Student Loan Crisis Picking Up Steam

[medicinesux]

With the economy in the toilet and unemployment on the uptick again last month, how on God's green earth are millions of student loan borrowers keeping up with their monthly payments? The answer is they are NOT. Check out the horror stories on this student loan debt forum that I came across-

http://www.debtconsolidationcare.com/student-discussion/index.html

Grab some popcorn and pull up a chair and witness first hand the prologue to our country's next major financial fiasco.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[medicinesux]

Hi,

My husband and I are about to graduate from a Masters program. Our combined private student loan debt is $300,000! We are sooo scared because there is no way we will be able to pay $7,000 a month. Our debt is higher than the average student because we put ourselves through school We had no grants, no money saved, no nothing. Also, every year of studies we were raising two boys.

Sallie Mae doesn't want to tell me our options because we are not in repayment yet. We are in our 6 month grace period. I need to know, however, what are our options so we can prepare for rough times. We need to figure out how we will get by and only use basic necessities. What is worse, is that we are poorer than when we started school. At least we had 0$ and not -300,000$. Because our combined income will be 70,000$ we don't even qualify for government health care. I am not sure what is the monthly payment with the different programs.

What will we do? There is no way we can pay, we don't make 7,000$ a month. Also, I am willing to pay with 50% or even 70% of our income as long as we have food, shelter, and medical care.

Please give me any advise you can think of.

Karla

 

[medicinesux]

"My husband went to Chiropractic school and acquired a huge amount in student loans...approx $270,000. He has been out of school for almost 4 years now and has been unsuccessful at passing his National Boards. His loans are now coming into repayment and he is by far making the money of a Chiropractor to pay the loans. Some are federal loans, which I know HE HAS TO PAY, but some are private loans. Does anyone know what he can do so he can postpone re-payments? I know he has deferred then as long as he can...and he tried to file for forbearance, but since his Father is a co-signer on the loans, they were not approved. PLEASE HELP US!!!!!" Thanks.

 

[chocomorsel]

Hi,

My husband and I are about to graduate from a Masters program. Our combined private student loan debt is $300,000! We are sooo scared because there is no way we will be able to pay $7,000 a month. Our debt is higher than the average student because we put ourselves through school We had no grants, no money saved, no nothing. Also, every year of studies we were raising two boys.

Sallie Mae doesn't want to tell me our options because we are not in repayment yet. We are in our 6 month grace period. I need to know, however, what are our options so we can prepare for rough times. We need to figure out how we will get by and only use basic necessities. What is worse, is that we are poorer than when we started school. At least we had 0$ and not -300,000$. Because our combined income will be 70,000$ we don't even qualify for government health care. I am not sure what is the monthly payment with the different programs.

What will we do? There is no way we can pay, we don't make 7,000$ a month. Also, I am willing to pay with 50% or even 70% of our income as long as we have food, shelter, and medical care.

Please give me any advise you can think of.

Karla

Seriously? And that is why you go to public school; work part time, school part time if need be!!! Gotta make smarter choices. If you know that you are not going to be in a career that earns at least close to a 6 figure income (I'm talking 80k and above), don't put yourself in a 6 figure debt situation. Come on, gotta plan ahead you know. Too late now honey. Good luck with that.

 

[chocomorsel]

Ok medicine sux,
By reading some of these posts I have to admit. There are some SERIOUSLY IRRESPONSIBLE people out there. I mean many of these people wait to be contacted by collection agencies before they start their whining and crying. Come on, seriously. When you sign that promissory note,YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR REPAYMENT SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE. This isn't a free lunch. There are penalties involved and people sign away like nothing. But when trouble arises, instead of contacting their lenders, they just sit on it and hope it will go away. Come on people, take some frigging responsibility. We all know that you should communicate with your lender before **** hits the fan so that they can try and work with you before turning you in to a collections agency. I know, I've been turned in for smaller stuff and have paid what I owed. People need to stop making excuses and take some damn responsibilities. That's what is wrong with America these day. I'm sure there are legit complaints out there, but for the most part, these people are trying to scam their lenders and crying mama when their dues are due. Get real. I don't feel sorry for them. Communicate with your lender is the message here.

As for the chiropractor who spent 270k for his education. Now that was just stupid on his part. I mean, did he seriously think he was going to be seeing a great return on his investment. Research people, before you drop a crapload of money on not so lucrative career paths.

 

[ozzie20]

Ok medicine sux,
By reading some of these posts I have to admit. There are some SERIOUSLY IRRESPONSIBLE people out there. I mean many of these people wait to be contacted by collection agencies before they start their whining and crying. Come on, seriously. When you sign that promissory note,YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR REPAYMENT SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE. This isn't a free lunch. There are penalties involved and people sign away like nothing. But when trouble arises, instead of contacting their lenders, they just sit on it and hope it will go away. Come on people, take some frigging responsibility. We all know that you should communicate with your lender before **** hits the fan so that they can try and work with you before turning you in to a collections agency. I know, I've been turned in for smaller stuff and have paid what I owed. People need to stop making excuses and take some damn responsibilities. That's what is wrong with America these day. I'm sure there are legit complaints out there, but for the most part, these people are trying to scam their lenders and crying mama when their dues are due. Get real. I don't feel sorry for them. Communicate with your lender is the message here.

As for the chiropractor who spent 270k for his education. Now that was just stupid on his part. I mean, did he seriously think he was going to be seeing a great return on his investment. Research people, before you drop a crapload of money on not so lucrative career paths.

Interesting points, these are similar points that were brought up during the mortgage lending fiasco that brought this whole country down.

True, these people probably didn't have the proper judgment in taking on these loans, and now cannot repay them. The problem is, they did. They took on the loans, and there are a LOT of people that did the same, some responsible, some not. Its a bubble, and it will burst at some point, leaving a lotta people in the dust. Dumb people taking the loans, or sharks handing out the loans, its a problem that is occurring.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Ugh, is anybody else a little tired of medicinesux's endless negativity. Not that I don't appreciate some ranting now and again, but it's a little worrisome to have hating medicine be essentially the whole essence of your life.

 

[medicinesux]

Ugh, is anybody else a little tired of medicinesux's endless negativity. Not that I don't appreciate some ranting now and again, but it's a little worrisome to have hating medicine be essentially the whole essence of your life.

Ignoring all the problems in medicine is like living in a house infected with termites and not calling the exterminator. You can hope and pretend all you want, but one day your house will come crashing down if you don't address the problem. I am sorry but there is nothing rosy and cute about the worsening student loan crisis. If the brakes are not applied to this crisis, doctors in the near future will find themselves in the same position as trade school or law school graduates coming out with 150K in debt and pathetic pay.

Sure this negative talk is not pleasant. But you know what is going to even be more unpleasant ==>
Having newly minted docs in the not so distant future paying off 1 million dollars over 30 years (at 7% interest on a 400K balance upon graduation) while PAINFULLY making 150K a year.

 

[dragonfly99]

For the person in 300,000 of debt, the first thing I would try to do is see if you can get an agreement to stretch out your payments over a longer time, like 20-30 years, instead of a 10 year repayment plan, if you can. It's still going to be really ugly, though. I don't know if these options are still available, but when I graduated from medical school that is what we all did...consolidated the loans, changed from 10 year to 30 year repayment plan. That way my payments on 130k of debt were $540/month instead of $1300...300k is a crapload of debt, though. At that level of debt, I'd be looking at joining the military of some sort of program to work in an underserved area (can your husband do that with chiropractic?). Maybe he could work for the VA...I don't know for certain if they employ any chiropractors, but if they do then there might be loan repayment options available,and you would get health care and other benefits.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Ignoring all the problems in medicine is like living in a house infected with termites and not calling the exterminator. You can hope and pretend all you want, but one day your house will come crashing down if you don't address the problem. I am sorry but there is nothing rosy and cute about the worsening student loan crisis. If the brakes are not applied to this crisis, doctors in the near future will find themselves in the same position as trade school or law school graduates coming out with 150K in debt and pathetic pay.

Sure this negative talk is not pleasant. But you know what is going to even be more unpleasant ==>
Having newly minted docs in the not so distant future paying off 1 million dollars over 30 years (at 7% interest on a 400K balance upon graduation) while PAINFULLY making 150K a year.

Ignoring all the problems in medicine and focusing on all the problems in medicine are essentially the same thing. Either way, you're missing out on everything that's happening in the middle or on the other side. I just can't see how it's healthy for you to focus on how much medicine "sux" all the time. In all the time you spend dwelling, maybe you could be thinking about ways to get out of it. Also, if you're generally unhappy with your life, I'm betting medicine isn't the sole cause.

 

[medicinesux]

Ignoring all the problems in medicine and focusing on all the problems in medicine are essentially the same thing.

What are you talking about??? Ignoring problems and dealing with them are equivalent? I can't even refute this because this makes no sense whatsoever!

Your psychoanalysis of medicinesux couldn't be further from the truth. I have addressed such erroneous accusations before: http://medicinesux.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/88/
And yes I am feverishly working on my master plan to exit medicine:
http://medicinesux.wordpress.com/2009/08/05/151/

 

[medicinesux]

For the person in 300,000 of debt, the first thing I would try to do is see if you can get an agreement to stretch out your payments over a longer time, like 20-30 years, instead of a 10 year repayment plan, if you can. It's still going to be really ugly, though. I don't know if these options are still available, but when I graduated from medical school that is what we all did...consolidated the loans, changed from 10 year to 30 year repayment plan. That way my payments on 130k of debt were $540/month instead of $1300...300k is a crapload of debt, though. At that level of debt, I'd be looking at joining the military of some sort of program to work in an underserved area (can your husband do that with chiropractic?). Maybe he could work for the VA...I don't know for certain if they employ any chiropractors, but if they do then there might be loan repayment options available,and you would get health care and other benefits.

Come to think of it, the woman with 300k in PRIVATE LOANS is ****ED BIG TIME. With a private loan that huge, chances are she will not be able to make monthly payments for long and with just one missed payment some private loans can go into immediate default and can never be rehabbed (unlike federal loans). This will tack on an additional 15-25% in fees driving her loan debt up into the high 300's. Then she will be sued and have her wages garnished for life (most states permit this) and possibly have her checking accounts frozen or cleaned out and liens put on any property. Meanwhile her debt will climb higher and higher as the interest rates on these loans have no caps. This woman will be in debt for the rest of her life with no hope of ever having a positive net worth unless she wins the lottery. She will have to live paycheck to paycheck not ever owning her own home or having any big assets like a car. Criminals who serve jail time for heinous crimes have a better outlook than this. At least after they paid their dues to society, they can come out and start their lives anew. This woman is essentially serving a life sentence for taking out those loans. The banking industry in America is truly worse than the mob.

 

[pgg]

medicinesux -

Why don't you change your name to bankingsux and spend all your time on personal finance forums? Surely they need your insight at least as much as we do.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

medicinesux -

Why don't you change your name to bankingsux and spend all your time on personal finance forums? Surely they need your insight at least as much as we do.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

What are you talking about??? Ignoring problems and dealing with them are equivalent? I can't even refute this because this makes no sense whatsoever!



Your psychoanalysis of medicinesux couldn't be further from the truth. I have addressed such erroneous accusations before: http://medicinesux.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/88/
And yes I am feverishly working on my master plan to exit medicine:
http://medicinesux.wordpress.com/2009/08/05/151/

I'm sorry but I don't really see much working on solutions in your posts here on SDN. And yes, your view is one-sided. It's about as enlightened as the premeds who think medicine is the best thing ever. Amazingly enough, there are actually some physicians out there who are happy in their careers and would indeed pick medicine again if given a choice.

 

[JPR22]

I think part of the problem, med students have brought on themselvers. Tuition has generally gone up significantly in recent years, and no one really complained about it. If every tuition increase was met with one or more of the executive committee members having an accident then things may have been different.

 

[medicinesux]

medicinesux -

Why don't you change your name to bankingsux and spend all your time on personal finance forums? Surely they need your insight at least as much as we do.

For the time being, I'd rather not spread myself too thin

I'm sorry but I don't really see much working on solutions in your posts here on SDN. And yes, your view is one-sided. It's about as enlightened as the premeds who think medicine is the best thing ever. Amazingly enough, there are actually some physicians out there who are happy in their careers and would indeed pick medicine again if given a choice.

There are so many problems going down in American medicine that I can't possibly come up with solutions for all of them. Otherwise, I would be on this site 24/7. Hopefully by raising issues, more people will become enlightened and some progress can be made. And you are right, there are physicians who love their careers. But they are a minority from my experience- 25% dislike, 50% tolerate, 25% claim they "love" their careers but only about 5% really mean it (the other 20% would say their **** don't stink). The passion of these 5% radiates and they don't have to say it since it is so apparent to everyone in their presence. Unfortunately, I am not in this 5%, but then again most people in medicine aren't.

 

[filter07]

Ugh, is anybody else a little tired of medicinesux's endless negativity. Not that I don't appreciate some ranting now and again, but it's a little worrisome to have hating medicine be essentially the whole essence of your life.

No, I like them.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I think part of the problem here is that medicinesux has several opinions / issues / concerns that have gotten mixed up on this thread.

The first is that medicine is a miserable career due to multiple issues. I am not going to refute that here. I happen to disagree, but I can certainly understand why he/she feels that way.

The second is the concern over another financial crisis regarding educational loans. This is a huge problem, as demonstrated by the links he/she has provided, and has basically the same roots as the housing crisis:

1. Starting in the past, the number of people going to college increased dramatically. New colleges opened to drive this engine. It became "common knowledge" that if you went to college that you could get a better job. Hence, if everyone goes to college, everyone gets a better job. This is crazy.

2. Colleges charge crazy tuition, but they get paid by banks / the feds and are happy.

3. Banks have educational loans that seem rock solid -- they are non dischargeable in bankruptcy.

4. Students get squeezed in the middle. They simply sign their prom notes and it seems all like funny money. It's hard to understand how much it will really all cost. Chances are, they are shown some statement like: $100K @ 7% over 10 years = $1200 per month. They don't really realize what that means, and assume that once they have a college diploma they will of course get some fantastic job that will make tons of money.

5. Students graduate, find they can't get jobs or that they don't pay well, have these huge loans, and wonder what went wrong. They blame the people who wrote the loans for being misleading. The people who wrote the loans blame the students, for getting themselves in too much debt.

6. As far as I know, educational loans have not been securitized. If so, then we have a mirror of the housing market issues.

Of note, this really is not much of a problem for medical students, or really is a different problem. The vast majority of medical students (at least those trained in the US) will graduate and go on to practice. Even those in the lowest paying fields can afford debt of $100K, and even $300K is managable -- except that you can't afford $300K debt payments on your loans and a mortgage / "comfortable lifestyle". So, the problem is not affording the loan, it's affording the loan and the rest of the lifestyle that most physicians expect.

The major problem is numeracy. Most people, even smart ones (like physicians), often have trouble understanding what these debt payments mean in the future.

So, there is going to be some sort of educational loan crisis, but not for most medical school loans. And this is not a problem with medicine specifically (although I agree that the high cost of medical school is a problem, but it's inherently different than the educational loan problem).

 

[docdaname]

I'm sorry but I don't really see much working on solutions in your posts here on SDN. And yes, your view is one-sided. It's about as enlightened as the premeds who think medicine is the best thing ever. Amazingly enough, there are actually some physicians out there who are happy in their careers and would indeed pick medicine again if given a choice.

agree with above! im over 200 grand in debt, and i just finished med school! im sure by time residency is done and my loans have been in forbearance for a couple years i'll be pretty close to 300 grand. but you know what? I'll find a way to pay it back, and i would totally chose medicine as a career again if given a choice!! well ok, that last bit is a lie, but only because i really dont like working weekends. did you know people in other professions almost never have to work on a weekend? who knew.

 

[blanche]

No, I like them.

me too

 

[slippy22]

For the time being, I'd rather not spread myself too thin



There are so many problems going down in American medicine that I can't possibly come up with solutions for all of them. Otherwise, I would be on this site 24/7. Hopefully by raising issues, more people will become enlightened and some progress can be made. And you are right, there are physicians who love their careers. But they are a minority from my experience- 25% dislike, 50% tolerate, 25% claim they "love" their careers but only about 5% really mean it (the other 20% would say their **** don't stink). The passion of these 5% radiates and they don't have to say it since it is so apparent to everyone in their presence. Unfortunately, I am not in this 5%, but then again most people in medicine aren't.

Surveys of physician satisfaction tend to show much higher rates of physician satisfaction than your numbers imply. Those surveys may have flaws, but at least they're surveys. Do you have real numbers?

Out of curiosity, if medicine is so terrible, what should we have done instead? What jobs are objectively so much better? What do you wish you had done? Be specific.

 

[medicinesux]

Surveys of physician satisfaction tend to show much higher rates of physician satisfaction than your numbers imply. Those surveys may have flaws, but at least they're surveys. Do you have real numbers?

Out of curiosity, if medicine is so terrible, what should we have done instead? What jobs are objectively so much better? What do you wish you had done? Be specific.

Those rough numbers are based on my own experiences after being around countless doctors in all specialties throughout medschool and residency in my particular region of the United States. Take it for what it is worth.

What should you do for a living? Sorry, I cannot give specifics. Only you can answer that for yourself. Ideally I would suggest you do something that you are passionate about. Do something that makes you want to jump out of bed in the morning when the alarm goes off and not hit the snooze button. Do something where you are not counting down the days to your next vacation or the minutes left until you can come home for the day. Do something that you have fun doing not something that is going to make you miserable day in and day out or leave you feeling drained and empty. Also, realize that what you enjoy someone else might despise and vice versa. Sounds like such common sense but yet few people are doing what they love. Tying all this back to the title of this thread, there is nothing worse than being trapped in a miserable job in order to pay off monstrous debt loads. This is the best advice I can give to you- do what you love and good luck.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I think part of the problem here is that medicinesux has several opinions / issues / concerns that have gotten mixed up on this thread.

The first is that medicine is a miserable career due to multiple issues. I am not going to refute that here. I happen to disagree, but I can certainly understand why he/she feels that way.

The second is the concern over another financial crisis regarding educational loans. This is a huge problem, as demonstrated by the links he/she has provided, and has basically the same roots as the housing crisis:

1. Starting in the past, the number of people going to college increased dramatically. New colleges opened to drive this engine. It became "common knowledge" that if you went to college that you could get a better job. Hence, if everyone goes to college, everyone gets a better job. This is crazy.

2. Colleges charge crazy tuition, but they get paid by banks / the feds and are happy.

3. Banks have educational loans that seem rock solid -- they are non dischargeable in bankruptcy.

4. Students get squeezed in the middle. They simply sign their prom notes and it seems all like funny money. It's hard to understand how much it will really all cost. Chances are, they are shown some statement like: $100K @ 7% over 10 years = $1200 per month. They don't really realize what that means, and assume that once they have a college diploma they will of course get some fantastic job that will make tons of money.

5. Students graduate, find they can't get jobs or that they don't pay well, have these huge loans, and wonder what went wrong. They blame the people who wrote the loans for being misleading. The people who wrote the loans blame the students, for getting themselves in too much debt.

6. As far as I know, educational loans have not been securitized. If so, then we have a mirror of the housing market issues.

Of note, this really is not much of a problem for medical students, or really is a different problem. The vast majority of medical students (at least those trained in the US) will graduate and go on to practice. Even those in the lowest paying fields can afford debt of $100K, and even $300K is managable -- except that you can't afford $300K debt payments on your loans and a mortgage / "comfortable lifestyle". So, the problem is not affording the loan, it's affording the loan and the rest of the lifestyle that most physicians expect.

The major problem is numeracy. Most people, even smart ones (like physicians), often have trouble understanding what these debt payments mean in the future.

So, there is going to be some sort of educational loan crisis, but not for most medical school loans. And this is not a problem with medicine specifically (although I agree that the high cost of medical school is a problem, but it's inherently different than the educational loan problem).

I agree completely. I think the situation is far more dire and pitiful for the anthropology major with 100K than the physician with 200K of debt.

 

[pgg]

For the time being, I'd rather not spread myself too thin

Well played. I happen to agree with you about the non-dischargability (if that's a word) of educational loans. I can't muster much sympathy for homebuyers who screwed themselves speculating, lying on loan applications, or buying beyond their means ... but there's something sick and shady about loaning teenagers enormous sums of money for college (which virtually everybody says they need) and making that debt impervious to bankruptcy.

 

[slippy22]

Those rough numbers are based on my own experiences after being around countless doctors in all specialties throughout medschool and residency in my particular region of the United States. Take it for what it is worth.

What should you do for a living? Sorry, I cannot give specifics. Only you can answer that for yourself. Ideally I would suggest you do something that you are passionate about. Do something that makes you want to jump out of bed in the morning when the alarm goes off and not hit the snooze button. Do something where you are not counting down the days to your next vacation or the minutes left until you can come home for the day. Do something that you have fun doing not something that is going to make you miserable day in and day out or leave you feeling drained and empty. Also, realize that what you enjoy someone else might despise and vice versa. Sounds like such common sense but yet few people are doing what they love. Tying all this back to the title of this thread, there is nothing worse than being trapped in a miserable job in order to pay off monstrous debt loads. This is the best advice I can give to you- do what you love and good luck.

I wasn't asking you what I should do instead. I was asking in general. You say medicine sucks. Fine, what doesn't suck? If your only point is that medicine isn't as much fun as a vacation, then your point is silly. Even really great jobs aren't like vacations. Heck, even a vacation wouldn't be like a vacation if it were a job. You must have an idea in mind of what you personally should have done, right? Again, if you just mean that the human condition of having to work for a living is rough, then I'm sorry you and I weren't born with large trust funds, but so it goes. I don't get that impression from your threads, though. I get the impression you think medicine is really bad as a job. So you must be comparing to other things and think they're better. What are a couple examples of much better jobs?

 

[ShyRem]

if you read medicinesux's other threads, they obviously think being a police officer is FAR better than being a doctor.

 

[slight365]

Early retirement after 20 years, start working fairly immediately after training, great retirements and benefits... I wonder where to go vs. hundreds of thousands in debt. Hell, in my long road, I was even wondering about transit or even sanitation. A friend of mine started with sanitation and retired at his 20 years at 39...free to work elsewhere, or enjoy life.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

And you are right, there are physicians who love their careers. But they are a minority from my experience- 25% dislike, 50% tolerate, 25% claim they "love" their careers but only about 5% really mean it (the other 20% would say their **** don't stink).

Those rough numbers are based on my own experiences after being around countless doctors in all specialties throughout medschool and residency in my particular region of the United States. Take it for what it is worth.

Fair enough, here are my "rough numbers" based on "my own experiences", which means about 30 years in medicine including over 20 as an attending pediatric specialist who has worked in multiple centers and travels throughout the country lecturing and meeting with pediatric specialists. I can't really say though if I'm met "countless" doctors in my subspecialty or in all pediatric specialties as I can't quantify countless very well.

Regardless, for the subset of pediatric subspecialists (all subspecialties - meaning pediatricians who completed a 2-3 year fellowship and practice a pediatric medical specialty), my personal experience would lead me to estimate, without any proof at all that:

-5% dislike
-15% tolerate
-5% claim they like but would say their poop (we're pediatricians, we use the "p" word for it) doesn't stink
-75% love their career and mean it.

Among those who don't love their career, the overwhelming reason isn't a dislike for their patients or even the stuff that is listed (autonomy, malpractice, etc), but the difficulty of balancing family and personal life and accomplishing research at the same time.

Now, keep in mind that some pediatric specialists have chosen to specialize even though they make little if any more salary than they would if they hadn't specialized (this isn't true for all pedi specialties). That is, they chose to do things like pedi ID because they loved the field. This biases the sample.

As always, YMMV and I'm sure you and others are aware of miserable, bitter pediatric specialists. I am too. Just not that many of them relative to the ones who are happy with their careers.

 

[medicinesux]

Fair enough, here are my "rough numbers" based on "my own experiences", which means about 30 years in medicine including over 20 as an attending pediatric specialist who has worked in multiple centers and travels throughout the country lecturing and meeting with pediatric specialists. I can't really say though if I'm met "countless" doctors in my subspecialty or in all pediatric specialties as I can't quantify countless very well.

Regardless, for the subset of pediatric subspecialists (all subspecialties - meaning pediatricians who completed a 2-3 year fellowship and practice a pediatric medical specialty), my personal experience would lead me to estimate, without any proof at all that:

-5% dislike
-15% tolerate
-5% claim they like but would say their poop (we're pediatricians, we use the "p" word for it) doesn't stink
-75% love their career and mean it.

Among those who don't love their career, the overwhelming reason isn't a dislike for their patients or even the stuff that is listed (autonomy, malpractice, etc), but the difficulty of balancing family and personal life and accomplishing research at the same time.

Now, keep in mind that some pediatric specialists have chosen to specialize even though they make little if any more salary than they would if they hadn't specialized (this isn't true for all pedi specialties). That is, they chose to do things like pedi ID because they loved the field. This biases the sample.

As always, YMMV and I'm sure you and others are aware of miserable, bitter pediatric specialists. I am too. Just not that many of them relative to the ones who are happy with their careers.

I admit peds docs tend to be the happiest among all the specialties, however I must say your numbers appear way off the chain to me. 75% love it and only 5% dislike?! Really? You must be practicing in a bubble. Even if you surveyed the entire cast and crew of Sesame Street, I don't think you would see such a positive response.

Check out this recent 2008 Merrit and Hawkins Survey:

http://www.physiciansfoundations.org/usr_doc/PF_Survey_Report.pdf

If medicine is so satisfying then why on earth would 60% of physicians NOT recommend medicine as a career to their children??? This speaks volumes. I know if my kid told me he was going into medicine I would disown him. Furthermore, 66% of physicians stated that they found their current practice of medicine "less satisfying" or "unsatisfying" whereas ONLY 5% found it to be VERY SATISFYING and 78% responded that over the past five years, the practice of medicine has become less satisfying. In other words, it is only getting worse. Just read the comments submitted by countless embittered physicians near the end of the survey and see for yourself.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

I admit peds docs tend to be the happiest among all the specialties, however I must say your numbers appear way off the chain to me. 75% love it and only 5% dislike?! Really? You must be practicing in a bubble. Even if you surveyed the entire cast and crew of Sesame Street, I don't think you would see such a positive response.

The internets are wonderful in that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Like/love are difficult terms to define in terms of career, since most people would use "love" to describe non-work related things in their life. I used your term of "love" although I would prefer to say that, in my opinion, 75% of pediatric specialists are "satisfied" with their career. I stand by that number. In your experience with speaking in a frank manner with countless pediatric specialists, what % would you say are "satisfied" with their career?

I don't care to debate surveys as there are multiple showing a range of satisfaction results, the level of satisfaction largely related to who did the survey and how it was done. The one you posted is almost completely unrelated to the group of physicians (pediatric specialists) I am describing.

 

[SocialistMD]

If medicine is so satisfying then why on earth would 60% of physicians NOT recommend medicine as a career to their children???

I won't recommend any career to my children, be it mine or another. It is their decision and I don't want to bias them towards my career in an effort to make me "happy" or "proud," because I don't think they should do it unless they want to. It's all about the wording of the question.

 

[AttyHubby]

I won't recommend any career to my children, be it mine or another. It is their decision and I don't want to bias them towards my career in an effort to make me "happy" or "proud," because I don't think they should do it unless they want to. It's all about the wording of the question.

True dat, but there are definitely some careers my kids won't be allowed to pursue - any that start with not going to college.

 

[slippy22]

True dat, but there are definitely some careers my kids won't be allowed to pursue - any that start with not going to college.

Many SDN posters think some of those jobs are much better than being a physician, like police officer. I don't agree, but I wouldn't stop my kid from being a cop if they wanted to. You would? I hope you're paying for college if you're forcing your kid to bear the cost of years out of the workforce and tuition.

 

[AttyHubby]

Many SDN posters think some of those jobs are much better than being a physician, like police officer. I don't agree, but I wouldn't stop my kid from being a cop if they wanted to. You would? I hope you're paying for college if you're forcing your kid to bear the cost of years out of the workforce and tuition.

Yes, I will be paying for my kids' college, as I believe any parent that is financially able should (not trying to start a debate on this, I realize some people disagree for whatever reason). Obviously I can't force my kids to do something they don't want to do, but the choice is going to be pretty obvious. Either go to college and I'll pay your tuition and living expenses, or don't and I won't.

 

[Coastie]

300k in loans does not equal 7k a month repayment. That's less than a 5 year plan.

Sallie Mae works with people in grace.

Troll post on that forum.

Hi,

My husband and I are about to graduate from a Masters program. Our combined private student loan debt is $300,000! We are sooo scared because there is no way we will be able to pay $7,000 a month. Our debt is higher than the average student because we put ourselves through school We had no grants, no money saved, no nothing. Also, every year of studies we were raising two boys.

Sallie Mae doesn't want to tell me our options because we are not in repayment yet. We are in our 6 month grace period. I need to know, however, what are our options so we can prepare for rough times. We need to figure out how we will get by and only use basic necessities. What is worse, is that we are poorer than when we started school. At least we had 0$ and not -300,000$. Because our combined income will be 70,000$ we don't even qualify for government health care. I am not sure what is the monthly payment with the different programs.

What will we do? There is no way we can pay, we don't make 7,000$ a month. Also, I am willing to pay with 50% or even 70% of our income as long as we have food, shelter, and medical care.

Please give me any advise you can think of.

Karla

 

[Coastie]

Have 300k debt?

Work and live like a resident for the first few years as an attending. You'll pay it off in no time.

Even straight IM guys can pull > 200k (usually 250k) with this sort of work setup. Post taxes on 250k, you're looking at 180k at the worst. Oh, and p.s., live in a state without income tax.

Let's say you're 31 when you finish IM residency, and you're married with a kid, and 300k debt.

180k/12 months = 15,000 a month.

Live on 5,000 a month for a year. That's 120,000 (post tax dollars) towards debt.

Do it for three years. That's 360k towards your debt.

Now live free of debt, at age 34, and ramp up lifestyle/invest as you see fit.

It's bleak for many people, but it's not that bleak for us at the moment.

 

[michaelrack]

Have 300k debt?

Work and live like a resident for the first few years as an attending. You'll pay it off in no time.

Even straight IM guys can pull > 200k (usually 250k) with this sort of work setup. Post taxes on 250k, you're looking at 180k at the worst. Oh, and p.s., live in a state without income tax.

Let's say you're 31 when you finish IM residency, and you're married with a kid, and 300k debt.

180k/12 months = 15,000 a month.

Live on 5,000 a month for a year. That's 120,000 (post tax dollars) towards debt.

Do it for three years. That's 360k towards your debt.

Now live free of debt, at age 34, and ramp up lifestyle/invest as you see fit.

It's bleak for many people, but it's not that bleak for us at the moment.

"straight IM guys" usually aren't pulling more than 200k their first couple of years as an attending.

 

[Coastie]

"straight IM guys" usually aren't pulling more than 200k their first couple of years as an attending.

every hospitalist I know started @ > 200k, especially if they work like residents, as I noted above...

 

[medicinesux]

300k in loans does not equal 7k a month repayment. That's less than a 5 year plan.

Sallie Mae works with people in grace.

Troll post on that forum.

The freak out tone of her words make me sense that she is no troll. She states that just her private loans were 300K. Who knows how much extra in public student loans or credit card balances she also has. I surmise that she could be lumping all her monthly outflow at 7K a month. In any case she is in some really dire straits especially since private loans have minimal forbearances and much shorter intervals to default when compared to federal loans.

Have 300k debt?

Work and live like a resident for the first few years as an attending. You'll pay it off in no time.

Even straight IM guys can pull > 200k (usually 250k) with this sort of work setup. Post taxes on 250k, you're looking at 180k at the worst. Oh, and p.s., live in a state without income tax.

Let's say you're 31 when you finish IM residency, and you're married with a kid, and 300k debt.

180k/12 months = 15,000 a month.

Live on 5,000 a month for a year. That's 120,000 (post tax dollars) towards debt.

Do it for three years. That's 360k towards your debt.

Now live free of debt, at age 34, and ramp up lifestyle/invest as you see fit.

It's bleak for many people, but it's not that bleak for us at the moment.

I agree wholeheartedly with you about living WAY below your means and saving. However, your assumptions and plan are a bit too ambitious for the typical med school grad. Most newly minted docs are not "lucky" enough to land a high paying specialty like derm, gas or rads. Many come out doing primary care and like michaelrack stated above, median starting pay in primary care is under 200K- more like mid 100's and not a quarter of a mil. Plus, most people simply don't have the discipline to continue a life of poverty and want to start families, buy a home and so forth and so on. Very few grads will have the income (>250K) AND discipline to throw 10K a month at student loans. Besides, with the economic mess we are in and possible high inflation on the horizon it might not be a good idea to quickly pay down federal loans if you have a low locked rate.

 

[medicinesux]

From the wall of the famous 230,000 member Facebook forgive student loan group-

"How much do you owe"

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=46657437878&topic=12520#topic_top

I can't get over those owing over 100K just from undergrad!!! So, yeah we have a problem- even I didn't think it was THIS bad yet.

 

[slight365]

Well, it's starting to appear that one doesn't automatically get a higher paying job just simply because they went to a high-end, or expensive school, from the way students are unable to pay their loans back.

100k for undergrad? Try looking at the kids that go to those 40k a year schools, but luckily, they have parents, I guess. My advice to most everyone is to go to a cheap school, even a good CC (some also have honors programs), and just kick ass for two years and then watch how the recruiters with free money and perks come after you.

In my time split between a Uni and the associated CC (my school allowed this to make a proper schedule due to high rates of conflicts), I saw many highly qualified students there on financial grounds looking for great scholarships. The universities in the area, some tier 1, along with others in other states were all there looking for students quite actively.

 

[NRAI2001]

Most hospitalists I ve spoken to work 1 week on and 1 week off making upper 100s (180 or 190) plus bonuses...putting them just over 200k a year. I asked one of the physicians what he does on his off week, he said that he works at his wifes private practice (who is also Internal Med) probably brining in some more income (I m sure other hospitalist physicans could find some sort of work during there off week..)

Most docs working for HMOs make close to those figures, minus the week on week off..

 

[medicinesux]

received an email today from projectstudentdebt.org regarding a hearing in Washington on Sept 23 concerning the toxicity of student loans. A very thorough and interesting testimony by Lauren Asher, President of the Institute for College Access and Success can be read here-http://projectonstudentdebt.org/files/pub/Asher_testimony_90923.pdf

The Obama Administration is pushing for the creation of a new Consumer Financial Protection Agency (CFPA), which would protect consumers from risky financial products and services, including private student loans. A strong CFPA could help protect private loan borrowers from deceptive marketing and unfair loan terms and treatment.



The financial industry is lobbying hard against the CFPA, and consumers need to speak up before it's too late. Please tell your members of Congress that we need a CFPA with authority over all private student loans to protect borrowers and ensure private loans are only used as a last resort.

http://projectonstudentdebt.org/letter_view.php?idx=17

Please click the link above and write to your elected officials- it took me less than 45 seconds. I wasn't going to take the time to bother but when I read the following excerpt from the above testimony I felt compelled to do something and write-

"Ironically, private loan creditors remain fully eligible for the bankruptcy protection that their borrowers are now denied. Bankruptcy helps failed businesses discharge outstanding debt and make a fresh start regardless of the nature or merits of their product or business model, or the types of debt they carry.

Last year, The Education Resources Institute (TERI) declared bankruptcy with tens of millions of dollars in outstanding debt. TERI guaranteed private student loans for First Marblehead Corporation, which was a major player in the private loan market and a strong advocate for making private loan debt non-dischargeable for borrowers. First Marblehead rode the wave of securitizations that led to the current credit crunch, packaging private student loans from other lenders and selling them as investments. When these loans experienced higher than expected default rates, TERI went bankrupt and First Marblehead's stock tumbled. Apparently, bankruptcy has enabled TERI to reorganize, and reports of its impending recovery buoyed First Marblehead's stock last month. Meanwhile, TERI's website includes this reminder for private loan borrowers:

"The bankruptcy laws provide that, unlike, other commercial debt, a loan guaranteed by TERI can not be discharged or forgiven in a bankruptcy proceeding unless the borrower proves that repayment of the loan will cause him/her undue hardship."

 

[michaelrack]

every hospitalist I know started @ > 200k, especially if they work like residents, as I noted above...

sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about hospitalists and not general/outpatient primary care.

 

[medicinesux]

This week over on the nontrad forum they are having a contest. Can anyone top this guy's 510K projected debt?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=670029

Can someone please go over and knock some sense into some of these delusional premeds. Medicinesux has somehow developed a headache and needs to go to bed!

 

[Bassix]

Come to think of it, the woman with 300k in PRIVATE LOANS is ****ED BIG TIME. With a private loan that huge, chances are she will not be able to make monthly payments for long and with just one missed payment some private loans can go into immediate default and can never be rehabbed (unlike federal loans). This will tack on an additional 15-25% in fees driving her loan debt up into the high 300's. Then she will be sued and have her wages garnished for life (most states permit this) and possibly have her checking accounts frozen or cleaned out and liens put on any property. Meanwhile her debt will climb higher and higher as the interest rates on these loans have no caps. This woman will be in debt for the rest of her life with no hope of ever having a positive net worth unless she wins the lottery. She will have to live paycheck to paycheck not ever owning her own home or having any big assets like a car. Criminals who serve jail time for heinous crimes have a better outlook than this. At least after they paid their dues to society, they can come out and start their lives anew. This woman is essentially serving a life sentence for taking out those loans. The banking industry in America is truly worse than the mob.

 

[2Sexy4MedSchool]

True dat, but there are definitely some careers my kids won't be allowed to pursue - any that start with not going to college.

I'm a father of 1.5 kids -- number 2 is on its way -- a fourth-year med student and a former attorney and I have to say this sounds elitist to me. I can think of numerous good, honorable, renumerative careers that don't require college:

-- Plumbing
-- Carpentry
-- Construction
-- Cook
-- Full-time mom/dad

Now if you want to argue that a good parent doesn't want their kid to grow up a stripper or prostitute, pharm rep or lobbyist, OK, I'm with you. But to suggest that a college degree = unacceptable seems rather extreme.

Just my $0.02 worth. 2S4MS

 

[rgerwin]

Just a quick note when paying off loans. If you have set aside $120K, don't forget to take into accoutnt he interest that year that will bite into the amount going to principal. So, at 300K, that 1st year will have ~15K-ish in interest. But it will still only take around 3 years to pay off. I do NOT suggest stretching it out 40years, b/c then your overall education will end up being astronomical, not to mention you lose any investments you might make, and the mental irritation of being in debt your entire life.

 

[rgerwin]

al;so, I just wanted to say that my husband and I have ~120K in private loans between us and their current average interest rate is 4.75%. I know it isn't fixed, but compared to my 8.5% Grad Plus, the principal is staying much steadier while we are in school.