Some Tips RE: What Not to Do. Signed, ProgCoordinator

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atach said:
pc,

how many programs do you suggest we contact at this point (email-wise)? top 3 sound reasonable?
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Top three sounds fine. Please don't lie to anyone. :luck:
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greenline312 said:
PC,

Thanks for your advice on here. I had a couple of questions. Do some programs have a policy against contacting applicants? If not, would you take it as a bad sign if you got no response from a program you sent an email to? Also, can you send too many love letters to your top program?

thanks
Click to expand...

I can't imagine that a program would have a policy against contacting candidates. A program will reach out to some of their high interest candidates to get a feel for what they're thinking and to let them know that the program is very interested and likely to rank within matching range.

Not all top candidates will get called/emailed. If you've already let it be known to a program that they are your first choice you probably won't get a warm and fuzzy correspondence because they already know where they stand with you.

Just because a program hasn't yet replied to your email doesn't mean that they won't, but if it's been more than 2 weeks they probably won't. If you never hear from them it's a sign that they're rude. Period. Beyond that (generally speaking) it could be a sign that they're not planning to rank you in their top tier of candidates.

Yes, a candidate can send too many love letters. One mustn't become a nuisance or appear to be desperate. Nuance is far more important than effusiveness in this game. If you've sent more than two cards or emails...stop right now.

:luck:
 
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I actually told the last place I interviewed at that they were my number 1, but I never got a response in return. I sent the pd a thank you and told them they were number 1. I guess I was just trying to figure out if I should send another email reaffirming my interest now that I have sent in my rank list.
 
greenline312 said:
I actually told the last place I interviewed at that they were my number 1, but I never got a response in return. I sent the pd a thank you and told them they were number 1. I guess I was just trying to figure out if I should send another email reaffirming my interest now that I have sent in my rank list.
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If they didnt respond to your email telling them that they r ur number 1 ,it is actually a bad sign and i would wait for a bit though,(not more than a week)to hear from them,
if you dont ,i would change my rank list and choose another program as a number 1 since the chance to match at theirs is pretty low to nill
 
greenline312 said:
I actually told the last place I interviewed at that they were my number 1, but I never got a response in return. I sent the pd a thank you and told them they were number 1. I guess I was just trying to figure out if I should send another email reaffirming my interest now that I have sent in my rank list.
Click to expand...


Did you send them a card/letter or an email?
If card/letter...it's not a huge deal that you haven't heard back.
If an email...it's pretty rude that you didn't get any response at all and it may be a sign that they're not going to drop to one knee and ask you to marry them. Don't reach out to them again.

Did you send the love letter much earlier in the season (Jan-Mar) AND was it before you were finished with your interviews?
If yes to BOTH...you can send one more correspondence in which you tell them that, after having now completed all of your interviews, you would like to reiterate your love for them.
If no to either...don't write to them again.


:luck:
 
I sent it in April. They finished interviewing and so did I. It was also an email. I have received responses from most the places I interviewed, except the one I told I was ranking first. Its like being rejected by girl. At least I have gotten positive responses from numbers 2 and 3.
 
greenline312 said:
I sent it in April. They finished interviewing and so did I. It was also an email. I have received responses from most the places I interviewed, except the one I told I was ranking first. Its like being rejected by girl. At least I have gotten positive responses from numbers 2 and 3.
Click to expand...

That's disappointing. Although you may still hear back from them sometime in the next two weeks, don't bank on it. Just rank with your gut and let the chips fall where they may.

:luck:
 
I felt really good at my interview and knew right away it was number one. Now, I am not so sure, if they can't at least say thanks.
 
horserider74 said:
When you say top 3,other than telling the number 1 that its top choice.Can you tell the other two that your ranking them 2 and 3 ?
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You can, but I don't recommended it. Be vague.

"Ranked highly" works. You're not lying or misleading and we know that we're probably not number one.

:luck:
 
ProgCoordinator said:
You can, but I don't recommended it. Be vague.

"Ranked highly" works. You're not lying or misleading and we know that we're probably not number one.

:luck:
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Hi ProgCoordinator
I agree.but if we say ranked highly with 15 program on the list,it cannot differentiate if that program is ranked 2nd or ranked 10th.its all relative.
so whats the best approach to let them know that they are really high on list.
thanks
 
cardsforever said:
Hi ProgCoordinator
I agree.but if we say ranked highly with 15 program on the list,it cannot differentiate if that program is ranked 2nd or ranked 10th.its all relative.
so whats the best approach to let them know that they are really high on list.
thanks
Click to expand...

Of course you shouldn't tell 15 programs that you'll rank them highly. Beyond number 3 or 4, you can say that you enjoyed your visit, like their program, and look forward to ranking them. Or something along those lines. If you have something specific to add for a certain program you should throw it in there.

Honestly, saying #1 or "top of the list" or "ranking highly" and the like won't cause a remarkable impact to their ROL. The most basic goal of this exercise is to let programs know that you remain interested.

:luck:
 
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horserider74 said:
if you dont ,i would change my rank list and choose another program as a number 1 since the chance to match at theirs is pretty low to nill
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Why would you change your rank list...unless it's just an ego thing and you want to say you matched at your "top" program?

If your #1 choice is very unlikley to take you, there is still no advantage to dropping them.
 
I interviewed at only four programs.I emailed all of them saying I would be ranking them and to two of them I told them they are among my top choices. But,None of the programs I corresponded to replied back to me.Does this mean I am unlikely to match this season?
PC does your program replies back to all the applicants or only to those who they want badly?
I am really tensed up.I felt that I nailed the interview ...apparently not.
And is it true that most programs make their mind about the candidate beforehand the interview and rest of interviewees are just a buffer ,incase they don't get their first tier candidate?
I am saying this I felt, I might be wrong, some of the program were really trying to court few selected candidates.
 
ProgCoordinator said:
Of course you shouldn't tell 15 programs that you'll rank them highly. Beyond number 3 or 4, you can say that you enjoyed your visit, like their program, and look forward to ranking them. Or something along those lines. If you have something specific to add for a certain program you should throw it in there.

Honestly, saying #1 or "top of the list" or "ranking highly" and the like won't cause a remarkable impact to their ROL. The most basic goal of this exercise is to let programs know that you remain interested.

:luck:
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Hi PC
I told my first choice program that I have ranked them extremely high.
do you think thats fine or I should have told them that they are my rank one,
I dont want them to think that they didnt make the cut and that I am not ranking them number one?
I appreciate your thougths
 
Hi ProgramCoordinator
I have a question.
when a PD replies to my interest email telling them that i am ranking them number one with only "Best of luck in the match"
What does that mean?is it a nice way to tell me that they are not interested in and that they are not going to rank me or what?
thanks
 
cardsforever said:
Hi PC
I told my first choice program that I have ranked them extremely high.
do you think thats fine or I should have told them that they are my rank one,
I dont want them to think that they didnt make the cut and that I am not ranking them number one?
I appreciate your thougths
Click to expand...


If you just told them, then you shouldn't do anything else. Extrememly high is enough for them to know that they're in your top 3. Probably at least #2. If you told them back in March then you can send one more email saying #1.

:luck:
 
horserider74 said:
Hi ProgramCoordinator
I have a question.
when a PD replies to my interest email telling them that i am ranking them number one with only "Best of luck in the match"
What does that mean?is it a nice way to tell me that they are not interested in and that they are not going to rank me or what?
thanks
Click to expand...


Hard to say. It really depends on the PD. Don't change your ROL because of it. Rank how you want to rank.

As a sidenote, unless a candidate is an absolute nightmare (and probably not even then), a program will probably rank every candidate they met. If for no other reason than to see where everyone ends up matching.

:luck:
 
How many people should we have advocate for us to our Program of Choice? Is there too many? Is there too few? Who should? The PD of our home program?
 
Hi Program coordinator,
I told a program that they were my number one but now after talking to few more people, I want to rank them number 2.
What is the best way out of this situation?
Thanks in advance
 
cards2012 said:
Hi Program coordinator,
I told a program that they were my number one but now after talking to few more people, I want to rank them number 2.
What is the best way out of this situation?
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...

It happens. Although it'll be uncomfortable, you should update the program. While some may disagree with me, I offer as an example a situation that we're dealing with right now in our department. Some years ago we had a candidate who we were very interested in. S/he was very interested in us, told us we were #1, and threw in a lovely little snippet about how sincere and honest s/he was about their commitment to our program. Lo and behold, even though we ranked them #1, they didn't match. Fast forward to today and this self-described honorable candidate is currently interested in applying to one of our advanced fellowship programs. We're no longer especially interested. Not because we weren't their first choice, but because they went the extra mile to impress upon us their unreproachable honesty and proved the opposite.

Just be honest with the program. They'll understand and appreciate it.

:luck:
 
tgerwuds said:
How many people should we have advocate for us to our Program of Choice? Is there too many? Is there too few? Who should? The PD of our home program?
Click to expand...

Having your PD reach out to the PD of your #1 will be good. Any of your faculty with ties to anyone on faculty at your #1 can email them. Those correspondences will be forwarded to the PD. No such thing as too few. Too many? Hard to say. You know, if 2 or 3 people contact the program in order to tell them that they're your first choice...that's enough. They'll get it.

:luck:
 
PC
from your experience,does telling the program that they are ur rank one or ur ranking them highly make them do changes in their rank list(moving u up or down the list)?
thanks
 
cardsforever said:
PC
from your experience,does telling the program that they are ur rank one or ur ranking them highly make them do changes in their rank list(moving u up or down the list)?
thanks
Click to expand...

It can, but not necessarily in a remarkable way. Since, we won't know until 6/15 where the cutoff will be for this match, there's no telling whether a single or double bump will make a difference.

All in all, it's nice to have an idea of where we stand, but we rank how we want them. Just as you guys should do.

:luck:
 
Last edited:
Program Coordinator.
thanks for all you advice/input. Your comments have certainly been helpful esp at this stage in the application cycle. I have one question.
Do some of the fellowship programs contact the internal medicine program directors from applicants to get more information about them if they are interested in a particular applicant?
 
metoprolol said:
Program Coordinator.
thanks for all you advice/input. Your comments have certainly been helpful esp at this stage in the application cycle. I have one question.
Do some of the fellowship programs contact the internal medicine program directors from applicants to get more information about them if they are interested in a particular applicant?
Click to expand...

Yes, sometimes a fellowship PD will contact the IM PD if there are questions about one or more of their residents. Sometimes faculty from a fellowship program will contact acquaintances/friends from a candidate's program, as well.

...I should have mentioned earlier that this happens both ways. PDs and faculty from IM will go out of their way to contact those in CVD to advocate for candidates, as well.

:luck:
 
Last edited:
Hello PC, thanks for all your advice here. I wish I had seen this thread earlier.
 
Last edited:
I think I may be confused.

#1 rank = your reach program; you don't think they'll rank you highly
#2 rank = you're worried that you misled them to think that they're your #1

If my understanding is correct...you haven't blatantly lied to program #2, but it's definitely misleading. Although I'm all about being upfront, I think you'll come off like a real head case if you were to write #2 again to say, "hey, I want to make it clear that I like you and wouldn't mind matching into your program, but I have to be honest and tell you that you're my #2."

Caveat: How long ago did you send your love letter to program #2?

If you wrote them recently, leave it alone. It's not worth it to double back. Especially if you believe that you're unlikely to be ranked to match with your #1.

If you wrote them weeks or months ago, it'll be fine to send them an email stating that you liked their program and plan to rank them highly. Key phrase...rank highly.


:luck:
 
Last edited:
Thanks again PC!


ProgCoordinator said:
I think I may be confused.

#1 rank = your reach program; you don't think they'll rank you highly
#2 rank = you're worried that you misled them to think that they're your #1

If my understanding is correct...you haven't blatantly lied to program #2, but it's definitely misleading. Although I'm all about being upfront, I think you'll come off like a real head case if you were to write #2 again to say, "hey, I want to make it clear that I like you and wouldn't mind matching into your program, but I have to be honest and tell you that you're my #2."

Caveat: How long ago did you send your love letter to program #2?

If you wrote them recently, leave it alone. It's not worth it to double back. Especially if you believe that you're unlikely to be ranked to match with your #1.

If you wrote them weeks or months ago, it'll be fine to send them an email stating that you liked their program and plan to rank them highly. Key phrase...rank highly.


:luck:
Click to expand...
 
ProgCoordinator said:
I think I may be confused.

#1 rank = your reach program; you don't think they'll rank you highly
#2 rank = you're worried that you misled them to think that they're your #1

If my understanding is correct...you haven't blatantly lied to program #2, but it's definitely misleading. Although I'm all about being upfront, I think you'll come off like a real head case if you were to write #2 again to say, "hey, I want to make it clear that I like you and wouldn't mind matching into your program, but I have to be honest and tell you that you're my #2."

Caveat: How long ago did you send your love letter to program #2?

If you wrote them recently, leave it alone. It's not worth it to double back. Especially if you believe that you're unlikely to be ranked to match with your #1.

If you wrote them weeks or months ago, it'll be fine to send them an email stating that you liked their program and plan to rank them highly. Key phrase...rank highly.


:luck:
Click to expand...

Dear Program coodinator,
Like everybody else, I sincerely appreciate that you take time out of your busy schedule to advise us.
I had previously told asked that a program I told I was goinf to rank number one, is not my number one ranked program after taking advice from other people. You had suggested that I inform the program of the change in ranking and I was considering emailing them later this month but your post above contradicts it.
So, what is the final verdict, should I tell a program who I told that I was going to rank number one, that although I am still highly interested but due to unforeseen circumstances, I will be ranking them number 2 now. Or just sit tight and see what happens.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
 
cards2012 said:
Dear Program coodinator,
Like everybody else, I sincerely appreciate that you take time out of your busy schedule to advise us.
I had previously told asked that a program I told I was goinf to rank number one, is not my number one ranked program after taking advice from other people. You had suggested that I inform the program of the change in ranking and I was considering emailing them later this month but your post above contradicts it.
So, what is the final verdict, should I tell a program who I told that I was going to rank number one, that although I am still highly interested but due to unforeseen circumstances, I will be ranking them number 2 now. Or just sit tight and see what happens.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Click to expand...

Cards2012, I don't mean to interfere with the nice PC thread, but I feel urged to give you my opinion. I would just leave things the way they are. You're not being dishonest here, you just changed your mind regarding one or two positions, you don't have to let the programs know about every change you make. Just relax, and wait for the match, you have done a great job thus far.
 
Dear PC,

Based on your experience, till what ranks does a program get its candidates: say a program has 4 positions, till what number do they end up getting their candidates. Thanks in advance
 
Hi PC
from your experience does it help if people call the PD to advocate for us to our program of choice
thanks
 
cards2012 said:
Dear Program coodinator,
Like everybody else, I sincerely appreciate that you take time out of your busy schedule to advise us.
I had previously told asked that a program I told I was goinf to rank number one, is not my number one ranked program after taking advice from other people. You had suggested that I inform the program of the change in ranking and I was considering emailing them later this month but your post above contradicts it.
So, what is the final verdict, should I tell a program who I told that I was going to rank number one, that although I am still highly interested but due to unforeseen circumstances, I will be ranking them number 2 now. Or just sit tight and see what happens.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Click to expand...


It was, in fact, for you in particular that I'd clarified I was about to offer an opinion that may seem to conflict with typical recommendation. There is a bit of a difference between the two posts and our program’s PD agreed with my advice, but unfurling a diatribe explaining it isn’t worth it in the long run because, at the end of the day, you should all do what you feel is best.

Although everything I offer is to help and demystify the process, it’s all based solely on my experience. It’s opinion. While I try to be absolutely objective, this is a subjective process.

:luck:
 
GIHUNTER1 said:
Dear PC,

Based on your experience, till what ranks does a program get its candidates: say a program has 4 positions, till what number do they end up getting their candidates. Thanks in advance
Click to expand...

Every year is different. I've had years when we match numerically straight from #1 down to #(whatever our last position may be). We've also had years we've gone down to the 20's or 30's.

:luck:
 
march73 said:
Hi PC
from your experience does it help if people call the PD to advocate for us to our program of choice
thanks
Click to expand...


If the program is already interested in you it will probably bolster your rank on their list. If the program isn't...then it may not do much. It could also depend on who is calling to advocate.

Right now we have a candidate who we weren't exceptionally psyched about (strong candidate, not exceptional). We received an absolutely glowing email about him/her from one of our former chief residents who we trust and respect, so we thought about the candidate again. If memory serves, we bumped the candidate up one or two. S/he's not within definite matching range, but it was a bump.

:luck:
 
Last edited:
pc - would you mind bumping up the match to 5/21? thank you.
 
atach said:
pc - would you mind bumping up the match to 5/21? thank you.
Click to expand...

If only we could! I guess tomorrow (post-rapture) we'll see whether all this was for naught. Wouldn't that suck?

:luck:
 
Hi ProgCoordinator, and thank you for your wisdom. You are definitely a God-send!

So I had a question....I have sent a "love letter" declaring to a program that they are my #1, but in the past few days have begun to maybe reconsider, and think of my #2 as an overall better fit for me. I know in the end, the ball is in my court and I rank the best program for me #1, but how bad would I/my current training program/letter writers, etc look if I decide to unrank them #1 and match elsewhere? In your experience, are applicants who do this blacklisted so to say? Thank you for your advice! :)
 
Rheumor said:
Hi ProgCoordinator, and thank you for your wisdom. You are definitely a God-send!

So I had a question....I have sent a "love letter" declaring to a program that they are my #1, but in the past few days have begun to maybe reconsider, and think of my #2 as an overall better fit for me. I know in the end, the ball is in my court and I rank the best program for me #1, but how bad would I/my current training program/letter writers, etc look if I decide to unrank them #1 and match elsewhere? In your experience, are applicants who do this blacklisted so to say? Thank you for your advice! :)
Click to expand...


No doubt one of the last things you want to do is tell your former #1 that they are now your FORMER #1. From a program's perspective, it would be most appreciated for a candidate to let us know that they've had a change of heart. Rational people will understand that, upon further reflection, you feel in your gut that another program will be a better fit. Updating the program is considerate and shows that you are forthright. A good program will appreciate it and probably won't move you on their ROL anyhow. For you, it will pave the way if you should apply to them in the future for an advanced fellowship, faculty position or partnership with them or one of their alums.

Now I'll step into your shoes. Do you believe that both your #1 and #2 programs are very interested in you? If so, it's my experience that both will rank you within matching range...you'll go to your new first choice and your former #1 will know that you changed your ROL without telling them. This will stick in their craw and they'll remember, but it may not necessarily eclipse their impression of how awesome you are as a clinician/researcher unless you also declared that you're among the most honest people walking the face of the earth.

If you tried to pull a George Washington or were overly effusive in your confession of love for them and then don't match to their program, they will never forget you and it will probably overshadow anything else that you have going for you as far as that program is concerned. You'll find in one of my earlier posts that my Department is dealing with this situation right now. The irreproachable candidate now wants to apply for one of our advanced fellowships and we want no part of them. There are too many other outstanding candidates out there.

Blah, blah, blah. Candidates change their minds all the time. Hell, I changed my coffee order three times before walking into Starbucks this morning. We'll only know if both parties said #1/ranked to match, the program followed through and the candidate doesn't match. At the end of the day, you should do whatever it is that you feel is best for you. Programs would like to know. Candidates feel uncomfortable doing it. Will it matter in 20 years? Probably not.

:luck:
 
ProgCoordinator,
Thanks so much for your help through all of this. I need some advice. I emailed my top 4 programs to tell them that I will be ranking them "highly". The PD of one of these programs has since called my own PD to ask about me and also left me a voicemail to call her back. I'm not exactly sure what they want to ask me. As you've been indicating, I'd like to be honest with the program but worry that being too blunt would disappoint the program. Would it be acceptable to say, honestly, that I will be ranking my own program number 1 but will still be ranking their program very highly? Or should I be more vague. What do you think?
 
CardsHopeful said:
ProgCoordinator,
Thanks so much for your help through all of this. I need some advice. I emailed my top 4 programs to tell them that I will be ranking them "highly". The PD of one of these programs has since called my own PD to ask about me and also left me a voicemail to call her back. I'm not exactly sure what they want to ask me. As you've been indicating, I'd like to be honest with the program but worry that being too blunt would disappoint the program. Would it be acceptable to say, honestly, that I will be ranking my own program number 1 but will still be ranking their program very highly? Or should I be more vague. What do you think?
Click to expand...

Whichever you're most comfortable with. You can let them know that you're happy about their interest because you were impressed by them on your interview day. So long as you don't say they'll be your first choice, you'll be cool and they'll probably understand. Congrats on the call.

:luck:
 
So I received an email from a program that I was not even considering to rank offering a position for 2011!I am really confused and dont know what to do.
I really appreciate your input
 
march73 said:
So I received an email from a program that I was not even considering to rank offering a position for 2011!I am really confused and dont know what to do.
I really appreciate your input
Click to expand...

I'm finding it difficult to advise since I don't know your background, how many programs you had interviewed with, whether you've applied before, which program we're talking about, etc. It would be all too easy for me to say that you shouldn't entertain the offer since you hadn't considered even ranking them in the first place, but it's not fair advice since I don't know any other factors.

Such a big help!

:luck:
 
ProgCoordinator said:
I'm finding it difficult to advise since I don't know your background, how many programs you had interviewed with, whether you've applied before, which program we're talking about, etc. It would be all too easy for me to say that you shouldn't entertain the offer since you hadn't considered even ranking them in the first place, but it's not fair advice since I don't know any other factors.

Such a big help!

:luck:
Click to expand...

Thanks PC
well as i said i didnt consider to rank them for 2012 since i have much better programs .but now they are offering me a position outside the match for 2011.Other than gaining this extra year,i dont see much benefit.
what do you think
 
march73 said:
Thanks PC
well as i said i didnt consider to rank them for 2012 since i have much better programs .but now they are offering me a position outside the match for 2011.Other than gaining this extra year,i dont see much benefit.
what do you think
Click to expand...

Sorry that I'd missed that important fact. If you feel that you have better programs to rank for 2012 and you believe that the interviews went well, I would not take the offer. BUT...do what you feel is best. Go with the gut!

:luck:
 
Thanks for all your inputs PC :)

Just curious to know this. How late is to late to pursue a research project? If I go into IM, I don't think I would know what I want to do until near my 2nd year of residency. Thanks again :)
 
Interesting thread. thank you. was wondering if you could settle a debate between a friend and i that is applying for cards.

1. When is it too late to send a love letter stating a program is #1.i said now is too late committees hav already met thus a love letter will not cause committees to reconvene bc of one email of interest.

2. my friend intereviwed at 13 cards fellowships but she is offcycle and cant start until november 1st due to family leave due to death during residency. i told her she might not be ranked bc of call duties so reapply next year. from your expereience will she be ranked at any program to match. she is a very strong can candidate but woukd programs rank strong candidates that are 4 months off cycle
 
DrVanNostran said:
Thanks for all your inputs PC :)

Just curious to know this. How late is to late to pursue a research project? If I go into IM, I don't think I would know what I want to do until near my 2nd year of residency. Thanks again :)
Click to expand...

First of all, they've finally decided to extend the timeline for residents to apply for fellowship. Candidates will apply as PGY 3 rather than 2, so you'll have more time before applying.

"The Alliance for Academic Internal Medicine (AAIM) and the fellowships participating in the Medical Specialties Matching Program (MSMP) have voted to move the MSMP schedule of dates beginning with the 2012 Match for the 2013 appointment year. Under the new schedule, Match Day will move from the spring of the applicants' second year of training to the fall of the third year, giving them more time to make decisions about fellowship choices."
--http://www.nrmp.org/

Beyond that, while it's never too late, I believe the sooner the better. As soon as you find something or someone (PI/Mentor) that interests you...get on it. Be mindful to follow through on your obligations to the project.

:luck:
 
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