Anybody have any tips? I'm going to go through a full-time program at a reputable university for a DNP-FNP degree. I'm a bit nervous about the academic rigor which is involved with such a program, seeing that it would be my first time dealing with graduate level coursework.
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You’ll write a lot of papers that have to be typed in the American psychological association format, with sources cited. Since you are in a DNP program, you’ll do even more than folks like myself that are in an MSN program. You’ll also have a great big research project you’ll have to complete before you can graduate that I won’t have to, which is why I would never reccomend a DNP to someone, let alone an ADN to DNP program. It’s not that I think the DNP is bad, it’s just that I couldn’t personally reccomend someone go through all that if that person were someone whose best interest I had in mind. It’s an extra year of time and expenses (at a minimum) for a degree that offers a nebulous and inconsistent ticket that guarantees nothing. The DNP is quickly becoming the minimum requirement for a non adjunct teaching position. Beyond that, I don’t see much of a demand for DNPs. The only way it would emerge as a popular option is if it is artificially required by groups that are in charge of accreditation or licensing.
So... what to expect? Expect to wish you were finishing up sooner than they allow you to so you can hit the workforce in a provider role. That’s not sarcasm. Be prepared to be haunted knowing that for most purposes, you will be spinning your wheels and paying money do do extra coursework. There just isn’t a set role besides academics that demands a DNP. The ones that exist outside of a university setting are mostly that way due to artificial constraints...often as simple as an employer saying something like “let’s require a DNP for this role as a practice manager who makes the schedule”, or something along those lines. Some people have a goal to get a doctorate for their “bucket list”, and that’s the most common excuse I’ve heard for folks pursuing a DNP... personal achievement. Thats not good enough for me to sacrifice $100k in extra salary plus the hike in tuition. Look at the DNP as an ultra luxury car (or a hers and his luxury car combo) that you won’t be getting. That’s a high price for personal achievement. But to clarify, the folks claiming the pursuit of personal achievement that I’ve come across typically are folks that are already in practice and holding masters degrees, so they aren’t out as much as someone like yourself.
So... what to expect? Expect to wish you were finishing up sooner than they allow you to so you can hit the workforce in a provider role. That’s not sarcasm. Be prepared to be haunted knowing that for most purposes, you will be spinning your wheels and paying money do do extra coursework. There just isn’t a set role besides academics that demands a DNP. The ones that exist outside of a university setting are mostly that way due to artificial constraints...often as simple as an employer saying something like “let’s require a DNP for this role as a practice manager who makes the schedule”, or something along those lines. Some people have a goal to get a doctorate for their “bucket list”, and that’s the most common excuse I’ve heard for folks pursuing a DNP... personal achievement. Thats not good enough for me to sacrifice $100k in extra salary plus the hike in tuition. Look at the DNP as an ultra luxury car (or a hers and his luxury car combo) that you won’t be getting. That’s a high price for personal achievement. But to clarify, the folks claiming the pursuit of personal achievement that I’ve come across typically are folks that are already in practice and holding masters degrees, so they aren’t out as much as someone like yourself.
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I’m a DNP-FNP who started as a ADN. Remember grad school is a marathon, not a sprint. Schedule vacations during semester breaks well in advance. Pick your committee and final project wisely both in location and topic. A good committee and mentor will make or break your final defense. Enlist people to be on your team; im currently working on publication with my PhD advisor even after graduation.
I know why you went on this website, but you’re better off at allnurses. SDN posters don’t consider you a student doctor. Allnurses you’ll have supportive people, here you’ll have trolls and jerks. Message me privately if you want more advice.
I know why you went on this website, but you’re better off at allnurses. SDN posters don’t consider you a student doctor. Allnurses you’ll have supportive people, here you’ll have trolls and jerks. Message me privately if you want more advice.
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You’ll write a lot of papers that have to be typed in the American psychological association format, with sources cited. Since you are in a DNP program, you’ll do even more than folks like myself that are in an MSN program. You’ll also have a great big research project you’ll have to complete before you can graduate that I won’t have to, which is why I would never reccomend a DNP to someone, let alone an ADN to DNP program. It’s not that I think the DNP is bad, it’s just that I couldn’t personally reccomend someone go through all that if that person were someone whose best interest I had in mind. It’s an extra year of time and expenses (at a minimum) for a degree that offers a nebulous and inconsistent ticket that guarantees nothing. The DNP is quickly becoming the minimum requirement for a non adjunct teaching position. Beyond that, I don’t see much of a demand for DNPs. The only way it would emerge as a popular option is if it is artificially required by groups that are in charge of accreditation or licensing.
So... what to expect? Expect to wish you were finishing up sooner than they allow you to so you can hit the workforce in a provider role. That’s not sarcasm. Be prepared to be haunted knowing that for most purposes, you will be spinning your wheels and paying money do do extra coursework. There just isn’t a set role besides academics that demands a DNP. The ones that exist outside of a university setting are mostly that way due to artificial constraints...often as simple as an employer saying something like “let’s require a DNP for this role as a practice manager who makes the schedule”, or something along those lines. Some people have a goal to get a doctorate for their “bucket list”, and that’s the most common excuse I’ve heard for folks pursuing a DNP... personal achievement. Thats not good enough for me to sacrifice $100k in extra salary plus the hike in tuition. Look at the DNP as an ultra luxury car (or a hers and his luxury car combo) that you won’t be getting. That’s a high price for personal achievement. But to clarify, the folks claiming the pursuit of personal achievement that I’ve come across typically are folks that are already in practice and holding masters degrees, so they aren’t out as much as someone like yourself.
This isn’t entirely true. The process of getting IRB approval, building your own data set and study methodology and then running the t tests yourself in SPSS all of which takes hundreds upon hundreds of hours followed by both preliminary and final defenses really makes a DNP understand the research process at a far deeper level than the MSN. Showcasing your work to your future employer/supervisor (some being MD’s who participate in research themselves) will help set you above your peers. Who cares what title you have, what’s more important is how you can contribute to the organization you are joining.
The problem is that there is already a pathway to do all those things already that is built in to the PhD in nursing. So hundreds upon hundreds of hours of research and data compilation for someone that really should be obtaining more robust clinical knowledge. I’ve done high level research for another degree so I know the struggle. All of that is great for folks that aren’t supposed to be in front of the patient.
Most employers of nurse practitioners aren’t interested in having you compile stats or studies... ie anyone not in a specific public health setting or in academia. Instead, they will be hiring applicants based in clinical experience and judgement. Showcasing research study conclusions are rarely among the contributions that will set one apart when what administration wants is a provider with sound judgement, good work ethic, and efficient processes. The DNP gives a niche skill to a role where there is only niche demand for those services, and it mimics what Nursing PHDs already provides. My hunch is that they added it to the NPs because it is a way to piggyback in the interest and success of NP programs.
Most employers of nurse practitioners aren’t interested in having you compile stats or studies... ie anyone not in a specific public health setting or in academia. Instead, they will be hiring applicants based in clinical experience and judgement. Showcasing research study conclusions are rarely among the contributions that will set one apart when what administration wants is a provider with sound judgement, good work ethic, and efficient processes. The DNP gives a niche skill to a role where there is only niche demand for those services, and it mimics what Nursing PHDs already provides. My hunch is that they added it to the NPs because it is a way to piggyback in the interest and success of NP programs.
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The problem is that there is already a pathway to do all those things already that is built in to the PhD in nursing. So hundreds upon hundreds of hours of research and data compilation for someone that really should be obtaining more robust clinical knowledge. I’ve done high level research for another degree so I know the struggle. All of that is great for folks that aren’t supposed to be in front of the patient.
Most employers of nurse practitioners aren’t interested in having you compile stats or studies... ie anyone not in a specific public health setting or in academia. Instead, they will be hiring applicants based in clinical experience and judgement. Showcasing research study conclusions are rarely among the contributions that will set one apart when what administration wants is a provider with sound judgement, good work ethic, and efficient processes. The DNP gives a niche skill to a role where there is only niche demand for those services, and it mimics what Nursing PHDs already provides. My hunch is that they added it to the NPs because it is a way to piggyback in the interest and success of NP programs.
There’s a difference between the practice research and program evaluation and creating new knowledge. DNP and PhD have different research goals. Is there some cross-over? Sure, but the DNP is different from the PhD.
You’re also implying, without evidence, that a DNP/FNP is somehow not clinically equal to a MSN even though they take the exact same boards with the exact same hour requirement. Don’t discourage a new DNP student right out of the gate, that’s not cool.
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There’s a difference between the practice research and program evaluation and creating new knowledge. DNP and PhD have different research goals. Is there some cross-over? Sure, but the DNP is different from the PhD.
You’re also implying, without evidence, that a DNP/FNP is somehow not clinically equal to a MSN even though they take the exact same boards with the exact same hour requirement. Don’t discourage a new DNP student right out of the gate, that’s not cool.
I never once implied the DNP isn’t clinically equivalent to the masters NP... I directly suggested that it is unfortunate that the clinical equivalence is the same, given the extra work that goes into the DNP.
The comparison between DNP and PHD is really one of distinction without a difference... yes the two degrees have different research goals. But what a potential DNP candidate should look deep within themselves to ask is whether they want to be a clinician, or a researcher, or try to accommodate both. I’m partial to the model of NP that churns out good clinicians in the most efficient path possible at highest reasonable quality, not the pathway that tries to tack on a hefty research component. If someone is thrilled about the prospect of performing research on clinical practices and willing to delay their entry into patient care to do so, then so be it. I’ve found that many RNs that initially speak of moving towards the DNP route do not have such clarity communicated to them initially when they look into the difference between the DNP and the MNP. Further, given the choice, they would most often choose the MNP. Certainly any kind of mandate towards requiring a DNP for entry goes a step further by requiring a captive research workforce when most folks want to simply see and treat patients. Yet we see programs transitioning to exclusively offering the DNP, or else the DNP being pushed as an MNP with more “oomph”. But what it can be compared to us having a mechanic learn how to fix both airplanes and cars. If you are just interested in fixing cars, you may not want to have to train for airplanes as well.
What I’ll suggest to you is likewise to what you suggested to me... don’t insist that I not share reasonable insight with someone right out of the gate... that’s not cool/fair towards either the OP, nor myself. A DNP is an expensive and time consuming proposition not to be taken lightly, or looked at without clear eyes. I’ve never seen my role in life to be a cheerleader for the sake of cheerleading. And if all it takes is one contrarian voice to dissuade someone from a substantial commitment of treasure and effort, then what would that say about the merits of the effort?
I’ll respect the OP as a free thinking adult and assume they are fully capable of rational decisions, rather than act like the industry depends on me holding my tongue for the sake of...what... paying homage to the DNP degree that the industry wants to shove down everyone’s throat? If the OP doesn’t know what they are getting into regarding graduate school, maybe there weren’t other perspectives that weren’t provided to them. So how would the “rah rah” crowd have the best interests of a potential DNP student in mind if the prevailing attitude was to encourage dissenters to “be cool” rather than telling the OP to “be wary”?
Back to the OP... even at this stage where you are about to start your program....be completely sure that the research component is something that you want to do. If not, even being as you are “right out of the gate” so to speak, it only gets more complicated to jump out later. I never thought to talk you out of the DNP you are pursuing, but it’s easier to get off the bus and onto another before you pull out of the depot.
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I never once implied the DNP isn’t clinically equivalent to the masters NP... I directly suggested that it is unfortunate that the clinical equivalence is the same, given the extra work that goes into the DNP.
The comparison between DNP and PHD is really one of distinction without a difference... yes the two degrees have different research goals. But what a potential DNP candidate should look deep within themselves to ask is whether they want to be a clinician, or a researcher, or try to accommodate both. I’m partial to the model of NP that churns out good clinicians in the most efficient path possible at highest reasonable quality, not the pathway that tries to tack on a hefty research component. If someone is thrilled about the prospect of performing research on clinical practices and willing to delay their entry into patient care to do so, then so be it. I’ve found that many RNs that initially speak of moving towards the DNP route do not have such clarity communicated to them initially when they look into the difference between the DNP and the MNP. Further, given the choice, they would most often choose the MNP. Certainly any kind of mandate towards requiring a DNP for entry goes a step further by requiring a captive research workforce when most folks want to simply see and treat patients. Yet we see programs transitioning to exclusively offering the DNP, or else the DNP being pushed as an MNP with more “oomph”. But what it can be compared to us having a mechanic learn how to fix both airplanes and cars. If you are just interested in fixing cars, you may not want to have to train for airplanes as well.
What I’ll suggest to you is likewise to what you suggested to me... don’t insist that I not share reasonable insight with someone right out of the gate... that’s not cool/fair towards either the OP, nor myself. A DNP is an expensive and time consuming proposition not to be taken lightly, or looked at without clear eyes. I’ve never seen my role in life to be a cheerleader for the sake of cheerleading. And if all it takes is one contrarian voice to dissuade someone from a substantial commitment of treasure and effort, then what would that say about the merits of the effort?
I’ll respect the OP as a free thinking adult and assume they are fully capable of rational decisions, rather than act like the industry depends on me holding my tongue for the sake of...what... paying homage to the DNP degree that the industry wants to shove down everyone’s throat? If the OP doesn’t know what they are getting into regarding graduate school, maybe there weren’t other perspectives that weren’t provided to them. So how would the “rah rah” crowd have the best interests of a potential DNP student in mind if the prevailing attitude was to encourage dissenters to “be cool” rather than telling the OP to “be wary”?
Back to the OP... even at this stage where you are about to start your program....be completely sure that the research component is something that you want to do. If not, even being as you are “right out of the gate” so to speak, it only gets more complicated to jump out later. I never thought to talk you out of the DNP you are pursuing, but it’s easier to get off the bus and onto another before you pull out of the depot.
The words you used were “haunted” and “spinning your wheels” you were clearly painting DNP in a negative light. That’s fine to do if someone is deciding between the two, but this guy was accepted to a DNP program and is looking for support, all you did was paint doom and gloom. At the end of the road I’m glad I got a DNP. I feel it was worth the extra sacrifice.
The DNP is not a “niche” role with no applicable use. It’s about creating a bedside clinician capable of fixing a practice problem encountered at the bedside. The DNP competencies are geared towards that, including the research defense and project. When’s the last time a PhD put together a chest tube? Took a blood pressure? The DNP is able to tackle practice problems the PhD isn’t.
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Again, perspective is helpful at any point. The worst time to hear a contrarian view is after it’s far too late to correct course. I’ll respect the OP by assuming they can handle it.
How many problems are out there that NPs feel the need to address with a full blown research project? How many physicians end a typical day and say to themselves “I should fire up the spreadsheet and solve this issue I saw today?” My point is that if someone is pumped about research, then the DNP is for them. If not, it’s an agonizing checkpoint in the way to practice. These days, folks are often hopping into a DNP program because that’s what is offered at the program they want to go to, and they are operating with the understanding that the DNP is just “better”. I see this mostly in the programs the the direct entry programs and the ADN to DNP programs. What you are saying about the DNP and it’s power are not what a lot of DNPs have said in person and on message boards. Most often it’s “personal achievement” as the response for what they’ve gained. Sometimes it’s come up that their a potential employer respected it more than the MNP. Personally, I’m not unlike PAs and physicians, folks who aren’t entering the field with an interest in fixing a practice problem. I want to see patients. If I’m going to go to more school, it’s to get another certification so my clinical knowlege base expands. I don’t buy the notion that to understand research, clinical practice improvement, or problem solving requires a DNP.
How many problems are out there that NPs feel the need to address with a full blown research project? How many physicians end a typical day and say to themselves “I should fire up the spreadsheet and solve this issue I saw today?” My point is that if someone is pumped about research, then the DNP is for them. If not, it’s an agonizing checkpoint in the way to practice. These days, folks are often hopping into a DNP program because that’s what is offered at the program they want to go to, and they are operating with the understanding that the DNP is just “better”. I see this mostly in the programs the the direct entry programs and the ADN to DNP programs. What you are saying about the DNP and it’s power are not what a lot of DNPs have said in person and on message boards. Most often it’s “personal achievement” as the response for what they’ve gained. Sometimes it’s come up that their a potential employer respected it more than the MNP. Personally, I’m not unlike PAs and physicians, folks who aren’t entering the field with an interest in fixing a practice problem. I want to see patients. If I’m going to go to more school, it’s to get another certification so my clinical knowlege base expands. I don’t buy the notion that to understand research, clinical practice improvement, or problem solving requires a DNP.
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Again, perspective is helpful at any point. The worst time to hear a contrarian view is after it’s far too late to correct course. I’ll respect the OP by assuming they can handle it.
How many problems are out there that NPs feel the need to address with a full blown research project? How many physicians end a typical day and say to themselves “I should fire up the spreadsheet and solve this issue I saw today?” My point is that if someone is pumped about research, then the DNP is for them. If not, it’s an agonizing checkpoint in the way to practice. These days, folks are often hopping into a DNP program because that’s what is offered at the program they want to go to, and they are operating with the understanding that the DNP is just “better”. I see this mostly in the programs the the direct entry programs and the ADN to DNP programs. What you are saying about the DNP and it’s power are not what a lot of DNPs have said in person and on message boards. Most often it’s “personal achievement” as the response for what they’ve gained. Sometimes it’s come up that their a potential employer respected it more than the MNP. Personally, I’m not like PAs and physicians who aren’t entering the field with an interest in fixing a practice problem, I want to see patients. If I’m going to go to more school, it’s to get another certification so my clinical knowlege base expands. I don’t buy the notion that to understand research, clinical practice improvement, or problem solving requires a DNP.
I don’t think we are going to change each other’s minds on this one. Have a good weekend my dude.
Thanks for the replies both of you. I can see where both of you are coming from, and the reason why I chose DNP over MSN is really two-fold. Firstly, at some point in the future I'd like to hold a teaching position in conjunction with my clinical practice position. Secondly, while this has been said for awhile, various nursing organizations are recommending and lobbying for DNP to be the standard to enter practice for NPs.
To iknowimnotadoctor, I like how you brought up the final research project. In fact, at my interview they brought up what I was considering for a graduation project which was the furthest thing from my mind at the point. Do you have any suggestions regarding committee and project choices as far as how you picked them?
To iknowimnotadoctor, I like how you brought up the final research project. In fact, at my interview they brought up what I was considering for a graduation project which was the furthest thing from my mind at the point. Do you have any suggestions regarding committee and project choices as far as how you picked them?
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There is no such thing as "too soon" to start working on that monster. I have a few peers who did not get their defense documents approved on time and were graduating late; don't be in that position, that said, don't worry about it too much your first year. I went to a large R1 urban research public university with a very established PhD program already in place. The graduate school has connections to the local healthcare conglomerates who got a list of practice problems that needed to be solved in which the organizations had a vested interest in finding out the answer. The key to this project is to make sure the institution at which you are researching is as invested in you completing your project as you and the school are. You are going to have to convince a whole bunch of strangers to do extra work to help you; make sure its something that is an expectation for them. You most likely wont get to choose your committee chair, but having a PhD committee chair is extremely helpful. Most DNP students had a PhD or two on their committees. Pay attention in your biostats course; I had to go back 8 semesters later and reread all that stuff to run my t tests, even with a biostatistician helping.
Final words of advice;
1- It's not necessarily that much more difficult than your undergraduate courses, but it's a whole lot more work, and in graduate school C=failure. Don't miss posts, get every point you can.
2- Make sure you pick a problem that other people want to see solved, not just yourself or your school.
3- For your project remember you are building the aircraft as you are taxing down the runway; its ok to make mistakes, just make sure they aren't fatal to your research methodology and they get corrected well before your defense.
4- When you start it may not feel like the problem will be difficult to solve, trust me, it is. Expect 50-150 pages for a final document, which must be defended in a public forum in front of your committee.
5- Don't stress out too much over the small stuff and it can be an enjoyable experience. I have no regrets as a DNP graduate.
6- PM me if you want more details. Do not post anything too personal on SDN, there are some really bad people on this site.
Regards,
Dr. Not-a-Doctor
Final words of advice;
1- It's not necessarily that much more difficult than your undergraduate courses, but it's a whole lot more work, and in graduate school C=failure. Don't miss posts, get every point you can.
2- Make sure you pick a problem that other people want to see solved, not just yourself or your school.
3- For your project remember you are building the aircraft as you are taxing down the runway; its ok to make mistakes, just make sure they aren't fatal to your research methodology and they get corrected well before your defense.
4- When you start it may not feel like the problem will be difficult to solve, trust me, it is. Expect 50-150 pages for a final document, which must be defended in a public forum in front of your committee.
5- Don't stress out too much over the small stuff and it can be an enjoyable experience. I have no regrets as a DNP graduate.
6- PM me if you want more details. Do not post anything too personal on SDN, there are some really bad people on this site.
Regards,
Dr. Not-a-Doctor
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Thanks for the replies both of you. I can see where both of you are coming from, and the reason why I chose DNP over MSN is really two-fold. Firstly, at some point in the future I'd like to hold a teaching position in conjunction with my clinical practice position. Secondly, while this has been said for awhile, various nursing organizations are recommending and lobbying for DNP to be the standard to enter practice for NPs.
To iknowimnotadoctor, I like how you brought up the final research project. In fact, at my interview they brought up what I was considering for a graduation project which was the furthest thing from my mind at the point. Do you have any suggestions regarding committee and project choices as far as how you picked them?
Your logic is sound with regard to what a DNP can do for you in providing an avenue for a decent teaching position. In my program, even though I’m in a masters track, I’ve taken note that the professors that are in charge overall are DNPs. There are masters degree holders in instructor roles, but the program leaders have their doctorates. It definitely brings clout to someone who wants to get on as faculty and sets one apart from folks that have their masters by default because it was what we’ve done as part of our pathway to practice. The DNP says “I’ve done what it takes to do more and take on more”. So I can’t argue with that. As for the DNP being the required threshold for entry? Not happening, despite what the various nursing organizations want to see happen. Schools are transitioning to DNP more over time, but the ones that still offer the masters degree can basically print money with their masters options, because they have so many folks that will chose it due to time savings and lack of interest in the work that goes into a needless doctorate (and by needless, I mean that I certainly don’t need one in my life).
As far as difficulty of graduate school. My RN degree was difficult. RN school faculty seem to take joy in making school harder than it needs to be. But my BSN and most of y masters has been the easiest degree I’ve taken on compared to my pre med undergrad coursework. But the problem that comes with nursing grad school is complacency. Like iknowimnotadoctor said, it’s a good idea to chase all the points that you can and not leave any on he table. I’ve pulled almost all A’s, and when I didn’t, it’s been simply due to laziness on my part. I don’t dig the coursework on community nursing and organizational theory, so in my boredom, I’ve been lax at times. But that need not be the case, and given the fact that C’s are indeed oftenfsiking grades, I could imagine someone could get in over their head if they arent disciplined. So I do suggest attention to detail. I also suggest getting things done ahead of time as often as you can.
So basically, you only have one reason that I find suitable for justifying a DNP, which is the desire to teach, but even then, unless you want to teach full time or on a career track, I think it’s overkill. If you want to teach and work at the same time, then a masters will cover you. Or you could get the masters and hit the market and then later in start in your doctorate once you’ve seen what the practice environment needs you to do for a project.
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