Top 20 academic general surgery programs nationwide.

[asdfaa]

What are they? I'm talking about academic reputation, prestige, etc. I'm not implying that this is the best or even a good way to judge a program. I'm guessing the list includes the following. I don't really know what the order might be.

1. UW
2. Columbia
3. Cornell
4. UCLA
5. Stanford
6. Duke
7. Emory
8. U of Chicago
9. Northwestern
10 NYU
11. MGH
12. Johns Hopkins
13. Mt.Sinai
14. B&W
15. Beth Israel Deaconess
16. UPenn
17. Northwestern
18. Mayo
19.UTsouthwestern
20.Baylor

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[fishmonger69]

WashU is missing

 

[asdfaa]

WashU is missing

Who would you throw out to make room for WashU?

 

[DrG]

u have northwestern listed twice

 

[asdfaa]

u have northwestern listed twice

Oops.

1. UW
2. Columbia
3. Cornell
4. UCLA
5. Stanford
6. Duke
7. Emory
8. U of Chicago
9. WashU
10 NYU
11. MGH
12. Johns Hopkins
13. Mt.Sinai
14. B&W
15. Beth Israel Deaconess
16. UPenn
17. Northwestern
18. Mayo
19.UTsouthwestern
20.Baylor

 

[THE instiGATOR]

UVa?

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

That is a good list to start, but there are some that should be there - Indiana, Minnesota, Wash U, UNC, Louisville. The problem is that there are many good or "top" academic surgery programs I think it would be tough to make that list only 20. There are some good threads in the past that talk extensively about this issue.
And what one person considers the best may differ from another's views. What is most important in deciding a "top" surgery program? Research, fellowship placement, program name, big names in the field in the department, OR time/case load, etc are all variables that can be considered. That is why it is hard to make such lists, these things are subjective, for the most part.
But yeah, that is a very good list of some very good academic surgery programs.

 

[puestow]

Michigan should definitely be included on the list of top 20 general surgery programs.

 

[jayman]

So should Pittsburgh.

 

[asdfaa]

That is a good list to start, but there are some that should be there - Indiana, Minnesota, Wash U, UNC, Louisville. The problem is that there are many good or "top" academic surgery programs I think it would be tough to make that list only 20. There are some good threads in the past that talk extensively about this issue.
And what one person considers the best may differ from another's views. What is most important in deciding a "top" surgery program? Research, fellowship placement, program name, big names in the field in the department, OR time/case load, etc are all variables that can be considered. That is why it is hard to make such lists, these things are subjective, for the most part.
But yeah, that is a very good list of some very good academic surgery programs.

Thanks. You're right, I'm looking for a fairly subjective list. Assuming there are only 20 prizes, who do the oscars go to. I'm curious about this because my school's program considers itself to be one of the top 10 most prestigous programs in the country but after searching the SDN database I see that almost no one counts them in the top 10. I'm wondering if we're even in anyone's top 20. And while this is subjective, the readers here know more than most, so this seems like a good place to ask. BTW, I'd tell you what program I'm talking about but I don't want to bias the outcome.

 

[asdfaa]

Michigan should definitely be included on the list of top 20 general surgery programs.

So, include it then. Just remove whoever you think is less prestigeous than Michigan.

 

[puestow]

So, include it then. Just remove whoever you think is less prestigeous than Michigan.

Just my 2 cents.

1. UW
2. Columbia
3. Cornell
4. UCLA
5. Stanford
6. Duke
7. Emory
8. U of Chicago
9. WashU
10 NYU
11. MGH
12. Johns Hopkins
13. Michigan
14. B&W
15. Pittsburgh
16. UPenn
17. Northwestern
18. UCSF
19. UTsouthwestern
20. Cincinnati

 

[avgjoe]

Just my 2 cents.

1. UW
2. Columbia
3. Cornell
4. UCLA
5. Stanford
6. Duke
7. Emory
8. U of Chicago
9. WashU
10 NYU
11. MGH
12. Johns Hopkins
13. Michigan
14. B&W
15. Pittsburgh
16. UPenn
17. Northwestern
18. UCSF
19. UTsouthwestern
20. Cincinnati

Proposing Baylor or UVa instead of Stanford..

 

[asdfaa]

Proposing Baylor or UVa instead of Stanford..

No need to propose. Just make the switch.

 

[BamaFlip]

This is from my chairman, Dr. Kirby Bland, arguably one of the most respected and famous academic surgeons in the country. (Editor of the Journal of American Surgery, Just stepped down as president of the RRC, etc, etc...)

In no particular order:

1. UAB
2. MGH
3. Hopkins
4. UCLA
5. WashU
6. Univ of Washington
7. UCSF
8. Brigham
9. Beth Israel Deaconess
10. Mayo Rochester
11. Michigan
12. Duke
13. Vandy
14. U Penn
15. Pitt
16. Northwestern
17. Columbia
18. Emory
19. Minnesota
20. UNC/UVA/Brown/Wake Forest

Just a different perspective from one of the biggest of the "big dogs" in the world academic surgery.

 

[Surg2b]

Keep in mind that it is hard to come up with an absolute top 20 since when so many variables are involved. In no particular order, below are what I believe to be the top 20 programs, and runners up, grouped by region. Of course, opinions will vary.


West:
1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Stanford

MidWest:
5. Michigan
6. Northwestern
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Wisconsin

South:
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Vanderbilt
14. UAB

NorthEast:
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Cornell
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Cincinnati
NYU
Columbia
Louisville
Indiana
UVA
Baylor
Ohio State
U of Florida (Gainesville)
Baylor
UNC

 

[toxic-megacolon]

West:
1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Stanford

MidWest:
5. Michigan
6. Northwestern
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota

South:
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Vanderbilt
14. UAB

NorthEast:
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Yale
Indiana
Baylor
Cornell
Wisconsin

Now its starting to take shape.

 

[geekgirl]

these last two lists look more like how this kind of list should look.

it was a little all over the place before, i think.
there will always be variability in a few.

 

[asdfaa]

Let's take the regions out of it. There's no regional quota. Best in a region doesn't mean squat. This is a 20 most prestigous programs nationwide, list.


1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Stanford
5. Michigan
6. Northwestern
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Vanderbilt
14. UAB
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Yale
Indiana
Baylor
Cornell
Wisconsin

 

[Surg2b]

I didn't organize it into regions because of any quotas. I don't think there should be any quotas myself. Instead, I organized it that way for the sake of ease of reading, and so that it is easier to tell whether any programs have been left out or included.

Let's take the regions out of it. There's no regional quota. Best in a region doesn't mean squat. This is a 20 most prestigous programs nationwide, list.


1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Stanford
5. Michigan
6. Northwestern
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Vanderbilt
14. UAB
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Yale
Indiana
Baylor
Cornell
Wisconsin

 

[asdfaa]

I didn't organize it into regions because of any quotas. I don't think there should be any quotas myself. Instead, I organized it that way for the sake of ease of reading, and so that it is easier to tell whether any programs have been left out or included.

Yeah, I didn't think you did. It's just hard not to think regionally when you look at them that way. That's why I took the regional headers out but left the list as it was.

 

[avgjoe]

1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Cornell
5. Michigan
6. Northwestern
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Vanderbilt
14. UAB
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Yale
Indiana
Baylor
Stanford
Wisconsin

Feel like Baylor should be up there as well but can't see any I'd want to replace - I guess that's why it's a runnerup!

Btw good luck to everyone tomorrow am!

 

[geekgirl]

i do think region is important when it actually comes time to pick places and rank them.
WHERE becomes a really huge factor, actually. which gets in to the whole "there is no best, just best fit" argument.

 

[asdfaa]

i do think region is important when it actually comes time to pick places and rank them.
WHERE becomes a really huge factor, actually. which gets in to the whole "there is no best, just best fit" argument.

I agree, but this isn't about which program is "the best". That would depend very much on what you're looking for. This is a subjective question about which are the 20 most academically prestigious programs in the country.

 

[Hitch]

I think Baylor definately trumps vanderbilt.



1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Cornell
5. Michigan
6. Northwestern
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Baylor
14. UAB
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Yale
Indiana
Vandy
Stanford
Wisconsin

 

[John K. Toole]

I would reinsert Vanderbilt and drop Northwestern. It is a great place, but it is less "academic" that many of the others, plus their chairman, Dr. Bell, is reportedly leaving. He makes the place great. Also, having Hopkins there is fine, but there name from the Cameron era is very different from what they are now.

I think Baylor definately trumps vanderbilt.



1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Cornell
5. Michigan
6. Northwestern
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Baylor
14. UAB
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Yale
Indiana
Vandy
Stanford
Wisconsin

 

[FACS]

I would reinsert Vanderbilt and drop Northwestern. It is a great place, but it is less "academic" that many of the others, plus their chairman, Dr. Bell, is reportedly leaving. He makes the place great. Also, having Hopkins there is fine, but there name from the Cameron era is very different from what they are now.

I'll do it for ya.


1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Cornell
5. Michigan
6. Vanderbilt
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Baylor
14. UAB
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Yale
Indiana
Northwestern
Stanford
Wisconsin

 

[toxic-megacolon]

For surgery, is Baylor really better than Northwestern in terms of academic prestige??? Yeah, the Texas Medical Center is impressive. But Baylor is only part of that. And MD Anderson is not affiliated with Baylor either.


1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Cornell
5. Michigan
6. Vanderbilt
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Northwestern
14. UAB
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Yale
Indiana
Baylor
Stanford
Wisconsin

 

[Pilot Doc]

Adding a bit of objective data:

Top 20 Surgery Programs by NIH funding

(in order)
1. Duke
2. WashU (St. Louis)
3. Penn
4. Pitt
5. UCSF
6. UAB
7. Michigan
8. Geffen/UCLA
9. Maryland
10. Stanford
11. Emory
12. Minnesota
13. U. Wash (Seattle)
14. Vandy
15. Miami
16. UT Galveston
17. UNJ Newark
18. Wisconsin
19. Baylor
20. UCSD

Clearly not a perfect list, but still interesting.

 

[dinosaurcrumpet]

Adding a bit of objective data:

Top 20 Surgery Programs by NIH funding

(in order)
1. Duke
2. WashU (St. Louis)
3. Penn
4. Pitt
5. UCSF
6. UAB
7. Michigan
8. Geffen/UCLA
9. Maryland
10. Stanford
11. Emory
12. Minnesota
13. U. Wash (Seattle)
14. Vandy
15. Miami
16. UT Galveston
17. UNJ Newark
18. Wisconsin
19. Baylor
20. UCSD

Clearly not a perfect list, but still interesting.

Interesting. Goes to show that NIH funding doesn't equal prestige.

 

[John K. Toole]

Adding a bit of objective data:

Top 20 Surgery Programs by NIH funding

(in order)
1. Duke
2. WashU (St. Louis)
3. Penn
4. Pitt
5. UCSF
6. UAB
7. Michigan
8. Geffen/UCLA
9. Maryland
10. Stanford
11. Emory
12. Minnesota
13. U. Wash (Seattle)
14. Vandy
15. Miami
16. UT Galveston
17. UNJ Newark
18. Wisconsin
19. Baylor
20. UCSD

Clearly not a perfect list, but still interesting.

Thanks for posting this....objective data is a nice change of pace. Of course, there are still some caveats to this. The Department of Surgery at Duke encompasses many more divisions than some of the others on this list. Included in the Duke NIH number are Ortho surg, Plastics, Neurosurg, etc. This is NOT the case for at least a few of the others that I know first hand. Even this data warrants a deeper look....

 

[Pilot Doc]

. The Department of Surgery at Duke encompasses many more divisions than some of the others on this list...

Their AIDS center is apparently included in it as well!

 

[asdfaa]

Thanks for posting this....objective data is a nice change of pace.

Objective data is all very well in it's place. But I did ask for subjective opinions on which programs were considered most prestigeous.


1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Cornell
5. Michigan
6. Vanderbilt
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Northwestern
14. UAB
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Yale
Indiana
Baylor
Stanford
Wisconsin

 

[SurgeryChef]

Really stupid question: what's the differences between MGH and the brigham? is one "better" than the other?

 

[John K. Toole]

1. U of Washington
2. UCSF
3. UCLA
4. Cornell
5. Michigan
6. Vanderbilt
7. U of Chicago
8. WashU
9. Minnesota
10. UTsouthwestern
11. Duke
12. Emory
13. Baylor
14. UAB
15. MGH
16. Brigham & W
17. Johns Hopkins
18. Columbia
19. Pittsburgh
20. UPenn

Runners Up:
Northwestern
Yale
Indiana
Cincinnati
Stanford
Wisconsin

In addition, I won't change it here, but I think Hopkins is alive by reputation alone. The next few years under Dr. Freischlag will determine whether it will re-emerge as a front-runner. They have fallen from 1st in NIH funding 15 years ago to 31st currently...

 

[Blade28]

Really stupid question: what's the differences between MGH and the brigham? is one "better" than the other?

They're two separate programs. In addition to Beth Israel Deaconess, they're the Harvard-affiliated programs in Boston/Cambridge.

 

[maverick_pkg]

no place for Mayo, Rochester?

 

[jayman]

no place for Mayo, Rochester?

Well, you guys did create oral steroids in the lab - cortisol, perhaps? Too bad you guys didn't patent it! Oops!

 

[Tenesma]

the problem w/ NIH funding is that that list goes by academic institution... and leaves out MGH (which is its own institution as a non-profit hospital) which receives over 400 million a year in research - of which a chunk goes to surgical research...

 

[footcramp]

what are the top 10 west coast and top 10 northeast programs by reputation?

 

[toxic-megacolon]

what are the top 10 west coast and top 10 northeast programs by reputation?

My humble opinion for the West Coast (commenting on academic rep, not necessarily clinical training)

1. UCLA
2. UCSF
3. UW
4. UCSD
5. Stanford
6. Oregon
7. USC
8. UC Davis
9. UCLA-Harbor
10. Santa Barbara Cottage vs. Kaiser LA

Who did I forget?

 

[footcramp]

My humble opinion for the West Coast (commenting on academic rep, not necessarily clinical training)

1. UCLA
2. UCSF
3. UW
4. UCSD
5. Stanford
6. Oregon
7. USC
8. UC Davis
9. UCLA-Harbor
10. Santa Barbara Cottage vs. Kaiser LA

Who did I forget?

How does Irvine, Cedars Sinai, Loma Linda, Virginia Mason, UCSF East Bay, or UCSF Fresno, compare to the others in the #10 spot? Any reason for putting USC higher than Harbor and Davis?

Anyone have Northeast ideas?
MGH, Brigham, Hopkins, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, are probably up there. What about the rest like Yale, Beth Israel Deaconess, NYU, New England Medical Center, Einstein, Mt Sinai, another others, etc

 

[toxic-megacolon]

How does Irvine, Cedars Sinai, Loma Linda, Virginia Mason, UCSF East Bay, or UCSF Fresno, compare to the others in the #10 spot? Any reason for putting USC higher than Harbor and Davis?

Anyone have Northeast ideas?
MGH, Brigham, Hopkins, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, are probably up there. What about the rest like Yale, Beth Israel Deaconess, NYU, New England Medical Center, Einstein, Mt Sinai, another others, etc

Oops, forgot UCI, let me rewrite my list.
1. UCLA
2. UCSF
3. UW
4. UCSD
5. Stanford
6. Oregon
7. USC
8. UC Davis
9. UCI
10. UCLA-Harbor

I think USC desrves to be up there because it has some big name faculty, like Demester, and the LA County trauma experience is known and respected accross the country. That said, purely on academics, Davis is probably one the best in critical care on the west coast.

 

[cytoskelement]

As far as I've heard, Baylor is no longer affiliated with Methodist Hospital. Methodist has a lot of money and was truly an asset to the program.

 

[TxMed]

As far as I've heard, Baylor is no longer affiliated with Methodist Hospital. Methodist has a lot of money and was truly an asset to the program.

this is quite true...alot of the problem (as far as i've been told) has been faculty defecting to methodist in the split. i'm not sure that baylor would have been considered top 10-20 caliber even before the split.

 

[Winged Scapula]

How does Irvine, Cedars Sinai, Loma Linda, Virginia Mason, UCSF East Bay, or UCSF Fresno, compare to the others in the #10 spot? Any reason for putting USC higher than Harbor and Davis?

Anyone have Northeast ideas?
MGH, Brigham, Hopkins, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, are probably up there. What about the rest like Yale, Beth Israel Deaconess, NYU, New England Medical Center, Einstein, Mt Sinai, another others, etc

UCSF-Fresno would be MUCH lower ranked. It benefits from having the UCSF affiliation but it and Kern frequently don't fill their program(s) and the quality of the teaching (as someone who worked at UCSF-Fresno for many years) does not equal that of the top ten.

 

[Doc Ivy]

I was talking to our PD today, and he said that Colorado is one of the top tier programs which is strange b/c I haven't seen it on anyone's list--- any thoughts?

 

[Doc Ivy]

no place for Mayo, Rochester?

Again, another tidbit from my PD-- avoid the "clinics" for residency (Mayo, Cleveland etc) but target them for fellowship. As a resident, you might not get a ton of cases b/c fellows do so much

 

[ElliotAR]

A few things:

1) I don't think Baylor has any place on a top twenty list, Vandy has a far superior surgical experince and fellowship placement.

2) Colorado is a great program, that while not necessarily a top 20, offers fantastic training. They are rebuilding, but they will soon be considered elite.

3) I am an MS4, but have struggled like everyone else to make my list. If applying to one of the "elite programs," as well as other lesser known programs like my home school, are you thinking of writing two personal statements? Some of the things I want to accomplish in residency may not be possible at the lesser known programs. My personal statement may put some of these places off, and to ensure a spot at the end of the match, I am thinking of creating a toned down personal statement. Any thoughts?

I guess we will be seeing each other on the interview trail. Good luck to all.

Elliot

 

[Guile]

this is quite true...alot of the problem (as far as i've been told) has been faculty defecting to methodist in the split. i'm not sure that baylor would have been considered top 10-20 caliber even before the split.

Many have defected FROM Methodist as well. Joseph Coselli--arguably one of the top TAAA CT surgeons in the world--left Methodist for Texas Heart at St. Luke's. Plus the chief at Ben Taub is Kenneth Mattox. He writes the "TRAUMA" textbook with others from around the country. Baylor definitely has a place in the top 20. Excellent program.

And I think Mayo's program is excellent as well, IMHO, but good point about fellows getting a lot of the cases.