Stopping Elective Cases

[Leon'sMom]

I vehemently disagree with virtually all of your harangue. The main reason people are not getting vaccinated is because they DO BELIEVE SOCIAL MEDIA and all its bizarre whacko statements that detract from the science behind the vaccines. The black social Tuskegee collective unconsciousness of antivax unravels when several studies have actually asked the blacks about why they refuse vaccination, and only 10% cite past experimentation- their paranoia is fed through nonsensical idiotic notions about the vaccine that come from social media. The idea that people are not getting vaccinated because they do not believe the medical profession is not the problem since both right and left wing politicians, the majority of the population, virtually all levels of government, all health agencies, celebrities, and now with even Fox media on board, there simply are very few influencers in society that oppose vaccination. The antivax conspiracists, the ultra right wing conspiracists that now distrust even Fox, the rural uneducated with very strong opinions based in fantasy and misinformation juxtaposed against an ocean of data (read: rednecks), and those that are fundamentally uneducated in basic science and research are increasingly becoming victims of their own biases as they become hospitalized in increasing numbers, and continue to spew viral loads into both other unvaccinated individuals and those who are vaxxed. The same group that refuses vaccinations also refuses to exercise even an iota of common sense including masking, social distancing, avoiding crowds of unmasked individuals, and believe bizarrely that their personal liberty is worth far more than the people they are murdering through their twisted psyche. They see any attempt to control this pandemic as an affront to their freedoms, everyone else be damned. They are not selfish for not wanting to be vaccinated- they are selfish for not employing the corollary to lack of vaccination- protecting others through well described health measures. A pandemic with the "me first and only" attitude of Americans is ultimately causing massive disease spread. Why don't you open your eyes to the realities of what is happening on the ground. Physicians and nurses speaking at school board meetings are being attacked and threatened because of rednecks. The polyannish "you do you and I'll do me" coupled with paranoia of the CDC and the many researchers that have spent more than a year and billions of dollars researching COVID so that people who don't trust them can survive this pandemic, is not helpful- it is harmful.

I think 10% refusing vaccines for that particular reason IS significant. That is 10% of a sizable unvaccinated population that will most likely NOT be persuaded by any presentation of data to receive the vaccine because of a historical injustice that occurred.

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[dpmd]

I think 10% refusing vaccines for that particular reason IS significant. That is 10% of a sizable unvaccinated population that will most likely NOT be persuaded by any presentation of data to receive the vaccine because of a historical injustice that occurred.

Significant and sad, but nowhere near the major issue

 

[nimbus]

 

[ryanjmy]

Almost all of those hospitalized refused vaccines.

For sure. But I suspect the Pfizer vaccinated people are contributing to the spread. If an area has 60% of people vaccinated with a vaccine that is only 42% effective, then 75% of the population can spread the virus. Thats a huge difference verse a vaccine 90% effective.

 

[BLADEMDA]

At my shop we are seeing 10 percent of admitted patients for COVID are vaccinated. In addition, 10 percent of patients on Vents are vaccinated.

J and J along with Pfizer are not very effective against the Delta variant. Those who got the Moderna vaccine are better protected against Delta.

 

[dhb]

Idiot is a strong word, but ultimately the hesitancy in many people can be traced back to the notion that they simply don't know what "knowledge" is or how to determine whether something is a fact or not. And ultimately that stems from how piss poor our educational system is for the vast majority of people who matriculate past high school. When the average person has a science class, they think it's about regurgitating tidbits about eukaryotes or cumulonimbus clouds, but they never learn the philosophy of science or the basics of epistemology or why the scientific method works. The byproduct of this is that you end up with a human being who doesn't understand why some things are more true than others, and thus it's easy for them to come to the conclusion that expert (peer-reviewed) scientific consensus on a topic carries the same weight as the opinion of some jerkoff on facebook.

To be fair most MDs don't even know what's going on eventhough most will agree on the pricipal of being vaccinated.
Too much information has led to disinformation where every MD presented with a microphone will give his little opinion and damage what should have been a unified message (see Raoult). I don't fault the public from being very confused and sceptical of all the messages being spread. Specially when you live (like me) largely isolated from the virus and it's effects: i don't know a single person that has been hospitalized for it.
How many people represent the group of right wingers antivaxers that you rant about?

 

[vector2]

To be fair most MDs don't even know what's going on eventhough most will agree on the pricipal of being vaccinated.
Too much information has led to disinformation where every MD presented with a microphone will give his little opinion and damage what should have been a unified message (see Raoult). I don't fault the public from being very confused and sceptical of all the messages being spread. Specially when you live (like me) largely isolated from the virus and it's effects: i don't know a single person that has been hospitalized for it.
How many people represent the group of right wingers antivaxers that you rant about?

That's my point.. even if physicians (or other educated individuals) don't know the intricacies of virology, they still have an understanding of basic empiricism and risk assessment which leads to the conclusion that getting a novel, efficacious vaccine as opposed to getting covid is a no brainer.

The part of the public that is vehemently antivax isn't being misled by some competing group of MDs or experts or scientists. The disinformation about the relative importance of full FDA approval or mrna accumulating in one's ovaries or getting microchipped is coming from laughably unreliable sources. This is not Westinghouse vs Edison where a reasonable person is being pulled between two legitimate interests.

 

[pjl]

Are they not allowed to be in another room scrubbed if the case before that hasn't finished? Is that a legal thing or a hospital policy thing?

I can see how that could be a problem as he's starting another case and the PA causes a surgical mishap and he has to stop surgery in the current room and get to the previous one.

Cuz we do this ALL THE TIME. The moment he unscrubs the next patient is induced or the spinal is done.

These are the people with a single room.

Those with “flip” rooms have different expectations. We do have some rules regulating how soon their second room can start too though.

The rules are created and enforced at the hospital level, but are supported by national narratives.

 

[GassYous]

Just had a patient who came off ecmo recently. Been in the icu for weeks. Trached. Basically a vegetable. I am so glad I was able to participate in his care, so rewarding with all that professional satisfaction. Good thing he avoided that vaccine!

 

[Robotic Wis-Hipple]

IMO, Here are the top 3 reasons why people are hesitant to get Covid vaccines:

1) They don't trust anything that the media tells them. Anything. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. After 5 years of blatant lies about anything and everything, people do not trust the media. If the media is advocating (correctly or incorrectly) for something, people put their guard up.

2) Who has the lowest vaccination rate (regardless of urban/suburban/rural location and regardless of education level)? People of color. Why is that? Perhaps it's for 2 main reasons: a) Historically, people of color were improperly used for experimental medical treatments in the US. In recent history, they've seen reports of poor African nations and vulnerable Caribbean islanders being harmed or exploited by medical/humanitarian interventions. People tend to remember those things and they distrust. b) 24/7 we are bombarded with the message that there is systemic racism at play in the US legal and medical systems. Disparity of outcomes between whites and non-whites with Covid has been emphasized. They don't hear people talking about biological/genetic differences that may be causing worse outcomes. No, they hear people talking about societal/economic/discriminatory reasons for the worse outcomes. Hence, reread reason 2a. They distrust.

3) The medical profession does not sit high upon the pedestal that it once did. For all the years of medical education, training, advancements in technology or procedures that have been mastered, it is evident now more than ever that medicine has become very much a top-down, one-size fits all, homogenized, franchised profession. Insurance companies dictate to the physician. Hospital systems dictate to the physicians. Professional Boards and Organizations set the standards for each specialty. Those experts in the field do the heavy lifting of collecting, analyzing, and disseminating studies of evidence based practice, recommendations, and guidelines-for which you would be considered a heretic for not adhering.

People have seen medical professionals from around the world stand up with questions, alternative ideas, differing analysis of Covid related things, and they've been censored by media. The public is not blind. They know that medicine is science. Science is the exploration of ideas, the collection of data, analysis and conclusion. Anyone that has participated in a 4th grade science fair knows that. So when highly educated physicians, researchers, mathematicians are getting censored and banned for going against the main narrative, something seems amiss. They distrust.

Physicians are less autonomous now than at any time in history, taking orders and shaping their care by what they are told. Ask yourself this: During this pandemic were you personally creating and shaping the treatment protocols for your patients? Were primary care physicians? Were ICU physicians? Or was there a top-down approach by which decisions were differed to a select few? Who were those select few? Who has been directing the general public on what they are supposed to be doing? Was it their longtime, personal, trusted family physician? Or was it Fauci, the CDC, the FDA, the NIH, The WHO? So-called experts at the top levels of government (and some like WHO possibly under the influence of the CCP). Why would the average Joe trust any of those people or institutions?

So, if people are hesitant to get this vaccine, maybe it's not that they are "stupid idiots," "rednecks," or "selfish." Open your mind to some of the other reasons people have for being hesitant. I know it's difficult and frustrating on the front lines, but the way some of you talk about people/patients is an embarrassing and horrible representation of the medical profession, and, quite

IMO, Here are the top 3 reasons why people are hesitant to get Covid vaccines:

1) They don't trust anything that the media tells them. Anything. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. After 5 years of blatant lies about anything and everything, people do not trust the media. If the media is advocating (correctly or incorrectly) for something, people put their guard up.

2) Who has the lowest vaccination rate (regardless of urban/suburban/rural location and regardless of education level)? People of color. Why is that? Perhaps it's for 2 main reasons: a) Historically, people of color were improperly used for experimental medical treatments in the US. In recent history, they've seen reports of poor African nations and vulnerable Caribbean islanders being harmed or exploited by medical/humanitarian interventions. People tend to remember those things and they distrust. b) 24/7 we are bombarded with the message that there is systemic racism at play in the US legal and medical systems. Disparity of outcomes between whites and non-whites with Covid has been emphasized. They don't hear people talking about biological/genetic differences that may be causing worse outcomes. No, they hear people talking about societal/economic/discriminatory reasons for the worse outcomes. Hence, reread reason 2a. They distrust.

3) The medical profession does not sit high upon the pedestal that it once did. For all the years of medical education, training, advancements in technology or procedures that have been mastered, it is evident now more than ever that medicine has become very much a top-down, one-size fits all, homogenized, franchised profession. Insurance companies dictate to the physician. Hospital systems dictate to the physicians. Professional Boards and Organizations set the standards for each specialty. Those experts in the field do the heavy lifting of collecting, analyzing, and disseminating studies of evidence based practice, recommendations, and guidelines-for which you would be considered a heretic for not adhering.

People have seen medical professionals from around the world stand up with questions, alternative ideas, differing analysis of Covid related things, and they've been censored by media. The public is not blind. They know that medicine is science. Science is the exploration of ideas, the collection of data, analysis and conclusion. Anyone that has participated in a 4th grade science fair knows that. So when highly educated physicians, researchers, mathematicians are getting censored and banned for going against the main narrative, something seems amiss. They distrust.

Physicians are less autonomous now than at any time in history, taking orders and shaping their care by what they are told. Ask yourself this: During this pandemic were you personally creating and shaping the treatment protocols for your patients? Were primary care physicians? Were ICU physicians? Or was there a top-down approach by which decisions were deferred to a select few? Who were those select few? Who has been directing the general public on what they are supposed to be doing? Was it their longtime, personal, trusted family physician? Or was it Fauci, the CDC, the FDA, the NIH, The WHO? So-called experts at the top levels of government (and some like WHO possibly under the influence of the CCP). Why would the average Joe trust any of those people or institutions?

So, if people are hesitant to get this vaccine, maybe it's not that they are "stupid idiots," "rednecks," or "selfish." Open your mind to some of the other reasons people have for being hesitant. I know it's difficult and frustrating on the front lines, but the way some of you talk about people/patients is an embarrassing and horrible representation of the medical profession, and, quite frankly, of humanity.

Do you have data for your #2? Honest question. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case as this is common for many medical access issues but from where I live it’s definitely predominantly the Trump followers.

And I agree with the others, your second to last paragraph comes off a bit tinfoil hat as if you’ve got a little Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[chocomorsel]

Most hospitals in the Tampa Bay area have suspended elective surgeries even for outpatient surgeries. Our hospitals are way too full. One hospital I work in has 45% of the entire patient population admitted for COVID. Pregnant patients have a 20% vaccination rate and are being intubated after delivery due to COVID and we have had many fetal demises in advanced pregnancy due to COVID. We have no more ventilators in several hospitals, COVID wards are open fully and there is still not enough room for all the COVID patients. Our ER had 45 patients waiting for beds, a line of ambulances full of COVID patients outside the ER, and PACU full of post surgical patients with no where to send them. We live in the land of the vaccine resistant rednecks who are proud of their lack of masking or social distancing and refuse vaccines no matter what.

This is so disgusting. And we are just supposed to sit there and suck it up and run ourselves ragged and drain resources for these entitled jerks as they continue to put us in harms way. While they leave no room for the other sick patients who won’t put us in harm’s way.
I hate this country sometimes.

 

[chocomorsel]

I’ve got to say, though I haven’t worked at a ton of places, I’ve worked at enough to be able to tell you that this circulator gives versed then takes pt to the OR while the anesthesia “provider” attends to bodily requirements is quite atypical. Sounds to me like something is off there.

If I’m doing the same surgeons back to backs I’ll have tried to pre-draw up drugs, setup intubation equipment, looked up the next patient, and started the preop etc during the preceding case. So then I take pt to PACU/ICU, go take my pee break grab my quick bite, then go consent/examine next pt (I do it in this order so nobody rolls back with my pt while I’m not ready). Typically I’m done with this then go back to the OR and the OR staff is still setting up/counting. So I don’t really understand what’s happening where the anesthesia can’t get their personal needs met without handing off scheduled drugs and technically starting the “anesthesia time” before going to do so. I suspect it’s hourly type “providers” that don’t truly care when your OR finishes because their shift ends at 3pm and they sure as hell are taking their breaks.

But we digress. Sounds like you are a reasonable one. So 👍🏻.

I have actually worked in a lot of places since 2015. In places where surgeons have lots of sway, as in lots of privileges at multiple hospitals, they can really make your life difficult. They can have two circulators in some rooms moving crazy fast.
All the surgeons have to do is threaten to leave and take all their money with them and admin caves. Turnover times can be super fast and depending on where the food is kept (doctors lounge may not not be the same as doctors cafeteria), there is literally no time to run up and down hallways do eat. And sometimes no time to pee unless in the middle of a case. And that is with the circulator bringing a patient back.
So while surgeons are enjoying their meals and bitching about turnovers, we are literally running ourselves ragged and hardly taking care of personal needs. But of course all they think we are doing is playing sudoku and trading stocks.

 

[ChiDO]

Do you have data for your #2? Honest question. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case as this is common for many medical access issues but from where I live it’s definitely predominantly the Trump followers.

And I agree with the others, your second to last paragraph comes off a bit tinfoil hat as if you’ve got a little Stockholm Syndrome.

Latest Data on COVID-19 Vaccinations by Race/Ethnicity | KFF

KFF is collecting and analyzing data on COVID-19 vaccinations by race/ethnicity to gain increased insight who is receiving the vaccine and whether some groups are facing disparities in vaccination.

www.kff.org

As observed in prior weeks, Black and Hispanic people have received smaller shares of vaccinations compared to their shares of cases and compared to their shares of the total population in most states.

Overall, across these 40 states, the percent of White people who have received at least one COVID-19 vaccine dose (49%) was roughly 1.3 times higher than the rate for Black people (38%) and 1.1 times higher than the rate for Hispanic people (43%) as of August 2, 2021.

As of August 2, less than half of Black and Hispanic people have received at least one COVID-19 vaccine dose in the vast majority of states reporting data.

 

[Leon'sMom]

Do you have data for your #2? Honest question. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case as this is common for many medical access issues but from where I live it’s definitely predominantly the Trump followers.

And I agree with the others, your second to last paragraph comes off a bit tinfoil hat as if you’ve got a little Stockholm Syndrome.

COVID-19: Data on Vaccines - NYC Health

NYC info. Scroll down to demographic breakdown by race/ethnicity: Blacks 37% one shot, 32% fully vaccinated. These aren't rural people with lack of access, and I highly doubt they were Trump voters. There have to be a few reasons why this demographic is choosing not to be vaccinated. What are they?

 

[dpmd]

For sure. But I suspect the Pfizer vaccinated people are contributing to the spread. If an area has 60% of people vaccinated with a vaccine that is only 42% effective, then 75% of the population can spread the virus. Thats a huge difference verse a vaccine 90% effective.

Where are you getting your 42% from? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891

 

[dpmd]

Do you have data for your #2? Honest question. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case as this is common for many medical access issues but from where I live it’s definitely predominantly the Trump followers.

And I agree with the others, your second to last paragraph comes off a bit tinfoil hat as if you’ve got a little Stockholm Syndrome.

"As of August 2, 2021, CDC reported that race/ethnicity was known for 58% of people who had received at least one dose of the vaccine. Among this group, nearly two thirds were White (59%), 10% were Black, 16% were Hispanic, 6% were Asian, 1% were American Indian or Alaska Native, and <1% were Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, while 8% reported multiple or other race."

"The U.S. is now 57.8% white, 18.7% Hispanic, 12.4% Black and 6% Asian."

The numbers are tricky because we only have that info for about half the shots given and we don't know if there is similar distribution in those other shots (maybe the ones without info some from pop up clinics were there were more minorities of a certain kind or maybe they are all white for some reason). Also the breakdown for the US population is for all people so we don't know if the same distribution is seen for those who are old enough for the vaccine (like maybe the young kids skew more towards certain races). But i think the interpretation from the info we have suggests that Black people are not more hesitant to get it but Hispanic and especially Asian people seem to be. Whether that interpretation has any true merit, who knows. Maybe the data entry people labeled those folks as white which would mean that white people are disproportionately avoiding the vaccine.

 

[ryanjmy]

Where are you getting your 42% from? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891

Mayo Clinic: COVID Breakthrough Risk May Be Much Lower With Moderna Than Pfizer

The pre-print study suggested the Pfizer vaccine was 34 points less effective in preventing infection last month, at least in one state, NBC New York reports.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Robotic Wis-Hipple]

COVID-19: Data on Vaccines - NYC Health

NYC info. Scroll down to demographic breakdown by race/ethnicity: Blacks 37% one shot, 32% fully vaccinated. These aren't rural people with lack of access, and I highly doubt they were Trump voters. There have to be a few reasons why this demographic is choosing not to be vaccinated. What are they?

Well, I don’t know much about NYC, but the data there shows Manhattan has higher vaccination percentages for all demographics. Why is that? To me this implies socioeconomic/access factors at play. I also note <50% of whites have been vaccinated as well. So it’s not like 1/3 of underrepresented populations are vaccinated while 90% of the majority is….

I think there are lots of reasons, most of which you stated.

 

[dpmd]

Mayo Clinic: COVID Breakthrough Risk May Be Much Lower With Moderna Than Pfizer

The pre-print study suggested the Pfizer vaccine was 34 points less effective in preventing infection last month, at least in one state, NBC New York reports.

www.cnbc.com

Interesting. I wonder what accounts for the big difference in findings.

 

[dpmd]

Well, I don’t know much about NYC, but the data there shows Manhattan has higher vaccination percentages for all demographics. Why is that? To me this implies socioeconomic/access factors at play. I also note <50% of whites have been vaccinated as well. So it’s not like 1/3 of underrepresented populations are vaccinated while 90% of the majority is….

I think there are lots of reasons, most of which you stated.

Yeah, numbers wise there are a whole lot more unvaccinated white people than any other color.

 

[pgg]

IMO, Here are the top 3 reasons why people are hesitant to get Covid vaccines:

1) They don't trust anything that the media tells them. Anything. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. After 5 years of blatant lies about anything and everything, people do not trust the media. If the media is advocating (correctly or incorrectly) for something, people put their guard up.

Let's not casually deflect blame here and absolve them of responsibility for their gullibility and ignorance, because the media-entertainment industry likes to stoke outrage by Just Asking Questions in order to boost ratings.

Yeah, they're being taken for a ride, but they happily got on that Facebook meme roller coaster, have done a bunch of laps, and despite being covered with their own puke, they still won't get off the goddamn thing.

The people who "don't trust the media" because of 5 years of lies, are largely Trump supporters. He is, of course, the source of the great, great majority of the lies told in the last 5 years.

I've been a Never Trumper from the start and I spent a lot of time up to about a week after the 2020 election defending the intentions of his supporters, but there's no defense of this. There just isn't.

Cautious mistrust and skepticism is something I think we'd all understand and defend. But that's not what we're seeing here. We're not seeing nuanced discussion and careful analysis of facts and science by the people who make up the spectrum of vaccine-hesitant to antivax. We're seeing conspiracy theories run amok, mainly because they're being pushed by meme-generating trolls and cynical Republican politicians who have done the math and think spreading misinformation will let them squeeze just a little bit more usefulness out of the Trump cult, before the whole movement burns out.

We're seeing gullible people who'd rather ask grossly unqualified people on the internet for medical advice than ask their own doctors. Yes, they're being lied to. Yes. At some point though, you've got to start blaming the person who believes and believes and believes and believes the lies they're being fed.


This didn't start with Trump. It's been cooking a long time. It took a sharp turn for the worse in the GWB era when the Republican party really started to embrace anti-intellectualism, ramping up its attacks on universities and higher education. At the time I misunderestimated the long term impact of taking specific pride in that president's simple-talkin' ways. But now we've got a generation of voters on the right who think they're wise to ignore the overwhelming agreement of the mass of scientists and physicians in this country on virtually any subject.

What they're doing is wrong and foolish, and what you're doing is deflecting and pretending along with them that they're behaving rationally.

Hey, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again. But they keep getting fooled. Maybe it's because they're fools.

 

[ryanjmy]

I don't get blaming trump for low vaccination rates. He spent the last 6 months of his presidency taking credit for the vaccines and the roll out. Mask wearing and lockdowns are political but every politician and political group is pro vaccine.

 

[deleted875186]

I don't get blaming trump for low vaccination rates. He spent the last 6 months of his presidency taking credit for the vaccines and the roll out. Mask wearing and lockdowns are political but every politician and political group is pro vaccine.

No they are not, what are you talking about.

Look at Rand Paul. Should be a no brainer, every governor and senator should make a strong recommendation to get the vaccine, should get their own in public as an example. Instead we have Tucker Carlson spewing garbage and won’t tell us whether or not he’s vaccinated because he knows how follows love the anti vaccine tone he’s driving.

 

[chocomorsel]

I don't get blaming trump for low vaccination rates. He spent the last 6 months of his presidency taking credit for the vaccines and the roll out. Mask wearing and lockdowns are political but every politician and political group is pro vaccine.

You blame the Pfizer Vaccine for not working well, and absolve conservative politics and media including Trusty Trump for any of this.
Keep it coming.
Are you vaccinated?
I blame the idiots getting all their feeds and disinformation from social media like Facebook and following along like sheeple with Fox News and right wingers. Those crazy media right wingers may spew anti vaccine hate, but I bet you they are vaccinated. They just like to create drama then sit back and watch while munching on popcorn in their mansions nicely isolated.

 

[narcotics999]

I have actually worked in a lot of places since 2015. In places where surgeons have lots of sway, as in lots of privileges at multiple hospitals, they can really make your life difficult. They can have two circulators in some rooms moving crazy fast.
All the surgeons have to do is threaten to leave and take all their money with them and admin caves. Turnover times can be super fast and depending on where the food is kept (doctors lounge may not not be the same as doctors cafeteria), there is literally no time to run up and down hallways do eat. And sometimes no time to pee unless in the middle of a case. And that is with the circulator bringing a patient back.
So while surgeons are enjoying their meals and bitching about turnovers, we are literally running ourselves ragged and hardly taking care of personal needs. But of course all they think we are doing is playing sudoku and trading stocks.

I guess things are different at different places. Over 10+ places I worked in the past couple years, I rarely have no time to take care of biological calls. I smuggle in some snacks for long cases, go to bath room during stable period asking circulation nurse to watch vitals for a minute, get a colleague to get me a short break. True I often don't get the sweet 15-30mins to get a full lunch. So do the surgeons sometimes. This is life.

 

[dpmd]

I guess things are different at different places. Over 10+ places I worked in the past couple years, I rarely have no time to take care of biological calls. I smuggle in some snacks for long cases, go to bath room during stable period asking circulation nurse to watch vitals for a minute, get a colleague to get me a short break. True I often don't get the sweet 15-30mins to get a full lunch. So do the surgeons sometimes. This is life.

I'm guessing you and I have worked at fairly similar places and have lucked out avoiding the malignant places.

 

[Airway]

Thanks for the pfizer moderna observational paper, whoever posted it

For these of you that got a Dec/Jan (Pfizer) and looking at a third dose: Pfizer or moderna? Or wait for a variant specific booster?

 

[Leon'sMom]

No they are not, what are you talking about.

Look at Rand Paul. Should be a no brainer, every governor and senator should make a strong recommendation to get the vaccine, should get their own in public as an example. Instead we have Tucker Carlson spewing garbage and won’t tell us whether or not he’s vaccinated because he knows how follows love the anti vaccine tone he’s driving.

Have you ever watched Tucker? Serious question. Because he's not anti-vaccine. He's anti-vaccine mandate. In other words, he believes that individuals should have the choice to decide for themselves.

There are people who are waiting for FDA approval to happen.
There are people who are still waiting 90 days after having a positive PCR test.
There are people who think natural immunity is superior to induced immunity.
There's been confusing guidance on mask wearing.
There's been poor data collection and reporting on Covid deaths.
There's been poor information on the transmissibility of the virus.
The government shutdowns hurt people financially, psychologically, educationally.
The risk to children remains extremely low. Parents do not want government overriding their parental rights.
Nobody has the right to force you to inject something into your body that you do not want. Period. That is totalitarian.

 

[nimbus]

Let's not casually deflect blame here and absolve them of responsibility for their gullibility and ignorance, because the media-entertainment industry likes to stoke outrage by Just Asking Questions in order to boost ratings.

Yeah, they're being taken for a ride, but they happily got on that Facebook meme roller coaster, have done a bunch of laps, and despite being covered with their own puke, they still won't get off the goddamn thing.

The people who "don't trust the media" because of 5 years of lies, are largely Trump supporters. He is, of course, the source of the great, great majority of the lies told in the last 5 years.

I've been a Never Trumper from the start and I spent a lot of time up to about a week after the 2020 election defending the intentions of his supporters, but there's no defense of this. There just isn't.

Cautious mistrust and skepticism is something I think we'd all understand and defend. But that's not what we're seeing here. We're not seeing nuanced discussion and careful analysis of facts and science by the people who make up the spectrum of vaccine-hesitant to antivax. We're seeing conspiracy theories run amok, mainly because they're being pushed by meme-generating trolls and cynical Republican politicians who have done the math and think spreading misinformation will let them squeeze just a little bit more usefulness out of the Trump cult, before the whole movement burns out.

We're seeing gullible people who'd rather ask grossly unqualified people on the internet for medical advice than ask their own doctors. Yes, they're being lied to. Yes. At some point though, you've got to start blaming the person who believes and believes and believes and believes the lies they're being fed.


This didn't start with Trump. It's been cooking a long time. It took a sharp turn for the worse in the GWB era when the Republican party really started to embrace anti-intellectualism, ramping up its attacks on universities and higher education. At the time I misunderestimated the long term impact of taking specific pride in that president's simple-talkin' ways. But now we've got a generation of voters on the right who think they're wise to ignore the overwhelming agreement of the mass of scientists and physicians in this country on virtually any subject.

What they're doing is wrong and foolish, and what you're doing is deflecting and pretending along with them that they're behaving rationally.

Hey, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again. But they keep getting fooled. Maybe it's because they're fools.

Here’s an example of a conspiracy theory run amok. If somebody doesn’t have enough discernment to realize something they read online is BS, then they are an idiot. There’s no other word for it. He actually believed his little toddlers were Damien. He probably still believes he saved the world.

California man allegedly confesses to killing his children, refers to QAnon and Illuminati conspiracy theories | CNN

A California man confessed to killing his two young children, allegedly telling an FBI investigator he thought they were "going to grow into monsters so he had to kill them," according to a criminal complaint filed Wednesday.

www.cnn.com

Serpent seed - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[dpmd]

Have you ever watched Tucker? Serious question. Because he's not anti-vaccine. He's anti-vaccine mandate. In other words, he believes that individuals should have the choice to decide for themselves.

There are people who are waiting for FDA approval to happen.
There are people who are still waiting 90 days after having a positive PCR test.
There are people who think natural immunity is superior to induced immunity.
There's been confusing guidance on mask wearing.
There's been poor data collection and reporting on Covid deaths.
There's been poor information on the transmissibility of the virus.
The government shutdowns hurt people financially, psychologically, educationally.
The risk to children remains extremely low. Parents do not want government overriding their parental rights.
Nobody has the right to force you to inject something into your body that you do not want. Period. That is totalitarian.

The Supreme Court has already ruled that vaccine mandates are constitutionally valid therefore to argue against a mandate you have to either argue that covid is not a public health emergency or that the vaccines should not be taken. Either way that is a problem.

 

[vector2]

Have you ever watched Tucker? Serious question. Because he's not anti-vaccine. He's anti-vaccine mandate. In other words, he believes that individuals should have the choice to decide for themselves.

There are people who are waiting for FDA approval to happen.
There are people who are still waiting 90 days after having a positive PCR test.
There are people who think natural immunity is superior to induced immunity.
There's been confusing guidance on mask wearing.
There's been poor data collection and reporting on Covid deaths.
There's been poor information on the transmissibility of the virus.
The government shutdowns hurt people financially, psychologically, educationally.
The risk to children remains extremely low. Parents do not want government overriding their parental rights.
Nobody has the right to force you to inject something into your body that you do not want. Period. That is totalitarian.

"
Tucker Carlson also claimed that the Biden administration’s decision to continue listening to scientific experts and adjust pandemic response protocols according to how fast the virus spreads is a bad idea. “American citizens should never be forced to take medicine they don’t want, period. Governments should never require people to submit to any medical procedure, whether that procedure is sterilization, or frontal lobotomies or COVID vaccine,” Tucker said.

Then the Fox News host questioned the efficacy of vaccines once more. It should be noted that COVID-19 vaccines not only protect against the coronavirus but also the dangerously fast-spreading Delta variant of the disease, which is deadlier, surging and could kill an additional 60,000 people nationwide if unchecked. Hospitals across the country are once again struggling to accommodate people who succumb to the Delta variant of COVID-19.

“A rational person would assume there is something wrong with vaccines,” Tucker said, pointing to rising cases. What he neglected to mention is that the U.S. still does not have even 70% of its adult population vaccinated.

Yeah. That definitely sounds like someone who isn't anti-vaccine.

 

[ryanjmy]

You blame the Pfizer Vaccine for not working well, and absolve conservative politics and media including Trusty Trump for any of this.
Keep it coming.
Are you vaccinated?
I blame the idiots getting all their feeds and disinformation from social media like Facebook and following along like sheeple with Fox News and right wingers. Those crazy media right wingers may spew anti vaccine hate, but I bet you they are vaccinated. They just like to create drama then sit back and watch while munching on popcorn in their mansions nicely isolated.

I was vaccinated the first chance I got. I have recommend to everyone that will listen that every unvaccinated adult should get the vaccine.

I don't blame Pfizer. I was just pointing out that people that got its vaccine are contributing to the spread. Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative of orange man bad.

 

[vector2]

I don't get blaming trump for low vaccination rates.

You don't get why a previous vaccine skeptic who got the shot in secret with his wife and who has made maybe 2 or 3 lukewarm public comments in the last 8 months in support of the vaccine despite a large percentage of his fervent supporters being anti-vax.....is part of the low vaccination rate problem?

Regardless, you don't have listen to my narrative about Florida Man. Even Lindsey Graham thinks he could do more

Graham says he's told Trump to 'speak up' on COVID vaccines

As he recovers from a breakthrough infection of the coronavirus, Sen. Lindsey Graham says he has urged former President Donald Trump to press his supporters to get the COVID-19 vaccine.

apnews.com

 

[narcotics999]

Thanks for the pfizer moderna observational paper, whoever posted it

For these of you that got a Dec/Jan (Pfizer) and looking at a third dose: Pfizer or moderna? Or wait for a variant specific booster?

At least Pfizer is not making a variant-specific booster. It claims that the current vaccine is working against delta (at least in terms of hospitalization and death) and by the time it makes a delta-specific vaccine, the virus has already mutated to a new variant.

 

[chocomorsel]

I was vaccinated the first chance I got. I have recommend to everyone that will listen that every unvaccinated adult should get the vaccine.

I don't blame Pfizer. I was just pointing out that people that got its vaccine are contributing to the spread. Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative of orange man bad.

If everyone were vaccinated, it wouldn’t matter who’s spreading it because the vast majority of people who are in the hospital and overwhelming the system are the unvaccinated.

The Pfizer vaccine is doing exactly what it’s meant to be doing. Minimizing symptoms. Keeping people out of hospitals. Preventing deaths.

Really the vaccinated spreading is almost irrelevant.

 

[deleted697535]

Just had a patient who came off ecmo recently. Been in the icu for weeks. Trached. Basically a vegetable. I am so glad I was able to participate in his care, so rewarding with all that professional satisfaction. Good thing he avoided that vaccine!

After this last 18 months i fricking hate ecmo now... I hate this 'skill' that i have...

I used to think if i can only learn the ability to put people on ecmo i can help so many...

I think in the face of delta we are going to have to have a long hard look at ecmo

Btw, every time i see the news down south i feel sick. Im so sorry for you guys

 

[ryanjmy]

You don't get why a previous vaccine skeptic who got the shot in secret with his wife and who has made maybe 2 or 3 lukewarm public comments in the last 8 months in support of the vaccine despite a large percentage of his fervent supporters being anti-vax.....is part of the low vaccination rate problem?

Regardless, you don't have listen to my narrative about Florida Man. Even Lindsey Graham thinks he could do more

Graham says he's told Trump to 'speak up' on COVID vaccines

As he recovers from a breakthrough infection of the coronavirus, Sen. Lindsey Graham says he has urged former President Donald Trump to press his supporters to get the COVID-19 vaccine.

apnews.com

Nice article. Its what Ive been saying. Trump loves taking credit for the vaccine:

"He applauded Trump’s work to develop the vaccine and said he saw vaccinations as necessary for the country to regain its footing.

“He’s very proud of that accomplishment,” Graham said. “From a conservative person’s point of view, we should do all we can as a nation to get our economy back up and running and to protect our way of life."

Why would trump tell people not to take the vaccine he so proud of?

 

[deleted697535]

Have you ever watched Tucker?

There are people who are waiting for...

Nobody has the right to force you to inject something into your body that you do not want. Period. That is totalitarian.

Hes a fricking idiot mouthpiece

Most People aint waiting for anything. They got their head up their ass denying

Nothing wrong with totalitarianism in some circumstances. You do know that all 'laws' are a form of totalitarianism. You wanna drive at 100mph downtown? Well its a dictatorship if i cant do that... I have my rights... Wheres my gun

 

[vector2]

Nice article. Its what Ive been saying. Trump loves taking credit for the vaccine:

"He applauded Trump’s work to develop the vaccine and said he saw vaccinations as necessary for the country to regain its footing.

“He’s very proud of that accomplishment,” Graham said. “From a conservative person’s point of view, we should do all we can as a nation to get our economy back up and running and to protect our way of life."

Why would trump tell people not to take the vaccine he so proud of?

No one disputed he took credit for the vaccine nor is anyone saying that he explicitly said not to get it. The point is that he mostly took credit before the vaccine was even out, and as soon as the vaccine came out and he was leaving office (and thus any future credit would go to his succesor) he went essentially mum.

He knows that tens of millions of people in his cult are anti-vaxxers, but he would rather let covid burn as long as 1. He is protected with his natural immunity from his careless infection, the antibody infusion, and the vaccine, 2. Remaining mum on the vaccine improves his poll numbers amongst his wackjob constituents, and 3. Prolonged covid spikes hurt the current administration.

It's as simple as that (after all, we're talking about someone who in Feb 2020 knew how truly dangerous covid was but didn't tell the public). Anyone else would've taken the shot publicly, done a PSA, and hammered the media daily on the importance of getting vaccinated.

 

[dpmd]

If everyone were vaccinated, it wouldn’t matter who’s spreading it because the vast majority of people who are in the hospital and overwhelming the system are the unvaccinated.

The Pfizer vaccine is doing exactly what it’s meant to be doing. Minimizing symptoms. Keeping people out of hospitals. Preventing deaths.

Really the vaccinated spreading is almost irrelevant.

If everyone was vaccinated it wouldn't be spreading like this at all. Isolated pockets of infection instead of continued pandemic would be happening.

 

[deleted126335]

Have you ever watched Tucker? Serious question. Because he's not anti-vaccine. He's anti-vaccine mandate. In other words, he believes that individuals should have the choice to decide for themselves.

There are people who are waiting for FDA approval to happen.
There are people who are still waiting 90 days after having a positive PCR test.
There are people who think natural immunity is superior to induced immunity.
There's been confusing guidance on mask wearing.
There's been poor data collection and reporting on Covid deaths.
There's been poor information on the transmissibility of the virus.
The government shutdowns hurt people financially, psychologically, educationally.
The risk to children remains extremely low. Parents do not want government overriding their parental rights.
Nobody has the right to force you to inject something into your body that you do not want. Period. That is totalitarian.

The bold are reasonable points.
Counterpoints:
Shutdowns are considered less painful than not shutting down-Consensus of expert opinion. Reasonable people can disagree on this one IMO.
Your kids can reasonably be banned from public and private schools and daycare for not being vaccinated.
Government has curtailed freedoms in the past- the draft, eminent domain, surveillance, hell, almost any laws, etc.
Private property owners and government buildings can reasonably require you to be vaccinated and show proof before allowing you entry.
Don't want the vaccine? Fine. Be a shut in and home school your kids.

 

[Shimmy8]

I got the booster. Pfizer was only option, and I went for it.

Had to get creative, but I got it.

 

[Iso4ane]

At my shop we are seeing 10 percent of admitted patients for COVID are vaccinated. In addition, 10 percent of patients on Vents are vaccinated.

J and J along with Pfizer are not very effective against the Delta variant. Those who got the Moderna vaccine are better protected against Delta.

But, even at 10%, they are underrepresented , which points towards vaccines working.

 

[Aether2000]

OMG- I feel so very sorry for Leon.

 

[chocomorsel]

I got the booster. Pfizer was only option, and I went for it.

Had to get creative, but I got it.

How? Please enlighten us.

 

[Shimmy8]

Go to a mass vaccination site or CVS and tell them you haven’t had one. They don’t run you through a database or anything. They just want shots in arms. I know LOTS of healthcare workers in the area have done the same.

Or just tell them you have lupus or something now that it’s FDA approved for immunocompromised. They’re not checking med histories, hell they didn’t even check my ID.

And I don’t feel one bit guilty because we are
throwing away thousands of doses of vaccines every week in my area. The only thing I stole a vaccine from is a landfill.

I think if geopolitics weren’t at stake we’d have already approved boosters for folks ->6 months out.

 

[pgg]

Have you ever watched Tucker? Serious question. Because he's not anti-vaccine. He's anti-vaccine mandate. In other words, he believes that individuals should have the choice to decide for themselves.

There are people who are waiting for FDA approval to happen.

Yeah, they're "waiting" the way OJ is waiting to go back to LA until they find the real killer.

 

[deleted875186]

Go to a mass vaccination site or CVS and tell them you haven’t had one. They don’t run you through a database or anything. They just want shots in arms. I know LOTS of healthcare workers in the area have done the same.

Or just tell them you have lupus or something now that it’s FDA approved for immunocompromised. They’re not checking med histories, hell they didn’t even check my ID.

And I don’t feel one bit guilty because we are
throwing away thousands of doses of vaccines every week in my area. The only thing I stole a vaccine from is a landfill.

I think if geopolitics weren’t at stake we’d have already approved boosters for folks ->6 months out.

I think I’m going to do this

 

[deleted875186]

Have you ever watched Tucker? Serious question. Because he's not anti-vaccine. He's anti-vaccine mandate. In other words, he believes that individuals should have the choice to decide for themselves.

There are people who are waiting for FDA approval to happen.
There are people who are still waiting 90 days after having a positive PCR test.
There are people who think natural immunity is superior to induced immunity.
There's been confusing guidance on mask wearing.
There's been poor data collection and reporting on Covid deaths.
There's been poor information on the transmissibility of the virus.
The government shutdowns hurt people financially, psychologically, educationally.
The risk to children remains extremely low. Parents do not want government overriding their parental rights.
Nobody has the right to force you to inject something into your body that you do not want. Period. That is totalitarian.

Yes I have seen Tucker Carlson. If he’s not promoting anti vaccine then why won’t he say if he got vaccinated or not?

Tucker makes a bunch of observations about Biden, Democrats, progressives, etc, and then poses as a question whether whatever topic is “american”, or “constitutional”, or allows “freedom of whatever”. He’s quite good at it, everything comes back to individual freedom and such. But he does often also promote misinformation.

“now they’re telling us Covid is only happening in the unvaccinated, but why then are there so many breakthrough infections? Doesn’t their vaccine work?”

if you don’t recognize that type of rhetoric as anti vax than I don’t know what to say.

 

[thinkorswim]

Have you ever watched Tucker? Serious question. Because he's not anti-vaccine. He's anti-vaccine mandate. In other words, he believes that individuals should have the choice to decide for themselves.

I have watched Tucker Carlson, mostly since I’m just genuinely curious as to what most Americans watch and believe.

He’s anti-vaccine. He’s a white supremacist. He’s pro-authoritarianism. It’s disgusting.