Top 20 Ophthalmology Residency Programs

[Corn Dog]

I know that there was a similar thread from several years ago, but I think the current applicants could benefit from an "updated" list, especially considering the fact that some programs have undergone major changes (e.g. USC).

Here's my subjective list in no particular order:

Bascom Palmer
Hopkins
Iowa
Harvard
Duke
Wash U
Michigan
Baylor
Wills
Emory
UCLA
UCSF
Penn
Mayo
IEEI
NYEEI
OHSU
Utah
Oklahoma
Wisconsin

(I deliberately left out USC, because of the recent split from the Doheny Eye Institute, but please comment if you think otherwise).

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[wooow]

Interesting list, I am currently applying and have heard great things about many of the programs on this list.

Just curious as to what sorts of qualities you consider for a "top residency" program. Obviously this will be a little different form the US News list. Also are you a med student/ applicant or resident?

 

[RestoreSight]

It really isn't possible to rank programs like this. They have widely divergent characters. Many are heavy research institutions, where others pride themselves on developing strong clinical skills. What you want is a program where you will be happy above all else. That probably starts with location close to family and friends followed by what your goals in medicine are. If you are set on academics then programs with big name faculty are the way to go, but that doesn't mean you will leave residency a better surgeon or a more highly skilled clinician. Strong clinical programs offer advantages in this respect. I think applicants are blinded by rankings and lose sight of fundamentals. Rank programs carefully, not by some arbitrary list of "top" programs, but according to where you will be successful and content.

 

[JayZBlue]

I agree that it's impossible to rank these programs without having a specific aspect of residency that you're looking for. That being said, you can't go wrong with any of the programs you listed above. I wanted to mention that you're not necessarily going to be a poor clinician/surgeon if you go to an academic program. It means that more likely than not, you'll be training with leaders in the field, many of who are amazing surgeons. Yes, big programs will have faculty who spend more time in the lab, but the majority are still clinically-oriented. Chances are, you'll also be seeing patients with crazy pathology that you'll rarely see at community programs. Many "academic" programs actually have strong surgical numbers, while many "non-academic" programs may have weak numbers. There are programs that offer both an academic environment with solid clinical training, there are programs that offer neither, and there are those in between. I would look at every program carefully and talk to many people, especially your colleagues at different institutions to get different views. As Corn Dog mentioned, programs can change very quickly, and previous reputations may not hold true, whether it's for the better or worse. Best of luck with the upcoming interviews -- they are fun.

 

[airplanes]

I feel like a Chicago program (UIC?) belongs on that list. And this is the first time I've heard of Mayo having a top ophtho program, which could just be ignorance on my part. I think UAB, Indiana, Case Western and Columbia also merit consideration.

 

[Mokaccino]

I feel like a Chicago program (UIC?) belongs on that list. And this is the first time I've heard of Mayo having a top ophtho program, which could just be ignorance on my part. I think UAB, Indiana, Case Western and Columbia also merit consideration.

Same as IEEI

 

[Mokaccino]

I think Cole eye should definitely be included

 

[Corn Dog]

Just curious as to what sorts of qualities you consider for a "top residency" program. Obviously this will be a little different form the US News list. Also are you a med student/ applicant or resident?

It's definitely difficult to rank programs, and this list is by no means definitive, so take it with a grain of salt. There are plenty of other strong programs not on the list that would provide excellent clinical training. In fact, I think that most (if not all) ophthalmology programs in the US will provide very good clinical training. I came up with the list based on Ophthalmology Times rankings (which stopped as of 2010), US News rankings, recent departmental changes, and word of mouth.

The point of this list is not to boost egos or to bash other programs. I thought it would be very helpful for applicants to get a sense of what programs are considered "top" programs, because the top ophtho programs often times do not correlate very well with med school rankings. If you have other programs that you would like to add, feel free to do so. Additionally, if there have been recent changes in the department (for the better or worse), please share.

A classmate of mine got an interview at Oklahoma, and I was baffled by his complaining that he kept on getting interviews from these "no name" places. Oklahoma is a top-tier program, and I am hoping that this list would at least be helpful for the less-informed applicants.

 

[Corn Dog]

I feel like a Chicago program (UIC?) belongs on that list.

UIC = Illinois Eye and Ear Infirmary = IEEI

And this is the first time I've heard of Mayo having a top ophtho program, which could just be ignorance on my part.

To the contrary, I've heard that the Mayo program has been a top-tier program for many years. Has made it to the Ophthalmology Times Top 10 list a few times.

Can someone else comment on the Mayo program?

 

[Corn Dog]

I think Cole eye should definitely be included

I agree with you. Perhaps we could make it a list of top 21 programs with Cole Eye?

 

[airplanes]

I think Cole eye should definitely be included

Yeah I meant Cole, not Case. Was a little bit past my bedtime.

 

[ophtho898]

UTSW or Yale?

 

[georgecostanza2]

you guys should check out this website - http://allrankings.org/health/us-best-hospitals/000048.htm

Its from the early 2000s (not 2012) but still pretty accurate according to some attendings I spoke to. Eyerounds has their own rankings somewhere if someone wants to pull it up.

My take -

1. Bascom Palmer
2. Wilmer
3. Wills
4. Harvard
5. UCLA
6. Iowa
7. Duke
8.New York Eye and Ear
9. Cleveland Clinic
10. WashU
11. UCSF
12. UMichigan
13. UPenn
14. USC (I'm guessing here, but they did manage to keep some great faculty)
15. Mayo
16. Baylor
17. Cornell
18. Columbia
19. Emory
20. UWashington

Honorable Mention -

Illinois Eye and Ear
Yale
Kresege
Northwestern

 

[EyesOnThePryze]

At first glance I can tell you that you have Emory waay too low and the lack of OHSU/Casey (not even honorable mention?) is very suprising. Columbia/Cornell are big names but their ophtho programs are no where near the caliber of either of the two aforementioned programs.

Not sure why you include UWashington, a program on the rise but clearly not quite established.

 

[georgecostanza2]

At one point Emory was without a doubt a top 10 program. However, recent shakeups in their program have really hurt it, though it remains a great institution.

I based my ranking list more on academic reputation and research. Places like Casey and Utah offer great residency training and have excellent surgical numbers. Their reputation is built more on the quality of training they offer to residents/happiness of residents who train there than raw name value (i.e. Harvard, Cornell, Columbia, Yale) and fellowship placement. Academic name brand and research wise, I personally would not place them in the top 20. They are EXCELLENT institutions and I would be lucky to match at either one.

I also go to school in the northeast and will admit to some geographic bias as well.

 

[DrMassacre]

At first glance I can tell you that you have Emory waay too low and the lack of OHSU/Casey (not even honorable mention?) is very suprising. Columbia/Cornell are big names but their ophtho programs are no where near the caliber of either of the two aforementioned programs.

agree with this 100%

 

[Vretina]

Disagree with post #15, Casey consistently receives more NIH monies for research than the majority of programs on the list. In fact, in 2011 was #2 receiving $9 million+ in research grants from NIH alone. so hard to say it doesn't have a research reputation. Moreover, fellowship placement is very good there.

As a side note, when considering a top 20 list, you cant ignore the quality of training and surgical numbers. These factors are vital. Academic name brand wont help you much when your on call and its 2am and your all alone with the surgical scope in front of you, and the scrub nurse is tapping their feet. Quality of resident education therefore does not equal brand name.

 

[georgecostanza2]

I admit that it's difficult to come up with a top 20 list at my current level of "medical student going into residency", and I will defer to those at higher levels of training and much more familiarity with different programs. That said . . .

When it comes to "rankings," I've seen many programs with different strengths. I've heard great things about Casey recently (great numbers, high resident satisfactions, amazing faculty, etc.) but honestly never heard of it until a couple of months ago. Places like Columbia and Mass Eye are without a doubt top research and name brand places, but their surgical numbers are average at best. Finally, there are places like Univeristy of Florida which has some of the most amazing cataract numbers I have seen. They would prepare me extremely well for private practice but I'm not sure about academia and fellowship.

Anyways, I just wanted to extend the conversation and learn more about programs. I'm interested in seeing what other people's lists look like.

 

[rocketbooster]

How did Northwestern get in there? It and UC are the worst programs in Chicago. That would make UIC, Loyola, Rush and Cook County all better than it. UC is def the worst.

 

[Corn Dog]

I based my ranking list more on academic reputation and research. Places like Casey and Utah offer great residency training and have excellent surgical numbers. Their reputation is built more on the quality of training they offer to residents/happiness of residents who train there than raw name value (i.e. Harvard, Cornell, Columbia, Yale) and fellowship placement.

This brings up a couple of good discussion points about determining the caliber of ophtho programs.

A common misconception among med students is to automatically assume that top med schools would have top ophthalmology programs, which is not necessarily the case. Stanford and Yale are examples of fantastic med schools with weaker ophtho programs.

Similarly, another misconception is to automatically think less of ophtho programs associated with lesser-known med schools, which again is often not the case in the ophtho world. Oklahoma is a perfect example.

 

[Corn Dog]

14. USC (I'm guessing here, but they did manage to keep some great faculty)

How do you know which faculty members have left and stayed? The faculty listing on the website is outdated (for example, the USC website still lists Dr. Rohit Varma under Glaucoma (link below), but he's been the chair at UIC-IEEI almost for a year now). The chairman at my home program (a "top 10" program) and friends who had trained at USC told me that the program is now in disarray. This could be temporary and resolved with time, but nevertheless, all applicants should keep this in mind when the ranking time comes for the match.

http://keck.usc.edu/en/Education/Ac...hthalmology/Clinical_Activities/Glaucoma.aspx

http://chicago.medicine.uic.edu/cms/One.aspx?portalId=506244&pageId=17221335

At one point Emory was without a doubt a top 10 program. However, recent shakeups in their program have really hurt it, though it remains a great institution.

What "recent shakeups" at Emory are you referring to? I have not heard of any. Please share the specifics. The only relatively recent change that I'm aware of is the departure of two prominent retina faculty members who left Emory to become chairs at Cole Eye and Vanderbilt, which I think reflects positively on the department.

 

[helpfulstranger]

I think this discussion about rankings and which programs are better and the best highlights exactly what is wrong with medical students and the ophthalmology residency match today. It's shortsighted and downright illogical to create a linear scale from decidedly abstract and multidimensional concepts. It is the fallacy of reification. (For those of you who haven't read the Mismeasure of Man by Steven Jay Gould, I highly recommend it.) I have heard it once said that medical students are more competitive than they are smart.

My view, which of course you must take with a small grain of salt (or is it large grain of salt..whatever), is that students should choose a program based on how that program aligns with their own goals and personal values, with their own personality and the location of their support network, their interest in academics over clinical training, or vice versa. Rather than striving for the highest ranked program, we should be determining which program "fits." Maybe the matching algorithm should start taking these in to account...

 

[mem6987]

How did Northwestern get in there? It and UC are the worst programs in Chicago. That would make UIC, Loyola, Rush and Cook County all better than it. UC is def the worst.

I'd have to disagree with this statement. Northwestern actually beat out IEEI according to US News and is now considered the #1 program in Chicago.

 

[dantt]

A common misconception among med students is to automatically assume that top med schools would have top ophthalmology programs, which is not necessarily the case. Stanford and Yale are examples of fantastic med schools with weaker ophtho programs.

Similarly, another misconception is to automatically think less of ophtho programs associated with lesser-known med schools, which again is often not the case in the ophtho world. Oklahoma is a perfect example.

Agreed. Perfect example is university of miami...who would have thought #1 program in the country?

Yale has arguably the weakest program in New England, hardly top 10-20/honorable mention material (no offense intended).

 

[EyesOnThePryze]

Rather than striving for the highest ranked program, we should be determining which program "fits."

Which is great, generic advice that most applicants already take into account and is left unsaid.

I'd have to disagree with this statement. Northwestern actually beat out IEEI according to US News and is now considered the #1 program in Chicago.

If you want to make a compelling argument, I would not start with the US News rankings.

 

[DrMassacre]

I'd have to disagree with this statement. Northwestern actually beat out IEEI according to US News and is now considered the #1 program in Chicago.

USnews does not always correlate with residency training. IEEI is definitely much stronger than Northwestern.

 

[rocketbooster]

I'd have to disagree with this statement. Northwestern actually beat out IEEI according to US News and is now considered the #1 program in Chicago.

No on all accounts. Here is the newest US News ranking (http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings/ophthalmology ) and Northwestern is nowhere to be seen in the top 16.

And how familiar are you with Chicago? I have ties to the city and did a few away rotations at programs there. UIC is without a doubt the best program there and Northwestern is one of the worst. Stop your nonsense

 

[BTS]

I think this discussion about rankings and which programs are better and the best highlights exactly what is wrong with medical students and the ophthalmology residency match today. It's shortsighted and downright illogical to create a linear scale from decidedly abstract and multidimensional concepts. It is the fallacy of reification. (For those of you who haven't read the Mismeasure of Man by Steven Jay Gould, I highly recommend it.) I have heard it once said that medical students are more competitive than they are smart.

My view, which of course you must take with a small grain of salt (or is it large grain of salt..whatever), is that students should choose a program based on how that program aligns with their own goals and personal values, with their own personality and the location of their support network, their interest in academics over clinical training, or vice versa. Rather than striving for the highest ranked program, we should be determining which program "fits." Maybe the matching algorithm should start taking these in to account...

This is exactly right. Half of the programs that seem to show up on these "best of" lists are tremendous places for people interested in academics but only mediocre for clinical training. Meanwhile, places like Rochester, Oklahoma and Utah - which are some of the best places to obtain CLINICAL training in the country - seem to be discounted for some reason or other.

Published "rankings" are completely unscientific. Have people on this thread looked at the methodology of USNews and Ophthalmology Times? If you haven't, you should - and if you still take those rankings seriously, then I'm not sure what to say.

I think the emphasis that applicants put on rankings is a combination of competitiiveness (wanting to be at the "best" place - whatever that means) and fear of the unknown (not wanting to go to a place that is really bad - which doesn't really exist btw).

My advice (as someone who has previously advised medical students on this stuff) is to figure out, as best you can, what YOU want out of a career. Find the place that a) will help you meet those goals and b) you will be happy at.

 

[RestoreSight]

I'd have to disagree with this statement. Northwestern actually beat out IEEI according to US News and is now considered the #1 program in Chicago.

This is false. There is no way Northwestern tops UIC. UIC has more big name faculty, sees more patients, hosts every major conference in Chicago (including weekend didactics that Northwestern residents must attend) and is the major referral center for all ophtho related trauma and emergencies in Illinois. No one that lives a hundred miles from Chicago would agree wtih you.

The problem with US news is that its just a survey. I would argue there is no way to rank ophtho programs in order. There are just too many different and sometimes competing factors to take into account.

 

[squishme]

Can someone comment on the USC/Doheny split and what that means on the program? I'm deciding whether it's worth interviewing there at the moment and could really use some insight.

 

[RestoreSight]

My personal advise would be to avoid a program involved in so much transition right now unless you have another compelling reason to be in Los Angeles. IMHO USC is on a downslide with recovery a long way in the future.

 

[Corn Dog]

Can someone comment on the USC/Doheny split and what that means on the program? I'm deciding whether it's worth interviewing there at the moment and could really use some insight.

I think you should still go and interview there if you have the time and resources to do so. Everything that's been said here about the program is based on hearsay. I don't think anyone really knows what kind of situation the program is in right now. Perhaps the faculty is largely intact after the split. Perhaps the surgical volume and clinical training are still stellar. I am sure the USC program would go over everything at the interview.

Make your final decision afterwards when the time comes to submit the rank list. Good luck.

 

[rocketbooster]

This is false. There is no way Northwestern tops UIC. UIC has more big name faculty, sees more patients, hosts every major conference in Chicago (including weekend didactics that Northwestern residents must attend) and is the major referral center for all ophtho related trauma and emergencies in Illinois. No one that lives a hundred miles from Chicago would agree wtih you.

The problem with US news is that its just a survey. I would argue there is no way to rank ophtho programs in order. There are just too many different and sometimes competing factors to take into account.

Actually that's no longer the case. UC and Northwestern do not take part in the weekend lectures now. I don't know when it changed. I just know as of last month UIC, Loyola and Rush are the programs that attend the didactics. Not sure on Cook County.

But yea, I agree with everything else you said.

And the US News (http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings/ophthalmology) doesn't even rank Northwestern period. That is guy is pulling stuff out of his butt.

 

[RestoreSight]

Actually that's no longer the case. UC and Northwestern do not take part in the weekend lectures now. I don't know when it changed. I just know as of last month UIC, Loyola and Rush are the programs that attend the didactics. Not sure on Cook County.

But yea, I agree with everything else you said.

And the US News (http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings/ophthalmology) doesn't even rank Northwestern period. That is guy is pulling stuff out of his butt.

My good friend is at Northwestern. They still are required to attend. Def UIC, Loyola and Rush. Not sure about UC or Cook

 

[rocketbooster]

My good friend is at Northwestern. They still are required to attend. Def UIC, Loyola and Rush. Not sure about UC or Cook

Ah, ok. That's just what one of the residents at UIC/Loyola/Rush told me last month. All I know is I don't want Saturday lecture. Forget that. It's only 9-11am but it still sucks to have wake up every Saturday for it. In terms of attendance, they expect 90% of first years, 75% of second years, and I think 50% of third years.

 

[RestoreSight]

Ah, ok. That's just what one of the residents at UIC/Loyola/Rush told me last month. All I know is I don't want Saturday lecture. Forget that. It's only 9-11am but it still sucks to have wake up every Saturday for it. In terms of attendance, they expect 90% of first years, 75% of second years, and I think 50% of third years.

Yah, avoid programs with Saturday lectures if you can.

 

[mem6987]

Yah, avoid programs with Saturday lectures if you can.

agreed, to each their own, and that one shouldn't just use the US News Rankings to choose, but both NU and IEEI aren't ranked in the top 16 and the difference between the two are small based on repuation (3.4 vs. 3.3%). In case you were wondering where in my butt I pulled the #s from:
http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/area/il/northwestern-memorial-hospital-6430545/ophthalmology
http://health.usnews.com/best-hospi...linois-hospital-chicago-6430553/ophthalmology

i'm also pretty familiar with the Chicago programs and know that the new chairman at NU @ Dr. Volpe has done some amazing things to change their program. He was clearly beloved at Scheie for his desire in resident education.

Don't want to get into any debates with everyone, but we should all just experience the schools on the interview trail and just try to find one that fits with us the best.

 

[wooow]

This is exactly right. Half of the programs that seem to show up on these "best of" lists are tremendous places for people interested in academics but only mediocre for clinical training. Meanwhile, places like Rochester, Oklahoma and Utah - which are some of the best places to obtain CLINICAL training in the country - seem to be discounted for some reason or other.

Published "rankings" are completely unscientific. Have people on this thread looked at the methodology of USNews and Ophthalmology Times? If you haven't, you should - and if you still take those rankings seriously, then I'm not sure what to say.

I think the emphasis that applicants put on rankings is a combination of competitiiveness (wanting to be at the "best" place - whatever that means) and fear of the unknown (not wanting to go to a place that is really bad - which doesn't really exist btw).

My advice (as someone who has previously advised medical students on this stuff) is to figure out, as best you can, what YOU want out of a career. Find the place that a) will help you meet those goals and b) you will be happy at.

Yes I would agree with the posts about lists being pointless, but for people who haven't been around ophtho for more than a few years now its hard to find out which programs are like Oklahoma and Utah, which is what I first found interesting about Corn Dog's list. Obviously anyone can go and look at the top 16 programs from US News but that list is in no way meant for the residency program itself.

And yes, I would be interested in knowing which programs are most competitive. I would think that most applicants are looking for places with good training, a good environment to train in and good options in private practice or academics after residency making them most competitive. While some programs on these lists are based on reputation even though they may have poor surgical training or a harsh environment for residents, most of them offer great everything and just happen to be the big name places.

 

[Ophthimist1]

How good is the Case Western program?

 

[greeniris]

Bump! Does anyone have any input on the Case Western program?

 

[4ophtho]

you guys should check out this website - http://allrankings.org/health/us-best-hospitals/000048.htm

Its from the early 2000s (not 2012) but still pretty accurate according to some attendings I spoke to. Eyerounds has their own rankings somewhere if someone wants to pull it up.

My take -

1. Bascom Palmer
2. Wilmer
3. Wills
4. Harvard
5. UCLA
6. Iowa
7. Duke
8.New York Eye and Ear
9. Cleveland Clinic
10. WashU
11. UCSF
12. UMichigan
13. UPenn
14. USC (I'm guessing here, but they did manage to keep some great faculty)
15. Mayo
16. Baylor
17. Cornell
18. Columbia
19. Emory
20. UWashington

Honorable Mention -

Illinois Eye and Ear
Yale
Kresege
Northwestern

This really is an inaccurate list. I would not agree with this at all

The best program for you depends on what you want out of a program. Harvard is great of you want to stay in academics, but it might not be the best choice if you want t high volume surgical residency (I believe they ship you off to Maine to get sufficient cataract numbers)

If you want to be a well rounded clinician and be a competently trained comprehensive ophthalmologist, regardless of whether or not you choose a fellowship, you ought to look for a busy program that has:
1 resident clinic in a county hospital in a metropolitan location for indigent population
2 VA hospital for high volume cataract surgery
3 private university hospital where attendings see patients
4 children's hospital
5 faculty well represented in all sub specialties
Ideally you wouldn't be competing for patients with other training programs in the area as well.

For the latter, places like Emory, Baylor ought to be much higher in the list above

 

[georgecostanza2]

[

 

[speyeder]

Agree with #1-7. I wouldn't include Columbia, Cornell, NYEEI, UCSF or U. Washington in the top 20. I think Oklahoma, Utah, Casey, UIC and Kresge belong on the list. Emory, Michigan and Baylor should also be higher.

 

[MEEI Res]

Hi, I'm a senior resident at Mass Eye and Ear. Occasional poster, but made a new user name for this purpose. We've been getting a reputation on SDN and elsewhere as an academic program (true), with low surgical volume (false). This is not an accurate portrayal of the current program, and I wanted to provide what it's really like at MEEI. Will double post in the Top 20 and Program Compendium threads.

Many curriculum changes and new faculty hires have significantly boosted our surgical volume. In response to posting #18, we do 150-200 cataracts as primary surgeon, which is great for a highly academic program. We start intraocular surgery as 1st/2nd years in a structured phaco curriculum. The numbers are improving every year. It's still October and I'm at 140, with a projected 200+. Our numbers in other subspecialties are solid too, with > 90th percentile in open globes, 100-150 oculoplastics, etc.

In response to #41, we do go to Maine's VA for a rotation, and it's a wonderful block--actually a favorite of the residents. No one would say it's a negative aspect of the program. We also cover the Boston VA (with BU), BWH, BI, Children's (with BU), and MGH. We have a wide referral base which allows us to treat the most complex of cases. The above numbers do not include the small incision cataract surgery we learn at Aravind as senior residents.

We're a clinically and surgically strong program, while maintaining our academic roots, and have a good balance between autonomy in our ED/VAs/affiliate hospitals, and guidance from our MEEI attendings. Please feel free to PM me with any questions.

 

[RestoreSight]

Hi, I'm a senior resident at Mass Eye and Ear. Occasional poster, but made a new user name for this purpose. We've been getting a reputation on SDN and elsewhere as an academic program (true), with low surgical volume (false). This is not an accurate portrayal of the current program, and I wanted to provide what it's really like at MEEI. Will double post in the Top 20 and Program Compendium threads.

Many curriculum changes and new faculty hires have significantly boosted our surgical volume. In response to posting #18, we do 150-200 cataracts as primary surgeon, which is great for a highly academic program. We start intraocular surgery as 1st/2nd years in a structured phaco curriculum. The numbers are improving every year. It's still October and I'm at 140, with a projected 200+. Our numbers in other subspecialties are solid too, with > 90th percentile in open globes, 100-150 oculoplastics, etc.

In response to #41, we do go to Maine's VA for a rotation, and it's a wonderful block--actually a favorite of the residents. No one would say it's a negative aspect of the program. We also cover the Boston VA (with BU), BWH, BI, Children's (with BU), and MGH. We have a wide referral base which allows us to treat the most complex of cases. The above numbers do not include the small incision cataract surgery we learn at Aravind as senior residents.

We're a clinically and surgically strong program, while maintaining our academic roots, and have a good balance between autonomy in our ED/VAs/affiliate hospitals, and guidance from our MEEI attendings. Please feel free to PM me with any questions.

Why are you posting the same thing on two different threads? We get it.. you like MEEI.

 

[MEEI Res]

Why are you posting the same thing on two different threads?

It was a response to several comments made in this thread, but I thought it would also be nice to have in the Program Compendium for current and future applicants to easily access. Similar to how Dr. Doan was pasting previous comments about programs into the Compendium, which I think is a great resource and encourage others to utilize also.

 

[LightBox]

We just need the defense post from the Wilmer senior resident now ;-)

 

[Ophthimist1]

How good is the Loyola program? How does it rank?

 

[wei_c25]

.

 

[Corn Dog]

Any list that doesn't include Utah has very little credibility in my view.

Just to clarify... my list had Utah.