surgeon's lifestyle, good or bad? share the truth...

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docmemi

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so what is the truth? how bad is a surgeon's lifestyle? can you still have a family? can you spend time with your family? can you have a life outside the OR??

im tired of ignorant people out there pretending they know that surgeons have a bad life, especially compared to a general practitioner. so im here to find out the TRUTH from you!! looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks.

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docmemi said:
so what is the truth? how bad is a surgeon's lifestyle? can you still have a family? can you spend time with your family? can you have a life outside the OR??

im tired of ignorant people out there pretending they know that surgeons have a bad life, especially compared to a general practitioner. so im here to find out the TRUTH from you!! looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks.


This subject has been discussed to great lengths several times in the past. Please check the archives to see if your questions are answered there.
 
Hi there,
How bad is any lifestyle when you are doing what you love? You can't be happy in Dermatology, Internal Medicine or Surgery if you hate your life and what you do. Surgery can be practiced in any manner that you choose. Some of my professors practice surgery 50% of the time and do research 50% of the time with a great lifestyle. You have to choose how you want to practice and practice what you love.

I hated everything about Internal Medicine in medical school. I couldn't stand the long hours of standing around in rounds and the pages of progress notes. I hated the lack of procedures (though I did like doing endoscopies on GI rotation) and the endless conferences. My Internal Medicine colleague felt that surgery was too malignant with long hours in the OR and endless trauma patients.

I love operating and the intense concentration required to get the case done. I love the proactive mindset of the surgeon and the speed with which we round in the early am and get into the OR. I love handling the traumas and the ability to handle injured patients that others shy away from. I love the fact that I can open a chest and crossclamp an aorta while others stand around in amazement. It is just a matter of my style and my personality.

Most of my colleagues and attendings have families and enjoy a great lifestyle. I don't know of any of their kids that are incarcerated. Most have not gone through divorce and most are very guarded of their time off and with their families. You can have a family and gone is the day where you have to exclude every part of your life to do surgery.

Residency is very time consuming and I don't have long hours of time to party and hang out with friends like my classmates who went to business school or into law. My days start at 0545h and end somewhere around 1800h. My rounds are done by the time most of my Internal Medicine colleagues are just arriving at the hospital. Most of my day is spent in the OR or covering the Surgical Trauma ICU. Every year of residency has new experiences and new challenges. I am certain that practice will be the same.

In some states, there is a malpractice crisis (Ohio, West Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Wyoming) just to name a few. This is affecting how surgeons practice and can lead to huge problems with job satisfaction among surgeons and other high risk specialties. Problems with reimbursement can also be problematic for some surgeons too.

In spite of the above, I would rather spend 16 hours doing surgery then 1 hour doing something that I don't like. Dermatology may have short hours; no emergency call and lots of money but I just can't get excited about acne or warts and moles. I believe that my lifestyle would suffer far more if I chose a specialty that I hated just because the hours are shorter. In the end, you have to weigh what you want and like.

Good luck!
njbmd :)
 
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Speaking as a surgery resident:

You *can* have a family/ outside life though your time may be unpredictable and limited. When I started residency, there was a period where we worked in excess of 120 hours, and honestly, during that time, my life WAS the hospital.

Now, the hour limitations are more strictly enforced, for the better and worse. I can usually plan at least a night out per week with friends and still have time to read. It is still pretty difficult to take a weekend trip in that months may go by without having a 2 day stretch off. At home pager call can be hit or miss; sometimes, I rarely go in, other times, I spend the night at the hospital.

Surgery isn't easy though the hours alone are not impossible to handle. Sometimes, I very seriously doubted whether it was worth it- lawsuits, hostile staff/patients, scut, etc, etc can jade you. On the other hand, I'm beginning to see that as a surgeon you often are the one that can really fix things and handle whatever comes your way. I like being able to at least provide the chance to fix a problem and I absolutely love to teach technical skills.

The lifestyle is not always predictable but there is time away from the hospital; just make sure that if you want to be with someone that they are okay with spending some nights alone, flexible plans, and bringing the pager along on your nights out. Luckily, some people out there are willing to tolerate it- just make sure that YOU are one of them.
 
Foxxy Cleopatra said:
Speaking as a surgery resident:

The lifestyle is not always predictable but there is time away from the hospital; just make sure that if you want to be with someone that they are okay with spending some nights alone, flexible plans, and bringing the pager along on your nights out. Luckily, some people out there are willing to tolerate it- just make sure that YOU are one of them.

Foxxy:
Did you find it hard to meet someone who could handle your crazy schedule? Just wondering because a lot of people I meet get freaked out when they find out what a surgeon's hours really are.
 
Doc Ivy,

Luckily, there are some guys out there that are okay with a crazy schedule. I date on and off; most guys have been pretty reasonable about it, though a few have seemed put off by the pager. Most people I meet are through the hospital, but that's probably due to the fact that I started residency in a new town and didn't know anyone outside when I moved here.

Funny thing was one of the most understanding (regarding my schedule) was a male nurse. Though it was no big romance, he ended up being a nice friend- it was a lot like an episode of Scrubs. :)


Doc Ivy said:
Foxxy:
Did you find it hard to meet someone who could handle your crazy schedule? Just wondering because a lot of people I meet get freaked out when they find out what a surgeon's hours really are.
 
Foxxy Cleopatra said:
Doc Ivy,

Luckily, there are some guys out there that are okay with a crazy schedule. I date on and off; most guys have been pretty reasonable about it, though a few have seemed put off by the pager. Most people I meet are through the hospital, but that's probably due to the fact that I started residency in a new town and didn't know anyone outside when I moved here.

Funny thing was one of the most understanding (regarding my schedule) was a male nurse. Though it was no big romance, he ended up being a nice friend- it was a lot like an episode of Scrubs. :)


Thanks for the reply, makes me want to lock down a relationship before PGY1, otherwise things might get difficult. Take care.
 
Make sure to emphasize how important having a great social life is to you when you interview for a GS residency. Also throw in that although it's great that they've finally brought in the 80 hour rule, you'll be lobbying to the RRC to decrease this even further and make surgery residency something along the lines of a 9-5 thing you can do around your personal life. Oh yeah, drop a couple of hints that you're not really a morning person and hate to be interrupted in the middle of your sleep to take care of patients.
 
As usual, I agree with Foxxy. Our lives are definitely better than before the 80 hour work week. I usually can arrange a night per week that I can go out with my family. I definitely could not do that before and my wife has really noticed and appreciated the changes. I'm not a big fan of the 80 hour work week for training purposes but for my social life, it's pretty golden.

That being said, the surgical lifestyle is a stark contrast from many of the medical specialties. As a resident, I guess I'm pretty oblivious to this really. I didn't really realize it until I was talking to my FP and Peds buddies. As surgeons, you are likely committed to being at the hospital at 0700 (as an attending) for the majority of your life. You get called in at night for cases pretty often. You don't have "hospitalists" in house to do the cases when they come in. You are at the mercy of the O.R. and anesthesia at times (i.e. weekends/holidays).

But as "they" say, you can make you life what you want it depending on how busy/wealthy you want to be. Some FPs can work themselves into the ground.

Yes you can have a life, family, and life outside of the O.R. (just a little more difficult in residency)
 
Doc Ivy said:
Foxxy:
Did you find it hard to meet someone who could handle your crazy schedule? Just wondering because a lot of people I meet get freaked out when they find out what a surgeon's hours really are.

Not that you asked me, I found it relatively easy as did some of my colleagues - of course, of the female surgery residents I know, one is dating a Surgery fellow (me - we met when I was an intern and he a 3rd year at another program), another is dating an attending at another hospital, one is dating another resident, one a male nurse and a few others brought their partners with them. One just got engaged to a ski instructor she met on vacation!

So...you can see, you can meet people, it just takes special effort to meet someone outside of the hospital, unless you have no objections to dating/marrying someone in the medical field - frankly, it can make for understanding your hours easier, IMHO.
 
Doc Ivy said:
Thanks for the reply, makes me want to lock down a relationship before PGY1, otherwise things might get difficult. Take care.

Hey babe, I'm down. Call me or something. Or not. Whatever. Uh, you know--- what works best for you. It's not like, you know, I...uhhhhhhhhhhh... care or something like that. You do whatever yous wants. I'm one of those new-age, you know, uh, tolerant and romantic yet lumberjack as hell dudes. I understand. :cool:
 
i have family members who dont know any surgeons, but they somehow think they know that surgeons have bad lifestyles. for example, being called in to the hospital, risk of surgery/opening patients up, strenght, focus, etc. that may be true, but i know a ton of other docs, like some cardiologists, that get called in at night, etc.

im just at a point where i have to choose a surgeon mentor or a medicine mentor. since im limited by time (i dont want other med students to take all the good mentors), i dont know what to do. i dont know any surgeons personally to know how their lifestyle really is. ukh.

anymore input would be great. thanks for your insight.
 
My bad Kim, I should have known you'd have some useful input on this subject. I guess I'm a little scared to put off the relationship thing until residency, because I'm pretty set on surgery (at least for now) and I know that the hours are gonna kill my social life. But I also don't have any problems dating a colleague, so maybe that's the way it'll have to be. Thanks for the advice.
Oh, and Mediculous I Pm'ed you ;)

Kimberli Cox said:
Not that you asked me, I found it relatively easy as did some of my colleagues - of course, of the female surgery residents I know, one is dating a Surgery fellow (me - we met when I was an intern and he a 3rd year at another program), another is dating an attending at another hospital, one is dating another resident, one a male nurse and a few others brought their partners with them. One just got engaged to a ski instructor she met on vacation!

So...you can see, you can meet people, it just takes special effort to meet someone outside of the hospital, unless you have no objections to dating/marrying someone in the medical field - frankly, it can make for understanding your hours easier, IMHO.
 
I got married long before I started surgery residency to a guy with a non-medical job and thankfully a social life and hobbies of his own that keep him busy when I am not around. Yes, it's tough sometimes, but we make it work and try to make quality time together - those days off and getting home early post-call help a lot with this, although often I feel I should use that time to study instead of relaxing and having fun. And, of course, I am delaying starting a family until after residency. You don't have to make this choice, but I just can't see how I'd be able to be home enough - maybe this is because my program has almost all in-house call (meaning you stay there all day and night and till noon the next day on call avg of 1-2 nights/week), but many programs have home call more often and maybe that makes it more of a possibility to fit in family.

For after residency, I hope to be able to have a more controllable schedule even if this means making less money. But for now I don't mind the hours most of the time because I really do enjoy learning surgery. I'll always stay late to do a case (within the 80 hour limit of course) because it's just kinda fun to do surgery. Now, when you're staying late to just do a bunch of work...okay that gets to be not so fun, but for those times you do get to operate, all the BS kinda seems worth it for the privilege of getting to do surgery.

I guess you gotta love surgery enough to be willing to sacrifice some of your personal life for it. Even with 80 hour rules it's still not a "normal" lifestyle by any stretch, and still harder than any other residency in my opinion. But you can have some sort of social life if you work at it. The work hard/play hard type of people are the kind who make happy surgeons.
 
bump.

surgeons lifestyle compared to an internal medicine subspecialist (oncology, pulm, cardiology, GI, geriatrics) or family practitioner??????????
 
I'm a pgy-2 gs resident. We stick closely to the 80 hour RRC mandate. We have a computerized log system that is reviewed frequently. We get 2 full weekends off per month. Of the two call weekends, one is from Sat AM to Sun AM, and the other w/e call is Sun all day. One overnight call per month (on average). Not bad at all.

Caveat: We do have a couple of months of night float... up all night sleep all day. Say goodbye to daylight for 2 months, and have fun cleaning up all the crap that gets signed out to you.
 
Celiac Plexus said:
I'm a pgy-2 gs resident. We stick closely to the 80 hour RRC mandate. We have a computerized log system that is reviewed frequently. We get 2 full weekends off per month. Of the two call weekends, one is from Sat AM to Sun AM, and the other w/e call is Sun all day. One overnight call per month (on average). Not bad at all.

Caveat: We do have a couple of months of night float... up all night sleep all day. Say goodbye to daylight for 2 months, and have fun cleaning up all the crap that gets signed out to you.

Overall do you think the night float system helps (the 2 months of all night are worth it) or would you rather have more o/n call and no night float? seems like most programs don't have night float...
 
Celiac Plexus said:
I'm a pgy-2 gs resident. We stick closely to the 80 hour RRC mandate. We have a computerized log system that is reviewed frequently. We get 2 full weekends off per month. Of the two call weekends, one is from Sat AM to Sun AM, and the other w/e call is Sun all day. One overnight call per month (on average). Not bad at all.

Caveat: We do have a couple of months of night float... up all night sleep all day. Say goodbye to daylight for 2 months, and have fun cleaning up all the crap that gets signed out to you.

where are you located?
 
i'm a non-medical person who has been with a soon-to-begin surgical resident (matching in march) for almost a year and a half.

i love her to death, and i think that things are going well with us in terms of time, etc, and currently we live in different states, separated by about 10 hours of driving.

i worry about her residency and how it will impact our lives quite a bit. surgery types tend to be very reassuring and insist that the lifestyle is good or at least doable. my thought on that is that this opinion comes from the segment of the population that not only was drawn to medicine but also the smaller subset that actually loves surgery, which has certain personality characteristics that tend to be common among many surgeons (hard-working to an extreme, type A personality, willing to sacrifice most personal life stuff for the "privilege" to do surgery), so their subjective view that surgery provides an adequate lifestyle must be taken with a grain of salt. satisfaction rates for general surgeons are lower than those for IM docs, but those in most surgical subspecialties report some of the highest job satisfaction rates of all medical careers. across the board, though, both medicine and surgery report not having enough time/wishing they had more personal/family time.

for my situation, i try to keep my anxiety at bay--i'll cross the bridge when i come to it. i trust that she is honest when she tells me without prompting or any show of concern on my part that she will switch specialties if she starts with surgery and it doesn't allow her the family life she wants. she and i have met surgeons who maintain the kind of family life involvement that we both want, though they are uber-rare, so it IS possible, though invariably those folks note that it is tough as hell. so we plan on giving it a shot, and i plan on staying with her unless i truly feel that she has abandoned her expressed priorities in her life in favor of becoming a surgery robot.

on a final note, i'm not some stay-at-home do-nothing who has no social life--i have about 10 amazingly-close friends, plus a bunch of others with whom i enjoy spending time, i work full-time at a law firm, and am in my final year of law school. at the same time, she can't guarantee that she'll match in michigan where i live, nor do i expect that she would try for that when so many amazing opportunities await her elsewhere. because of this, which potentially entails me needing to study for a state bar exam for which my education has NOT prepared me, and leaving my home state and family and friends just as my sister and two close friends are having/have had their first children, all to support her career, i expect that her priorities will include our future family as number one. sure, the pager comes first, duh, but a line must be drawn at some point between the "normal" lifestyle and the superman complex (where you feel like you should always be at work rather than clark kent, since when you take time off bad things happen to people and you aren't helping them). i hope we can pull it off...

i think it takes a person with a strong will, clear and strong priorities that are set at a point where the person is mature enough, and an amazing ability to strike a balance in your personal and medical life, and then it takes meeting another person with similar character. unfortunately my woman met me instead, so she gets a guy who gets needy and gets anxiety about things from time-to-time, but so far things have been good.

good luck to you in your chosen path.

--jason
 
i dont mean to be tough about this, but working 80 hours a week
is hard. have you ever done it? when you had to be there?
maybe you had a job and studied when you got home - but that doesnt
count because you had some control over when you could take a break
to see a movie or have a beer or just stop and do extra the next day.

80 hours in a week is tiring and it drains the humanity out of you.
on the other hand 80 in a week can be great, you can achieve so
much and feel great about what you did, but it can kill you too.
if i had the choice, i would not want to work more than 50 hours.
its the only way to have a quality life.

80 hours a week, two weeks holiday a year, one full weekend off
a month, and when youre free youre supposed to study?
there's nothing positive or normal or human about that.
you got to love the work to the exclusion of all else im afraid.

she gets home after 80 and wants to sleep or read and then sleep.
sure she wants to be with you and hang out and do stuff, but she'll
be tired, angry and frustrated. you miss her you havent seen her for
a week and want to do stuff and you'll have different agendas and
expectations and that is bad news.

i hope it works for you, but its gonna be stacked up against you
 
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