Spirituality and psych?

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scubadoc78

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Time magazine recently had several articles about the effects of prayer/belief/etc which I thought were interesting...

1. Anybody felt your spiritual/religious/philosophical beliefs challenged by your career in psychology/psychiatry? Have your beliefs evolved?

2. Does free will really exist? Is the soul 'real?' E.O. Wilson makes some compelling arguments in his books. Do we assume free will exists in forensic psychiatry when assessing intent or sanity?

3. Psychosis is a defined as a 'failure in perception of reality,' yet philosophically no one has defined 'reality.' Clearly, philosophy isn't at the front of our minds while working with patients, but it is a provocative question, no?

4. I'm currently working on a senior elective project with a professor trying to distinguish reported religious/mystical experience from psychopathology. Do any of you believe there is a difference?

Hope these are re-posted questions! Thanks!

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Time magazine recently had several articles about the effects of prayer/belief/etc which I thought were interesting...

1. Anybody felt your spiritual/religious/philosophical beliefs challenged by your career in psychology/psychiatry? Have your beliefs evolved?

I am a deeply spiritual Christian. Accepting Darwinism in college was probably the most earth-shattering thing for me on my journey to psychiatry, however indirect the relationship may be. But to answer your question, yes, my beliefs have evolved slightly since choosing psychiatry. I anticipate they will change slightly throughout my residency training (find out where i match Thursday!) and beyond. But I can tell you now that I will NEVER change my mind about Jesus Christ and His lordship over my life. I have had too many personal experiences with Him and revelation from Him to go any other way. (I guess that answers #4 because I am not, nor have I ever been, psychotic. I cannot guarantee, however, that I won't be psychotic in the future... :laugh:)

2. Does free will really exist? Is the soul 'real?' E.O. Wilson makes some compelling arguments in his books. Do we assume free will exists in forensic psychiatry when assessing intent or sanity?

at this point, science can only take us so far. as for wilson, have not read anything by him. as for the forensic question, i have no idea.

3. Psychosis is a defined as a 'failure in perception of reality,' yet philosophically no one has defined 'reality.' Clearly, philosophy isn't at the front of our minds while working with patients, but it is a provocative question, no?

according to the matrix, no one really knows what reality is anyway. be sure you row gently down the stream... definitely good questions. i think the reason no one's answering is because no one really knows!

4. I'm currently working on a senior elective project with a professor trying to distinguish reported religious/mystical experience from psychopathology. Do any of you believe there is a difference?
consider this an emphatic "YES!!!"

that said, it is next to impossible to determine whether someone's "mystical" experience was real or not because you will never be that person.
 
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The PD of the residency program at my med school was quite devout, and he was very upfront that, if he told us what he believed in his spiritual life, we'd all have him committed. By various definitions, I'd call him an excellent psychiatrist and educator.

And he had the good sense to keep the more mystical points of his life separate from his decidedly secular profession. I would advise others to do the same.

You're bound to wind up at least partially lonely in this profession, and probably eventually at church. Being a psychiatrist and a devout Christian is just asking for one consecutive existential crisis after another. That is, if you're actually thoughtful. Your posts suggest that you are. There are plenty of people who do not feel the need to reconcile their doublethink.

There are much worse things than having consecutive existential crises, though.
 
Time magazine recently had several articles about the effects of prayer/belief/etc which I thought were interesting...

1. Anybody felt your spiritual/religious/philosophical beliefs challenged by your career in psychology/psychiatry? Have your beliefs evolved?

Not particularly no. Hinduism holds that there is a very strong connection between mind, body, and soul. It doesn't speak much on psychosis, but as far as existential crises, mood, concentration, and cognition, well one could argue that hinduism/buddhism deals more with these subjects than anything else. Perhaps somewhat uniquely, they deal with these subjects beyond just one's relationship with god (i.e. they don't only revolve around the idea that through faith you will find inner peace).

I have found that religion influenced my decision to go into psych precisely because hinduism and buddhism place so much focus on 'getting your mind right' through right thinking, right action, introspection, and soundness of body.

And of course I'm a huge mindfulness meditation junky and plan to research it in my academic career.

2. Does free will really exist? Is the soul 'real?' E.O. Wilson makes some compelling arguments in his books. Do we assume free will exists in forensic psychiatry when assessing intent or sanity?

Lol, I've written something like 50,000 words on this subject (all unpublished lol). I don't believe in free will, and I don't believe in determinism. I take my approach to conscious will from the study of quantum physics, chaos, and the mathematical modelling I did in a former life. If we accept quantum physics we accept that the universe at its root is fundamentally probabilistic. If we accept what we've learned from attempting to model choatic systems in nature, it's that there may be higher levels of order despite disorder at smaller levels. And that natural systems may be inherently noisy. Basically, I don't believe in free will because this physical world and these physical bodies and physical brains do place constraints on us. But I dont believe in determinism because these external and internal changes in weight, so to speak, only affect likelihoods.

blah.

3. Psychosis is a defined as a 'failure in perception of reality,' yet philosophically no one has defined 'reality.' Clearly, philosophy isn't at the front of our minds while working with patients, but it is a provocative question, no?

I've talked before about the similarity between states of mind that meditation practitioners across cultures achieve to what is often seen in so-called 'disorganized schizophrenia'. I've had the opportunity to experience interaction wtih several disorganized schizophrenics and continue to be amazed by the striking similarities. Especially as, being an avid meditator myself, I've experienced states of mind that I would communicate in a fashion similar to the way they express what they see.

I think an important distinction between what a meditator experiences and what a psychotic might experience is in how much weight we give to what we experience in such a state and that we recognize that it isn't the way 'the world' experiences it.

The problem of 'reality' is a thorny one. Whether we talk of the restricted visual range we have, or the fact that our hearing is on a logarithmic scale, or simply the vagaries of the human sensory system, it is clear that even first order perceptual inefficiencies exist such that it's doubtful that anyone can experience reality. Ultimately even the things we take for granted, like short wave-length light looking red, are due to the way we interpret sensory information.

A synesthete may interpret what we call 'sound' as 'vision', but it doesn't flow that just because they are in the minority that their representation is the incorrect one and ours is the right one.

A psychotic hears voices telling himi to kill. Someone else kills without hearing the voices. But perhaps they are both representations of the same inner drive, right or wrong, to perform the action.

Just because there is a 'consensus' on reality doesn't mean that people who perceive it differently is wrong.

4. I'm currently working on a senior elective project with a professor trying to distinguish reported religious/mystical experience from psychopathology. Do any of you believe there is a difference?

Hope these are re-posted questions! Thanks!

See above. I think perhaps one distinction is that people who experiencce religious or mystical experiences in some way are wanting them to happen often enough. Even the ones who say they didn't, often times were searching for a sign of god, and it came. Or they felt empty, and it came. Whatever. Same thing.

I've always been interested in the idea of stressors leading to psychotic/manic breaks, and of the prodromal period of withdrawal. Its not too dissimilar fromt he process by which one first feels something wrong and then seeks out spiritual epiphany.

Perhaps the difference is that those who experience a religious epiphany are actively seeking one, whereas those who experience psychosis are NOT actively seeking it, yet both are driven to it by the same stressors.

*shrug*
 
Well, not exactly the same topic, but I got a mother of a patient right now who is trying to get me to advise the patient to use a technique where the patient is supposed to breathe through one nostril at a time.

As you might've figured, I've found no scienfitic basis for what she's trying to get me to do with her daughter, and well, ahem, not a lot of scientific basis for a lot of things the mother's trying to get me to do with this case in general.

I'm trying to keep an open mind on this one so far, but this has been a bit frustrating.
 
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Well, not exactly the same topic, but I got a mother of a patient right now who is trying to get me to advise the patient to use a technique where the patient is supposed to breathe through one nostril at a time as some type of mental health benefit. She said its a yoga technique.

As you might've figured, I've found no scienfitic basis for what she's trying to get me to do with her daughter, and well, ahem, not a lot of scientific basis for a lot of things the mother's trying to get me to do with this case in general. (e.g the patient vomited and the mother calls me up and tells me its a stomach virus with no valid reason to back her claims). She's also intrusively trying to control the treatment. The mother's admitted that she has a mental illness, and does not use medication to treat it, instead using spiritual therapies which she will not divulge to me.

I'm starting to wonder if the mother's mental illness is affecting her jugdement on this case.

hate to continue the thread off-topic but I unfortunately get tagged as the go-to guy to talk to people who are into spiritual and herbal stuff, most likely because i'm a spritualish herbalish nutjob myself. And I find that most of these people are distrustful of modern medicine for reasons that at their root are valid concerns that frequently get brushed off by their doctors.

It may gall but meeting them halfway often works wonders. It helps that i have cred as a 'natural remedy' guy because i usually know as much or more about the stuff than the patients, but by simply validating their beliefs in the small ways you can while being true to yourself (yogic techniques do have evidence for stress-relief, BP control, and anxiety--some in Indian journals of dubious credibility but still--for instance...so you can say 'yeah yoga can help with mental health', and many people do find solace in herbals, placebo or not so you can say 'yeah certain herbal remedies do make a lot of people feel better'), you build a bridge. From that point, where you don't deny the possibility that it may help somewhat, you can build on the importance of EBM.

When herbals conflict with the use of medicine or they're believed to be dangerous, its a bit tougher, but yeah.
 
i'm a spritualish herbalish nutjob myself.

As am I. I take green tea, grape seed extract, drink some occassional ginseng etc.

But there's a difference between giving fish oil (which has several studies showing it has mental health benefits) and telling someone to stick their penis in a live beehive to cure their cancer.

Right now, I'm trying to be diplomatic, and trying to cater to some of the things the mother wants without hurting the evidenced based approaches on this case.

This actually is another thing you got to deal with in chronic-long term units--over enmeshed familes. On a short term unit, you're sure to see them, but you'll only have the patient for a few weeks, then they're off to the long term unit or they're discharged. On a LT unit, you're going to have to deal with these families on a long term basis. This is my 3rd case so far. My first one as an attending, the family wanted to talk to me about 4 hrs a week, and brought up every questionable to completely "out there" practice in the book to try on their son. They were actually quite surprised I was able to address their questions--because I'm into herbal stuff myself, and have actually read several papers on their use in medicine.

But when you got to see 24 patients a week in 40 hrs (with several of those hours in meetings, treatment teams, dictations etc), spending about 5 hrs specifically on 1 patient really cuts into time. E.g. the family wants to know if Resveratrol may help their son's schizophrenia, and discusses this with me for about 3 hrs. I've actually ended up spending about 5 hrs a week overtime without pay because of situations like this, and I'm currently getting flack from the management over it.
 
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...You're bound to wind up at least partially lonely in this profession, and probably eventually at church. Being a psychiatrist and a devout Christian is just asking for one consecutive existential crisis after another. That is, if you're actually thoughtful. Your posts suggest that you are. There are plenty of people who do not feel the need to reconcile their doublethink.

There are much worse things than having consecutive existential crises, though.

Being a psychiatrist and a devout ANYTHING is likely to trigger consecutive existential crises. It's called Growth.

How much easier it would be to just drink the Kool-aid and pass the meds...
 
I'd love to hear more responses with regards to the original posted questions as well. And to toss out a couple more as well:

1) I would think that psychiatric training couldn't help but challenge philosophical/spiritual/religious thoughts. After all, isn't a value system, conception of how people change, and, as ScubaDoc mentioned, definition of reality and "wellness" inherent to psychiatry?

2) Has anyone read T. M. Luhrmann's Of Two Minds? I think it raises interesting questions along these same veins. How do psychiatrists resolve the duality of biomedical determinism inherent in the psychopharmacologal approach and the sort of free-will/agency approach inherent in psychotherapy?
 
I'd love to hear more responses with regards to the original posted questions as well. And to toss out a couple more as well:

1) I would think that psychiatric training couldn't help but challenge philosophical/spiritual/religious thoughts...

I would think that any science-related training would by definition be challenging to supernatural thought.
 
Questions like these are what made psychiatry so compelling for me-- they get at the heart of both reality and personhood. I hope it's all right if I answer, as I'm not going into psych.

First, my background-- I think this is mandatory disclosure to answer this question.

I belong to a relatively obscure sect of Eastern Christianity. We place a great deal of emphasis on experiencing the divine and on Mystery-- this is greatly emphasized relative to rational, cognitive approaches to faith. There is no Summa Theologica for the Eastern Church.

Second, my thoughts.

I'm an absolutist about truth (in the sense that I don't believe in indeterminate truth-states: something is either true or not true). Religious claims are either true or not true.

if you can accept the epistemological testimony of the >90% of humanity who believe in a divine being and in the supernatural, you can posit that they have some direct experience with that being/the supernatural. That is, their "belief" isn't simply belief (as in, I believe it will rain tomorrow or I believe the winning lottery numbers will be 2-45-7) but rather justified based on experience. Whether or not it meets criteria to be knowledge depends on the truth state-- which I think is unknowable, personally. (Hence "faith" and all that). Some philosophers of religion have posited the existence of a separate sensory apparatus by which we apperceive the divine. Just as the eye sees and the ear hears, this "sensus divinitatis" receives information about the spiritual world. Many people who have had mystical experiences cannot really describe them in terms of the regular five senses, so I find this idea very appealing.

I believe psychosis is a problem of both sensory integration, memory and cognition. It's possible that such a large proportion of psychotic delusions are religious in nature because the experience of the divine-- in addition to the experience of color, sight, sound, sexual attraction, what have you-- is processed abnormally. The sensus divinitatis, if you will, has gone haywire.

And I don't think psychiatrists who happen to be religious need any more help keeping their private convictions separate from their work than do the psychiatrists who are not. I think that is it impossible not to be biased when considering these matters. Even if you consider yourself extremely open-minded and inclusive (as in "there are multiple paths to truth" or "we all experience things differently") you hold that belief (there are multiple paths) and will necessarily not see eye to eye with someone-- a colleague or a patient-- who has a specific, rigid interpretation of the truth. So I think it's a false dichotomy to paint those who are religious (of any stripe) as "biased" and the arreligious as somehow objective.
 
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If anyone wants to know more about spirituality and psychiatry, IM me, Ive been a part of project investigating spirituality and severe mental illness. I also have done a lot of my own reading on the subject and have good resources/sources/websites for people who are inclined towards this topic.
 
I consider myself religious. I hope to finish my residency in the remaining 3 years... There is nothing wrong with being a psychiatrist and religious. That's why it's called "Faith" not "Science". At a certain point you have to realize the difference. A faith that is not criticized often and without doubts is a blind faith. You need to realize that there are those who wont make that distinction and hopefully you are better than that. You also need to lead by example. The world needs you to protect itself from some of it's highly self destructive thoughts... realize that you can only help those who need help or are severly in bad shape... the rest is not up to you and it's up to the individual. :welcome:

I hope I did not ramble too much with my philosophy.
 
Not particularly no. Hinduism holds that there is a very strong connection between mind, body, and soul. It doesn't speak much on psychosis, but as far as existential crises, mood, concentration, and cognition, well one could argue that hinduism/buddhism deals more with these subjects than anything else. Perhaps somewhat uniquely, they deal with these subjects beyond just one's relationship with god (i.e. they don't only revolve around the idea that through faith you will find inner peace).

I have found that religion influenced my decision to go into psych precisely because hinduism and buddhism place so much focus on 'getting your mind right' through right thinking, right action, introspection, and soundness of body.

And of course I'm a huge mindfulness meditation junky and plan to research it in my academic career.



Lol, I've written something like 50,000 words on this subject (all unpublished lol). I don't believe in free will, and I don't believe in determinism. I take my approach to conscious will from the study of quantum physics, chaos, and the mathematical modelling I did in a former life. If we accept quantum physics we accept that the universe at its root is fundamentally probabilistic. If we accept what we've learned from attempting to model choatic systems in nature, it's that there may be higher levels of order despite disorder at smaller levels. And that natural systems may be inherently noisy. Basically, I don't believe in free will because this physical world and these physical bodies and physical brains do place constraints on us. But I dont believe in determinism because these external and internal changes in weight, so to speak, only affect likelihoods.

blah.



I've talked before about the similarity between states of mind that meditation practitioners across cultures achieve to what is often seen in so-called 'disorganized schizophrenia'. I've had the opportunity to experience interaction wtih several disorganized schizophrenics and continue to be amazed by the striking similarities. Especially as, being an avid meditator myself, I've experienced states of mind that I would communicate in a fashion similar to the way they express what they see.

I think an important distinction between what a meditator experiences and what a psychotic might experience is in how much weight we give to what we experience in such a state and that we recognize that it isn't the way 'the world' experiences it.

The problem of 'reality' is a thorny one. Whether we talk of the restricted visual range we have, or the fact that our hearing is on a logarithmic scale, or simply the vagaries of the human sensory system, it is clear that even first order perceptual inefficiencies exist such that it's doubtful that anyone can experience reality. Ultimately even the things we take for granted, like short wave-length light looking red, are due to the way we interpret sensory information.

A synesthete may interpret what we call 'sound' as 'vision', but it doesn't flow that just because they are in the minority that their representation is the incorrect one and ours is the right one.

A psychotic hears voices telling himi to kill. Someone else kills without hearing the voices. But perhaps they are both representations of the same inner drive, right or wrong, to perform the action.

Just because there is a 'consensus' on reality doesn't mean that people who perceive it differently is wrong.



See above. I think perhaps one distinction is that people who experiencce religious or mystical experiences in some way are wanting them to happen often enough. Even the ones who say they didn't, often times were searching for a sign of god, and it came. Or they felt empty, and it came. Whatever. Same thing.

I've always been interested in the idea of stressors leading to psychotic/manic breaks, and of the prodromal period of withdrawal. Its not too dissimilar fromt he process by which one first feels something wrong and then seeks out spiritual epiphany.

Perhaps the difference is that those who experience a religious epiphany are actively seeking one, whereas those who experience psychosis are NOT actively seeking it, yet both are driven to it by the same stressors.

*shrug*

Puff-Puff, Give, Dude.
 
Well, not exactly the same topic, but I got a mother of a patient right now who is trying to get me to advise the patient to use a technique where the patient is supposed to breathe through one nostril at a time.

As you might've figured, I've found no scienfitic basis for what she's trying to get me to do with her daughter, and well, ahem, not a lot of scientific basis for a lot of things the mother's trying to get me to do with this case in general.

I'm trying to keep an open mind on this one so far, but this has been a bit frustrating.

That's alternative nostril breathing in yoga. Here's one link...might be more out there.

http://www.yogasite.com/research1.html
 
It's only 10 day follow up on a sample size of 25 per group. It's easy to get a type I error. Not to mention there is no true followup. If they tested them after doing this for one month then tested again in 1 year... now we are talking.. heck I'd start doing it myself... but I would like a way larger size sample.
 
Agree.

Self controlled breathing can lead to some benefits such control over anxiety. That's been showed in studies.

As for this spatial left vs right brain thingee, I would common sense wise think not. The air goes down the same trachea. There's nothing going on with left vs right brain function that somehow controls one side vs the other with breathing. Its not like the brain-on one side gets more or less O2 or blood, nor that there's different sided processing, or just one set of lungs is used, which is only connected to one nostril. One has to cover one's nostril which is controlled by the hand. If there were some type of benefit, I'd suspect its more along the lines of controlled & self aware breathing, not really with breathing with one nostril.

But you know what? I'm a scientist. Show me enough data from enough good studies and I'll yield to it.

But let's get back to this one nostril breathing. Let's even assume it does what the study says it does--improve "spatial" & "verbal" cognitive tasks. Hey, if it won't hurt, I don't mind it. I'm just not going to advocate it based simply on this, unless there's more data to back it up, nor want someone to dominate the therapy based on this over evidenced based practice, nor spend hours talking about this topic with them.

And the person's spatial or verbal cognition aren't the problem either. Its the audio hallucinations telling her to kill people, and she sometimes listens to them.
 
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1. This thread rocks. This sort of thing is what drew me to psychiatry... reality, perception, self, free will....

2. alternate nostril breathing... I didnt read the article that was posted above... but from what I know... If you put the back of your hand below your nose, you'll note that at any given time one of your nostrils is dominant. Sometimes you might even have awareness of when the dominant nare switches... especially when you have nasal congestion. So theoretically, alternate nostril breathing forces you to recruit your entire upper airway, which is normally working at less than full capacity.... extrapolate from that what you will.
 
I think psychiatry is in many cases in opposition to spirituality. Spirituality in a very real sense is only perceived in the brain through a series of chemical reactions (cognitions). Psychiatry's practices of drugging, brain ablation, and seizure induction (ECT), disable or eradicate parts of the brain. So, I would say that they are at odds with each other. I'm not religious myself, but doesn't God say that the body is a temple?
 
Sometimes you might even have awareness of when the dominant nare switches... especially when you have nasal congestion. So theoretically, alternate nostril breathing forces you to recruit your entire upper airway, which is normally working at less than full capacity.... extrapolate from that what you will.

Interesting food for thought. Hey so long as someone can come up with good & reproducible evidence, I'll be opened minded to it. Think of the doctors that said accupuncture did nothing at all.

On another note, I have had several cases where I was able to work quite comfortably & hand in hand with someone's own spiritual & religious beliefs. Its been something that gives the doctor the human dimension that patients need.

It was only getting to be a problem in some of the cases I mentioned above because the family wanted something that wasn't evidenced based to dominate the treatment over the non-evidenced based (edit-meant to write "evidenced based"), and the person was in a situation where they were dangerous to self or others.
 
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I will try to not make this too random--but I'm having difficulty breathing out of either nostril at the moment, and I've also just finished my second Guinness in honor of one of my favorite spiritual figures. :luck:

We strive for a scientific basis in psychiatry, but no matter how much we know about the molecules, the reality is that people don't think and act according to our reductionistic expectations. Tell a sobbing depressed person that their serotonergic neurotransmission is out of whack and prepare to be met with a blank stare. They want comfort, empathy, understanding, perhaps a sense of meaning along with their chemical adjustments. People are spiritual beings, in that they understand and talk about their lives in spiritual terms. They see their growth and development, struggles, setbacks, moral failings and successes all in spiritual terms. To a large extent, even in the most scientifically-minded, they see relief from their suffering in spiritual terms. For all its limitations, AA and its talk of spiritual transformation has helped more people get sober than Antabuse, Campral, and naltrexone combined.

One of the joys and challenges of psychiatry is seeing how this all fits together. The Bio, the Psycho, the Social, AND the Spiritual. It is not unscientific or unpsychological to consider how a person's understanding and experience of the transcendent might influence their handling of emotional distress, or how they became distressed in the first place. William James told us this a hundred years ago! It's been awhile since I read him, but I think the take-home would be--"Yep, people are religious, and they're religious in different ways. Some of it's good. Some of it's crazy."

So how can we tell the difference between religious experience and psychopathology, as the OP asked? Maybe it's a purely utilitarian distinction--one voice brings hope, positive interpersonal connections, motivation to help others; the other commands self destruction, mistrust, and despair. You know the tree by its fruit, as the Man said.

I think about these things a fair amount--I hope because my own spiritual beliefs in some part inform and inspire my actions toward others, and not because I need validation that they are not pathological. I've shared with some of you privately, and am happy to do so further.
 
Can I come work with you :D
 
I will try to not make this too random--but I'm having difficulty breathing out of either nostril at the moment, and I've also just finished my second Guinness in honor of one of my favorite spiritual figures. :luck:

.


Thanks for that one...

very nice post

I had a patient who was hospitalized for an acute manic episode... but interestingly, his complaints were of depression. On exam, the psychiatrist asked him what he THINKS is causing his problems... He started telling us about serotonin and norepi. Does that count for insight?

Yep, Dr Whopper, but in this case, I dont know if you need to be "openminded" to it. I dont think you have to buy into what your patient is doing. (particularly in this case, nothing seems to be dangerous) Even if there isnt a shred of evidence to support these practices, it might just help you to know what the patient THINKS they are doing for themself. And fortunately in this case, I think you can support alternate nostril breathing on the basis of an outside-in, behavior-becomes-thought, anxiety reduction technique.
 
Thanks for that one...

very nice post

I had a patient who was hospitalized for an acute manic episode... but interestingly, his complaints were of depression. On exam, the psychiatrist asked him what he THINKS is causing his problems... He started telling us about serotonin and norepi. Does that count for insight?

Yep, Dr Whopper, but in this case, I dont know if you need to be "openminded" to it. I dont think you have to buy into what your patient is doing. (particularly in this case, nothing seems to be dangerous) Even if there isnt a shred of evidence to support these practices, it might just help you to know what the patient THINKS they are doing for themself. And fortunately in this case, I think you can support alternate nostril breathing on the basis of an outside-in, behavior-becomes-thought, anxiety reduction technique.

Couldn't God have created molecules, medications, ECT and psychiatrists?
 
1. Anybody felt your spiritual/religious/philosophical beliefs challenged by your career in psychology/psychiatry? Have your beliefs evolved?

I am a reborn Christian, and although intensity of my religious dedication (but not the faith itself) has fluctuated considerably over the years, my faith has remained unaffected by my career choice. Incidentally, I was baptized the same year I started in medical school.


3. Psychosis is a defined as a 'failure in perception of reality,' yet philosophically no one has defined 'reality.' Clearly, philosophy isn't at the front of our minds while working with patients, but it is a provocative question, no?
IMHO, reality is defined by consensus. So, whatever the majority agree upon is reality. But, this is of course debatable.

4. I'm currently working on a senior elective project with a professor trying to distinguish reported religious/mystical experience from psychopathology. Do any of you believe there is a difference?
To add to comments above, I would say that if the reported experiences do not interfere with the person's normal level of functioning, I would probably class them as normal religious experiences. If a believer attempts to walk on water or insists on sharing a bread loaf between 2000 people (unless he is Messiah, of course), I would probably consider it pathological.

P.S. Happy to be back on the board - and even more happy to announce that my recent periods of absence were due to Babypsychdoc Twerp Number 2 - who arrived recently and is happily nursing as I am typing this. :love: (not that this has anything to do with either psychiatry in general or this thread in particular).
 
Couldn't God have created molecules, medications, ECT and psychiatrists?

yes, as the tooth fairey could have too....guess that would make her/him God by whatever definition makes God the creator of molecules, etc.
 
I am a reborn Christian, and although intensity of my religious dedication (but not the faith itself) has fluctuated considerably over the years, my faith has remained unaffected by my career choice. Incidentally, I was baptized the same year I started in medical school.


IMHO, reality is defined by consensus. So, whatever the majority agree upon is reality. But, this is of course debatable.

To add to comments above, I would say that if the reported experiences do not interfere with the person's normal level of functioning, I would probably class them as normal religious experiences. If a believer attempts to walk on water or insists on sharing a bread loaf between 2000 people (unless he is Messiah, of course), I would probably consider it pathological.

P.S. Happy to be back on the board - and even more happy to announce that my recent periods of absence were due to Babypsychdoc Twerp Number 2 - who arrived recently and is happily nursing as I am typing this. :love: (not that this has anything to do with either psychiatry in general or this thread in particular).

Congratulations BabyPsychDoc and BabyPsychDocBaby...
 
I would think that any science-related training would by definition be challenging to supernatural thought.

Perhaps. But not particularly. I particularly like Pope John Paul II's take on the matter: why would any of the faithful fear to uncover the laws of God's universe?

I've never found any real conflict with my faith and my interest in science. In many ways, I think they intertwine and add layers of meaning upon one another.

Science really has no beginning or end outside of God from my point of reference. Cosmology becomes massively contradictive when you throw in heat decay, otherwise, for instance.

I, on the other hand, put a lot more stake in history than some. Something that happened about the year 33 AD certainly got a lot of people interested, and not from the typical origins that change history, either. Perhaps not the place for that debate, but I've found my spiritual life only meshes with my interest in psychiatry.
 
Even if there isnt a shred of evidence to support these practices, it might just help you to know what the patient THINKS they are doing for themself

I don't think you understand. The emphasis of nostril breathing was being emphasized over the use of meds.

Now of course, if you have a schizophrenic patient that has raped minors (due to psychosis), attempted to kill other patients, and herself due to psychosis, you could of course allow spiritual practices that don't interfere with evidenced based treatment.

However I think you would agree that you wouldn't want the nostril breathing instead of meds, which was what was suggested to me that was pretty much causing the tension between the family & myself.

Add to that, respecting someone's spiritual beliefs is a good thing, but being told to advocate a specific spiritual practice, you're walking on thin ice. What you tell your patient is on the understanding that this is medical practice, in accordance to the standard of care, and based on good faith. If the mother asks me to tell the daughter to use this technique, I am doing so as her doctor. I can't in good faith claim to give her this information as her doctor & claim it is medically sound. I can tell her to try if she likes, that I wouldn't have anything against it, and that if it helps her fine, but I can't say its sound medical practice, especially within the context of being used instead of medication.

I have had several patients and/or families where they wanted me to incorporate or be respectful of their spiritual beliefs, and I didn't have to consider that the spiritual side may be a problem. It is somewhat troubling to me to see that this could become a problem--because it can be seen as a form of disrespect to something the family sees as important.

And I'm also developing a conspiracy theory that this may have been why she was transferred to my unit. She's been transferred 3x so far and I am her 4th doctor in only a few months of inpatient. I've seen some patients never be transferred for over 20 years. Hospital politics-when units try to transfer a patient, they often try to get rid of the one that is causing the most amount of counter-transference to the treatment team. You'd be surprised to see some of the dealing I've heard between units "no way!, don't give us that one--she's the one that jumped over the nurse's station & pooped on the shift report!"
 
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oh gawd

no, youre right.

If the mother is asking you to "reccomend" this as a psychiatrist, thats not cool.
 
Perhaps. But not particularly. I particularly like Pope John Paul II's take on the matter: why would any of the faithful fear to uncover the laws of God's universe?

I've never found any real conflict with my faith and my interest in science. In many ways, I think they intertwine and add layers of meaning upon one another.

I agree that the Catholic Church, particularly during John Paul II's tenure, has come a long way in finding accomodation for scientific facts (e.g. the position that the Theory of Evolution is not neccesarly inconsistent with the general teachings in the Bible), and is certainly more rational than the general postions of American Fundamentalists who insist on a literal translation of the Bible. I get concerned when I hear statements such as the Church being at the forefront of the fight against HIV in Africa because it preaches abstinence, and condoms are not effective in said fight.

I, on the other hand, put a lot more stake in history than some. Something that happened about the year 33 AD certainly got a lot of people interested, and not from the typical origins that change history, either. Perhaps not the place for that debate, but I've found my spiritual life only meshes with my interest in psychiatry.

Muslims will tell you that something of similar or greater historical significance happened later than 33AD. Are they wrong, and the 33ADers right? both right?
 
You're both wrong.

Something happened in India, about 500 BC, which changed the course of history.
 
You're both wrong.

Something happened in India, about 500 BC, which changed the course of history.

I have no problem with that either. how about the year of the Big Bang..now there's some history changing stuff...
 
I have no problem with that either. how about the year of the Big Bang..now there's some history changing stuff...

That was around 4004 BCE, right? ;)
Assuming one believes that history has any inherent meaningfulness at all...

(BTW--this is now becoming a thread about RELIGION as opposed to SPIRITUALITY.)
 
That was around 4004 BCE, right? ;)
Assuming one believes that history has any inherent meaningfulness at all...

(BTW--this is now becoming a thread about RELIGION as opposed to SPIRITUALITY.)

Agreed....maybe someone could articulate the difference between spirituality and religion, and we can put this bad boy to bed.

Certainly the Big Bang had to occur 5,000 years before the guy from the Iron or Bronze Age said it all began....who am I to question this?
 
That was around 4004 BCE, right? ;)
Assuming one believes that history has any inherent meaningfulness at all...

(BTW--this is now becoming a thread about RELIGION as opposed to SPIRITUALITY.)

Not really a valid comparison. The Hebrew scriptures you're referencing weren't written from a culture with historical emphases you see in the later day Roman cultures. Hence you have two creation stories without the bat of an eye.

And I welcome a thread on either. In my estimation, separating the two is a fool's game and a deception at best.
 
I get concerned when I hear statements such as the Church being at the forefront of the fight against HIV in Africa because it preaches abstinence, and condoms are not effective in said fight.

No way around it. It's at the forefront. Twenty-five percent of the world's AIDs patients have their sole source of Western medicine through the Church. Your point is valid, but there's really no one else doing anything.


Muslims will tell you that something of similar or greater historical significance happened later than 33AD. Are they wrong, and the 33ADers right? both right?

We all have our own gleanings from history. If you buy into the fact that the Prophet Muhammad directly received the word of God, sure. I think the above poster was nothing that Jesus of Nazareth wasn't exactly a warlord (e.g. Islam) or a prince (e.g. Buddha), but rather a lower-class individual and that change arose through the peasentry and not the ruling class. Certainly an atypical shift in history, no matter the epoch.

In the example of Christ, you have something no other faith system exhibits. Take it if you will. If not, so it goes....
 
Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion.

You think? When you start to go back and explain your passage through various lives and the end goal of extinguishing the self over the course of lifetimes, I think you're pretty solidly in religious territory. Adding Bodhisattvas and the like into the equation certainly does.
There's a pretty consistent set of symbols, practices, lexicons and rituals associated with Buddhism that are universally recognizeable, as well. I've heard this argument a lot; I've just never bought it, at least as how it relates to practice.
 
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We all have our own gleanings from history. If you buy into the fact that the Prophet Muhammad directly received the word of God, sure. I think the above poster was nothing that Jesus of Nazareth wasn't exactly a warlord (e.g. Islam) or a prince (e.g. Buddha), but rather a lower-class individual and that change arose through the peasentry and not the ruling class. Certainly an atypical shift in history, no matter the epoch.

In the example of Christ, you have something no other faith system exhibits. Take it if you will. If not, so it goes....


Everything is atypical. Buddha was a prince, and gave up the throne to live as a nomad... how often does that happen?

Now, a carpenter who thinks he's the son of God, and says nice things, and gives away his belongings random people? I took care of him on inpatient psych.

Its all spin.

Oh, and by the way... the example of Christ... dont get me started...
You do NOT have something that no other faith system exhibits.

What you have is in EVERY other faith system. There is nothing unique.

Actually, the story of Christ has striking similarities (both in the biography, and the associated allegories) to a story told from 3000 BC.... the story of Krishna. So, strikingly similar, that some argue that the second story is just a re-make of the first.

Just ask those christmas tree worshiping Pagans who exchange gifts to celebrate the Winter Solstice around December 22nd. Oh wait you cant because they were exterminated.

Why was the story re-made 3000 years later, with such earth-shatteringly positive reviews? Why to we put people who claim to be the son of God on antipsychotics these days, while people are still waiting for the Messiah? Maybe something about the culture and the turmoil 2000 years ago set the people up to NEED such a movement. It filled that need, and so it stuck.

Theres nothing unique. We are all the same, and some just choose to try be unique, special, better, stronger, faster...for some reason. But, Its all the same.
 
You think? When you start to go back and explain your passage through various lives and the end goal of extinguishing the self over the course of lifetimes, I think you're pretty solidly in religious territory. Adding Bodhisattvas and the like into the equation certainly does.
There's a pretty consistent set of symbols, practices, lexicons and rituals associated with Buddhism that are universally recognizeable, as well. I've heard this argument a lot; I've just never bought it, at least as how it relates to practice.

Buddhism, and Hinduism, are philosophies and not religions.

However, the vast majority of people can not get their minds around a philosophy like these without having PhD level training in said philosophies.

People can, however, get their heads around going to temple, and listening to prayers and teachings, reading one or two books, and following eight rules.

Philosophy is for those who need it. Religon is for the masses.
 
Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion.

One could say it is a philosophy which was transformed into a religion by the people who came after buddha.

I still have my doubts that buddha saw himself as anything other than a Hindu who sought to clarify and distill the basic teachings. A reformer, rather than a usurper, so to speak.
 
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