St. George's University & Ross University Residencies

[LadyEMT]

At the crossroads of SMP (Special Masters Program) and Caribbean Medical School, I have decided to pursue the Caribbean Medical School route. Upon further research, I narrowed my choices down to 2 schools only--St. George's University in Grenada; and Ross University in Dominica. After browsing this forum and reading many of the negative or discouraging comments about the disadvantages of going to either school or any of the top 4 Caribbean schools--crappy or no residencies, poor education, IMGs at the bottom of the totem pole, lack of respect, SMPs will be better, etc. etc.--I decided to do some research myself. Pleased with what I have found as a result of my research, I am even more convinced that St. George's and/or Ross are the best choices for me.

Harvard University Psychiatry Residency 2012-2013 has 3 St. George's graduates (and one from Saba University which happens to be one of the top 4 Caribbean Medical schools)
Click to view Harvard Psychiatry Residency Class of 2016 List

Waterbury Hospital Residency 2011-2012. Can you guess where the Chief Residents of their General Surgery Residency Program went for medical school? You guessed right if you said St. George's University and Ross University. Note there a quite a few general surgery residents from St. George's and Ross in that list.
Click to view Waterbury Hospital General Surgery Residency

University of Maryland School of Medicine Professor Dr. Traci Thoureen graduated from St. George's University and completed her residency in emergency medicine at Yale University.
http://medschool.umaryland.edu/facultyresearchprofile/viewprofile.aspx?id=9009

One of the Chief Residents at Beth Isreal Family Practice also happens to be a St. George's University medical graduate:
http://www.bifp-residency.org/residents.htm

Beth Isreal Medical Center has a wonderful relationship with both St. George's University and Ross University. It is, therefore, no surprise that this list of their top residents over the last few years are alumni of these 2 universities. Notice where these grads went on to practice medicine post-residency, too. Impressive!
Click to view Beth Israel Medical Center Psychiatry Resident & Fellow Alumni

University of Washington Nephrology Fellows include St. George's & Ross Medical School graduates who so happen to be rubbing elbows with Ivy League and Top US Medical School graduates as well in this list of 2012-2013 fellows:
Click to view 2012-2013 Nephrology Fellows of University of Washington

The list goes on and on. It just goes to show you that the education you will receive at St. George's University and Ross University can take you to the promise land we call MEDICINE. They can also land you in top competitive residency positions, too. These are credible schools. They have graduated thousands of doctors who rub elbows with US med school graduates on a daily basis--residency and post-residency. They have landed top positions and roles with the education received from these 2 universities. Never mind the negative comments that several posters here may have about these schools. These schools will give you the opportunity. It is up to YOU to make the best of this opportunity. Study hard! Work harder! Respect is eventually EARNED and not given. St. George's University and Ross University has earned that respect. They definitely earned mine.

I keep my fingers crossed for the entering class of Fall 2013.

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[Dionysus007]

Get ready for people to start saying that those people are "rare cases;" what you posted is "not that impressive;" "half the people who started (or some percentage pulled out of nowhere) don't even make it off the island!!" (although the huge 'dropouts' are during the first two semesters, and not all of them are due to dismissals), and etc etc etc.

Good luck! I'm assuming you applied to both Ross and SGU?

 

[Unzbuzzled]

These matches are pretty impressive. Just keep in mind that there are 23 new US medical schools opening up but there hasn't been an increase in the number of residency positions. What that means is that for every new US grad, theres one less seat available to FMGs, including students from SGU and Ross. Be an exceptional student, and things will go well for you.

 

[Skip Intro]

Get ready for people to start saying that those people are "rare cases;" what you posted is "not that impressive;" "half the people who started (or some percentage pulled out of nowhere) don't even make it off the island!!" (although the huge 'dropouts' are during the first two semesters, and not all of them are due to dismissals), and etc etc etc.

Good luck! I'm assuming you applied to both Ross and SGU?

These matches are pretty impressive. Just keep in mind that there are 23 new US medical schools opening up but there hasn't been an increase in the number of residency positions. What that means is that for every new US grad, theres one less seat available to FMGs, including students from SGU and Ross. Be an exceptional student, and things will go well for you.

True and agreed.

-Skip

 

[peppy]

Harvard University Psychiatry Residency 2012-2013 has 3 St. George's graduates (and one from Saba University which happens to be one of the top 4 Caribbean Medical schools)
Click to view Harvard Psychiatry Residency Class of 2016 List

Keep in mind that just because a program has "Harvard" in the name doesn't mean it's prestigious/selective. Harvard has several affiliated residency programs and the Southshore program is considered the least prestigious of them. Even though it carries the name Harvard, most of your training at Harvard Southshore is spent working in the VA in Brockton MA.

In comparison, here is the resident list for the Harvard MGH/McLean program: http://mghmcleanpsychiatry.partners.org/residents/current-residents/
and the Harvard-Cambridge program: http://www.challiance.org/Academics/AdultPsychiatryResidents.aspx
Notice that those affilites' residents are mostly American MDs from the higher-tier MD programs. Your chances at those programs as a Carib grad are likely not going to be good.
Not saying this as a criticism of Carib grads, just want to make sure that people have accurate understandings of the situation for Carib grads.
I also suspect that with the recent announcement of a combined DO/MD match, things will likely get harder for Carib grads in the next few years.

 

[laricb]

Keep in mind that just because a program has "Harvard" in the name doesn't mean it's prestigious/selective. Harvard has several affiliated residency programs and the Southshore program is considered the least prestigious of them. Even though it carries the name Harvard, most of your training at Harvard Southshore is spent working in the VA in Brockton MA.

In comparison, here is the resident list for the Harvard MGH/McLean program: http://mghmcleanpsychiatry.partners.org/residents/current-residents/
and the Harvard-Cambridge program: http://www.challiance.org/Academics/AdultPsychiatryResidents.aspx
Notice that those affilites' residents are mostly American MDs from the higher-tier MD programs. Your chances at those programs as a Carib grad are likely not going to be good.
Not saying this as a criticism of Carib grads, just want to make sure that people have accurate understandings of the situation for Carib grads.
I also suspect that with the recent announcement of a combined DO/MD match, things will likely get harder for Carib grads in the next few years.

straight from the mouth of a DO student, why do DO students feel so threatened by Carib Graduates

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

straight from the mouth of a DO student, why do DO students feel so threatened by Carib Graduates

I don't think trying to inform students about the risks of getting a residency as a Caribbean grad show any anger towards them. There are exceptional Caribbean graduates who are amazing doctors; however, it is wise to understand that this route is harder.

So with more US grads the chances to match as a Caribbean grad will get lower. If you never match how will you pay back that debt. If you were my family this is the same thing I would say. And if you end up falling in love with Ortho, derm, plastics, etc...will you have a harder time trying to match? Yes. Does this mean you are not a good doctor or not as capable? Ofcourse not.

Does this make sense? Most American programs match 90% of their grads. Most Caribbean programs are considerably less.

Just to be clear, I don't discriminate, feel threatened by, or think less of Caribbean grads.

 

[laricb]

I don't think trying to inform students about the risks of getting a residency as a Caribbean grad show any anger towards them. There are exceptional Caribbean graduates who are amazing doctors; however, it is wise to understand that this route is harder.

So with more US grads the chances to match as a Caribbean grad will get lower. If you never match how will you pay back that debt. If you were my family this is the same thing I would say. And if you end up falling in love with Ortho, derm, plastics, etc...will you have a harder time trying to match? Yes. Does this mean you are not a good doctor or not as capable? Ofcourse not.

Does this make sense? Most American programs match 90% of their grads. Most Caribbean programs are considerably less.

Just to be clear, I don't discriminate, feel threatened by, or think less of Caribbean grads.

Sorry but that is what it sounds like. If you are attending a Carib school and don't yet understand the challenges then you are not doing your homework. If you can attend either ROSS or SGU and do well on the step 1 test you will have no problem matching. I know of 4 graduates 3 from SGU and 1 from ROSS 2 are Anesthesiologists 1 is in internal med (her choice) and general surgery. The problem is when talking about Carib schools the numbers from all 60 or so Carib Med Schools get bunched together.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

Sorry but that is what it sounds like. If you are attending a Carib school and don't yet understand the challenges then your not doing your homework. f you can attend a either ROSS OR SGU and do well on the step 1 test you will have no problem matching. I no of 4 graduates 3 from SGU and 1 from ROSS 2 are Anesthesiologists 1 is in internal med (her choice) and general surgery. The problem is when talking about Carib schools the numbers from all 60 or so Carib Med Schools get bunched together.

You can read my statement as you want; it does not matter to me. I don'tknow how what I said makes it seem like I hate people that go to Ross or St. G.I don't get it...Couple of questions to consider.

1) What is the guarantee that you will get 250 on both steps just becauseyou are hardworking and do Uworld twice with FA, MTB, etc?

2) Exceptions exist to every rule, what guarantees that you will be an exception?

3) What will you do with the 200,000 in loans if you don't get a spot?

4) What is the match rate at Ross and St. G? I don't know and am curious.

5) What will the climate be like in 4 years with the combined match and theincreased number of AMGs?

 

[laricb]

You can read my statement as you want; it does not matter to me. I don'tknow how what I said makes it seem like I hate people that go to Ross or St. G.I don't get it...Couple of questions to consider.

1) What is the guarantee that you will get 250 on both steps just becauseyou are hardworking and do Uworld twice with FA, MTB, etc?

2) Exceptions exist to every rule, what guarantees that you will be an exception?

3) What will you do with the 200,000 in loans if you don't get a spot?

4) What is the match rate at Ross and St. G? I don't know and am curious.

5) What will the climate be like in 4 years with the combined match and theincreased number of AMGs?

Things change by the day. What happens if Pres Obama is re-elected and his healthcare plan stays put, there will be more of a need for physicians. There is a bill in the house right now to increase the number of residencies that is on hold until after the election, you can't decide to not pursue a career in medicine because of what might happen 4 yrs from now. As far as getting 250 on your steps, If you go to a US med school and don't perform well on your step 1 test you won't be getting into a special program anyway.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

Things change by the day. What happens if Pres Obama is re-elected and his healthcare plan stays put, there will be more of a need for physicians. There is a bill in the house right now to increase the number of residencies that is on hold until after the election, you can't decide to not pursue a career in medicine because of what might happen 4 yrs from now. As far as getting 250 on your steps, If you go to a US med school and don't perform well on your step 1 test you won't be getting into a special program anyway.

Sure, you are right. I am certain increasing residency spots is going to be number 1 on the agenda. The way Medicare is it will definitely happen.

Career in medicine vs chances of matching due to increased competitiveness in the program are two different subjects. What will you do if you don't match is the question and statistically it is a higher likelihood you will not match because you went to the islands. It just is this way and is good to be prepared.

A guy with a 200 from an American medical school will have an easier time matching into a program than a guy with a 200 from a Caribbean program. It's only gonna get harder. There are going to be more AMGs coming out in 4 yrs than today. Will there be more spots in 4yrs isn't a guarantee.

 

[laricb]

Sure, you are right. I am certain increasing residency spots is going to be number 1 on the agenda. The way Medicare is it will definitely happen.

Career in medicine vs chances of matching due to increased competitiveness in the program are two different subjects. What will you do if you don't match is the question and statistically it is a higher likelihood you will not match because you went to the islands. It just is this way and is good to be prepared.

A guy with a 200 from an American medical school will have an easier time matching into a program than a guy with a 200 from a Caribbean program. It's only gonna get harder. There are going to be more AMGs coming out in 4 yrs than today. Will there be more spots in 4yrs isn't a guarantee.

More AMG and the same amount of American MD School doctors This is were the extra Residency spots will go. They will be in primary care

 

[johhnybgood]

there is simply no arguing for the case of caribbean students and I am one. If you can go to a DO school or MD in US, it is without a doubt the best route. However, I am applying to residencies this year and am getting lots of interviews. But they're in FM. Sure, they are from great universities, but it is extremely difficult to match into anything other than FM, IM, OB/GYN, PEDs. For example, I have step 1 of :225 and step 2 of 245 with an EM rotation at Mayo. I have applied to EM residencies this year in addition to FM. I have gotten 8 rejections and 1 wait list. American students at low tier schools with my same stats have 12 IV's. And like previous posters have said, this is only going to get worse. Too many schools are expanding and new schools are opening. In 5-7 years, the window for Carib's may be over. So for those of you starting now, you may want to rethink it. It will be a rough rough road. And forget it if you get <220 on either of the steps. anyway, good luck, just know what you are getting into.

 

[Frozen Entropy]

May I ask where you went in the Caribbean?

 

[laricb]

there is simply no arguing for the case of caribbean students and I am one. If you can go to a DO school or MD in US, it is without a doubt the best route. However, I am applying to residencies this year and am getting lots of interviews. But they're in FM. Sure, they are from great universities, but it is extremely difficult to match into anything other than FM, IM, OB/GYN, PEDs. For example, I have step 1 of :225 and step 2 of 245 with an EM rotation at Mayo. I have applied to EM residencies this year in addition to FM. I have gotten 8 rejections and 1 wait list. American students at low tier schools with my same stats have 12 IV's. And like previous posters have said, this is only going to get worse. Too many schools are expanding and new schools are opening. In 5-7 years, the window for Carib's may be over. So for those of you starting now, you may want to rethink it. It will be a rough rough road. And forget it if you get <220 on either of the steps. anyway, good luck, just know what you are getting into.

Which Carib Med school did you attend

 

[peppy]

I don't feel threatened by Caribbean grads. I am personal friends with a couple of Caribb grads.
I just think that being $200,000 in debt and unable to get a residency to allow you to pay it back is a very sad position to be in. That kind of debt can be devastating. I hope that people consider the risks before accepting a spot at a Caribbean school.

If you want to go Caribb regardless of the risk, at least try to think realistically about what your plan will be for how you will manage if you are one of the unlucky ones who can't get a residency. Don't dismiss the risk just because you're going to SGU or Ross. Even if most people from your school match, if you are the one person who doesn't match, you still need a plan for what you'll do.

 

[scocoh19]

Doubt that. Check their match lists.

 

[Medstart108]

I don't feel threatened by Caribbean grads. I am personal friends with a couple of Caribb grads.
I just think that being $200,000 in debt and unable to get a residency to allow you to pay it back is a very sad position to be in. That kind of debt can be devastating. I hope that people consider the risks before accepting a spot at a Caribbean school.

If you want to go Caribb regardless of the risk, at least try to think realistically about what your plan will be for how you will manage if you are one of the unlucky ones who can't get a residency. Don't dismiss the risk just because you're going to SGU or Ross. Even if most people from your school match, if you are the one person who doesn't match, you still need a plan for what you'll do.

Theres always going to be one person who doesn't match... In the Caribbean its a much larger number who don't match.

Think about the medical school system as a filter sorting minerals from water.

The US MD schools are the first filter and they have larger holes so only take the largest chunks.
The US DO schools are the second filter and they take the medium chunks
The Caribbean Top tier schools are the third filter are a finer filter and they take the smallest chunks.

What the Caribbean is getting is mostly water with fewer minerals. The best will get into residency. The rest fall straight through.

I really just view the Caribbean as a 2nd chance. If you fail the Caribbean you don't deserve to become a doctor period.

Its a completely individual thing. If you put a HMS potential student in the Caribbean they would very likely rise to the top of their class and still match, maybe at a lower tier program because of the med school name bias, but they would probably match very well.

If you take a Carib student who isn't motivated, threw him in HMS, they'd be the only person to fail the Step 1 repeatedly. You can think of it as putting a small chunk of metal through a big sieve repeatedly, the small chunk will fall through every time.

What matters is making sure the Carib gives you ALL the opportunities to succeed. If the ingredients are given and you mess up the cooking well thats your own fault and not the fault of the Caribbean.

 

[Skip Intro]

Theres always going to be one person who doesn't match... In the Caribbean its a much larger number who don't match.

Think about the medical school system as a filter sorting minerals from water.

The US MD schools are the first filter and they have larger holes so only take the largest chunks.
The US DO schools are the second filter and they take the medium chunks
The Caribbean Top tier schools are the third filter are a finer filter and they take the smallest chunks.

What the Caribbean is getting is mostly water with fewer minerals. The best will get into residency. The rest fall straight through.

I really just view the Caribbean as a 2nd chance. If you fail the Caribbean you don't deserve to become a doctor period.

Its a completely individual thing. If you put a HMS potential student in the Caribbean they would very likely rise to the top of their class and still match, maybe at a lower tier program because of the med school name bias, but they would probably match very well.

If you take a Carib student who isn't motivated, threw him in HMS, they'd be the only person to fail the Step 1 repeatedly. You can think of it as putting a small chunk of metal through a big sieve repeatedly, the small chunk will fall through every time.

What matters is making sure the Carib gives you ALL the opportunities to succeed. If the ingredients are given and you mess up the cooking well thats your own fault and not the fault of the Caribbean.

I also generally agree with this.

-Skip

 

[Sportfreund]

It looks like both SGU and Ross are increasing their number of residencies and I think Ross is even buying a hospital. However I'm weary of both schools. SGU seems top notch but is extremely pricey which excludes many.

Ross has an infamously poor attrition rate and an island location with a bad rep. I think these schools can work out for a lot of people and the residency spots are a big pro but with Ross especially, it's a bit risky. The problem with these top 4 schools is that they keep their residency rates high and in order to do that, they flunk out a tonne of students including ones who are good but not great which is a real shame.

 

[bretonnia]

It looks like both SGU and Ross are increasing their number of residencies and I think Ross is even buying a hospital.

Where did you hear that Ross was buying their own hospital?

 

[Skip Intro]

Where did you hear that Ross was buying their own hospital?

Yes, would like a confirmation on that.

Several years ago, Ross was considering opening a campus in Wyoming. Their model was going to be the same as it is now. When the LCME said, "You can't do it without out going through us," they dropped the idea.

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/jun/27/news/mn-50618

-Skip