Spine surgeon societies versus Pain surgeons

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myrandom2003

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We need a multi-society response from AAPMR, ASA, ASRA, AAPN, SIS, etc. These mischaracterizations and blatant attempts at protecting turf instead of patients must not stand. We are in an epidemic of causalgia and Modic-related back pain.

What would Doug Beall say?



Position Statement
on
Arthrodesis of the Spine by the Non-Spine Surgeon

Background
Patient safety and optimal outcomes are maximized by team-based treatment of patients with
either trauma or degenerative diseases of the spine involving a collaborative relationship between
neurosurgery and orthopaedic spine surgeons and non-surgeon spine clinicians who practice
within the scope of their training. With continued development of minimally invasive technology,
several options now exist to alter the biomechanics of the spine using percutaneous techniques.
Arthrodesis of the sacroiliac joints, facet joints and stabilization of a lumbar segment with
interspinous process clamps is now performed in various settings, including hospital inpatient,
hospital outpatient, ambulatory surgical centers and even — in some instances — physician offices.
As patient demand for minimally invasive techniques has increased, a significant number of nonsurgeon
clinicians now perform arthrodesis procedures that alter the biomechanics of the spine —
despite the fact that arthrodesis of the spine remains outside of the training curriculum of
physiatrists and pain management anesthesiologists who are currently performing these
procedures. The absence of formal training raises patient safety and quality of care considerations,
given that these non-surgeon clinicians are not required to undergo training in spinal biomechanics
or in the broad spectrum of spinal fusion and instrumentation techniques. These physicians lack the
necessary understanding of the potential ramifications of such interventions and cannot render the
appropriate management of common surgical complications. Neurosurgeons and orthopaedic
surgeons, on the other hand, are fully trained in these surgical techniques — having gained this
experience throughout their residencies and/or spine surgery fellowships. Additionally, both the
neurosurgery and orthopaedic surgery certifying boards specifically recognize surgical competency
for instrumentation in the spine.

Position Statement

Optimal patient care and patient safety are best served when surgical diseases affecting the spine
are managed by neurosurgeons and orthopaedic spinal surgeons trained in the full spectrum of
spinal biomechanics, including instrumentation and fusion techniques. Therefore, arthrodesis or
any other intervention that alters the biomechanics of the spine should not be performed by
practitioners in other fields outside of specialty-trained neurosurgery or orthopaedic spinal
surgeons.

Page 2 of 2

Rationale
• Neurosurgeons and orthopaedic spine surgeons are the only physicians who have
undergone extensive training in the biology, biomechanics, surgical anatomy and
techniques of instrumentation/stabilization of the human spine. That foundation provides
them with expertise in diagnosis, decision-making, formulation of treatment plans — which
may or may not involve instrumentation of the spine — and alteration of biomechanics in
the treatment of spinal disorders.

• Neurosurgeons and orthopaedic spine surgeons can directly address the common potential
complications that arise from instrumentation and/or arthrodesis of the spine.

• This unique range and depth of surgical skills are acquired throughout the neurosurgeon’s
and orthopaedic surgeon’s career, including residency, fellowship and post-training
continuing education and practice.

• Non-surgeon spine practitioners, such as pain-management anesthesiologists or
physiatrists, are valuable members of the spine care team. These practitioners play a role
in the diagnosis and treatment of nerve root compression, commonly using nonoperative
interventions such as medial branch blocks, radiofrequency ablations, epidural steroid
injections, etc. However, these nonoperative measures do not result in arthrodesis, which
invariably alters spinal biomechanics.

• Non-surgeon spine practitioners do not have the training and expertise to deal with the
potential complications that may arise from percutaneous instrumentation or stabilization
of the spine. The downstream consequences of such instrumentation fall outside the
purview of a pain management or physiatry physician’s training curriculum.

• There are confounding issues that impact the decision to stabilize the spine. Spino-pelvic
parameters — specifically sagittal balance, pelvic incidence and lumbar lordosis — must all
be incorporated into the calculus of the stabilization. Consideration of overall spinal
balance is particularly critical because stabilizing the lumbar spine may lead to adjacent
segment degeneration, which may require further surgery. Given patient safety and quality
of care considerations and education and training experience, managing surgical or other
stabilizing interventions for spinal degeneration falls exclusively within the purview of the
neurosurgeon and orthopaedic spine surgeon.

Endorsed by the:
American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons/
American Association Orthopaedic Surgeons
American Association of Neurological Surgeons
Cervical Spine Research Society
Congress of Neurological Surgeons
AANS/CNS Joint Section on Disorders of the Spine and Peripheral Nerves
International Society for the Advancement of Spine Surgery
Lumbar Spine Research Society
Scoliosis Research Society
Adopted on Oct. 14, 2021
 
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Don’t forget the new epidemic on the horizon of multifidi atrophy, (all kidding aside, I personally see on mri and believe in this as a source if axial back pain)
 
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Didn't read your entire post, but I'd be happy leaving fusions to surgeons if they'll leave injections to us.
 
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Didn't read your entire post, but I'd be happy leaving fusions to surgeons if they'll leave injections to us.
yes, and if they would stop coming up with biased poorly designed studies to "prove" that injections dont work but fusions do...
 
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yes, and if they would stop coming up with biased poorly designed studies to "prove" that injections dont work but fusions do...
I have yet to see one long term successful fusion where a patient is not complaining of pain and has transferred care to a pain physician - where 9/10 pain docs ending up putting these patients on oxy since the fusion wasnt successful in relieving pain. That’s the most common theme I see. Both in pain and in rehab patients.
 
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I have yet to see one long term successful fusion where a patient is not complaining of pain and has transferred care to a pain physician - where 9/10 pain docs ending up putting these patients on oxy since the fusion wasnt successful in relieving pain. That’s the most common theme I see. Both in pain and in rehab patients.
Observation bias.
 
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I have yet to see one long term successful fusion where a patient is not complaining of pain and has transferred care to a pain physician - where 9/10 pain docs ending up putting these patients on oxy since the fusion wasnt successful in relieving pain. That’s the most common theme I see. Both in pain and in rehab patients.
plenty of people do well after fusion with right indication. eventually a lot of them do develop adjacent segment disease, but had a good run for 5, 10, 20 years.
this is equivalent to surgeons saying injection never works because i end up doing surgery on all the backs - not true - because the ones that do get better never come to see you.
 
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I have yet to see one long term successful fusion where a patient is not complaining of pain and has transferred care to a pain physician - where 9/10 pain docs ending up putting these patients on oxy since the fusion wasnt successful in relieving pain. That’s the most common theme I see. Both in pain and in rehab patients.
This is interesting - I was just speaking with one of my former co-fellows who is out practicing in a pain group in the middle of nowhere. He told me he thinks stim is one of the best options for his patients. I told him that my patients often do very well with surgery and I see very mixed long-term results with stim. I work in a large city with leading orthopedic spine surgeons where people travel far distances for consultations. Don't get me wrong, there are still disasters with surgery, but the quality of the surgeons (skill wise and ethics wise) certainly makes a difference.
 
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This is interesting - I was just speaking with one of my former co-fellows who is out practicing in a pain group in the middle of nowhere. He told me he thinks stim is one of the best options for his patients. I told him that my patients often do very well with surgery and I see very mixed long-term results with stim. I work in a large city with leading orthopedic spine surgeons where people travel far distances for consultations. Don't get me wrong, there are still disasters with surgery, but the quality of the surgeons (skill wise and ethics wise) certainly makes a difference.
Perhaps the quality of the surgeon matters sure. I haven’t seen too many successful fusions though. Maybe it’s my patient population. Maybe the surgeons in my area suck. Who knows.
 
So what comes of this? Nothing will change unless insurances stop paying non-surgeons for these codes.
Agree and I unfortunately it is much easier for insurance/CMS to just devalue the codes than it is to police who is charging the fusion codes. 10 years ago this month, EMG codes were cut in half because of the pandemic of chiropractors/PT doing thousands of useless EMG studies on patients who didn't need them. Insurances apparently couldn't figure how to police/separate the truly qualified. (PMR and neurologists) from chiros/PT etc.

So these fusion codes will likely get whacked in the future and everyone will lose money, including the surgeons truly qualified to do them.

Along these same lines........I'm currently trying to not do EMGs for my orthopedic group because I can make more money in Pain and I don't love EMGs anyway. If anyone has ideas on how I can find a PMR/neurologist in Northern Colorado willing to travel to another practice to do 2-3 days of EMGs every month let me know.
 
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Perhaps the quality of the surgeon matters sure. I haven’t seen too many successful fusions though. Maybe it’s my patient population. Maybe the surgeons in my area suck. Who knows.
No one who did well is coming to see you. Just like no one who does well with esi sees the spine surgeon. How many were done for true instability or deformity vs ddd?
 
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T
No one who did well is coming to see you. Just like no one who does well with esi sees the spine surgeon. How many were done for true instability or deformity vs ddd?
I suppose that’s a valid point.
 
Pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered, as they say.
 
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This is interesting - I was just speaking with one of my former co-fellows who is out practicing in a pain group in the middle of nowhere. He told me he thinks stim is one of the best options for his patients. I told him that my patients often do very well with surgery and I see very mixed long-term results with stim. I work in a large city with leading orthopedic spine surgeons where people travel far distances for consultations. Don't get me wrong, there are still disasters with surgery, but the quality of the surgeons (skill wise and ethics wise) certainly makes a difference.
I think the quality of the surgeon matters quite a bit, as well as a surgeon that does a less invasive approach and only operates on levels that are causing symptoms. I hate it when I see one of these multilevel lami or lami and fusion surgeries, and Yoj look at the MRI and there was clearly one level that was most severe and almost certainly causing all the symptoms.
 
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if Minuteman is so easy and equivalent to traditional posterior fusion with the same coding and reimbursement, why wasn’t it marketed to spine surgeons first? Or was it, and they found it didn’t work?
 
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Whether it’s not inferior to traditional fusion or not has no bearing on the business.

Market analysis right?

Spine surgeons are tough to market to. There are too many devices in their space. And they ask for a lot in return.

Pain on the other hand, minimal to no competition in that device space, and everyone wants to adopt a new procedure that pays them great in a declining reimbursement space. As well as he considered an upcoming KOL.

Spine surgeons don’t want this to take off because then their reimbursement declines from the overutilization of the code.

As for these companies themselves, they have one product to offer and want to show growth to their investors and potential companies that would acquire them.
 
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Start reading around page 22. This “doctor A” is in my neck of the woods. A product of the Texas Back Institute. He was given IP patents for 2mill. Threatened the company to stop using them etc. “Doctor A” even tried to get his cousin a job with the company.

“Butler was in frequent direct contact with Dr. A during the Relevant Period and monitored his usage of Life Spine Products. They regularly communicated by text about business and personal issues. For example, in a late 2017 text exchange, Butler told Dr. A: “We are crushing ’18. There is so much moving. Trying to get you some podiums.” Dr. A responded: “Gotta get famous. Bitches like famous ppl.” Dr. A later texted Butler a picture of the Porsche he had just purchased.”
 
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Start reading around page 22. This “doctor A” is in my neck of the woods. A product of the Texas Back Institute. He was given IP patents for 2mill. Threatened the company to stop using them etc. “Doctor A” even tried to get his cousin a job with the company.

“Butler was in frequent direct contact with Dr. A during the Relevant Period and monitored his usage of Life Spine Products. They regularly communicated by text about business and personal issues. For example, in a late 2017 text exchange, Butler told Dr. A: “We are crushing ’18. There is so much moving. Trying to get you some podiums.” Dr. A responded: “Gotta get famous. Bitches like famous ppl.” Dr. A later texted Butler a picture of the Porsche he had just purchased.”
Wow. Are the docs getting any heat or just the company?
 
Docs pleaded. Doc a no real trouble we know of. Kicked out of group and setup his own shop. He is also rumored to do his own injections with lidocaine to show they don’t last so he can fuse.
 
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Start reading around page 22. This “doctor A” is in my neck of the woods. A product of the Texas Back Institute. He was given IP patents for 2mill. Threatened the company to stop using them etc. “Doctor A” even tried to get his cousin a job with the company.

“Butler was in frequent direct contact with Dr. A during the Relevant Period and monitored his usage of Life Spine Products. They regularly communicated by text about business and personal issues. For example, in a late 2017 text exchange, Butler told Dr. A: “We are crushing ’18. There is so much moving. Trying to get you some podiums.” Dr. A responded: “Gotta get famous. Bitches like famous ppl.” Dr. A later texted Butler a picture of the Porsche he had just purchased.”

This is very common and these hallway conversations routinely happen at NANS.
 
I think the real Q is…… if a pain doc puts in one of these fusion doodads and it doesn’t help, does that equal fbss to get scs approved? It all makes sense now….

I recently had a consult as a 2nd opinion. Healthy 65yo with severe L45 stenosis and mobile grade I listhesis. Can’t walk to his mailbox. Local worlds greatest KOL did a “decompression” (mild) followed “fusion”. When still had unrelieved leg pain he got an scs trial and perm. I got him on a real surgeons schedule next week. Sad…
 
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Whether it’s not inferior to traditional fusion or not has no bearing on the business.

Market analysis right?

Spine surgeons are tough to market to. There are too many devices in their space. And they ask for a lot in return.

Pain on the other hand, minimal to no competition in that device space, and everyone wants to adopt a new procedure that pays them great in a declining reimbursement space. As well as he considered an upcoming KOL.

Spine surgeons don’t want this to take off because then their reimbursement declines from the overutilization of the code.

As for these companies themselves, they have one product to offer and want to show growth to their investors and potential companies that would acquire them.
I really don't see how this is different from PCPs overusing 62321 by doing blind in office ESIs, and our reimbursement dropping because of it. We bitched and complained that unqualified providers overutilized procedure codes that should have been properly done by properly trained people. Rightly so. Now the shoe's on the other foot, people are trying to take advantage. I am not a surgeon, so I don't do surgery.
 
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I've heard that KOLs are mobilizing a response.

What I want to know is if any one of those KOLs (the usual suspects who voiced their opinions on the FB forum) would allow one of those devices to be placed in their own spine or the spine of their own mother.
 
What I want to know is if any one of those KOLs (the usual suspects who voiced their opinions on the FB forum) would allow one of those devices to be placed in their own spine or the spine of their own mother.
exactly.

Because that is how you should practice medicine
 
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What I want to know is if any one of those KOLs (the usual suspects who voiced their opinions on the FB forum) would allow one of those devices to be placed in their own spine or the spine of their own mother.

Watching KOLs it is a very common line for them to claim they “would do this for my own mother.” I believe part of the personality of the KOL is being able to sell the device to anyone, even yourself, assuming you are being paid enough to do so.
 
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What we should be doing as a profession and what our major pain societies should be doing is collaborate with the surgical specialty societies and say fine, we’ll regulate our own and step off your turf if you help us stop this midlevel creep that’s going to destroy our field in 10 years. We need them and should use this as an opportunity to better protect each profession and our patients. The clout and power their societies have put ours to shame
 
So if pedicle screws are equivalent to minutemen why shouldn't we do it?

I do endoscopic spine surgery - idk what else to call it - transforaminal approach. i am not a surgeon but i do perform some minimally invasive spine surgeries. idk why everyone on here is so up in arms with pushing our interventional field forward - just like cards did. where im at all the spine surgeons do injections - some even do medication management and i get minimal referrals from them
 
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What we should be doing as a profession and what our major pain societies should be doing is collaborate with the surgical specialty societies and say fine, we’ll regulate our own and step off your turf if you help us stop this midlevel creep that’s going to destroy our field in 10 years. We need them and should use this as an opportunity to better protect each profession and our patients. The clout and power their societies have put ours to shame

This is exactly what we need to do. Collaboration. There is strength in numbers. Flipping one another the bird while the surgeons do their own injections and we chant “stabilizing spines” serves only the manufacturer’s and KOLs.
 
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So if pedicle screws are equivalent to minutemen why shouldn't we do it?

I do endoscopic spine surgery - idk what else to call it - transforaminal approach. i am not a surgeon but i do perform some minimally invasive spine surgeries. idk why everyone on here is so up in arms with pushing our interventional field forward - just like cards did. where im at all the spine surgeons do injections - some even do medication management and i get minimal referrals from them

So, YOU have a paracentral disc protrusion with radicular pain and numbness. Six months of conservative therapy and a couple epidurals and you are no better off. You decide you need surgery. Do you seek out a trusted pain medicine colleague skilled in endoscopic surgery or do seek out a skilled neurosurgeon for a microdiscectomy?
 
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So, YOU have a paracentral disc protrusion with radicular pain and numbness. Six months of conservative therapy and a couple epidurals and you are no better off. You decide you need surgery. Do you seek out a trusted pain medicine colleague skilled in endoscopic surgery or do seek out a skilled neurosurgeon for a microdiscectomy?
My spine surgeon partner has something going on with his back. He limps around and refuses to get an MRI. I think he relies on an inversion table and kvetching as his primary therapy.
 
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My spine surgeon partner has something going on with his back. He limps around and refuses to get an MRI. I think he relies on an inversion table and kvetching as his primary therapy.

Ortho or NS?
 
Ortho. Very stubborn.

For them it’s all about being a tough guy. Yesterday the staff in the ASC was talking about how the young joint replacement doc does two full rooms of joints twice a week without any food, water or a break. Every week.
 
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So, YOU have a paracentral disc protrusion with radicular pain and numbness. Six months of conservative therapy and a couple epidurals and you are no better off. You decide you need surgery. Do you seek out a trusted pain medicine colleague skilled in endoscopic surgery or do seek out a skilled neurosurgeon for a microdiscectomy?

I probably wouldn't even have an epidural but thats me. I would also prefer endoscopic its less invasive - whoever the *skilled* MD is. Can always get a more invasive procedure if it fails. Great procedure you should look into it more
 
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My spine surgeon partner has something going on with his back. He limps around and refuses to get an MRI. I think he relies on an inversion table and kvetching as his primary therapy.

Yeah my friend who is neurosurgery said to me - yeah **** back surgery I'd never have it done unless I couldn't move my leg lol
 
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Yeah my friend who is neurosurgery said to me - yeah **** back surgery I'd never have it done unless I couldn't move my leg lol
Reminds me of how Steve Jobs wouldn't let his kids get iPhones because he knew how bad they are for your brain
 
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Watching KOLs it is a very common line for them to claim they “would do this for my own mother.” I believe part of the personality of the KOL is being able to sell the device to anyone, even yourself, assuming you are being paid enough to do so.
They have mothers?
 
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My spine surgeon partner has something going on with his back. He limps around and refuses to get an MRI. I think he relies on an inversion table and kvetching as his primary therapy.
I'm in the same boat. What's the point of getting an MRI if you don't want an epidural or surgery and have no neuro deficits. I need to look into this kvetching thing 😜
 
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