Two failing grades and MD?

[ceand]

Currently in my sophomore year of university and trying to pickup the pieces. My freshman year I had some personal issues that have since been resolved however my grades still reflect them. My gpa as of right now is a 1.966, I know...terrible. Since I began classes in the fall I've maintained straight A's with the addition of a winter session course. Spring session begins today but I can't help but feel discouraged with the cloud that lies above me. From the time I've spent on forums and calculating my senior year gpa (3.1 given I maintain A's) I'd be lucky to go DO. I understand MD is competitive however can two grades really be this detrimental to my future. I intend on keeping a strong upward trend, maintaining at least a 3.8 gpa for the rest of my college career. I guess my question is, am I out of the running for MD schools because of two bad grades or do I have options I'm just not aware of? Is salvaging a 1.966 gpa feasible?

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[HomeSkool]

I imagine it's more than just two grades if your GPA is 1.97. Nevertheless, it is salvageable, but you'll probably need to do a post-bacc to further increase your GPA to be competitive for either MD or DO. Read Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention.

 

[ceand]

I imagine it's more than just two grades if your GPA is 1.97. Nevertheless, it is salvageable, but you'll probably need to do a post-bacc to further increase your GPA to be competitive for either MD or DO. Read Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention.

Thank you for the advice and guide, also my grades are as follows: ANTH 101-Z ENGL 110-W UNIV 116-P MATH 221-LW COMM 212-F CHEM 103-F MATH 115-D SOCI 201-C+
The rest of my grades being A's with one B-. Do MD schools look favorably upon upward trends and retakes? My university doesn't offer grade forgiveness so the most I'd be able to do is retake the course. Thank you again.

 

[Isoval]

Honestly, I think that’s lethal for MD and borderline so for DO.

You calculate a 3.1GPA for your final GPA, and I’d imagine this assumes you make As from here on out. You’ve failed two classes and done quite poorly in another two that you’ve presented to us. What makes you think you’re suddenly going to start making straight As?

You’re very likely going to need an SMP or some other form of reinvention and a really solid plan B and C.

 

[KnShep]

Currently in my sophomore year of university and trying to pickup the pieces. My freshman year I had some personal issues that have since been resolved however my grades still reflect them. My gpa as of right now is a 1.966, I know...terrible. Since I began classes in the fall I've maintained straight A's with the addition of a winter session course. Spring session begins today but I can't help but feel discouraged with the cloud that lies above me. From the time I've spent on forums and calculating my senior year gpa (3.1 given I maintain A's) I'd be lucky to go DO. I understand MD is competitive however can two grades really be this detrimental to my future. I intend on keeping a strong upward trend, maintaining at least a 3.8 gpa for the rest of my college career. I guess my question is, am I out of the running for MD schools because of two bad grades or do I have options I'm just not aware of? Is salvaging a 1.966 gpa feasible?

I had a few bad grades my first semester as well and I ended up retaking them. The class still shows but the better grade is factored into GPA.

 

[HomeSkool]

Do MD schools look favorably upon upward trends and retakes? My university doesn't offer grade forgiveness so the most I'd be able to do is retake the course.

Both MD and DO schools look favorably upon upward trends. However, your decision about whether to retake courses should be based upon your initial grade and whether the course is a prerequisite. I posted some guidelines for retaking courses here: Simple rules for retaking courses. Reader's Digest version: never retake a non-prereq, and only retake a prereq if your grade was lower than C.

The class still shows but the better grade is factored into GPA.

AMCAS doesn't allow grade replacement, mostly to level the playing field so differing university GPA calculation policies don't give some candidates an edge over others.

 

[Goro]

Thank you for the advice and guide, also my grades are as follows: ANTH 101-Z ENGL 110-W UNIV 116-P MATH 221-LW COMM 212-F CHEM 103-F MATH 115-D SOCI 201-C+
The rest of my grades being A's with one B-. Do MD schools look favorably upon upward trends and retakes? My university doesn't offer grade forgiveness so the most I'd be able to do is retake the course. Thank you again.

Upward trends are always good.

 

[Niwde]

I was in a similar situation during undergrad. It took me an extra year and a half to bring my gpa up to a competitive level. Start planning to retake classes now and even then keep taking upper level classes. Your application is not your GPA, it is also the MCAT, ECs, etc..

I'm lucky to have received multiple interviews this year (all MD) after all was said and done. I haven't received any straight acceptances yet (read: waitlisted) though and I have a feeling my blemishes have to do with this.

You can still be hopeful but it is an uphill battle.

 

[M1i]

Both MD and DO schools look favorably upon upward trends. However, your decision about whether to retake courses should be based upon your initial grade and whether the course is a prerequisite. I posted some guidelines for retaking courses here: Simple rules for retaking courses. Reader's Digest version: never retake a non-prereq, and only retake a prereq if your grade was lower than C.


AMCAS doesn't allow grade replacement, mostly to level the playing field so differing university GPA calculation policies don't give some candidates an edge over others.

May I ask, do you know how ones grades are presented to schools your applying for? For example I hear that all GPA’s are calculated by the AMCAS and as you said grade forgiveness is neglected. So the AMCAS computes this over all GPA. Is that what an adcom see’s (or one of the first things that they see) when looking at your application. Basically I have a history of some F’s followed by time off and have returned with straight A’s for over two years now, including A’s in all the classes I had originally failed. I plan on keeping it this way till I apply. Will they just see my GPA and toss my application. Or is it presented in a way that they’ll be able to see my ‘upward trend’. It’s a fear of mine that out of sheer volume, and necessary initial elimination, that I’ll be discounted solely on my GPA before they even look at my transcripts.

 

[HomeSkool]

May I ask, do you know how ones grades are presented to schools your applying for? For example I hear that all GPA’s are calculated by the AMCAS and as you said grade forgiveness is neglected. So the AMCAS computes this over all GPA. Is that what an adcom see’s (or one of the first things that they see) when looking at your application. Basically I have a history of some F’s followed by time off and have returned with straight A’s for over two years now, including A’s in all the classes I had originally failed. I plan on keeping it this way till I apply. Will they just see my GPA and toss my application. Or is it presented in a way that they’ll be able to see my ‘upward trend’. It’s a fear of mine that out of sheer volumes, and necessary initial elimination, that I’ll be discounted solely on my GPA before they even look at my transcripts.

Adcoms see your AMCAS-calculated cGPA and sGPA by year rather than by semester, as well as your overall cGPA and sGPA. They also see all of your grades, including the F's. I wouldn't sweat it, though. Your overall cGPA and sGPA are generally more important than an individual year's values, particularly if your overall trend is upward. A couple F's early in undergrad won't keep you out of med school if you got things figured out after that.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Hello OP
Your best bet is to continue getting A's in as many courses as possible. You may need an SMP or post bacc but you still have a shot (even without an SMP). Someone I know has recieved a top 10 interview with a 3.2, but obviously with an amazing mcat. Do your best with classes now and see where you stand by the time you need to apply.

 

[21Rush12]

My first semester GPA was a 2.1, first year altogether was about 2.4. I was able to get myself up to 3.4 without straight As and I am in my second year of medical school now.

Upward trend is your friend, and consider postbacc after you’ve slayed the MCAT (514+).

 

[ceand]

Hello OP
Your best bet is to continue getting A's in as many courses as possible. You may need an SMP or post bacc but you still have a shot (even without an SMP). Someone I know has recieved a top 10 interview with a 3.2, but obviously with an amazing mcat. Do your best with classes now and see where you stand by the time you need to apply.

Thanks for the confidence booster, it’s encouraging to hear of someone in the same boat making it!

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Thanks for the confidence booster, it’s encouraging to hear of someone in the same boat making it!

Just keep in mind that that person beat about 99% of other MCAT takers and has amazing stats. Point is, none of your doors are closed, so keep on keeping.

 

[The Dragon Slayer]

Currently in my sophomore year of university and trying to pickup the pieces. My freshman year I had some personal issues that have since been resolved however my grades still reflect them. My gpa as of right now is a 1.966, I know...terrible. Since I began classes in the fall I've maintained straight A's with the addition of a winter session course. Spring session begins today but I can't help but feel discouraged with the cloud that lies above me. From the time I've spent on forums and calculating my senior year gpa (3.1 given I maintain A's) I'd be lucky to go DO. I understand MD is competitive however can two grades really be this detrimental to my future. I intend on keeping a strong upward trend, maintaining at least a 3.8 gpa for the rest of my college career. I guess my question is, am I out of the running for MD schools because of two bad grades or do I have options I'm just not aware of? Is salvaging a 1.966 gpa feasible?

Says everyone who has been in this situation. To say that you will go from having a sub 2.0 to to getting all A's is straight up magical thinking. No matter what your personal situation is/was, getting grades this low is also going to make people who review your application question whether you can handle medical school. Not trying to be mean, but it seems that this profession is becoming increasing less forgiving about "trends" or improvements in performance and is focusing more on plain metrics (i.e. high GPA/MCAT). Even if you are somehow able to get near perfect grades from this point on (which is very doubtful) that 3.1 that you would have will not get you anything in upcoming cycles for MD or DO. You can do whatever you want, but if I were you, I would look into something else.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Says everyone who has been in this situation. To say that you will go from having a sub 2.0 to to getting all A's is straight up magical thinking. No matter what your personal situation is/was, getting grades this low is also going to make people who review your application question whether you can handle medical school. Not trying to be mean, but it seems that this profession is becoming increasing less forgiving about "trends" or improvements in performance and is focusing more on plain metrics (i.e. high GPA/MCAT). Even if you are somehow able to get near perfect grades from this point on (which is very doubtful) that 3.1 that you would have will not get you anything in upcoming cycles for MD or DO. You can do whatever you want, but if I were you, I would look into something else.

This post is wrong on many levels.

1. OP has stated that he had received straight A's. Is it a fact that (s)he will continue to do so? No, but they certainly seem to have the proven capacity to do it.
2. How will him receiving good grades past freshman year make it questionable for ADCOMS in any way, given that OP has already been doing better?
3. "this profession is becoming increasing less forgiving about "trends" or improvements in performance and is focusing more on plain metrics" citation needed
4. In the 2017 cycle 15% of applicants got accepted to MD schools with GPA between 3.0-3.19, and I am too lazy to look up DO.

 

[21Rush12]

Says everyone who has been in this situation. To say that you will go from having a sub 2.0 to to getting all A's is straight up magical thinking. No matter what your personal situation is/was, getting grades this low is also going to make people who review your application question whether you can handle medical school. Not trying to be mean, but it seems that this profession is becoming increasing less forgiving about "trends" or improvements in performance and is focusing more on plain metrics (i.e. high GPA/MCAT). Even if you are somehow able to get near perfect grades from this point on (which is very doubtful) that 3.1 that you would have will not get you anything in upcoming cycles for MD or DO. You can do whatever you want, but if I were you, I would look into something else.

You can be as bitter as you want. 4 bad MCATs in a row is a trend that’s tough to forgive.

More than ever, nontrad applicants are gaining admission to Med school and more admissions policies are adapting the “most recent x credits” approach.

Trends help. Yours didn’t. We are sorry. But just because you didn’t make it doesn’t mean nobody can, and in this case there is actual AAMC published data that suggests OP has a good chance of s/he continues on this upward trend and does well on the MCAT.

Perhaps @Goro can provide some DO school perspective here as well, which is likely to be even more forgiving of OPs background provided a strong showing from here out.

 

[Goro]

Perhaps @Goro can provide some DO school perspective here as well, which is likely to be even more forgiving of OPs background provided a strong showing from here out.

You've already covered it, Rush. My work here is done

 

[Swan Ronson]

brief two cents as a non-adcom:
claw with ya finganails (pacino any given sunday) to get out of u grad with above a 3.0.
hammer the MCAT by absolutely any legal/ethical means necessary.
with those two and a good SMP performance (may or may not be necessary, but a good performance would certainly swing the odds for ya), things will be good.
its an uphill climb, but not -- i dont think -- a Sisyphean one.

 

[Stagg737]

To add another N=2:

I have a current classmate who nearly failed out of high school and barely scraped by his freshman year. He finished first two years of med school with almost straight A's, crushed boards, and last I talked to him he's applying to ACGME gen surg programs as a DO and got more interviews than he hoped for.

Had another friend in grad school who had a 1.2 GPA his freshman year of college due to family issues, dropped out for 2 years because he was going to be dismissed, went back and ended up with an "okay" GPA (idk what it was, but wasn't much higher than 3.0), killed his master's, and finished his MD a year ago and is now a resident.

Bottom line is it's very possible to overcome major setbacks, but you've got to bust your butt twice as hard to get there.

 

[Robin-jay]

You can be as bitter as you want. 4 bad MCATs in a row is a trend that’s tough to forgive.

More than ever, nontrad applicants are gaining admission to Med school and more admissions policies are adapting the “most recent x credits” approach.

Trends help. Yours didn’t. We are sorry. But just because you didn’t make it doesn’t mean nobody can, and in this case there is actual AAMC published data that suggests OP has a good chance of s/he continues on this upward trend and does well on the MCAT.

Perhaps @Goro can provide some DO school perspective here as well, which is likely to be even more forgiving of OPs background provided a strong showing from here out.

4 bad/average MCATs are unforgivable for nearly any MD school.

Many DO schools don't seem to mind. Many DO schools seem to have the mindset of "have a good recent MCAT score regardless of times taken".

NY-Tuoro accepted a guy with 9 MCATs (before 7 was the limit). Many people with 4-6 MCATs on SDN and people I know have known have gotten into lower/mid-tier DO schools.

Goro seems to be an ADCOM member of a DO school that has above-average-DO metrics, but many newer and less established DO schools don't seem as MCAT-picky in terms of times taken. Take a SMP program and do well with 5 below/average MCATs, and some DOs will still give you a chance.

 

[21Rush12]

@Robin-jay I’m sorry if it wasn’t clear — my post was in response to Dragon Slayer above who has been on more than one thread complaining about how ‘schools don’t care about trends and only like numbers’ and that people should do something else if they have a bad start, because he got rejected with the situation I mentioned. The OP in this case is really not in that bad shape if the trend continues.

I agree completely that DO schools would be much more comfortable with those metrics. Interview/interpersonal skills are a whole other story though, and probably at play.

 

[Robin-jay]

@Robin-jay I’m sorry if it wasn’t clear — my post was in response to Dragon Slayer above who has been on more than one thread complaining about how ‘schools don’t care about trends and only like numbers’ and that people should do something else if they have a bad start, because he got rejected with the situation I mentioned. The OP in this case is really not in that bad shape if the trend continues.

I agree completely that DO schools would be much more comfortable with those metrics. Interview/interpersonal skills are a whole other story though, and probably at play.

Ya I agree with your post in response to Slayer in general!

For Slayer, I just think it was less of an MCAT thing and maybe more of a GPA thing (or hasn't shown he can handle a rigorous schedule). He has yet to take an "SMP", which at this point is needed. Slayer sounds very bitter and needs to chill, but I do feel bad for someone with a 30 MCAT, excellent EC's, and a bachelors+masters degree with no grade less than a 'B'.

I also agree the OP in a perfectly fine position for DO schools. I can't see many MD schools being happy with such a poor GPA unless its very low tier or in-state.