someone at my school cheated on the COMLEX and....

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I think this topic has run it's course. While I can't believe the supporters of a cheater, I don't think any of us are going to change the minds of the others. It seems like either you support this person and think they should be given a second chance or you don't support this person and think they should be punished (which of course is the correct way of thinking ;) )

Members don't see this ad.
 
Luke White,

your logic escapes me. Please help me understand why its OK to allow cheaters and scoundrels into the medical profession as long as they go into underserved primary care?

what a load of BS. We need more doctors in rural areas, but we dont need them THAT badly.

If anything, cheats/assclowns going into underserved primary care is WORSE than if they go into a highly crowded urban market. In the rural areas, the impact of 1 doctor is far greater than in an urban market, where people have lots of choices of which doctor they want.
 
i think the ppl who support the cheaters are very potentially cheaters themselves and are trying to justify their own personal actions, so thusly we will never succeed in changing their mind. :cool:
 
Members don't see this ad :)
cooldreams said:
i think the ppl who support the cheaters are very potentially cheaters themselves and are trying to justify their own personal actions, so thusly we will never succeed in changing their mind. :cool:

That logic is somewhat akin to the old farting 3rd grader saying "The blamer is the flamer."

I don't really have a firm opinion about this issue, but I'm shocked at how strident a lot of folks appear to come off here. None of us know the full story, to condemn and speculate without the facts is useless and counterproductive.

And I agree with the previous statments, that bringing up and dragging the situation/person thru the cyber mud is unseemly and self-serving.
 
I think everyone here agrees that the student made a poor, poor decision. Yes, I do believe that cheating is wrong and that this person should face the consequences of his/her actions. However, when did we become so judgmental? Would we be such harsh critics if this were our brother? Many of us seem quick to declare "this no-name person is horrible and should not be a physician". Is it our choice, really? And isn't a good doctor nonjudgmental? What's next: not treating a patient because he cheated on his wife and has acquired HIV? Why, of course then we could declare " this person is horrible and deserves to die from AIDS." Seriously, we do not need to strike down our judgments on this person.

I do not know if the administration took appropriate action, but I do think that they know many more of the facts surrounding the case then we do.
 
MacGyver said:
Luke White,

your logic escapes me. Please help me understand why its OK to allow cheaters and scoundrels into the medical profession as long as they go into underserved primary care?

I'd rather not repeat the arguments, since I've made them three times around already. One correction, though--I'm saying it's okay to allow these "cheaters and scoundrels," as you call them, into the profession regardless of specialty or focus. They'll still make good doctors, and that's what counts.

I've seen a fair share of instances of minor cheating after only one year of med school; I'm sure in many cases the individuals didn't consider it cheating. Maybe it was habitual by then; perhaps their moral compasses aren't set quite to due north. Regardless, if I know of it in my fairly small circle, I'm sure that it's widespread throughout the medical establishment.

This is just a difference of degree. Degree's important, absolutely. But there's no qualitative difference between cheating on the COMLEX and recycling a PowerPoint presentation from last year's class, or any number of seemingly minor offenses I could name. I suspect that a good number of the people rushing to judgment on this thread have engaged in something that could be construed as cheating since they began high school.

And I'm sure they'll make excellent doctors, though given the proportion of rhetoric to reason around here, I hope they choose not to serve on their medical disciplinary board.
 
LukeWhite said:
I'd rather not repeat the arguments, since I've made them three times around already.

Yeah and they didnt make sense the first 3 times either.

One correction, though--I'm saying it's okay to allow these "cheaters and scoundrels," as you call them, into the profession regardless of specialty or focus. They'll still make good doctors, and that's what counts.

cheaters and scoundrels make good doctors?

I've seen a fair share of instances of minor cheating after only one year of med school

Cheating on COMLEX exam is not "minor" and any attempt to label it as such is laughable.

I'm sure in many cases the individuals didn't consider it cheating.

So what? Its irrelevant what the individual thinks. Its still cheating.

Maybe it was habitual by then; perhaps their moral compasses aren't set quite to due north.

So you are OK with letting "habitual" cheaters and people with a poor moral compass into the medical profession? Damn you have very low standards.

Regardless, if I know of it in my fairly small circle, I'm sure that it's widespread throughout the medical establishment.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Even if there is lots of cheating going on, but that sure as hell doesnt excuse it.

This is just a difference of degree. Degree's important, absolutely. But there's no qualitative difference between cheating on the COMLEX and recycling a PowerPoint presentation from last year's class, or any number of seemingly minor offenses I could name.

So let me get this straight. Since people who reuse powerpoint files dont get kicked out of school, neither should the COMLEX cheater? What kind of ridiculous moral relativism is this?

I suspect that a good number of the people rushing to judgment on this thread have engaged in something that could be construed as cheating since they began high school.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Even if true, it doesnt excuse the behavior.

And I'm sure they'll make excellent doctors, though given the proportion of rhetoric to reason around here, I hope they choose not to serve on their medical disciplinary board.

You are "sure" that known cheats and scoundrels will make good doctors? Based on what evidence?
 
That logic is somewhat akin to the old farting 3rd grader saying "The blamer is the flamer."
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
BlueFalcon said:
If a jury of his peers decided that OJ was innocent, who are we to argue?

No, this would be analogous to Mr. and Mrs. Goldman deciding that OJ was innocent...or rather, if Ron and Nicole could somehow express their belief that OJ was innocent, or deserved another chance.
 
Boomer said:
We are the people who pay 300 to 500 bucks per step of this exam. We are the people who are awarded medical licenses based on the scores from this national licensing board. We are the people who will/may be working alongside this assclown....

That's who we are to argue. I would think someone who obviously worked as hard as yourself to attain such a high score on this exam would be outraged as well....my step one score was nowhere near yours, but this situation still pisses me off....

See, this is what makes me think the guy threw himself on his sword and begged for mercy. I would not imagine that I national licensing board would be so eager to allow a known cheater to re-take their exam, mainly because they get nothing from the endeavor. I would imagine that many hoops had to be jumped through and what not, for this to occur,

edit: I would only be pissed if he beat me :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

in all seriousness, if I were deciding, I would impose the death penalty on this student, but the people who get to decide such things chose not to, so there should be some reason why.
 
racystacey07 said:
And isn't a good doctor nonjudgmental? What's next: not treating a patient because he cheated on his wife and has acquired HIV? Why, of course then we could declare " this person is horrible and deserves to die from AIDS." Seriously, we do not need to strike down our judgments on this person.

As physicians, it is (will be) our job to provide non-discriminatory care for patients who seek it. As professionals, it is our job to ensure that our profession is held to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and decency. There is a significant, real difference between judging a colleague and judging a patient.
 
stinkycheese said:
As physicians, it is (will be) our job to provide non-discriminatory care for patients who seek it. As professionals, it is our job to ensure that our profession is held to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and decency. There is a significant, real difference between judging a colleague and judging a patient.

That sums it up right there. Not much more can be said (though I am sure it will...)

My classmates and I are trying to get some answers to some of the questions that have come up in this discussion so that we can better understand why the administration chose to handle the matter in the way it did. It's unlikely that I will post that information since this discussion has clearly run its course.

I have to say it will be very, very hard for me not to feel some animosity toward this person in the future and I sincerely hope I don't end up on a team with them during rotations, but if I do, I will have to assume they have learned from their mistakes. Whatever happens, I hope they understand that the privelege they will carry is huge, and I hope they will work to make the school and the profession proud of them and not take this extremely generous second chance lightly.
 
stinkycheese said:
As physicians, it is (will be) our job to provide non-discriminatory care for patients who seek it. As professionals, it is our job to ensure that our profession is held to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and decency. There is a significant, real difference between judging a colleague and judging a patient.


So, let me get this straight. You will go ahead and impose your quick judgment on others, as long as he/she is not a patient of yours? While I agree with you that cheating is wrong and that it is important to uphold the profession to moral standards and ideals, I do not believe that we need to crucify the student. It is both the responsibility of the administration and of the individual to take care of this matter. I do not know if the administration dealt with this appropriately, but I do know that throwing out accusations, blame, and judgments on this forum is most certainly not ensuring that honesty is being upheld. I agree with most of what you say, but I sincerely feel that the blanket judgments should be left out. Seriously.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
sophiejane said:
My classmates and I are trying to get some answers to some of the questions that have come up in this discussion so that we can better understand why the administration chose to handle the matter in the way it did. It's unlikely that I will post that information since this discussion has clearly run its course.

Just can't leave it alone, huh? You and your pals just have to get to the bottom of this. Obviously, the school, the NBOME, and the student are trying to move on. Why don't you follow their lead?

And I highly doubt that you'll sanctimoniously leave the rest of the story off SDN. After all, nothing has stopped you so far.
 
I think that, at the very least, this person's schoolmates have a right to know why the situation was handled as it was. Personally, I think everyone who took the exam should be able to know what the rationale was, not for the indiscretion, but for the administrative decision that followed. Some things need to be discussed, if only for the sake of discussion.
 
sophiejane said:
That sums it up right there. Not much more can be said (though I am sure it will...)

My classmates and I are trying to get some answers to some of the questions that have come up in this discussion so that we can better understand why the administration chose to handle the matter in the way it did. It's unlikely that I will post that information since this discussion has clearly run its course.

I have to say it will be very, very hard for me not to feel some animosity toward this person in the future and I sincerely hope I don't end up on a team with them during rotations, but if I do, I will have to assume they have learned from their mistakes. Whatever happens, I hope they understand that the privelege they will carry is huge, and I hope they will work to make the school and the profession proud of them and not take this extremely generous second chance lightly.

Good luck. There are a lot of us here who feel the same as you. I wish you luck in dealing with this situation.
 

If the NBOME determines in its sole discretion that any candidate committed or contributed to any irregular behavior in connection with the application, for or the taking of, any examination, the NBOME may invalidate any examination scores of the candidate, suspend, revoke or refuse to provide any transcript to a candidate or any third party, and deny any application by the candidate to take any NBOME examination. The NBOME may also notify the school or medical program and any state licensure board or agency making any inquiry of the irregular behavior. The decision of the NBOME will be final.


Seems pretty clear that the NBOME reserves the right to end the student's medical career, but makes it clear that's not a necessary consequence. There is a "decision" to be made.

But woe to the NBOME if it thinks that decision is final--there's always the kangaroo court of cannibalistic students to deal with. A question to the Columbos getting to the bottom of this--what do you hope to accomplish? Are you hoping for a reversal of the decision to be (mildly) lenient? A second, maybe more heartfelt letter of apology from the offender? A letter of apology from the NBOME for diluting the sterling reputation of the COMLEX?
 
Idiopathic said:
I think that, at the very least, this person's schoolmates have a right to know why the situation was handled as it was. Personally, I think everyone who took the exam should be able to know what the rationale was, not for the indiscretion, but for the administrative decision that followed. Some things need to be discussed, if only for the sake of discussion.

I think you meant to say: "Some things need to be discussed, if only for the sake of satisfying some students' morbid curiosity."

If "only for the sake of discussion"? As if there is a premed somewhere, who read the thread and has decided to not cheat on the boards?
 
LukeWhite said:
Seems pretty clear that the NBOME reserves the right to end the student's medical career, but makes it clear that's not a necessary consequence. There is a "decision" to be made.

But woe to the NBOME if it thinks that decision is final--there's always the kangaroo court of cannibalistic students to deal with. A question to the Columbos getting to the bottom of this--what do you hope to accomplish? Are you hoping for a reversal of the decision to be (mildly) lenient? A second, maybe more heartfelt letter of apology from the offender? A letter of apology from the NBOME for diluting the sterling reputation of the COMLEX?


By "getting to the bottom of it", all I wanted was to do was to understand the situation a little better, so you can hold the sarcasm, Luke. And after today, I do understand it better. As I said before, there is nothing I can do as a student except to disagree, nor is it my place to try to change decisions (or lack thereof, as the case may be) of the NBOME and the administration. In my very first post, all I asked for was how similar situations were handled at other schools. I wanted a discussion (by the way, I wasn't the one who suggested ostracizing or making them wear a dunce cap) and some feedback. I felt like the administration owed us an explanation as to why a student caught cheating on the boards was still enrolled and in classes, or is enrolled at least for now. We got that explanation as of today. Enough said.

Glad we were all able to discuss this at length as I think it's an important issue to think about.
 
San_Juan_Sun said:
I think you meant to say: "Some things need to be discussed, if only for the sake of satisfying some students' morbid curiosity."

If "only for the sake of discussion"? As if there is a premed somewhere, who read the thread and has decided to not cheat on the boards?

I think I know what I meant to say, but thanks for suggesting otherwise. Don't you sit around some times, over a beer, and yell at your friends for liking/disliking something, be it political parties, social concerns, CD releases or sports teams? Now, I dont consider this even a remote extension of that, but some people enjoy debate...it cultures the place up a little.

If you have nothing constructive to add, perhaps you should vacate.
 
LukeWhite said:

A question to the Columbos getting to the bottom of this--what do you hope to accomplish? Are you hoping for a reversal of the decision to be (mildly) lenient? A second, maybe more heartfelt letter of apology from the offender? A letter of apology from the NBOME for diluting the sterling reputation of the COMLEX?


Who is "getting to the bottom" of anything? Some of you people just need to realize that this place is often just an exercise in expression...venting if you will. Lets not make SDN more than what it is.

And you all know how I feel about the COMLEX. That said, my only curiosity here would be under what circumstances does the NBOME choose to allow students to sit for an exam they cheated on...was there not enough evidence? Was there mercy from the court? Was the administration pro-active in this matter? You would all have to agree that, whatever the case, it presents a very interesting precedent.
 
Idiopathic said:
I think I know what I meant to say, but thanks for suggesting otherwise. Don't you sit around some times, over a beer, and yell at your friends for liking/disliking something, be it political parties, social concerns, CD releases or sports teams? Now, I dont consider this even a remote extension of that, but some people enjoy debate...it cultures the place up a little.

If you have nothing constructive to add, perhaps you should vacate.

There's a big difference between debate and gossip/ranting. And again, beyond satisfying your curiosity, discussion of this incident has no contructive effects on the real world.
 
Idiopathic said:
I think I know what I meant to say, but thanks for suggesting otherwise. Don't you sit around some times, over a beer, and yell at your friends for liking/disliking something, be it political parties, social concerns, CD releases or sports teams? Now, I dont consider this even a remote extension of that, but some people enjoy debate...it cultures the place up a little.

If you have nothing constructive to add, perhaps you should vacate.

I'd say SJS's points are far more constructive than the overall thread itself. It's fine for people to enjoy debate, etc. In this instance, it's been at someone's expense. The only thing that could make worse the fact that classmates of this guy troll around feeling they're "owed an explanation" for something that's really none of their concern is taking those complaints to a very public forum.

If this were merely an academic discussion of abstract circumstances, it would be a forgivably pointless discussion. As it is, it's been an animosity-ridden judgment fest. People enjoy debate; they also enjoy feeling morally superior. SJS is dead on--whatever this thread is, it's one part harmless "venting" and ten parts sanctimony.

Why not devote your energies to helping this student out, Mr Scarlet C's former classmates? The decision's been made and life moves on. Getting that explanation you feel you're owed does nothing; rallying around the student and helping them survive the straight-and-narrow might be a more useful and dare I say, even more satisfying use of what appears to be way too much post-boards free time.
 
San_Juan_Sun said:
There's a big difference between debate and gossip/ranting. And again, beyond satisfying your curiosity, discussion of this incident has no contructive effects on the real world.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious...does anything that goes on here have any effect on this 'real world' that you seem to know so much about? Debate is often a constructive force for change, as I assume you already know. Do you think that the sort of behavior exhibited by the 'cheater', as well as that of the NBOME, without knowing the circumstances, is acceptable? I dont really think that I do. I rely on the standing afforded me by this particular licensing board and the last thing any of us need is for the NBOME to become another link in the supposed 'diploma mill' that plenty of people already assume osteopathic colleges are.
 
racystacey07 said:
So, let me get this straight. You will go ahead and impose your quick judgment on others, as long as he/she is not a patient of yours?

No. I try not to judge people. I do judge people's actions, however, and that is a separate issue. Additionally, just because I believe it is our responsibility to maintain an understanding of our colleagues' behavior so that we may protect the integrity of our profession, this does not mean that I subscribe to a practice of judging everyone I come into contact with. Some things are not my business, this particular case included, but if I were a student of osteopathy, it certainly would be an issue important to me. The COMLEX is such a critical exam, and the NBOME has such a serious responsibility to DO physicians and students, that I do believe this matter is one that should be discussed, dissected, and yes, criticized analytically.

racystacey07 said:
While I agree with you that cheating is wrong and that it is important to uphold the profession to moral standards and ideals, I do not believe that we need to crucify the student.

You must be getting confused. I never said I wanted to crucify the student. I do, however, think an expulsion is in order. I do not believe that is the same as a crucifixition, but perhaps you disagree. Nonetheless, students are expelled from medical schools, both allopathic and osteopathic, for grievances much less severe than this. I do not think an explulsion would be unjust or unfair punishment.

racystacey07 said:
It is both the responsibility of the administration and of the individual to take care of this matter. I do not know if the administration dealt with this appropriately, but I do know that throwing out accusations, blame, and judgments on this forum is most certainly not ensuring that honesty is being upheld. I agree with most of what you say, but I sincerely feel that the blanket judgments should be left out. Seriously.

Again, you must be confused. I haven't thrown out accusations or blame, but have worked with the facts presented. The student isn't accused of cheating, he is guilty by confession. He has voluntarily taken the 'blame' for this incident. Additionally, I do believe, as I stated above, that it is the responsibility of the osteopathic community to analyze this situation and what it means for their profession. In this case, 'judgments', as discussed on this forum, are merited.

I also do not appreciate how everyone has attacked Sophiejane for saying that she and some friends are asking questions about what happened. You all have turned that statement into an indication that she is going on some sort of witch hunt; that is not the case, from what I gather. Rather, she is trying to understand how her school came to a decision such as this, simple as that. I believe it is her class' right to get some answers, and clearly the school agrees, since it sanctioned a class-wide email sent by the offending student explaining the situation.
 
stinkycheese said:
Nonetheless, students are expelled from medical schools, both allopathic and osteopathic, for grievances much less severe than this.

Cheese,

Thanks for the well-thought-out points; if there's any value to this thread, it's in posts like these.

With that said: Do you have examples of less severe grievances that result in expulsion from medical school? I can't think of any.
 
LukeWhite said:
I'd say SJS's points are far more constructive than the overall thread itself. It's fine for people to enjoy debate, etc. In this instance, it's been at someone's expense. The only thing that could make worse the fact that classmates of this guy troll around feeling they're "owed an explanation" for something that's really none of their concern is taking those complaints to a very public forum.

If this were merely an academic discussion of abstract circumstances, it would be a forgivably pointless discussion. As it is, it's been an animosity-ridden judgment fest. People enjoy debate; they also enjoy feeling morally superior. SJS is dead on--whatever this thread is, it's one part harmless "venting" and ten parts sanctimony.

Why not devote your energies to helping this student out, Mr Scarlet C's former classmates? The decision's been made and life moves on. Getting that explanation you feel you're owed does nothing; rallying around the student and helping them survive the straight-and-narrow might be a more useful and dare I say, even more satisfying use of what appears to be way too much post-boards free time.


Why dont you and your classmate (SJS) just get a room. I cannot believe that you dont feel anything about this issue besides the fact that the person deserves not to have his peers discuss the case. I bet you would feel different if it was your anatomy final that your buddy SJS cheated on, right? Maybe not, maybe it is easier to overlook. I myself have stated that I dont really have anything invested either, except curiosity...last I checked, that was still okay. Maybe when you guys get done taking boards you will feel differently.
 
Idiopathic said:
that of the NBOME, without knowing the circumstances, is acceptable?

Of course not. Just like I don't think public excoriation of this indivisual is either.

For all the talk about integrity and professionalism, I find the folks who want to go to the school's admin (as well as the folks on SDN who cheer them on), pretty lacking in this category. Honestly, how classless is it to go to the school admin pushing for info (and secretly wanting to influence a dismissal)?

Pretty weak in my opinion.
 
Ah, I wondered how long it would take you to pull the "I've been in med school a year longer" card. Though you've shown admirable restraint in waiting seven pages for it.

Anyhow--no, I'd feel no differently if this were one of my classmates. What others do in my class doesn't affect me; even if this person cheated successfully and got away scot-free, the difference on the scores would be miniscule. PARTICULARLY on the boards, the tangible harm a cheater does is negligible, since you're compared to the nation, not to the class as you are on an anatomy exam.

And at this point people are jumping up indigantly and saying that it's the principle of the thing. I respectfully disagree. To repeat the points--people cheat in academics constantly; it's reprehensible but doesn't by itself exclude them from going on to become good doctors. In this case, the harm to future patients is nil. If we should be concerned about this because we should be weeding out the bad apples, well, I'm way more concerned with the lack of compassion I see here than with the lapse in ethics that occurred.

As far as curiosity goes, some people drive by accidents keeping a nice clip, some stop to help, and some slow down, gawk, and make nasty comments. The first two are helpful, and to the extent that you and others have engaged in that, more power to you. The last, however, is helpful to no one and certainly makes it no less easy on this person who deserves mercy no less than anyone else.
 
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/321/7258/398

BMJ 2000;321:398 ( 12 August )
Editorials
Cheating at medical school

Justice must be done and seen to be done

Recently the BMJ received the following anonymous letter.

"Dear Sir,

I am a graduating student of Royal Free and University College London Medical School. During the finals of clinical exams I was witness to one of the most ugly scenes in my short but eventful life. One of my colleagues had in a brazen attempt to obfuscate the examiners made use of her Oxford Clinical Handbook during her long case. Unfortunately (or fortunately) for her, she was caught red handed. The deed was not looked on kindly by the authorities, especially when she attempted to extricate herself by claiming she had also done this in a previous examination and not been caught---thereby (or so she believed) justifying her act. . . . My colleagues and I were convinced that she would receive her comeuppance.

After meeting the disciplinary board, however, she was allowed to pass her exams without further ado. Fair play and honesty---two virtues I have always believed in---have been made monkeys of again. In future perhaps we should all do as she did. After all, look where it's got her."

We rang the medical school, and the subdean confirmed that the facts in the letter were correct except that the student did not say that she had used a book in a previous examination. The examining committee had decided to allow her to graduate but had held back distinctions and prizes that she might have won. She had been an exemplary student, and there was no indication that she had done this before.

It's easy to understand why the committee took the decision it did. The student would have been distressed. Some of the committee members must have known the student and themselves have been upset to find a star student cheating. They are no doubt kindly people, some with children the same age as the student. A few minutes with a book probably made little difference to her performance. The committee may have done the right thing to pass her, but it also made some mistakes.

The problem with cheating is that it destroys trust. Somebody who can cheat can also lie. Suddenly everything is uncertain. Perhaps they have cheated in previous exams. Perhaps they cheated in course work. Perhaps they've invented data in experiments. Perhaps achievements described in their curriculum vitae are false. When the police find somebody guilty of financial fraud they assume that everything else is fraudulent until proved otherwise. They investigate. Doctors, whose business is helping people not punishing them, are inclined to assume the opposite, but it is the police who have more experience of fraud.

The biggest mistake of the committee or the school was to fail to ensure that justice was not only done but seen to be done. It seems unlikely that the student who wrote to the BMJ is the only student who knows. It seems much more likely that all the students know. The gossip would spread fast in the highly charged atmosphere that accompanies final exams. The students expect the cheating student to "get her comeuppance"---but nothing happens. It seems unfair. Why should they play by the rules if nothing happens to those who cheat? Perhaps others are cheating and getting away with it. Maybe they are being disadvanatged by not cheating. What is a qualification worth if somebody can cheat and still be awarded it? To avoid a corruption of the whole process and the school, the school needed to explain its actions to the students---and it would need to be a very convincing explanation.

The committee has also failed to consider the broader context. The medical profession is in the dock. Self regulation is suspect. The public worries that doctors cover up for each other. It needs its confidence in doctors restored. Passing a student who is found cheating and failing to offer an adequate explanation for the action damages the culture of medicine.

Has the BMJ done the right thing to publicise this episode? The school thinks not. We understand that it thinks it has dealt justly with the student. But it has done so privately, and justice is not a private matter. It has not shown the rest of the students that it has dealt justly and therefore it has not dealt justly by them. We understand too that there is a risk that the student herself may end up being punished more by public exposure than she would have been had she been failed in her examination. But the actions of the school potentially undermine the credibility of medical education and so of medicine. The issue needs exposure and debate.

Richard Smith, Editor.
 
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7281/250

Cheating at medical school

Schools need a culture that simply makes dishonest behaviour unacceptable

Papers p 274

The BMJ recently featured a strong response to what was judged an inappropriately lenient reaction by a medical school to a student cheating in an examination.1 Reviews of the literature suggest that we have insufficient reliable data about the extent of this phenomenon, its rate of change, its pathogenesis, its prevention, or its effective management.2-4 Furthermore, because of the nature of cheating and the methodological difficulties entailed in its study, the requisite evidence based conclusions will probably never be available. Yet, much can be concluded and acted upon on the basis of common sense and concepts with face validity, even without double blind studies.

There is general agreement that there should be zero tolerance of cheating in a profession based on trust and one on which human lives depend. It is reasonable to assume that cheaters in medical school will be more likely than others to continue to act dishonestly with patients, colleagues, insurers, and government. Given the enormous power over life and death which doctors possess, we must strive to reduce the likelihood of the troubling question by patients: "Doctor, are you doing this for me, or am I doing this for you?"

The behaviours under question are multifactorial in origin. Firstly, there are familial, religious, and cultural values that are acquired long before medical school. For example, countries, cultures, and subcultures exist where bribes and dishonest behaviour are almost a norm, while others have much higher standards of ethical conduct. There are secondary schools in which neither staff nor students tolerate cheating and others where cheating is rampant; there are homes which imbue young people with high standards of ethical behaviour and others which leave ethical training to the pernicious influence of television and the market place.

Medical schools reflect society and cannot be expected to remedy all the ills of a postmodern hedonistic society. The school's major responsibility is to focus on the young people who present themselves for admission and to nurture and enhance positive ethical behaviour. The selection process of medical students might be expected to favour candidates with integrity---if one had a reliable method for detecting such characteristics in advance. Few data suggest that admission committees possess such prophetic qualities. One rare piece of data is that from Ben Gurion University's interview process, which seemed to favour students with a higher score on a measure of ethical maturity5 rather than simply those with high grades. Several Australian medical schools have adopted a screening test developed at Newcastle University with a component that evaluates ethical maturity, but data on its validity have not yet been published.

Medical schools should be the major focus of attention for imbuing future doctors with integrity and ethical sensitivity. Unfortunately there are troubling, if inconclusive, data that suggest that during medical school the ethical behaviour of medical students does not necessarily improve; indeed, moral development may actually stop6 or even regress. Among the factors contributing to this distressing phenomenon are the overemphasis on grades and competition, negative role models, student abuse, a hidden curriculum which delivers negative messages, a culture of student unwillingness to police themselves, and an institutional tolerance of cheating.

What can be done to counter this by the medical academic establishment? The creation of a pervasive institutional culture of integrity is essential. It is critical that the academic and clinical leaders of the institution set a personal example of integrity. Medical schools must make their institutional position and their expectations of students absolutely clear from day one. The study by Rennie et al in this issue shows that there is no consensus among students on what constitutes unacceptable behaviour (p 274).7 The development of a school's culture of integrity requires a partnership with the students in which they play an active role in its creation and nurturing. The emphasis should be less on "reporting" breaches, which still presents great difficulty for many students, but more on creating an environment of peer pressure in which certain behaviour simply is not acceptable.8

The teaching of medical ethics in small discussion groups throughout the entire medical curriculum is important, but it should focus not only on "classic" bioethical problems but also on the daily ethical dilemmas faced by the students themselves, as pioneered by Christakis and Feudtner.9 It should be expanded to deal specifically and repeatedly with issues of integrity and professionalism.10

Moreover, the school's examination system and general treatment of students must be perceived as fair. The title, "Honesty in learning, fairness in teaching,"2 expresses this goal precisely. Finally, the treatment of infractions must be firm, fair, transparent, and consistent.

There are no easy solutions to this complex and vexing problem of inculcating honesty, but each institution needs to develop a comprehensive, proactive programme to deal with the problem in accord with its own unique character and culture. The future of the medical professional depends on preserving and restoring public trust in doctors, but this trust must be deserved and earned.

Shimon M Glick, professor emeritus.
 
Academic Medicine 68: 887-889 (1993)
? 1993 Association of American Medical Colleges
Medical student academic misconduct: implications of recent case law and possible institutional responses

RF Wagner Jr
University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77555-0783.

Recent case law has protected medical students found guilty of academic misconduct from severe sanctions by emphasizing due process and contractural rights. In light of this development, proactive approaches should be considered by medical schools. Faculty or administrators who have legal backgrounds are more likely to avoid breach of contract and violation of due process and should be appointed as hearing officers in cases of alleged academic misconduct. Finally, determination of a student's mental state (as defined in the MPC) by the hearing officer is a fair and rational method of determining what sanctions should be placed on medical students found to have cheated or plagiarized.
 
Acad Med. 1996 Mar;71(3):267-73.

Cheating in medical school: a survey of second-year students at 31 schools.

Baldwin DC Jr, Daugherty SR, Rowley BD, Schwarz MD.

American Medical Association, Chicago, Illinois, USA.

BACKGROUND: Although there have been a number of studies of cheating in universities, surprisingly little has appeared recently in the literature regarding academic dishonesty among medical students. METHOD: To assess the prevalence of cheating in medical schools across the country, class officers at 31 of 40 schools contacted distributed a survey in the spring of 1991 to their second-year classmates. The survey consisted of questions about the students' attitudes toward cheating, their observations of cheating among their classmates, and whether they had themselves cheated. The results were analyzed using contingency tables, t-tests, Pearson correlations, and one-way analysis of variance. RESULTS: Of the 3,975 students attending the 31 schools, 2,459 (62%) responded. Thirty-nine percent of the respondents reported witnessing some type of cheating among classmates during the first two years of medical education, while 66.5% reported having heard about such cheating. When reporting about themselves, 31.4% admitted cheating in junior high school, 40.5% in high school, 16.5% in college, and only 4.7% in medical school. Reports of cheating varied across medical schools, but no relationship was found between rates of cheating and medical school characteristics. Men were more likely to report having cheated than were women. The best predictor of whether someone was likely to cheat in medical school was whether they had cheated before, although the data strongly support the role of environmental factors. Medical school honor codes exercised some effect on cheating behavior, but the effect was not large. CONCLUSION: About 5% of the medical students surveyed reported cheating during the first two years of medical school. The students appeared resigned to the fact that cheating is impossible to eliminate, but they lacked any clear consensus about how to proceed when they became aware of cheating by others. The guidance students appear to need concerns not so much their own ethical behaviors as how and when to intervene to address the ethical conduct of their peers.

PMID: 8607927 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
LukeWhite said:
Anyhow--no, I'd feel no differently if this were one of my classmates. What others do in my class doesn't affect me; even if this person cheated successfully and got away scot-free, the difference on the scores would be miniscule. PARTICULARLY on the boards, the tangible harm a cheater does is negligible, since you're compared to the nation, not to the class as you are on an anatomy exam.

I have to disagree with some of your comments. I haven't read the entire thread, nor really read any of the details....but your comment provoked me to write something.

It doesn't matter if it affects you a minsicule amount or not, it affects you nonetheless. Cheating without proper punishment that would inhibit anyone else from cheating will only produce more who cheat. If the risks are not negative enough...there will be those who will weigh the risks of cheating and doing better versus being caught - this is reality. Obviously good people can cheat...bad people can cheat...people can change...but there need to be consequences that are appropriate regardless of the character of that person - blind justice.

I don't think idiopathic was pulling the "i'm a year ahead" card...I think he was saying until you put in all that blood & sweat into studying for the boards you not may feel the same way.

I'm sure you believe there should be a consequence...but the tone seemd a little cavaliar about it - that's all. Let me also state...I haven't read the entire thread...and there is a strong chance I mis-interpreted your post as well - I apologize if I did.


Let me throw out one more thought:

Student A is improperly interacts with their cadavor...say the MS has sex with it (gross I know).

Student B cheats on exams...doing super well...and had that student not cheated, they still would pass....but just not "honor" everything.

Should student A or B be expelled? I say both...while both committed actions that would not directly inhibit their ability to be a good doctor, I think the bigger question is whether they DESERVE the honor to be a doctor after such lack of good judgement.

People can change....BUT, too often it only happens AFTER they are caught. They don't change because they desired change...they change because they had to change.

Okay...getting off my soapbox. I don't mean to offend anyone - I apologize if I did. And if I'm not coherent...I didn't mean that either.
 
Pooh,

I wouldn't wish this thread upon anyone, so by all means don't feel as if you need to read it all. I've laid out a more complete rationale for the wisdom of doing just what the school did, though.

As for Idiopathic's "year ahead" comment, we'll leave that be--this isn't the first discussion in which he's used it, only the most bizarrely irrelevant. Again, what someone else does on the boards doesn't affect me. Folks are crucifying the student on good old fashioned principle.

Which leads to your third point of whether the student deserves to be a doctor. That has been covered many times over in pages past, but I will say that the argument's been heavy on repeating that over and over without really doing any critical thinking on what the answer is. And I'd submit that's NOT the bigger question--the bigger question is whether society's best served by allowing them to become a physician whether they deserve it or not. There are any number of reasons why punishments don't correspond exactly with crimes in civilized society; "eye for an eye" justice, as so many seem to be calling for, is generally an indicator of a very primitive justice system.

Which is exactly what so many here are arguing for: justice with the aim of satisfying personal ideas of conduct rather than the best interests of society. It's not an indefensible position; it's just not a terribly farsighted one.

Tkim,

Thanks for the articles! Very interesting. I find it particularly interesting that the first study considers resubmitting one's own work for another part of the class a grave offense. I think that many people, unless it's expressly forbidden by the professor, would not consider this cheating. This is an excellent example of how otherwise well-intentioned students can run afoul of professional ethics without intending to.
 
LukeWhite said:
Ah, I wondered how long it would take you to pull the "I've been in med school a year longer" card. Though you've shown admirable restraint in waiting seven pages for it.

Anyhow--no, I'd feel no differently if this were one of my classmates. What others do in my class doesn't affect me; even if this person cheated successfully and got away scot-free, the difference on the scores would be miniscule. PARTICULARLY on the boards, the tangible harm a cheater does is negligible, since you're compared to the nation, not to the class as you are on an anatomy exam.

And at this point people are jumping up indigantly and saying that it's the principle of the thing. I respectfully disagree. To repeat the points--people cheat in academics constantly; it's reprehensible but doesn't by itself exclude them from going on to become good doctors. In this case, the harm to future patients is nil. If we should be concerned about this because we should be weeding out the bad apples, well, I'm way more concerned with the lack of compassion I see here than with the lapse in ethics that occurred.

As far as curiosity goes, some people drive by accidents keeping a nice clip, some stop to help, and some slow down, gawk, and make nasty comments. The first two are helpful, and to the extent that you and others have engaged in that, more power to you. The last, however, is helpful to no one and certainly makes it no less easy on this person who deserves mercy no less than anyone else.

Fair enough. I think the only one that has any real explaining to do is the NBOME, and I think that given the current concerns of the DO profession, it is imperative that the licensing board be beyond reproach. So, as I have stated before, I must assume that they had a perfectly good reason.

Curiosity is what drives me to know what that reason was, but it certainly doesnt occupy too much time in my life...I mainly just like arguing with you ;)
 
LukeWhite said:
As for Idiopathic's "year ahead" comment, we'll leave that be--this isn't the first discussion in which he's used it, only the most bizarrely irrelevant. Again, what someone else does on the boards doesn't affect me. Folks are crucifying the student on good old fashioned principle.

Two things: the comment was "Maybe when you guys get done taking boards you will feel differently." No mention of anything having to do with 'a year ahead'. It could be that you will realize how ridiculously irrelevant the COMLEX is, and will question how someone could not consider cheating...It is truly a bizarre examination. Also, what someone does on the boards specifically does affect you, in ways that perhaps you do not understand. The COMLEX is already the brunt of many jokes and is not highly regarded as a standardized exam, for what that is worth. The value of our degree is ultimately based largely on the validity of this exam, and the people who administer it, from the proctors to the authors.

At least this is what I believe.
 
Idiopathic, since you have some insight as to the validity of the COMLEX I exam, perhaps you could be so kind as to share your source for this? I do recall seeing very good validity studies for COMLEX I published in the JAOA. Perhaps you know something that the rest of us don't know. Maybe you've got some sort of SECRET inside scoop on the inside? Or, could it be, that your just shooting off your mouth without any facts or data to back it up? Please share with us!!

DOYODA2004
 
At least this is what I believe.
doyoda, i think this may answer your overly sarcastic question
 
doyoda2004 said:
Idiopathic, since you have some insight as to the validity of the COMLEX I exam, perhaps you could be so kind as to share your source for this? I do recall seeing very good validity studies for COMLEX I published in the JAOA. Perhaps you know something that the rest of us don't know. Maybe you've got some sort of SECRET inside scoop on the inside? Or, could it be, that your just shooting off your mouth without any facts or data to back it up? Please share with us!!

DOYODA2004

Sure, here goes...

The validity of the COMLEX is established through several sources, some of whom are: The question authors, who are paid minimally, if at all, to write questions and subsequently review them; the 'workshop' types, who piece the exam together, and are probably responsible for many of the photographic monstrosities that show up; the administrative bodies of various schools, who probably do not push hard enough for a more representative test; the proctors, who could have cared less how many times we went to the restroom in one block.

With that said, I do not, in this thread, challenge the validity of the COMLEX as an evaluator of performance, although I do think the test is weak. I do challenge the validity of any exam administered by a licensing body that would ever excuse cheating on its exam. Knowing all the hurdles that must be jumped through to even take the USMLE, it surprises me that a group who's exam is so close to being computerized, and hopefully self-bound under similar restriction, could be as lax both in enforcement and discipline.

Does that answer your question about what 'validity' can mean? It does not always have to apply to the inner-workings of the exam, but rather to the validity of the process as a whole. What if it were to become an all-too-freuqent occurrence that individuals 'cheated' and were punished, but not expelled. Would that, in any way, detract from the test as a whole and the license conferred by it? For every 'cheater' (I really hate that word) caught, I would wager that 5 more are not caught. Perhaps the NBOME should take this more seriously.

My point along has been that I would like to know under what circumstances the NBOME excuses cheating. There has been a precedent set here.
 
Forcing someone to repeat a year and presumably putting "Cheater" in big red letters on their permanent record is by no means excusing the act of cheating. There seems to be the idea that anything less than the maximum penalty is leniency; this is simplistic.

I wonder how many of those clamoring for expulsion also favor default-maximum penalties for drug offenders, petty white collar crime, minor medical negligence, etc. The harshest penalty is rarely the most just.
 
LukeWhite said:
As far as curiosity goes, some people drive by accidents keeping a nice clip, some stop to help, and some slow down, gawk, and make nasty comments. The first two are helpful, and to the extent that you and others have engaged in that, more power to you. The last, however, is helpful to no one and certainly makes it no less easy on this person who deserves mercy no less than anyone else.

so...which one are you? And how about San Juan Sun?

For someone who doesn't think this should be argued in a public place, you sure have spent a lot of time and energy the past few days weighing in on it.

There are a lot of folks around here that might have a career in law if they wanted it.

I still want to be a doc, however, so I am off to learn those autonomic drugs...
 
sophiejane said:
so...which one are you? And how about San Juan Sun?

For someone who doesn't think this should be argued in a public place, you sure have spent a lot of time and energy the past few days weighing in on it.

There are a lot of folks around here that might have a career in law if they wanted it.

I still want to be a doc, however, so I am off to learn those autonomic drugs...

Good idea....spend more time studying and less time gossiping about matters that really don't pertain to anyone on this message board.
 
In closing, this topic does pertain to everyone on this message board. I'm sorry that many of you are too short-sighted to see that.
 
Idiopathic said:
In closing, this topic does pertain to everyone on this message board. I'm sorry that many of you are too short-sighted to see that.

Please explain your logic. Is it our responsibility to question why certain classmates were accepted to medical school? Maybe I should go to administration and request reasons why Student X was picked over Student Y.
 
tool said:
Please explain your logic. Is it our responsibility to question why certain classmates were accepted to medical school? Maybe I should go to administration and request reasons why Student X was picked over Student Y.


Aaaahhhh! I am being dragged back in! :(

The issue at hand affects the standards by which our school is judged. The school can choose to do whatever it likes, no matter what the NBOME decides. What is most disturbing to me is that this person actually planned to cheat--they would have had to bring a review book along on testing day and sneak it into the bathroom. This is among the lowest kind of behavior I can think of for a future physician. It means that they have low enough standards that they could risk tarnishing the name of our school and their whole future to get a few points ahead to get a better shot a that residency at Hopkins or UCSF or whatever. It says they are willing to put themselves above the principles of honesty and decency upon which the medical profession (and society in general--as evidenced by the demise of folks like Richard Nixon and Marths Stewart) is founded...all for some small amount of personal gain.

Get all wrapped up in procedure and theory if you like. The fact is, we were told on day one that academic dishonesty would not be tolerated. Clearly it has been tolerated to some point. The NBOME does NOT in fact have the final say: the school does. The school can expell anyone for good reason--it has internal committees that decide such things. (See the case at Western earlier in the thread). I find it hypocritical that we are fed this line about professionalism but when someone on the dean's list cheats on the COMLEX, they look the other way and defer to the NBOME.

And yes, Tool, this is a public forum. It's a discussion among people who will be colleagues someday. I personally think it is good to discuss such things and stretch our minds a little to consider the implications of dishonesty on the profession. This is far more than gawking. It is about listening to others' opinions, considering them, and giving our own opinions. Not every discussion has to end in a solution, as Idiopathic alluded to earlier. Opinions have been expressed here that have made me think about the issue in a different way, and while I might still disagree, it is the consideration of other viewpoints that is the inherent value in such a discussion.

Stretching the mind and questioning authority are GOOD things. ;)
 
sophiejane said:
The fact is, we were told on day one that academic dishonesty would not be tolerated. Clearly it has been tolerated to some point.

Stretching the mind and questioning authority are GOOD things. ;)

Though usually those who question authority are doing so in order to prevent abuses of authority; in this case, those questioning authority would rather that there was a little more abuse.

And as for this whole line about tolerating/excusing cheating, I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why a less-than-maximum penalty is de facto tolerance of the act. And why should these standards stop at ethical lapses? Why not extend them to every measure of professional caliber? Some would argue that letting folks with a 24 MCAT into med school is a dangerous sort of tolerance that leads to less competent doctors. Wouldn't we be better off having fewer physicians than having physicians who didn't manage to score above the average? Perhaps we can expel everyone in the bottom 10% of the class after each year--I'd rather have coffee with someone at the bottom of the class who's never cheated, but when I need to see a doctor, I'll choose the top-of-the-classer who made an ethical lapse half a decade ago.

If your real concern is professional competence, there are plenty of things we could do to improve that, though it would be at the expense of the number of graduating docs, and definitely at the expense of the number of graduating DOs and the overall benefit that physicians have to society.

Seems pretty clear to me, though, that the most virulent complaints come from people whose senses of piety are offended. As far as that goes, I'd be just as willing to have someone of such unnuanced harshness for my doc as someone who looked at a review book in the bathroom on their step one. They'll probably both make excellent docs, but like all of us, have a few discernment issues that need worked out first.
 
Well said LukeWhite......you make excellent points my friend.
 
Top