Top 20 University (according to U.S. News) vs. Regional University

[SLU Student]

Hi all,

I am posting this on behalf of one of my younger siblings who is currently in high school. He has the option to attend a top 20 institution according to U.S. news as well as multiple state/regional universities. His goal is to attend medical school and become a physician.

My question is: why would anyone choose to attend a top 20 university and potentially have a lower GPA due to harder coursework, a +/- grading scale, etc. vs. a regional 4 year university and easily get a 4.0?

He has always excelled in standardized tests, and if this translates to the MCAT, isn't it more of a disadvantage to attend a more prestigious institution for undergrad?

For those of you on an adcom, is there some component that you factor into an individual's med school app that is derived from their undergrad institution's ranking?

Thanks for your feedback

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[libertyyne]

Hi all,

I am posting this on behalf of one of my younger siblings who is currently in high school. He has the option to attend a top 20 institution according to U.S. news as well as multiple state/regional universities. His goal is to attend medical school and become a physician.

My question is: why would anyone choose to attend a top 20 university and potentially have a lower GPA due to harder coursework, a +/- grading scale, etc. vs. a regional 4 year university and easily get a 4.0?

He has always excelled in standardized tests, and if this translates to the MCAT, isn't it more of a disadvantage to attend a more prestigious institution for undergrad?

For those of you on an adcom, is there some component that you factor into an individual's med school app that is derived from their undergrad institution's ranking?

Thanks for your feedback

Here are reasons to attend a top 20:
Some medical schools give bonus points to the rigor of achool attended.
Some medical schools inbreed heavily from their ug .
Research connectionsand availability of research
Advising is probably better .
Top 20s are feeder ugs to professional schools their ugs are disproportionately represented in medical schools accross the country.
If your sibling changes their mind regarding medical schools these schools tend to have better job prospects.
I would look at ug in particular, some top 20s heavily grade inflate nullifying your argument.

 

[Welshman]

Thinking you can easily get a 4.0 is the best way to make sure you don't get a 4.0

 

[RunawayGrape]

Going to a school like Cornell or WashU might lower GPA since they have known grade deflation, but Harvard hands out A's like candy.

Overall, undergraduate prestige matters more for the top med schools. State schools won't hold it against you if you went to state school for undergrad, but top-20 med schools definitely care about things like that. It won't be what makes or breaks an application, but it will be taken into account.

 

[Lucca]

Moving to Help me Decide

 

[libertyyne]

Moving to Help me Decide

This is a post about undergrad schools.

 

[Lucca]

Moving back to preAllo

 

[efle]

Honestly it depends a lot on the Top 20 in question. Somewhere like Brown? I'd say go there, even being average gets you a competitive GPA and premeds are common but not a majority of students. Somewhere like Hopkins? I'd say think very long and very hard about whether you're confident you'll be in the minority that makes it through, and even if you are capable of that, is that the kind of experience you want?

 

[Lucca]

It's not necessarily the case that a higher ranked school = harder to maintain a high GPA. The school in particular matters. A 3.7+ from CalTech, Cornell, Hopkins, Chicago or MIT is going to be a much harder feat than a 3.7+ from Harvard, Brown, or Yale since all of their student bodies are the same but the former have a reputation for far more brutal grading standards and coursework requirements.

 

[altblue]

Honestly it depends a lot on the Top 20 in question. Somewhere like Brown? I'd say go there, even being average gets you a competitive GPA and premeds are common but not a majority of students. Somewhere like Hopkins? I'd say think very long and very hard about whether you're confident you'll be in the minority that makes it through, and even if you are capable of that, is that the kind of experience you want?

Yea a lot of students with high 3.7s or better rarely go out. There's less time for extracirriculars, social development and simple personal enjoyment for them. Unless you're God's gift to science you're going to have to work your ass off to do well at Hopkins, and this comes at a cost

 

[SLU Student]

Hi all,

I really appreciate the feedback/discussion.

Just to clear it up, I am not advocating one option over the other. I'm not too much older than my sibling (I'm applying to med school this cycle), and I felt like I wasn't knowledgeable enough to answer his question, so I posted it here.

I would also like to retract my statement about "easily getting a 4.0." I understand that it's not necessarily "easy" anywhere. I would replace it with "an easier 4.0 relative to a top tier school." I am confident in this statement as I have had been able to personally compare two upper division science courses taken at my university vs. my regional university, and my university is only a top 100 institution.

Thanks again for this discussion. I really appreciate it.

 

[libertyyne]

Hi all,

I really appreciate the feedback/discussion.

Just to clear it up, I am not advocating one option over the other. I'm not too much older than my sibling (I'm applying to med school this cycle), and I felt like I wasn't knowledgeable enough to answer his question, so I posted it here.

I would also like to retract my statement about "easily getting a 4.0." I understand that it's not necessarily "easy" anywhere. I would replace it with "an easier 4.0 relative to a top tier school." I am confident in this statement as I have had been able to personally compare two upper division science courses taken at my university vs. my regional university, and my university is only a top 100 institution.

Thanks again for this discussion. I really appreciate it.

Not to be pedantic , your experience in one class hardly constitutes a generalizable heuristic. Some ivys coughcoughharvardcough As are the most frequently awarded grade and median gpas are also higher compared to some state school medians.

 

[efle]

Few thoughts here:

• Being slightly above average at Vandy (say a 3.6) still leaves you very competitive as far as grades, and the access to research, clinical exposure, and pretty much everything else is going to be far far better at Vandy.
• If they change their mind about medical school, pursuit of pretty much all other careers is easier coming out of a T20
• Being the biggest fish in the pond by an order of magnitude might not be the ideal college experience. I know I'm very glad I went to a school like Vandy instead of the unknown rural liberal arts college that snagged my sibling with a scholarship. I just wouldn't have been happy there no matter how easy classes were.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Moving back to preAllo

Lol

 

[DrHart]

Is cost not an issue? If not, I'd say go top 20. But you could save some serious cash if you go to a state school instead


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[efle]

For those of you on an adcom, is there some component that you factor into an individual's med school app that is derived from their undergrad institution's ranking?

Oh I should have put this earlier. Not an adcom but here is an AAMC survey of adcoms. Note selectivity of undergrad in the "highest importance" academic factors box, for private medical schools.

 

[DokterMom]

Can you name the Top 20? That'll provide some much needed perspective --

 

[kneeshoe]

Note selectivity of undergrad in the "highest importance" academic factors box, for private medical schools.

The survey you linked is from results of a 2013 survey, in the 2015 survey, selectivity of undergrad was of lowest importance (<2.5). That being said, I do still think selectivity matters a little bit for the top 20 private schools, but GPA is still most important.

 

[efle]

The survey you linked is from results of a 2013 survey, in the 2015 survey, selectivity of undergrad was of lowest importance (<2.5). That being said, I do still think selectivity matters a little bit for the top 20 private schools, but GPA is still most important.

I'm actually aware of the new one, which also showed the importance of research changing to show no difference between public and private. Discussion in some other threads led me to keep using this old one - I suspect the one from two years later either narrowly missed significance (in which case it will likely pop up again if there is a 2017 survey) or private med schools changed how they responded to the question after this survey came out and began circulating. I find it extremely unlikely they actually changed their opinions.

 

[altblue]

Few thoughts here:

• Being slightly above average at Vandy (say a 3.6) still leaves you very competitive as far as grades, and the access to research, clinical exposure, and pretty much everything else is going to be far far better at Vandy.
• If they change their mind about medical school, pursuit of pretty much all other careers is easier coming out of a T20
• Being the biggest fish in the pond by an order of magnitude might not be the ideal college experience. I know I'm very glad I went to a school like Vandy instead of the unknown rural liberal arts college that snagged my sibling with a scholarship. I just wouldn't have been happy there no matter how easy classes were.

A solid 3.6 cGPA maybe isn't too hard to get, because you can pad out your schedule with less competitive social science/humanities classes, but if you want a 3.6 sGPA you'll likely need to be in the top 3rd of your class... I don't consider that to be slightly above average. Support the rest of this tho

 

[WedgeDawg]

I'm also going to say we need the names of the schools, or at least the top 20 school.

I'm also going to move this to hSDN because it's about choosing a college.

 

[SLU Student]

Hi all,

The university in question is Duke. The state university that is the other option is the University of Oklahoma (OU).

@libertyyne Of course what I said can't be applied to all schools, but am I completely off? Would you go so far as to say as it's easier to get a higher GPA in a top 20 school than a state school? If this probability is lower than 50%, then my generalization should still be correct would it not?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Duke

 

[efle]

Hi all,

The university in question is Duke. The state university that is the other option is the University of Oklahoma (OU).

@libertyyne Of course what I said can't be applied to all schools, but am I completely off? Would you go so far as to say as it's easier to get a higher GPA in a top 20 school than a state school? If this probability is lower than 50%, then my generalization should still be correct would it not?

He should go to Duke. They are one of the reasonable top 20s without a reputation for cut throat weedout, unlike peers like Johns Hopkins. You are, in my opinion, much better off as the typical Duke premed than even as a great student at OU.

Plus, Duke >> OU if he changes his mind about medical pathway, as many do.

 

[SLU Student]

Thank you for the quick reply. The deadline for the student reply date is very soon. I will inform him about the results of this thread. Thank you all again for your help.

 

[libertyyne]

Hi all,

The university in question is Duke. The state university that is the other option is the University of Oklahoma (OU).

@libertyyne Of course what I said can't be applied to all schools, but am I completely off? Would you go so far as to say as it's easier to get a higher GPA in a top 20 school than a state school? If this probability is lower than 50%, then my generalization should still be correct would it not?

I would say its hard to prove that one way or the other. There are schools where there are t-20's where there are reports of grade inflation and then there are notoroious grade deflators like hopkins, mit, cal tech and some state flagships.Here is the best data I could find on the question and it does in fact state that average GPA is higher at private schools National Trends in Grade Inflation, American Colleges and Universities, and duke is on the high end for grade inflation changes over the measurement time.Back to your original question I would personally take duke,harvard, princeton ,dartmouth, brown, over OSU. I would probably prefer OSU over JHU, mit, cal tech, Berkeley.

 

[efle]

duke,harvard, princeton ,dartmouth, brown

princeton actually known for lower GPAs still, same for cornell

 

[libertyyne]

princeton actually known for lower GPAs still, same for cornell

my mistake.

 

[DokterMom]

Duke! The doors it will open for the rest of his/her life --
Sorry but OU - while it may (or may not be - who knows?) a fine school - will impress no one.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Duke, from what I've heard, it's one of the more gpa friendly schools in the top 20.

 

[Danny L]

Few thoughts here:

• Being slightly above average at Vandy (say a 3.6) still leaves you very competitive as far as grades, and the access to research, clinical exposure, and pretty much everything else is going to be far far better at Vandy.
• If they change their mind about medical school, pursuit of pretty much all other careers is easier coming out of a T20
• Being the biggest fish in the pond by an order of magnitude might not be the ideal college experience. I know I'm very glad I went to a school like Vandy instead of the unknown rural liberal arts college that snagged my sibling with a scholarship. I just wouldn't have been happy there no matter how easy classes were.

FYI to OP since no one mentioned it yet, Vandy is more on the grade deflation side of the spectrum if not an outright grade deflation school

Also IMO the big fish in the pond is kind of overblown. The only thing I can think of that it matters for is leadership, but even if you have lesser roles, if you spin it right it's not that far off from being president of a club. I guess GPA too but as a premed that should be a strength of yours esp if you can make it into a t20

 

[Dr. Souk]

If Duke's reputation is that it is more friendly in terms of GPA, does that not also work against you with admissions committees or does that not matter because it is Duke.

 

[efle]

If Duke's reputation is that it is more friendly in terms of GPA, does that not also work against you with admissions committees or does that not matter because it is Duke.

Admissions does not do much, if any, adjustment for the school you're coming from. Even though Brown is well known to grade much easier than Cornell, a 3.7 from Brown is much better to have than a 3.4 from Cornell.

 

[libertyyne]

Admissions does not do much, if any, adjustment for the school you're coming from. Even though Brown is well known to grade much easier than Cornell, a 3.7 from Brown is much better to have than a 3.4 from Cornell.

The caveat is that you might get a bonus in the rubric coming from a top school. So a 3.59 from brown is better than a 3.6 from state u.

 

[efle]

^ I should have put no adjustment for which top 20 you're coming from . As in, you are absolutely better off going to Duke than Hopkins, even tho the latter is known for deflation.

 

[Dr. Souk]

Admissions does not do much, if any, adjustment for the school you're coming from. Even though Brown is well known to grade much easier than Cornell, a 3.7 from Brown is much better to have than a 3.4 from Cornell.

Thanks for the follow-up. Much appreciated.

 

[IlDestriero]

I did. It worked for me. YMMV.


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Il Destriero