someone at my school cheated on the COMLEX and....

[jhug]

Seems to me the school has to decide between a little mercy for someone who's more than likely now to do some sort of primary care, or an expulsion that will benefit no one and nothing but his classmates' somewhat overwrought sense of vengeance.

i don't think this issue has anything to do with vengeance, or specialty.... this student, for whatever reason, made the conscious, premeditated decision to cheat on a national exam. If you cheat in buisness, you should lose your ability to do buisness...the day we send martha stewart to jail is the day people should realize that NO ONE is above the consequence of their actions...this person cheated and should not be allowed to continue their education. i would expect no less if i was in this students position...

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[LukeWhite]

i don't think this issue has anything to do with vengeance, or specialty.... this student, for whatever reason, made the conscious, premeditated decision to cheat on a national exam. If you cheat in buisness, you should lose your ability to do buisness...the day we send martha stewart to jail is the day people should realize that NO ONE is above the consequence of their actions...this person cheated and should not be allowed to continue their education. i would expect no less if i was in this students position...

I think there is a bit of vengeance going on...

"such a slap in the face to the rest of us,"
"you should ostracize him/her,"
"made to sit in the front of the class with a big dunce cap on,"

Concern for future patients came into the mix a bit later. I'm not saying people aren't genuinely concerned for the well-being of future patients, but it does seem as if the indignation is getting a bit ahead of itself.

Doctors have to do some pretty miserable stuff to permanently lose their license to practice; I'm unpersuaded cheating on the COMLEX crosses that bar. A lot of people are contending that someone who cheats on the COMLEX simply can't be trusted with patients...I think that has yet to be demonstrated.

 

[jhug]

I think there is a bit of vengeance going on...
"such a slap in the face to the rest of us,"
"you should ostracize him/her,"
"made to sit in the front of the class with a big dunce cap on,"

lw, i do agree with you that there has been vengeance shown on this thread...what i was trying to say is that the emotion of this students classmates should not be the driving force behind the discipline i feel this student should receive.
i also agree that doctors have to really screw up to lose license...like cheating on billing...over-billing to cover up for the lack of reimbursement...it's only fair right?...you get stressed, have a mortgage to pay, kids to feed, cars to pay for...so what is stretching the truth about what you really do to a patient...we'll it's cheating, or stealing, either way it's wrong.
I would NEVER go as far as to say that this student would ever do something like this...but who would have thought he/she would cheat on the boards?

 

[LukeWhite]

Here's a quick overview of disciplinary action against doctors:
http://www.mercola.com/fcgi/pf/2000/aug/20/dangerous_doctors.htm

The folks putting the product behind this out seem to agree that doctors should receive harsh penalties for misconduct, but you've got to do WAY more than cheating on billing to lose a license.

Medical boards pretty much universally give bad doctors lots of leeway. I doubt this is out of mercy; rather, society gets a lot of benefit out of even most bad doctors. Maybe the case can be made that it's more than the doc deserves, but there's some broad consensus that this is the best way to go.

It seems right that the school and the exam board have dealt with the student consistently with how docs fare in practice, both good and mal- (and maybe even more harshly since he's not presently contributing his skills to society). There's certainly room for a different opinion, but the fate of bad doctors supports rather than undercuts the school's decision. It's not necessarily always in everyone's best interests to match the degree of penalty with that of the wrong.

 

[tool]

It's not the students' responsibility to interfere with the disciplinary actions of the school. Sure you have a right to your opinion but keep in mind many others don't share that same viewpoint. You people need to step back and realize the student has been punished as deemed fit by the school/NBOME. I am appalled by some of the hateful comments rendered on this thread. Hopefully, you'll show more compassion to your patients than you have to a fellow colleague that made a mistake.

 

[sophiejane]

Tool,

This is just a discussion. Nobody said anything (at least not on my end) about interfering with any decision made by the administration. Just because I disagree with it and think it was wrong doesn't mean I am going to try to do anything to change it. This is a forum...meaning a place where people discuss ideas.

As for making a "mistake"...well, that was a pretty big one. It's not like we are in 3rd grade and we are still learning right from wrong. This was planned, predmeditated, and done with full understanding that it was wrong. Otherwise, they would have been sitting outside the testing room with their review book rather than hiding in the bathroom. All I am saying is that in my humble opinion, the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

As for compassion...I think it shows a lack of compassion for patients to NOT expell this individual. It says that someone's personal gain is more important than having honest, trustworthy doctors to treat our patients.

 

[Amy B]

I don't think people are being hateful, but rather they are being outraged that they worked hard, studied hard and someone else tried to take the easy way out. The reason it is upsetting is that the doctors should have a high integrity level.

While I was working at a free health clinic there was an incident involving 3 med students. One of them broke the handle off one of the beds. Rather than come to the director and tell her it was broken (which happens when you have donated beds), the 3 of them tried to cover it up. When it was discovered, they wouldn't say what happened or who did it. It took the director of their program to get to the bottom of the incident. It was found out that 2 of them were fooling around and broke it. If they would cover up who broke a bed, what else would they cover up that would be more serious. Same goes for cheating, if someone is willing to make a conscious decision to cheat, what else are they willing to do all in favor of themselves and their own personal gain.

It is just plain wrong no matter what the reason

And for people here to say that this person will probably get a rural prctice because that is the bottom of the barrel and they will take anyone is an insult to those of us who want to be rural family docs.

 

[LukeWhite]

And for people here to say that this person will probably get a rural prctice because that is the bottom of the barrel and they will take anyone is an insult to those of us who want to be rural family docs.

So far, Amy, I'm the only one who's said that, and I'm as set on going into rural family practice as anyone.

This is what bugs me about this discussion--a good portion of those weighing in are way too quick to be insulted and outraged. You seem to be saying, like Sophie, that you'd be ashamed to call this cheater a colleague, and that you're insulted by the very idea that someone who cheated would end up by default in the field you've chosen.

Well, so what? With all due respect to those who have talked about how this makes them feel, it's not about you. This is a situation in which a school has to resolve how they can best serve society, balancing the dire need for doctors with the need to punish a cheater. Whatever you think of their choice, how it makes you or I feel is totally irrelevant.

Underserved/rural med is by definition the bottom of the barrel, and a clinic without a doctor is of course going to take whomever they can get. It's admirable you want to go into the field; I do too. But for those quick to take offense when reminded that their chosen specialty is the least desirable and that plenty of doctors end up there because they have nowhere else to turn...you might have a bit more peace of mind as a dermatologist.

 

[Fermata]

My thinking is this:

Cheating is a risk.

He/she got busted...and hence should face the consequences.

Medicine already has enough problems without stories like this digging into its integrity.

 

[Boomer]

With all due respect, my mother lives in some "no-name community." Personally, I don't want someone taking care of her if that someone felt the need to cheat on their board exam. Do you want someone like that providing care to your loved ones, Luke? I sure as hell don't. Or, what about the first time you get sued? Do you want your attorney to say, "Uh, I don't know what to do next, I used a cheat sheet on the bar." How about when you're 50 and starting to close in on retirement from your rewarding career in rural medicine, do you want a CPA taking care of your finances that cheated on the certifying exam? "I'm sorry Dr. White, but I didn't know what to do...looks like you need to work until you're 75."

If this person is willing to cheat on something that is known to be monitored as closely as the COMLEX, what do you think s/he'll do when big brother isn't lurking in the hallway?

And, yes Luke, this affects YOU as well. The COMLEX is your avenue to medical licensure as a DO. I would like to think that the administrators of an exam that certifies our capability to practice MEDICINE, would not stand for ANY form of academic dishonesty.

Anyone here believe that cheating on COMLEX is the first time this individual has ever cheated on anything at the college level or above? Did s/he cheat during first two years of med school? On the MCAT? To get that magical 3.5 to get into med school? I'm willing to forgive youthful transgressions, but that has to stop at some point. If an adult student is willing to behave in this manner, then we have crossed the point at which we are no longer discussing "youthful transgressions."

 

[LukeWhite]

With all due respect, my mother lives in some "no-name community."

..as does mine, myself, and the rest of my family. There seems to be some confusion between the desirability of a place and the worth of the place itself. Underserved communities are generally undesirable places to practice; that's why they're underserved. Obviously, no one's saying that this makes them of any less value.

To answer the question: I'd prefer that my family be treated by a doctor who cheated on the COMLEX than by no one at all, or have to travel fifty miles to see the doc-who-presumably-never-cheated. As for your other examples, they're unrealistic. A few people manage to cheat their way to positions of authority even though incompetent; this is the exception. The vast majority of people who cheat and still succeed in their careers are otherwise very competent. This student is a pefect example; we've already been told by one of their observant classmates that they're near the top of the class.

Is it possible to cheat one's way to the top of the class? Maybe, but it's far more likely that this person knows their stuff and made a significant ethical lapse. If they're incapable of competent practice, that will be evident sooner rather than later.

As for whether it affects me or anyone else:

And, yes Luke, this affects YOU as well. The COMLEX is your avenue to medical licensure as a DO. I would like to think that the administrators of an exam that certifies our capability to practice MEDICINE, would not stand for ANY form of academic dishonesty.

I don't see how that affects anyone else. What others score are important only to the degree that you're competing against them and to the degree that the exam is taken seriously. This person's not going to be competing with anyone, and an isolated (and caught) instance of cheating will do nothing to the exam's integrity. It seems to me this is another example of a rationale that has to more to do with personal pride of integrity than the practicalities of getting physicians into service. The former's great, but on balance not as important as the latter.

 

[cooldreams]

hmm, and i assume you are an expert as to why rural fp is the "bottom of the barrel" in medicine, no? i want to do fp, rural fp would be even better in my eyes, and i think is shows very poorly about you for saying anything bad about it. the nicest docs i know are in it, and meanest i know are in the so called "glorious" fields. there is a lot more to life than to try to make yourself look good in front of ppl. continuing on this track will set you up for a very poor and miserable life indeed.

"This is a situation in which a school has to resolve how they can best serve society" are you kidding me?!?! medicine is a respected profession because of the very tough schooling and sacrifices made. this individual obviously does not understand that, and so should not be allowed to call him/herself a doctor.

get a backbone and grow up. when ppl take the easy way out, IT DOES HURT OTHER PEOPLE! why in the world would you defend that cheater?? maybe you have cheated yourself, and are now trying to defend it?? hmmm??

So far, Amy, I'm the only one who's said that, and I'm as set on going into rural family practice as anyone.

This is what bugs me about this discussion--a good portion of those weighing in are way too quick to be insulted and outraged. You seem to be saying, like Sophie, that you'd be ashamed to call this cheater a colleague, and that you're insulted by the very idea that someone who cheated would end up by default in the field you've chosen.

Well, so what? With all due respect to those who have talked about how this makes them feel, it's not about you. This is a situation in which a school has to resolve how they can best serve society, balancing the dire need for doctors with the need to punish a cheater. Whatever you think of their choice, how it makes you or I feel is totally irrelevant.

Underserved/rural med is by definition the bottom of the barrel, and a clinic without a doctor is of course going to take whomever they can get. It's admirable you want to go into the field; I do too. But for those quick to take offense when reminded that their chosen specialty is the least desirable and that plenty of doctors end up there because they have nowhere else to turn...you might have a bit more peace of mind as a dermatologist.

 

[Boomer]

.. an isolated (and caught) instance of cheating will do nothing to the exam's integrity.

An isolated instance of cheating ITSELF does not harm the exam's integrity.

However, allowing a person who was caught cheating to retake said exam DOES harm the integrity.

The effect on you is that the administrators of your licensing exam are being to shown to look the other way when a candidate has KNOWINGLY cheated on their exam. To me, and to many others apparently, this degrades the value of the exam.

I'm certain people cheat on their board exams yearly. It's a fact of life in a competitive field such as medicine. That doesn't make it right. And, that doesn't justify allowing a known cheater to retake the test.

Again, if knowingly cheating on the COMLEX, and getting caught, and being allowed to retake the exam is acceptable, then explain to me why I should study for Step 3 coming up, instead of taking the chance of cheating. If I do this, by your logic that I should be given another chance, then the only two possible outcomes are:

1. I cheat. Get away with it. I'm done with COMLEX (and now, mind you, eligible for full licensure).

2. I cheat. Get caught. Point to this example that they MUST allow me to retake. Study. Pass. And now, mind you, eligible for full licensure.

Do you trust me to take care of your family?????

 

[Boomer]

Hey Luke, if "personal pride of integrity" is unimportant in the medical field, then how did you address the question of honor on AZCOM's secondary? Or was that question only there when I applied?

 

[jf]

Just my 2 cents!

This person shamed his entire school by his act of cheating. Under no circumstances should this person be allowed to continue at his medical school, nor be allowed to retake the COMLEX exam. The thought of this person actually becoming a physician is very concerning. What other aspects of life will this person be dishonest and unethical about?

This act sets a dangerous precedent in the medical field. Why not cheat on your board exams, if you can use this incident as a precedent? Best case scenario, you pass/ace your exam and not get caught. Worse case scenario, you get caught and have to repeat a year of training.

I certainly hope that there will be a bold note in his transcript/ERAS application indicating this incident. It should be a real piece of cake to get a residency spot with this type of information on your application.

For those of you that think this is a harsh response or perhaps think that we should get to know this individual before labeling him, my reply is:

I would not want to know such an individual!!!!! Unless someone was holding a gun to your head and forcing you to cheat, there is no other acceptable reason for doing so. If he wasn't prepared for the exam, he should have postponed.

 

[cooldreams]

sooner member

dood... seriously... whats a "sooner" i dont get it?? heheh

 

[MacGyver]

it's all about money. the school wants the tuition.

Bingo! we have a winner.

DO schools dont get the same government financial support that MD schools get, they dont have the same financial resources that large academic medical centers have (which are usually affiliated with MD schools).

It is a fact that DO schools are MUCH MORE DEPENDENT on tuition money than MD schools are; therefore its logical that they are willing to go thru extreme measures to keep tuition paying students in school.

 

[cooldreams]

lol.. i was wondering when the us news ranking slave would bare himself hehe

 

[OldMarriedFart]

Mac,


Dude, it is a STATE supported school. Did you miss that post. Oh, I'll be the one to call out the school. From what I can surmise, we are talking about the University of North Texas Health Sciences Center at Fort Worth - Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine. Very unfortunate if this is true. The school has been trying to compete with the allopathic schools in Texas for the past eight years to the point they are passing on candidates who wish to be DO's first.

Needless to say, this really makes me mad. My wife is an alumnus and she is concerned.

 

[tool]

I was a classmate of the person we're talking about and can confirm that they are at the top of the class. I do believe the pressure of the exam got to them as he/she realized how important the results are in order to attain a top residency. I'm fully satisfied with the punishment that was handed down and have no doubt that this person will make an excellent physician.

Lastly, while many of you think it's an open and shut case....we don't know all the details. In addition when stating your opinions in the future it's wise to refrain from name calling.

 

[OldMarriedFart]

Tool,

Ahh, the pressure of boards. Does the phrase academic dishonesty mean nothing to you. This person should have known the consequences of cheating and getting caught. How do you think this will affect their chances of getting ino a "top" residency program. Hopefully, this will be in the Medical Student Performance Evaluation. I do not know any program that will look positively on the person's actions.

Still, through vicarious experiences (my wife is a Chief in OB/GYN), the pressure of boards is a poor excuse to cheat. This person will never make it in the pressure cooker situations presented during residency of they feel they have to cheat to get ahead. Cheating is not the way to cope with stress.


Furthermore, I have absolutely no tolerance for this kind of action. I can guarantee you that my school would have released this individual from the "pressure" of ever having to take boards again.

 

[Medikit]

it's all about money. the school wants the tuition.

I agree with this.

 

[sophiejane]

Bingo! we have a winner.

DO schools dont get the same government financial support that MD schools get, they dont have the same financial resources that large academic medical centers have (which are usually affiliated with MD schools).

It is a fact that DO schools are MUCH MORE DEPENDENT on tuition money than MD schools are; therefore its logical that they are willing to go thru extreme measures to keep tuition paying students in school.

Another brilliant post by MacGyver, who loves to pipe in when DO schools and money come up. To reiterate: this is a state-sponsored school and we get the same money per student as UTMB Galveston, UT San Antonio, etc...It's mandated BY THE STATE. Show me that this happens more often at DO schools, MacGyver, and I'll give you this one. But you won't be able to do it.

I am certain that percentage wise, there are just as many similar cases in allopathic schools--they probably just get brushed under the rug. The administration made this public by making the student write an apology--they aren't hiding any ulterior motives. The just made a poor decision in my opinion.

 

[MacGyver]

Another brilliant post by MacGyver, who loves to pipe in when DO schools and money come up. To reiterate: this is a state-sponsored school and we get the same money per student as UTMB Galveston, UT San Antonio, etc...It's mandated BY THE STATE. Show me that this happens more often at DO schools, MacGyver, and I'll give you this one. But you won't be able to do it.

I am certain that percentage wise, there are just as many similar cases in allopathic schools--they probably just get brushed under the rug. The administration made this public by making the student write an apology--they aren't hiding any ulterior motives. The just made a poor decision in my opinion.

Oh please get a clue. Whats TCOM's level of NIH funding compared to the allopathic texas schools?

Its not just about state government funding, its also about NIH funding, which DIRECTLY SUPPORTS MEDICAL STUDENT TRAINING.

IN case you didnt know, NIH grants dont support just research. There's always extra "institutional" money thrown in with each grant that the medical school gets to use for whatever they want. Allopathic med schools use NIH grants not only to fund research, but to fund medical student education as well.

 

[stinkycheese]

A lot of people are focusing on the issue that the student should have thought about the consequences of cheating and realized that it was not worth it... to me, this is a correct perspective, but I spin it a little differently. The student shouldn't feel badly for being caught, he should feel badly for committing the act. His decision to cheat should not have been informed by his reflections on what would happen if he got caught, but on whether there is anything so important that it would justify dishonesty on such an important test. Trying and falling short is far more honorable than cheating and passing. Similarly, trying and doing "okay" is better than cheating and doing super.

To most rational people, cheating is not an option. It concerns me that this person did not have an inner alarm going off telling him to consider whether anything is as important as an honest score. What stops the rest of us from caving to temptation under pressure? The gut feeling that we want to do what is right, not what is easy. I rely on that feeling when under questionable circumstances, and I would expect my colleagues to rely on similar senses of integrity in difficult situations. It appears that this person does not have an internal sensor, and cannot balance right and wrong. This is not the kind of person we want practicing medicine of any kind in any location. While it may be true that rural residencies are easier to get, this doesn't change the job description; if anything, the responsibility is greater in a rural setting because physicians are a commodity.

On another note, I think the debate that has ensued about rural practice is misguided; both sides are essentially saying similar things, but are not listening to each other. No one believes that rural practice is not honorable, difficult, or an excellent field. However, underserved communities are, by definition, less desirable places to practice. That is why some schmo with a poor record (that includes cheating) may end up in a rural practice. I personally do not think that this student should become a physician, and I don't think he is better serving society by practicing anywhere, including an underserved community. The fact of the matter is, he doesn't have an internal sense of right and wrong. Can this experience be a lesson to him? Sure. But isn't it suspect that someone over 24 years of age would need to be learning these lessons at this time? And consequently, doesn't this mean that these lessons might never be learned if they haven't been ingrained already?

I would be upset if this happened at my school, too, Sophiejane, and I think it is an injustice that this student is continuing in his medical education.

 

[sophiejane]

Like I said, prove to me that there is more cheating on COMLEX than USMLE Step I that is allowed to slide and I will give you this one. We are not debating funding, we are talking about your claim that lack of funding causes more DO schools to let cheaters stay in school. I really want to know if this is true. You seem to know a lot, so go for it. Let's see some hard evidence.

 

[ASDIC]

I was wondering how they can catch cheaters in the bathroom...what happened to privacy? Do they have a proctor in the bathrooms?

 

[DrMom]

They probably went to check...especially if he took a while. We had enough proctors that they certainly could have done this, although I don't know if they did. They only allowed one person of each gender to go to the bathroom at a time and it would have been obvious if someone were gone for a long time as there often was another person waiting.

 

[BlueFalcon]

To answer the question: I'd prefer that my family be treated by a doctor who cheated on the COMLEX than by no one at all, or have to travel fifty miles to see the doc-who-presumably-never-cheated.

Yeah, the great doctor shortage... Give me a break. There are very FEW places in the continental United States where people would have to travel fifty miles to see a physician. And if they do, big deal. You can drive 50 miles in 40 minutes. If you don't value your health enough to go through that minor inconvenience, then you just don't value your health. And where did this ******ed assumption come from that this turd is going to plug the gaps in the leaky dike that is rural medicine?

As for your other examples, they're unrealistic. A few people manage to cheat their way to positions of authority even though incompetent; this is the exception.

They're the exception at leat in part because people have an expecation that they will be slapped down if they are caught cheating. Physicians are not dockworkers or car wash attendants. Reluctantly or not, society places a huge amount of trust in us. Abusing this trust in whatever form or fashion is one of the highest sins we can commit as physicians. Some of us aren't worthy of that trust, and when we find out who those people are, we should relieve them of the opportunity to abuse that trust.

Is it possible to cheat one's way to the top of the class? Maybe, but it's far more likely that this person knows their stuff and made a significant ethical lapse.

Right you are. And they should have expected to be expelled if they were caught. I certainly would have. It's a logical and reasonable conclusion.

It seems to me this is another example of a rationale that has to more to do with personal pride of integrity than the practicalities of getting physicians into service. The former's great, but on balance not as important as the latter.

I agree that the practicalities of getting physicians into service take precedence, but we're not talking about expelling 10,000 medical students who cheated. We're talking about one turd. And I think preserving the integrity of the COMLEX, the school and the profession should take precedence here. It's not as if there's this grave shortage of practicing physicians in the US. When's the last time you talked to someone who couldn't find a doctor?

 

[LukeWhite]

BlueFalcon,

It's not as if there's this grave shortage of physicians

Er, yes, there is. A quick google search on "physician shortage" will turn up some very good articles right near the top, if you're interested. For a little more depth, you can also go to the NHSC website and take a look at how long some of those positions have been open. The one in American Samoa's been open since I started monitoring them years ago.

I know off the top of my head of one clinic that has to rotate physicians into the surrounding villages because of geographic limitations and manpower issues. Further, distance-to-treatment isn't the only problem in underserved areas; I'm sure you know all the others. Regardless, it's statistically more likely that someone at the bottom of their class will go into a noncompetitive (read, more-likely-than-not-underserved) FP or other primary care spot. This particular student is near the top of their class, and will I imagine make an exceptionally competent physician, and perhaps after this even a humble one, which judging by the thread here is a quality in short supply.

Boomer,

I don't recall saying that a sense of integrity is unimportant; rather, satisfying that sense in a bunch of outraged med students is less important than getting physicians into practice. That seems self-evident to me. As for why you shouldn't cheat on your boards if the penalty is (as you seem to think) pretty minor, I'm sure you can think of a few, integrity not least among them. I should think that an ethical med student would avoid cheating regardless of the severity of the penalties. If you're one of them, good; his penalty doesn't affect you.

and finally, cooldreams,

I'd encourage you to read over my posts again, if you have in fact read them. I haven't said anything "bad" about rural family practice. Underserved areas are generally undesirable places to practice; that's why they're underserved. That's definition, not aspersion.

As for why I'm "defending this loser": not my focus; I'm defending the school's/NBOME's decision, which seems to me a pretty good balance between justice and pragmatism. I do think, however, that it's rather on the judgmental side to condemn a person of whom you know almost nothing. I'm defending this person because I know of good doctors who have been pilloried for isolated mistakes, often unrelated to the safety of their patients. Mercy's not just for those who deserve it.

And to address your not-so-subtle suggestion that any defense of this student is a desire to justify one's own cheating, well, I wouldn't be a very good cheater if I drew attention to myself like that, eh? Besides, I've fortunately no pressure to make that ethical lapse--being set on rural FP, high grades and good board scores are luxuries, not necessities.

 

[Idiopathic]

They probably went to check...especially if he took a while. We had enough proctors that they certainly could have done this, although I don't know if they did. They only allowed one person of each gender to go to the bathroom at a time and it would have been obvious if someone were gone for a long time as there often was another person waiting.

Do you think they caught this person? It is my guess that he/she turned himself/herself in, and that is why the NBOME is perhaps being lenient. Remember, if the NBOME said he couldnt sit for the exam, the school wouldnt allow him back, so who is really the ultimate authority. If the NBOME decided that they would allow him to sit for Step 1 again, why shouldnt the school allow him back?

 

[DrMom]

Do you think they caught this person? It is my guess that he/she turned himself/herself in, and that is why the NBOME is perhaps being lenient. Remember, if the NBOME said he couldnt sit for the exam, the school wouldnt allow him back, so who is really the ultimate authority. If the NBOME decided that they would allow him to sit for Step 1 again, why shouldnt the school allow him back?

Why would they turn themselves in if they weren't caught?

 

[Idiopathic]

Why would they turn themselves in if they weren't caught?

Conscience

(thats the thing just to the left of your soul)

 

[EvoDevo]

Conscience

(thats the thing just to the left of your soul)

But that assumes that she HAS one.......

 

[BlueFalcon]

Mr. Luke,

Top of the list article from Google Search of "physician shortage":

Identifying the problem, however, may be far easier than solving it. Most people agree that the shortages are less an issue of not enough doctors in the country and more an issue of not enough doctors in certain areas.

"Even if we do increase the number of physicians who are in the country, the problem of physician maldistribution will exist unless we address that," said Rajam Ramamurthy, MD, a pediatrician in San Antonio and a delegate from the International Medical Graduates Section. "We can have 5,000 more doctors, and they would all be crowded in the metropolitan areas."

The fact that a position in American Samoa (did you really cite a job in American Samoa to back up your claims of a US physician shortage?) hasn't been filled since you started checking the list means only that physicans aren't willing to take the job - nothing more. And thanks but I'll pass on checking out the National Health Service Corps website vacancies as evidence of a physician shortage. It's merely proof that physicians (even the cheaters among them) have some sense.

 

[Boomer]

I doubt that someone who would go out of their way to cheat would have enough conscience to turn oneself in...

 

[stoic]

I'm honestly quite surprised that this discussion is still continuing. This person should not be allowed to take the exam again. They cheated on a licensing exam. I don't know what's much more black and white than that... and I'm one of those people who spends a lot of time in the grey.

S

 

[Idiopathic]

Well, I was at first black and white on this issue too, but if the national licensing board decided that the student could sit for the exam again, who are we to argue?

 

[LukeWhite]

Falcon, weren't you just saying that there's not a problem with the geographic distribution of docs? The quote you posted seems to run counter to that.

It's merely proof that physicians (even the cheaters among them) have some sense.

Hm, if that's not a comment lovingly handcrafted to bait, I don't know what is. Regardless, saying that physicians we have just aren't apportioned properly is the same thing as saying we don't have enough physicians. Specialty switches are awfully rare, and the physician pop. is generally locked in to where it is.

Which ties into the case at hand: this student's going to have a hard time getting a competitive specialty. Specialties generally become competitive because their salary-to-work ratio is high. This student will likely be forced to do what many do on their own volition: choose a specialty lighter on the salary, heavier on the work. Given where the health shortages are, this will probably benefit public health more than if said student had stayed competitive and landed an already-glutted specialty.

Is it possible he'll somehow escape this tangled web of public service and rise into a position of exalted redundancy? Maybe. On the whole, though, it seems inevitable that giving wrongdoers a second chance will lead to a bit more primary care coverage than we'd otherwise have.

 

[BlueFalcon]

Well, I was at first black and white on this issue too, but if the national licensing board decided that the student could sit for the exam again, who are we to argue?

If a jury of his peers decided that OJ was innocent, who are we to argue?

 

[Boomer]

Well, I was at first black and white on this issue too, but if the national licensing board decided that the student could sit for the exam again, who are we to argue?

We are the people who pay 300 to 500 bucks per step of this exam. We are the people who are awarded medical licenses based on the scores from this national licensing board. We are the people who will/may be working alongside this assclown....

That's who we are to argue. I would think someone who obviously worked as hard as yourself to attain such a high score on this exam would be outraged as well....my step one score was nowhere near yours, but this situation still pisses me off....

 

[cooldreams]

If a jury of his peers decided that OJ was innocent, who are we to argue?

well duh.. we're just your average, stupid, highly educated individuals...

 

[tool]

We are the people who pay 300 to 500 bucks per step of this exam. We are the people who are awarded medical licenses based on the scores from this national licensing board. We are the people who will/may be working alongside this assclown....

That's who we are to argue. I would think someone who obviously worked as hard as yourself to attain such a high score on this exam would be outraged as well....my step one score was nowhere near yours, but this situation still pisses me off....

There's one major flaw with your argument. Usually a jury renders a verdict based on the facts presented......in this case we don't have any.......only pure speculation. One might even go as far as calling the juror that reached a guilty verdict w/o having the facts an assclown.

 

[Boomer]

There's one major flaw with your argument. Usually a jury renders a verdict based on the facts presented......in this case we don't have any.......only pure speculation. One might even go as far as calling the juror that reached a guilty verdict w/o having the facts an assclown.

1. Numb nuts, I didn't use the jury analogy.

2. I think it's been pretty clearly established that this person IS known to have cheated on their BOARD EXAM.

3. It is our right to know that the agency certifying our board scores is holding all of us to the highest standards.

 

[tool]

1. Numb nuts, I didn't use the jury analogy.

2. I think it's been pretty clearly established that this person IS known to have cheated on their BOARD EXAM.

3. It is our right to know that the agency certifying our board scores is holding all of us to the highest standards.

Numb nuts....that's a good one.....now the true challenge is for you to use that and assclown in a sentence. You'll get mad props if you can pull that off.

While you might have not have directly made the jury analogy my point is still valid.....you can't criticize a decision w/o knowing the pertinent facts. Using your logic everything is either black or white with no room for anything in between.

 

[Boomer]

Here's my sentence:

"Some numb nuts keeps coming to the defense of a known assclown."

OK back to the point at hand. Not everything in the world is black and white. However, some aspects of life are in fact more important, and are more highly scrutinized, as well they should be. This is one of those instances.

Most all med schools talk tough about academic dishonesty and show zero tolerance--I would assume TCOM has a similar policy in place. I would HOPE that NBOME has the same view as well, but this is apparently not the case, eh?

 

[LukeWhite]

3. It is our right to know that the agency certifying our board scores is holding all of us to the highest standards.

I'm curious as to why people seem to think that "highest standards" implies "harshest penalty." Why stop at expulsion when we can cut off the cheating hand?

 

[jhug]

you can't criticize a decision w/o knowing the pertinent facts

sincerely, what other facts are there to know?
obviously you know this person, have gone through what i have with my classmates and you bet i'd go to bat for them in time of need/trial...that's what friends are for. i imagine you are shocked about this as we are.
but what else is there to know...did he/she read from a review book (cheat) during a national exam?...what other factors could possbly come into play here...did someone tell the student it was ok, did someone make the student do it, did the student not know that this was considered cheating? there may be answers that would change a lot of opinions here...i doubt we'll ever know them (and it really doesn't matter)
i feel for this student, i feel for his/her classmates...he/she made a rediculously foolish decision and now is paying the consequence decided upon...hopefully this student has learned from it and suprise some people by being a respectable, honest physician.

 

[Boomer]

I'm curious as to why people seem to think that "highest standards" implies "harshest penalty." Why stop at expulsion when we can cut off the cheating hand?

I'm curious as to why people seem to think that it's ok to cheat on a board exam and be given a second chance. Why stop at board exams, when you can cheat your entire way through school?

 

[mbhbrown]

ok, everybody needs to go have a beer, and cut the legs off of this one. oh ya lance armstrong still kicks ass!