please get on with our lives???

 

[leviathan]

I'm usually a stubborn and argumentative person, but I'm always the first to admit when I am wrong. I never considered the points given for weeding out, but IF they are true, then I could see UofT being a harder school than say, Community College of The Middle of Nowhere. HOWEVER, my point still stands that UofT is one of hundreds of schools where the conditions you mentioned are present for the process of weeding out to occur, therefore the only way you can avoid this is going to a small and non-competitive school. In the hypothetical situation where student A attends UofT and student B attends University of Nowhere Special (UNS) and an ADCOM has to pick one of the two, then yes I'm sure they would take into consideration that UofT is more difficult and reject the UNS student. However, if you were trying to compare UT to any other major Canadian university (eg. an applicant from UofT and one from McGill or UBC), then I don't see how it is harder in any measurable way. I've seen practice tests from friends of mine at UT for organic, and they were only equally as difficult as my exams, and easier in some parts.

 

[knitwitty]

Sorry guys, my previous post came off a little meaner than I intended.

Or maybe by apologizing in advance I'm just living up to my non-confrontational personality

 

[Wertt]

I graduated from UofT. The most telling evidence of UofT's difficulty is that (at least in the faculty of Arts and Science), there is a policy that first and second year courses must have averages of C+ . If any course has an average higher than a C+, the prof must write a letter to the Deans Office documenting and explaining the reason for the higher average. It has been known that some profs have belled marks down rather than write this letter, though this never happened to me in any class. I know this from my undergraduate research advisor who had to write one such letter.
I would be interested to hear if this is a policy instituted at other schools in Canada (particularly McGill or UBC).
In contrast, I am currently taking a prerequisite Chemistry course at the University of Minnesota in the US. Here, our prof has told us that he will only bell UP, if the average for the course is too low, but that he will never bell DOWN and has no concern about high averages, and that he hopes we all do very well in the class. A much kinder policy, but unheard of in a first year UofT chemistry course.

 

[tussy]

I read this thread and laughed. Everyone thinks "their" university is harder and therefore "their" mediocre marks should be counted for more. U of T is no different than any other major university in Canada. When i was in my first year of university (more than 10 years ago now, not U of T) my first year biology course had 600 people in it. The first day the professor asked "how many of you want to go to medical school or dental school" At least half the class raised their hand. He then said "statistically 10 of you will get in". He then said "look to your right, look to your left, only 1 of you will remain here at the end of the year". He was right - there were only about 200 people in the class at the end of the year. Of those, about 40% failed the course (many had dropped out because their midterm marks were so low they had no chance of passing). As for his med school prediction: he was right. About 10 of us in the science department ended up in med/dental school. Those 10 were also the ones that got an A in those into courses. Smart/motivated people will work hard and rise to the top no matter what situation they are put in. If you can only get a C in a intro chem/bio course then you will not be able to get into medical school no matter where you go.

I have sat on admissions committees for residency training. There is no discussion as to what school people went to as an excuse for marks. Medicine requires you to be an independent learner and achieve no matter what circumstance. Don't use things like university, class size, or other excuses for poor performance. You're not in high school any more. Take some responsibility for oneself and stop making excuses.

 

[cutiepie83]

LOL @ knitwitty, that was truly an enjoyable little excerpt . I particularly enjoyed this part:

UTProf: Well, at my school, we admit lots of students we actually don't want. Our job, as professors, is to fail out 75% of our students in second year. That's the only way we can get huge amounts of money from first year tuition (the highest $ in Ontario, maybe even in Canada!), and drive class sizes down to gain points on the Maclean's rankings for "class size in 3rd and 4th year".

Thats it, right there, thats exactly it!

Wertt, we actually had that happen in several of my first year classes. and when we brought it up to the faculty this is what we get from them "the marks are up and we can do nothing about it" BULL$@&#!

And finally, leviathan, given that we are both extremely stubborn individuals, we need to agree to disagree before this thread gets ugly. We obviously come from different schools and being that I havent experienced another university and clearly you havent experienced U of T, our opinions are a little biased. To get to the bottom of this, we need people who have been to U of T and another school to give us their honest opinion. Otherwise, we should just forget about this and call it a night.

 

[leviathan]

And finally, leviathan, given that we are both extremely stubborn individuals, we need to agree to disagree before this thread gets ugly.

Yes I AM very stubborn. I don't think it would get ugly though..we could always just settle things in a nice, clean, fight to the death.

 

[leviathan]

And finally, leviathan, given that we are both extremely stubborn individuals, we need to agree to disagree before this thread gets ugly.

Yes I AM very stubborn. I don't think it would get ugly though..we could always just settle things in a nice, clean, fight to the death.

 

[Meat Cookie]

Too funny. For the UofT people, NO nobody cares how difficult it is to get high marks at your school. You wanted the 'prestige' of going to a well-known university and you got it. They will take your transcripts at face value.

Episode #1. U of T prof and U of Somewhere else prof having a chat.

UTProf: I just gave my class a midterm. Brutal! The average was only 25.1%!
USProf: Really? My class average was 99.3%. I wonder why they're so different?
UTProf: Well, at my school, we admit lots of students we actually don't want. Our job, as professors, is to fail out 75% of our students in second year. That's the only way we can get huge amounts of money from first year tuition (the highest $ in Ontario, maybe even in Canada!), and drive class sizes down to gain points on the Maclean's rankings for "class size in 3rd and 4th year".
USProf: Yeah, that makes sense. I guess I intentionally make my tests super easy because I feel badly for my students. After all, they go to a sub-par university. I have to boost their egos somehow.

Epidsode #2. Two adcom members in a U.S. university debate who they will admit.

Adcom1: Well, what do you think of applicant A?
Adcom2: Oh dear, his GPA is 1.2. Rejection letter.
Adcom1: Hm. Let's admit applicant B instead. He has a 4.0 from Queen's.
Adcom2: Wait a minute! Applicant A went to U of T! You do realize that they have a large international pool of applicants and their tests are trickier than tests at other Canadian universities?
Adcom1: You forgot to mention that when students at U of T get their hands on old exam papers, they don't share with their classmates. That means that only HALF of U of T students are cheaters!
Adcom2: Point well made. A 4.0 from a non-U of T Canadian university means absolutely nothing. In fact, in my opinion, it is only worth a U of T GPA of 0.00000032.

***************

FYI I don't hate U of T. U of T is an AWESOME school .

This thread is stupid! Everyone shake hands and make up
Now can we please get on with our lives???

 

[cutiepie83]

Yes I AM very stubborn. I don't think it would get ugly though..we could always just settle things in a nice, clean, fight to the death.

BRING IT, name me the time and place

Haha i'm just kidding, well I admit that I too am a very stubborn person. All I wanted from this post was a YES or NO. Look what you made it become leviathan, its all your fault

Meat Cookie: you're right and I learned that the hard way and I guess I still had hope... oh well, I had to pay the price somehow

 

[brightblueeyes]

I totally agree with Cutiepie83. I was also a U of T graduate. I majored in Human Biology and had taken loads of classes of more than 1000 people in size. U of T is indeed one of the best universities in the world both in terms of its research and programs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite ignorant about it. It is very difficult to do well at that University simply because there are so many students in each of the life science courses. So they have to weed people out. They do this by making the courses difficult. ...Thus, I really respect the people who do well at U of T as it's quite difficult and extremely competitive. My advice is if you're not so booksmart, and are looking to get as high a GPA as possible, do not attend there.

Well I know a bit about UofT too. The difference is that I'm familiar with several other universities both within Canada and elsewhere.

I don't deny that UofT is well funded and is great for research and I don't deny that some of its students are gifted. But that doesn't translate to high academic standards for all courses, students or TAs. Four of the most incompetent TAs I've ever come across were UofT TAs. I took an Immunology course as an elective and one of the few good things about the course was a course assignment with several slightly challenging questions. As it turned out, all the questions that were even remotely interesting were too difficult for our TA and weren't marked. And the questions that were left were so ridiculously easy that I suspect everyone in the class answered them correctly. And the only way our illustrious TA could find fault with students' answers was by whether or not we had summed up our solutions with concluding statements and underlined our answers. The only thing more stomach-churning than how he sucked up to our professor was how he tried to suck up to several of us students. Weird.

Unless things have changed, I think some programs at UofT really are unusually difficult. But I'm thinking of programs like Engineering Science, joint Math Physics and perhaps Asian Studies (I think their Asian language courses are tougher than at other Canadian universities). Their Bio Science courses, on the other hand, really didn't seem that tough, especially not when compared with some European universities.

I think UofT has a problem, too, with students limiting themselves to courses in which they feel they're likely to get high marks. I've known a few very intelligent UofT med students. But I've also met some that seemed dumb as a post. And they seemed especially proud of having avoided any undergrad courses that might have been "risky"...i.e. required a bit of insight, mathematical skill, high writing standards or learning a new language...i.e. one they weren't already fluent in.

UofT Bio Science courses tended to be somewhat predictable in that if you studied hard you could get high marks on exams. They weren't the big deal some of you are making them out to be.

 

[leviathan]

Well I know a bit about UofT too. The difference is that I'm familiar with several other universities both within Canada and elsewhere.

I don't deny that UofT is well funded and is great for research and I don't deny that some of its students are gifted. But that doesn't translate to high academic standards for all courses, students or TAs. Four of the most incompetent TAs I've ever come across were UofT TAs. I took an Immunology course as an elective and one of the few good things about the course was a course assignment with several slightly challenging questions. As it turned out, all the questions that were even remotely interesting were too difficult for our TA and weren't marked. And the questions that were left were so ridiculously easy that I suspect everyone in the class answered them correctly. And the only way our illustrious TA could find fault with students' answers was by whether or not we had summed up our solutions with concluding statements and underlined our answers. The only thing more stomach-churning than how he sucked up to our professor was how he tried to suck up to several of us students. Weird.

Unless things have changed, I think some programs at UofT really are unusually difficult. But I'm thinking of programs like Engineering Science, joint Math Physics and perhaps Asian Studies (I think their Asian language courses are tougher than at other Canadian universities). Their Bio Science courses, on the other hand, really didn't seem that tough, especially not when compared with some European universities.

I think UofT has a problem, too, with students limiting themselves to courses in which they feel they're likely to get high marks. I've known a few very intelligent UofT med students. But I've also met some that seemed dumb as a post. And they seemed especially proud of having avoided any undergrad courses that might have been "risky"...i.e. required a bit of insight, mathematical skill, high writing standards or learning a new language...i.e. one they weren't already fluent in.

UofT Bio Science courses tended to be somewhat predictable in that if you studied hard you could get high marks on exams. They weren't the big deal some of you are making them out to be.

Leviathan - 1, Cutiepie83 - 0.

 

[Paws]

I am in the states and I would say that UofT is regarded as the ivy league of Canada. McGill too, but I had thought that UT was "better?" whatever that means. I think it is like comparing Princeton and Yale, they're similar but who is "better?" And yes I do think schools compare the gpa's for the different schools. Most places will know that a 3.0 from University of Chicago will be a more solid 3.0 than one from Willamette Junior College. Ok, I made up the last one but you know what I mean.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I am in the states and I would say that UofT is regarded as the ivy league of Canada. McGill too, but I had thought that UT was "better?" whatever that means. I think it is like comparing Princeton and Yale, they're similar but who is "better?" And yes I do think schools compare the gpa's for the different schools. Most places will know that a 3.0 from University of Chicago will be a more solid 3.0 than one from Willamette Junior College. Ok, I made up the last one but you know what I mean.

I think your point is more valid the US than Canada. Here, we have a large proportion of universities that would be considered Ivy League (U of T, McGill, McMaster, UBC, Queens, Western, Dalhousie, U of Ottawa...etc). If someone applied from one of the medium sized universities (e.g. Trent, Brock, Guelph, Waterloo), I highly doubt their GPA would be discounted. While the bigger universities get more attention, the other universities are still putting out high quality, competitive graduates who get accepted to many professional and graduate programs. Bottom line: you're not going to get extra credit for a GPA from U of T, in spite of the prestige

 

[brightblueeyes]

And finally, leviathan, given that we are both extremely stubborn individuals, we need to agree to disagree before this thread gets ugly. We obviously come from different schools and being that I havent experienced another university and clearly you havent experienced U of T, our opinions are a little biased. To get to the bottom of this, we need people who have been to U of T and another school to give us their honest opinion. Otherwise, we should just forget about this and call it a night.

Even though I disagree with you regarding the difficulty of UofT Bio Science courses, I think your post shows a lot of class.

Too funny. For the UofT people, NO nobody cares how difficult it is to get high marks at your school. You wanted the 'prestige' of going to a well-known university and you got it. They will take your transcripts at face value.

Meat Cookie: you're right and I learned that the hard way and I guess I still had hope... oh well, I had to pay the price somehow

Even though I dislike all the hype surrounding UofT and think it's misleading, I still think a degree there is worth "the price". I really like the college system there. Pretty much all the staff at University College were as good as gold. I think you'd be unlikely to find that sort of support at any other Canadian or European university. Also, some students and professors there really are gifted. But I also remember that those professors who bragged about the calibre of UofT and it's difficulty also had the easiest courses. It was the professors who played down the difficulty of their material and who were willing to waive prerequisites that you had to watch out for. These were the sort of people who expected you to simply learn about partial differential equations or Existentialism or introductory Japanese on your own.

Sure, there's a lot of competition at UofT and I remember hearing complaints from other UofT students, including some who had done prior studies at other schools. But there are also some schools elsewhere in the world that carry "competition" to even higher extremes. The level at UofT seemed just about right.

If anyone reading this thread is considering going to UofT, I would recommend it highly.

 

[docbill]

UofT is the best school in Canada.

Don't argue this point. IT IS TRUE.

It is also the hardest to get great marks at for Undergrad.

For Grad study it is also much more demanding. Not hard for say.. but higher level of expectations. Articles must have a much higher impact factor.

 

[leviathan]

UofT is the best school in Canada.

Don't argue this point. IT IS TRUE.

It is also the hardest to get great marks at for Undergrad.

For Grad study it is also much more demanding. Not hard for say.. but higher level of expectations. Articles must have a much higher impact factor.

Now you've opened up another can of worms. What makes it the best school in Canada? Is it the small 2000 student class sizes? I'm pretty sure other schools have done better. Is it the competitiveness of the school? UBC has had the highest average (the only factor for admission in Canadian schools) for the past few years for most faculties. Is it the research? UofT probably has the most research being done, but how does that correlate to good teaching for students? Overall, that's a pretty definite response for such a subjective question...it depends on what kind of school you're looking for as an undergrad, and most of the major universities in Canada are just as good as one another in their quality of education.

 

[brightblueeyes]

Now you've opened up another can of worms. What makes it the best school in Canada? Is it the small 2000 student class sizes? I'm pretty sure other schools have done better. Is it the competitiveness of the school? UBC has had the highest average (the only factor for admission in Canadian schools) for the past few years for most faculties.

I think this says more about grade inflation in BC high schools than anything else.

Is it the research? UofT probably has the most research being done, but how does that correlate to good teaching for students? Overall, that's a pretty definite response for such a subjective question...it depends on what kind of school you're looking for as an undergrad, and most of the major universities in Canada are just as good as one another in their quality of education.

I agree...sort of. I think there are academic differences but I think it's counterproductive to dwell on them.

This isn't the US or the UK where there's a big difference in academic standards between the best and worst schools. The worst students at our best universities are likely much worse than the best students at our worst universities; variation within universities seems to be greater than variation between them.

Students should try to get the most they can out of their studies, regardless of where they are. Worrying about a school having academic standards that are either too high or too low just make it that much harder to stay motivated and on top of courses.

 

[knitwitty]

I think your point is more valid the US than Canada. Here, we have a large proportion of universities that would be considered Ivy League (U of T, McGill, McMaster, UBC, Queens, Western, Dalhousie, U of Ottawa...etc).

U of O and Ivy League in the same sentence?

 

[ssc_396]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if U of T is recognized in the US for its challenging education? I graduated with a 3.02 and am applying to several schools in the US, and I would like to know if they do look at the school from which I graduated and assess my GPA relatively.

Thanks

I'll ignore the last 20+ posts and answer the original question based on what I know.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Most academics outside of Canada couldn't tell you the difference between UofT and the University of Nunavut. This is my experience after a 4 year PhD at Oxford (with collaborations in France, Italy and the US) and just finishing up the MD interview process for a bunch of top schools in the US.

This is perfectly fair - Canada ranks something like 15th in the world in research. Why would anyone else know what our top Universities are? Can you tell me the best school in Japan, Australia and Germany (who all rank above us)?

If you are applying for grad school do well on the GRE. If you are applying for med school do well on the MCAT. Your Canadian undergrad school means nothing.

 

[cutiepie83]

I'll ignore the last 20+ posts and answer the original question based on what I know.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Most academics outside of Canada couldn't tell you the difference between UofT and the University of Nunavut. This is my experience after a 4 year PhD at Oxford (with collaborations in France, Italy and the US) and just finishing up the MD interview process for a bunch of top schools in the US.

This is perfectly fair - Canada ranks something like 15th in the world in research. Why would anyone else know what our top Universities are? Can you tell me the best school in Japan, Australia and Germany (who all rank above us)?

If you are applying for grad school do well on the GRE. If you are applying for med school do well on the MCAT. Your Canadian undergrad school means nothing.

Thanks for all your inputs. Just to let you guys know, I'm no longer curious. I have my answer.

Thanks

 

[Crazy Canuck]

U of O and Ivy League in the same sentence?

Oops, I got a little carried away. My bad

 

[xylem29]

Oops, I got a little carried away. My bad

As someone who attends U of T and who have friends in other U's - I can certainly say that:

1. U of T (St. George)'s reputation is true. It is one of the worst schools when it comes to undergraduate education (from student polling).

2. Whether you graduate from U of T, Trent, Brock, McGill - it doesn't matter - it is not like how it is in the US. However, where you do ur graduate degree does matter.

3. My friends and I do compare our schools and one thing emerges - they are suprised that I have to work unusually much harder than they do.

4. From friends who did first yr at U of T (st george) and who transferred to Scarborough campus - they say "it is definetely much EASIER".

5. ur rite - u can't blame u of t for ur bad grades.

6. There is a difference b/w the student body who chose Brock U and St. George (U of T) - hence the % of first yr drop outs and who made it to medicine cannot be compared.

 

[avenirv]

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/pf/richest_colleges_get_richer/index.htm

in north america UoT is on 43rd place as money. if there is any connection between money and research...
how do you define the fame of an university on the 43rd place in north america ? should we count the the european and other universities ?

 

[TKD]

Agree with paws somewhat. I'm an American who went to McGill for 2 years. I think in the US more attn. is paid to schools. From what I gather in Canada schools don't matter as much. In all honesty I think this is b/c the variation in education in the US is much greater. Let's face it from grade school to bachelors, and even law and mba schools down here the education one gets is highly dependant on the school. I think in Canada there seems to be a guarantee that each applicant will have an acceptable amount of knowledge and skills if they have a cut-off GPA from any Canadian school. Some places make it extra difficult b/c hey it's survival of the fittest. So I guess if you're intent on professional or grad school in Canada go to a school with a little less prestige, but if US is an option schools like McGill, Toronto, UBC and Dalhousie are looked very highly upon. I got that distinct impression when interviewed for dental school and residency. By the way McGill was freakin tough, but what an intellectual and enlightening place. Thankfully I was able to raise my grades after 2 years at a state school in NY!! Now if only Canadian schools accepted more Americans?

 

[jesse14]

guy, guys, guy........YORK UNIVERSITY is the way to go!! I'm in york kin and loving it....well most of it

U of T: why put yourself through the extra stress on top of getting a Univesrity degree. In my opinion, its not needed..but if that's what rocks your boat....who am i to judge?!?!

 

[jesse14]

guys, guys, guys........YORK UNIVERSITY is the way to go!! I'm in york kin and loving it....well most of it

U of T: why put yourself through the extra stress on top of getting a Univesrity degree. In my opinion, its not needed..but if that's what rocks your boat....who am i to judge?!?!

 

[brightblueeyes]

You're not getting my point. Forget it.

By the way, I forgot to mention that I'm not applying for med school, I'm actually seeking to get my Master's degree in Public Health.

cutiepie83, it sounds like your question has already been answered. But I'd like to qualify a couple of my previous comments. Even though I'm sure UofT grades are viewed no differently than grades from any other Canadian school for professional programs like Law and Medicine, I think the fact that someone attended UofT can make a difference for some grad programs. When I was at UofT, I knew about a Math student whose grad school application to MIT was initially rejected because of his less than stellar grades. However, when a UofT professor provided MIT with a detailed description of just what this student had covered in his upper year courses, he was accepted. So, it looks like the advanced nature of some UofT courses is occasionally taken into account.

I have no idea if this would help you out in your MPH application. My gut feeling is that since this is a professional program you might be out of luck. But if I were in your shoes, I'd definitely look into it, especially if you've taken any upper year courses that are related to Public Health and might interest an MPH admissions committee.

Good luck.