The Best Ophthalmology Programs - 2008

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Andrew_Doan

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In addition to the other polls and surveys published based on opinions of chairmen and program directors. One problem is that a few top programs produce a significant of current chairmen and program directors. Thus, let's have a "Best Ophthalmology Programs" poll based on the students, residents, and physicians.

We'll start by having people nominate programs on this thread. Please submit your nominations for:

1) Best Overall Residency Program

2) Best Research Program

3) Best Surgical Training

4) Best Clinical Training

I'll collect the nominations, then make polls for each category for people to vote.

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Instead of a single best, can we give our top 20 or 30. Or, we can list every program, and have a poll in which all of us can give each program a certain amount of stars, say 1-10. This way, we can see where even the lowest programs fall in. Even better than our opinions compiled for ranking would be something like this http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=410273
where we could simply collect all possibly relevant info without rank. Maybe we can do both. Have a sticky for our rankings, and another for program information. What do you guys think?
 
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Instead of a single best, can we give our top 20 or 30. Or, we can list every program, and have a poll in which all of us can give each program a certain amount of stars, say 1-10. This way, we can see where even the lowest programs fall in. Even better than our opinions compiled for ranking would be something like this http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=410273
where we could simply collect all possibly relevant info without rank. Maybe we can do both. Have a sticky for our rankings, and another for program information. What do you guys think?

Pick 1 or 2 programs to nominate for each category. I'll compile all the nominations and then we'll vote in a poll. This will save me the time of listing ALL the programs, and hopefully there will be 20 or so programs that will be identified as the leader after your nominations.
 
Pick 1 or 2 programs to nominate for each category. I'll compile all the nominations and then we'll vote in a poll. This will save me the time of listing ALL the programs, and hopefully there will be 20 or so programs that will be identified as the leader after your nominations.

Iowa? Is that an objective opinion? :D

I bet I can predict the future...what programs will end up on that list...Likely, the same reputation based ranking of programs on all the other rankings.

I think it would be more useful for applicants to develop a ranking for all the residency programs, perhaps dividing them into quartiles. Top quartile programs, 2nd quartile, 3rd and then 4th.

But I am not a moderator, just a regular member..
 
My nominations:

1) Best Overall Residency Program: Iowa

2) Best Research Program: Wilmer

3) Best Surgical Training: Jules Stein

4) Best Clinical Training: Wills Eye


My two cents:

Best overall: Bascom Palmer
Best Research: Wilmer
Best surgical training: Bascom Palmer
Best clinical training: Bascom Palmer
 
And no I didn't do my residency at Bascom Palmer.
 
1) Best Overall Residency Program: Bascom

2) Best Research Program: Wilmer, Cole Eye

3) Best Surgical Training: Oklahoma City, Bascom

4) Best Clinical Training: Wills Eye, Pitt Eye and Ear
 
I think it would be more useful for applicants to develop a ranking for all the residency programs, perhaps dividing them into quartiles. Top quartile programs, 2nd quartile, 3rd and then 4th.

I think this is a great thread. I'd have to agree with the above comment as well- I think if we look at the "X vs Y" questions on this thread, it isn't about Wilmer or BP or JSEI...it is the programs that are considered extremely strong but NOT a Wilmer or a BP or a JSEI...

I see it much like a rank list- you know which the top few are and you might know which the bottom few are, but the vast majority, that huge chunk of 100-ish programs where there is very little in the way of knowing exactly where they stack up against one another...

I also would love to see a category along the lines of "Most Resident Friendly Program". This is something I feel is personally important to many applicants (maybe the most important for me). I mean does 80%+ of this year's applicants who aren't in the running for interviews at the Bascom Palmers or MEEIs care about those programs (or even know enough to say anything about those programs?). I feel like most people know what programs are considered top 5 for research, or reputation, etc. I feel like most people would benefit from knowing a little more about the not-as-obvious programs and how they rank.

Just my two cents.
 
I agree with last post
My opinion is subjective since I'm currently a resident at Pitt Eye and Ear. But I consider this a strong program. Lots of positive changes are happening. One of the best strenghts of this program is the clinical and surgical volume with a balance between autonomy and supervision.
Lots of our graduates go to private practice as general ophthalmologist and for the past 3-5 years the graduates who decided to go to fellowship, get great fellowships.
Good look to this year applicants.!!!!
 
**FULL DISCLOSURE -- IM AN OPTOMETRIST**

I've never fully understood why people get so hung up on which programs are "the best." This seems to be a growing phenomenon and certainly, this isn't confined to ophthalmology, other medical specialties, medical schools, or even colleges. We even have to have rankings about the top 40 best guitar players of all time, or the top 50 child stars, or the top 100 reality TV moments. Why is there this unending obsession to rank everything? You hear all the time of people talking about which middle school or even which elementary school is "the best." What makes any one particular educational institution or program "the best?"

And when it really boils down to it, isn't the "best" program the one that is the best fit for YOU? (or your child?)

I always laugh when I hear politicians talking about how they have the "best wife in the world." Maybe, just maybe, they have the best wife in the world FOR THEM.
 
No bias here!

Best overall: Wilmer, Bascom Palmer
Best Research: Doheny, Wilmer
Best surgical training: Doheny, UC Davis
Best clinical training: Iowa, Doheny
 
There are very few people in the field of Ophthalmology with enough insight on residency programs (even residency directors) to make ANY sort of judgment as to which programs are the "best". Reputation means nothing. Unless you have access to facts (surgical numbers, complication rates after training, publications by residents, ability to have choice of fellowships) - this poll just perpetuates the same myths that are perpetuated by US News and (to a lesser extent) Ophthalmology Times. There are at least three programs on the OT list living off past reputation.

I agree with our optom friend.
 
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And when it really boils down to it, isn't the "best" program the one that is the best fit for YOU?

Absolutely! But as long as there are top ten lists, people will continue to read them and programs will strive to be a part of them. I always tell applicants to examine their goals when deciding on a program. If you want to be a comprehensive ophthalmologist that wants to build a practice on cataract surgery and LASIK, there are many programs in addition to the "top ten" that will prepare you well for that. If you want a career in academia, then choosing a program in the "top ten" will definitely help launch that. Those programs have the research talent and infrastructure to produce leaders and thinkers in the field. BTS writes, "reputation means nothing." There is some truth to that. On the flip side, ophthalmology is a very small world.
 
I agree that this thread is not very useful in reality. Who is really going to be able to objectively judge which program is "best," even if you break it down into categories? Hardly anyone has the information about each program necessary to do so. I haven't spent extensive time observing Wilmer residents, or Bascom residents, etc., and I doubt anyone else here has beyond isolated cases for the most part.

A list of programs with the best perceived reputations might be a little useful. A list of programs that people feel have good attributes might be useful. A list this general I feel is probably not. Better to have people comment on programs which they are familiar with, selling the good points. I think the post advocating the Pittsburgh program is a good example.
 
Keep the nominations coming. Then we all vote. If you all want a "resident friendly program" category, let's add it. Until the poll is posted and votes are in, it's only academic to discuss "what if...".

The other rankings are done this way but only program directors and chairmen vote. This time, you can have a say. So if you have a program that you like, then nominate it. Then I'll post another thread with all the programs for people to cast their vote as well as post why they voted that way. It may be useful because we'll tally the votes as well as have comments.

It's hard to say how useful or not useful this list will be without seeing the actual results. So nominate your favorite programs, and let the community vote and comment.
 
If you want a career in academia, then choosing a program in the "top ten" will definitely help launch that. Those programs have the research talent and infrastructure to produce leaders and thinkers in the field. BTS writes, "reputation means nothing." There is some truth to that. On the flip side, ophthalmology is a very small world.

I tend to disagree with this type of thinking. I heard this a lot when applying to medical schools, that if I wanted academics, I should go to a top 10-25 school. As if schools that are not in the top 10-25 are not "academic" and are not staffed by academic physicians who went to non-top 10-25 schools. IMHO, your training is what you make of it and going to a top program only makes things slightly easier. If you are a dud, but come from Columbia or UCSF, you are still a dud.

IMHO, ranking lists are not helpful. The information is interesting and can ben used to stroke your ego, but in the end, no one (who's normal) cares. But I will still look at the rankings. I am human and sometimes I cannot resist doing things that I know make no sense.
 
I also have my doubts about the utility of this, but my favorite programs (after hitting all the usual suspects) were: UCSF, Bascom, and Duke in no particular order. I would have been very happy to match at any of these places.

For me, an emphasis on resident happiness level was key. Residents at these programs seemed genuinely happy and get great clinical training that prepares them for landing either a great fellowship or for going into general ophthalmology. There are positive things about every program and negative things about every program as well. I think you need to choose a place that feels best to you and which fits your goals and strengths.

My subjective opinions:
Best Overall: Bascom, UCSF, Duke
Best Research: Scheie, Wilmer, UCSF, MEEI, WashU
Best Surgical Training: Bascom, Utah, UC Davis
Best Clinical Training: Bascom, UCSF, Wills
Most Resident Friendly: Michigan, Casey, UCSF, Duke
Best for Future Program Chairs: Wilmer
 
There are very few people in the field of Ophthalmology with enough insight on residency programs (even residency directors) to make ANY sort of judgment as to which programs are the "best". Reputation means nothing. Unless you have access to facts (surgical numbers, complication rates after training, publications by residents, ability to have choice of fellowships) - this poll just perpetuates the same myths that are perpetuated by US News and (to a lesser extent) Ophthalmology Times. There are at least three programs on the OT list living off past reputation.

I agree with our optom friend.

I agree with you and optom friend as well.
 
My subjective list:
Best Overall: Bascom, USC
Best Surgical Training: JSEI, Utah
Best Clinical Training: Bascom, JSEI
Best Research: Wilmer, WashU

May I suggest a new category?...
Diamond in the Rough: Cal pacific
 
My subjective list:
Best Overall: Duke, Michigan, Bascom, Iowa
Best Surgical Training: Oklahoma, Utah
Best Clinical Training: Bascom, Wills
Best Research: Wilmer, WashU, MEEI
Diamond in the Rough: Oklahoma...I was SHOCKED by this program when I interviewed there...it's AMAZING
 
I am curious on a national level which is considered a "better" program University of Colorado or Baylor in terms of getting a fellowship such as an ASOPS or retina spot. any thoughts?
 
In addition to the other polls and surveys published based on opinions of chairmen and program directors. One problem is that a few top programs produce a significant of current chairmen and program directors. Thus, let's have a "Best Ophthalmology Programs" poll based on the students, residents, and physicians.

We'll start by having people nominate programs on this thread. Please submit your nominations for:

1) Best Overall Residency Program

2) Best Research Program

3) Best Surgical Training

4) Best Clinical Training

I'll collect the nominations, then make polls for each category for people to vote.

How many years after Medical School?

What does it take to make $1,000,000 a year as an Ophthalmologist?

Is the training good? I am trying to convince people to study M.S. and not Pharmacy.
 
How many years after Medical School?

What does it take to make $1,000,000 a year as an Ophthalmologist?

Is the training good? I am trying to convince people to study M.S. and not Pharmacy.

if u want to make $1,000,000 a year...Ophthalmology isnt the field for you....that shouldnt be motivation to enter the field (though some refractive surgeons easily MAKE this much)...try neurosurgery or Mohs Surgery

training is good...but what would MS vs PharmD have to do with this convo?

4 years
 
How many years after Medical School?

What does it take to make $1,000,000 a year as an Ophthalmologist?

Is the training good? I am trying to convince people to study M.S. and not Pharmacy.

dumbest set of questions so far on SDN
 
Diamond in the Rough: Albany Medical College ... they cracked the top 10 in the Ophthalmology Times rankings this year, and I was amazed that they have such huge names like Simon (big time peds), Farber (president of ophthalmic path), and the president of the Cornea Society as well. Current seniors had already did a bunch of DSAEKs, vitxs, etc. (this was back in November) that people usually do in fellowships. I was extremely and pleasantly surprised.
 
We all know the "top 10" but what are some of ur thoughts on the Kresge program:

- research there seems to be pretty top notch - artificial vision with both retinal and cortical implants is one of their main research projects
- 7 position program with a good number of faculty
- VA hospital, Children's, and 2 to 3 other hospital in which residents rotate thru
- recognized faculty - chairman is president of ARVO (Dr. Abrams)
- great trauma training (heart of detroit)

who wants to chyme in?
 
We all know the "top 10" but what are some of ur thoughts on the Kresge program:

- research there seems to be pretty top notch - artificial vision with both retinal and cortical implants is one of their main research projects
- 7 position program with a good number of faculty
- VA hospital, Children's, and 2 to 3 other hospital in which residents rotate thru
- recognized faculty - chairman is president of ARVO (Dr. Abrams)
- great trauma training (heart of detroit)

who wants to chyme in?

I heard numerous times that Kresge is one of the BEST programs in the country...and if you base it simply on where people go after that, from what I hear 3 or 4 attendings at Doheny are Kresge trained, as well as one of the retina fellows

so good luck to you all this season!!!
 
My subjective list:
Best Overall: Duke, Michigan, Bascom, Iowa
Best Surgical Training: Oklahoma, Utah
Best Clinical Training: Bascom, Wills
Best Research: Wilmer, WashU, MEEI
Diamond in the Rough: Oklahoma...I was SHOCKED by this program when I interviewed there...it's AMAZING

From what i know--
Best overall: Wilmer, UCSF
Best Surgical Training: Utah, Davis, Oklahoma
Best Clinical Training: there are so many, UCSF, Scheie, and Wilmer are strong
Best Research: Scheie/Upenn, Wilmer
Diamond in the Rough: CPMC, UWashington
 
Here are the rankings (#1 to #90) according to the US News 2008. As you can see, not all hospitals listed have their own ophtho residency programs. Any thoughts?

1 Bascom Palmer Eye Institute at the University of Miami
2 Wilmer Eye Institute, Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore
3 Wills Eye Hospital, Philadelphia
4 Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary, Boston
5 Jules Stein Eye Institute, UCLA Medical Center, Los Angeles
6 University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics, Iowa City
7 Doheny Eye Institute, USC University Hospital, Los Angeles
8 Duke University Medical Center, Durham, N.C.
9 Emory University Hospital, Atlanta
10 University of California, San Francisco Medical Center
11 Cleveland Clinic
12 Barnes-Jewish Hospital/Washington University, St. Louis
13 Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn.
14 Cullen Eye Institute, Methodist Hospital, Houston
15 New York Eye and Ear Infirmary
16 W.K. Kellogg Eye Center, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
17 Manhattan Eye, Ear and Throat Hospital, New York
18 University of Illinois Medical Center at Chicago
19 University of Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics, Madison
20 Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia
21 Oregon Health and Science University, Portland
22 New York-Presbyterian Univ. Hosp. of Columbia and Cornell
23 University of Utah Health Care, Salt Lake City
24 University Hospital, Cincinnati
25 OU Medical Center, Oklahoma City
26 Tufts Medical Center, Boston
27 Memorial Hermann-Texas Medical Center, Houston
28 UPMC-University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
29 Regional Medical Center at Memphis
30 University of Alabama Hospital at Birmingham
31 Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville
32 University of Minnesota Medical Center, Fairview
33 Yale-New Haven Hospital, New Haven, Conn.
34 University of Chicago Medical Center
35 Beaumont Hospital, Royal Oak, Mich.
36 Harper University Hospital, Detroit
37 Mount Sinai Medical Center, New York
38 Stanford Hospital and Clinics, Stanford, Calif.
39 University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas
40 West Virginia University Hospitals, Morgantown, W.Va.
41 Children's Hospital of Wisconsin, Milwaukee
42 Ohio State University Hospital, Columbus
43 Rush University Medical Center, Chicago
44 Thomas Jefferson University Hospital, Philadelphia
45 Callahan Eye Foundation Hospital, Birmingham, Ala.
46 UAMS Medical Center, Little Rock, Ark.
47 University of California, Irvine Medical Center, Orange
48 Baptist Hospital, Nashville
49 California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco
50 Charleston Area Medical Center, Charleston, W.Va.
51 Children's Healthcare of Atlanta
52 Cook-Fort Worth Child Medical Center, Fort Worth
53 Erie County Medical Center, Buffalo
54 Georgetown University Hospital, Washington, D.C.
55 Grady Memorial Hospital, Atlanta
56 Harlem Hospital Center, New York
57 Huntington Memorial Hospital, Pasadena, Calif.
58 Loma Linda University Medical Center, Loma Linda, Calif.
59 Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center
60 Loyola University Hospital, Maywood, Ill.
61 NYU Medical Center, New York
62 St. Thomas Hospital, Nashville
63 Temple Community Hospital, Los Angeles
64 University of California, Davis Medical Center, Sacramento
65 University of Colorado Hospital, Denver
66 University of Mississippi Health Care, Jackson
67 Wake Forest Univ. Baptist Medical Center, Winston-Salem, N.C.
68 Washington Hospital Center, Washington, D.C.
69 White Memorial Medical Center, Los Angeles
70 Aurora BayCare Medical Center, Green Bay, Wis.
71 Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston
72 Bronx-Lebanon Hospital Center, New York
73 Good Samaritan Hospital, Cincinnati
74 LSU Medical Center-University Hospital, Shreveport, La.
75 Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston
76 Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York
77 Montefiore Medical Center, New York
78 Naval Medical Center, San Diego
79 St. Louis University Hospital
80 Truman Medical Center Hospital Hill, Kansas City, Mo.
81 University Health System, San Antonio
82 University Hospital, Newark, N.J.
83 University of Kansas Hospital, Kansas City
84 University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston
85 University of Virginia Medical Center, Charlottesville
86 Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center, Lebanon, N.H.
87 Albany Medical Center, Albany, N.Y.
88 Carondelet St. Joseph's Hospital, Tucson, Ariz.
89 St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital, Houston
90 Tucson Medical Center, Tucson, Ariz.
 
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refer to the thread about where current chairs trained to determine if you think wash u is a strong program or not. many good faculty are there, as well as plenty of cases and an incredibly strong retina program.

also, other posts on this thread have mentioned wash u.
 
where are you getting your information from?

according to a quick web search, wash u is ranked 12th by US news in 2008:

http://www.usnews.com/directories/hospitals/index_html/specialty+repopht

this forum is also littered with praise for their program. and, all the people I've spoken have said unequivocally that it is one of the top programs in the country.

Has that changed recently? Does anyone have credible knowledge otherwise?
 
that has not changed recently. there has been some faculty turnover in the last year, but good faculty have replaced those who have left. their uveitis MD left on good terms to be chair at UWashington, so that may be their weakness. on the other hand, one of the retina attdgs who took over the uveitis practice is the son of a famous uveitis MD at USC.
 
Another notable that list does not contain is Michigan, which is always ranked in the top 10 OT, and top 20 US news. Also curious where this list was found....
 
I agree... Michigan is obviously missing.

In reference to the Ophthalmology Times rankings, another quick search places Wash U as the #9 program overall, the #10 program for clinical care, and the #9 program for research in 2007. I believe that is the most recent ranking by OT. I searched 2006, 05, 04, 03, 02... I think it is on all lists. Heres a website with the lists from 07:

http://www.glaucoma.org/treating/ophthalmology_t.php

This corn dog list (and post) is highly dubious. The first 10 are obviously great programs. The rest does not make much sense.
 
This corn dog list (and post) is highly dubious. The first 10 are obviously great programs. The rest does not make much sense.

Alright. Let me clarify some things here.

First, the comment about Wash U not being in top 10 for the past 5 years was from a post by xaelia (now a resident) whose credibility had not been in doubt (link below). It was just that the post was made 2 years ago in 11/06. Obviously things have changed a little since then. :rolleyes:

Link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=470595&page=2

Second, about the US news ranking... you are right. I made a small error on my spreadsheet. That's all. I corrected the list, and hopefully, it should be error-free now. :D
 
wash u is not a program that has made the top 10 list in just the last two years. its been a strong program for a while, and has trained many of the academicians at other schools.
 
your post re wash u not being in the top ten for the last 2 years is incorrect. Again, see the list for 2007 (link posted above). It is in the top ten for all three categories. I have not seen the list for 2008.

I believe xaelia's post is inaccurate as well. It was on the list in 2006, 2005, etc.
 
Looking back at the OT rankings from 2003-2007, I must agree that WashU is a top program. It has been in the top 10 best overall program every year except for 2003. However, I did notice that WashU had not placed in top 10 in best residency ranking over the past 5 years. I'm guessing that's what xaelia was referring to. Anyone know why that may be?
 
refer to the thread about where current chairs trained to determine if you think wash u is a strong program or not. many good faculty are there, as well as plenty of cases and an incredibly strong retina program.

also, other posts on this thread have mentioned wash u.



Listed 12th, as Barnes-Jewish/Wash U.
 
I agree... Michigan is obviously missing.

In reference to the Ophthalmology Times rankings, another quick search places Wash U as the #9 program overall, the #10 program for clinical care, and the #9 program for research in 2007. I believe that is the most recent ranking by OT. I searched 2006, 05, 04, 03, 02... I think it is on all lists. Heres a website with the lists from 07:

http://www.glaucoma.org/treating/ophthalmology_t.php

This corn dog list (and post) is highly dubious. The first 10 are obviously great programs. The rest does not make much sense.

Listed 16th, as Kellogg.
 
I think one thing about the US news rankings is that (as i recall) they are written more so from the prespective of the best hospitals/places for eye care in the country if you are a patient--which is a litle different from who gives good teaching, surgical volume, etc for residents. you could even argue those places with the greatest resident autonomy and what not might be hindered in that ranking.
 
Corn dog- what do you mean by "top ten residency programs"? Could u provide a link?

If anyone on this forum could provide some first hand knowledge about wash u, that would be helpful. May help to resolve some confusion
 
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