Sick of: The DO philosophy, The degree debate, AT Still, etc.

[tkim]

You laugh, but at KCUMB, reaching into a closed box and identifying the bone and sex of the bone on feel alone is part of one of the anatomy practicals. I kid you not.

I wouldn't laugh, 'cause I know that's how old A.T. did it.

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[medhacker]

Is that what you told them at your interview? That you couldn't get into your state MD school, so you were applying there so you didn't have to keep trying? Did you mention that you really didn't like OMM and thought it was silly, or did you tell them you liked it?

Maybe, if you had been honest about it, they wouldn't have put you through all of the torture and just allowed you to reapply to MD school several more times and get the education you really wanted in the first place.

Right on!! +1

 

[Bacchus]

So, Bacchus, a question:

1) Is your avatar a picture of you or
2) The significant other or
3) The 'sultry wench with the fire in her eye' that you dream of catching?

Kate Walsh, you can google her.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Kate Walsh, you can google her.

This google image came off a little better than when I googled "Amy Goodman."

 

[cyclohexanol]

Is that what you told them at your interview? That you couldn't get into your state MD school, so you were applying there so you didn't have to keep trying? Did you mention that you really didn't like OMM and thought it was silly, or did you tell them you liked it?

Maybe, if you had been honest about it, they wouldn't have put you through all of the torture and just allowed you to reapply to MD school several more times and get the education you really wanted in the first place.

Right on!! +1

If people were honest about how they felt about OMM, there would only be enough students to fill a class at a single school.

In my experience, a more common occurrence is that applicants are truly curious about learning OMM and are honest during interviews. Then they start learning it and become quickly disillusioned.

I admire your idealism, but it is infinitely impractical.

 

[babdoc]

You laugh, but at KCUMB, reaching into a closed box and identifying the bone and sex of the bone on feel alone is part of one of the anatomy practicals. I kid you not.

The bone in a box isn't on every practical and is basically a gimme point. The last one we had was a scapula. That's all you had to put.

 

[JaggerPlate]

This google image came off a little better than when I googled "Amy Goodman."

My eyes are opened Watch DEMOCRACY NOW


Ugh ... hahaha.

 

[LSU Alex]

The bone in a box isn't on every practical and is basically a gimme point. The last one we had was a scapula. That's all you had to put.

It will show up in your renal practical as well... and will most likely be a pelvis, which you will have to tell the sex. And gimme point or not, how is it a quality determinant of your level of medical knowledge?

 

[bleeker10]

For a bonus on an anatomy practical, we had to identify a testicle in a black bag by just feeling the bag. A bunch of ppl (me included) thought it felt like the gallbladder through the bag haha.

 

[LSU Alex]

For a bonus on an anatomy practical, we had to identify a testicle in a black bag by just feeling the bag. A bunch of ppl (me included) thought it felt like the gallbladder through the bag haha.

Now THAT is the craziest test question I've ever heard of... you, sir, win.

 

[babdoc]

It will show up in your renal practical as well... and will most likely be a pelvis, which you will have to tell the sex. And gimme point or not, how is it a quality determinant of your level of medical knowledge?

So I hear. Sexing the pelvis in renal seems pretty practical. Whether or not doing it blind is more beneficial than by sight is debatable. It's not overtly cruel though.

A friend of mine at SLU told me that someone in his class had to sex a pelvis in the middle of a lecture pelvic exam style. That makes bone in a box sound pretty tame.

 

[engineeredout]

For a bonus on an anatomy practical, we had to identify a testicle in a black bag by just feeling the bag. A bunch of ppl (me included) thought it felt like the gallbladder through the bag haha.

I got the bonus. Able to identify testicles based on feel instantly

 

[JaggerPlate]

Able to identify testicles based on feel instantly

This needs to be on your resume under 'special skills,' or on your business card (doesn't matter what field you practice in).

 

[medhacker]

In my experience, a more common occurrence is that applicants are truly curious about learning OMM and are honest during interviews. Then they start learning it and become quickly disillusioned.

I admire your idealism, but it is infinitely impractical.

Thinking that, most commonly, applicants are truly curious about learning OMM and are honest during interviews. Then they start learning it and become quickly disillusioned, is a true definition of idealism...

I admire you back...

 

[tkim]

I got the bonus. Able to identify testicles based on feel instantly

Lightning Ballseeker.

 

[engineeredout]

Lightning Ballseeker.

Note my new user title now.

 

[tkim]

Note my new user title now.

Wear it with pride. Now all you have to do is grow a long beard.

 

[DOtoCanada]

Wow. I don't recall any of the "DO is better than MD" in the first two years.
I think had I been forced to listen to such "we're better" drivel or "OMM is the only thing you'll ever need" or "sage sayings of AT Still" I would have vomited.

Yes. It happens. I think they finally took it down but a bunch of students from Kirksville did YouTube vids in parody of the "Mac vs PC" commercials and said "I'm a DO. And I'm an MD." and proceeded to espouse how much better DOs are than MDs because they treat "people, not diseases."

*BARF*

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yes. It happens. I think they finally took it down but a bunch of students from Kirksville did YouTube vids in parody of the "Mac vs PC" commercials and said "I'm a DO. And I'm an MD." and proceeded to espouse how much better DOs are than MDs because they treat "people, not diseases."

*BARF*

Yeah, I saw those on youtube ....

 

[spicedmanna]

Yes. It happens. I think they finally took it down but a bunch of students from Kirksville did YouTube vids in parody of the "Mac vs PC" commercials and said "I'm a DO. And I'm an MD." and proceeded to espouse how much better DOs are than MDs because they treat "people, not diseases."

*BARF*

If you are talking about the same ones I've seen, then it's from KCUMB, not Kirksville. It was a video made for Follies. Just for fun...a parody. Not serious at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuuIiDekSzU&feature=related

 

[JaggerPlate]

If you are talking about the same ones I've seen, then it's from KCUMB, not Kirksville. It was a video made for Follies. Just for fun...a parody. Not serious at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuuIiDekSzU&feature=related

Yeah, that's the one I've seen. I know they were just kidding, but I've just never been a fan of the DO = MD + some. I think it comes off as snobbish, and frankly MD = DO in 95% of practices. I suppose if you're a FP doc that utilizes OMM a lot, then you can say you do it all ... then some, but otherwise ... ehh, I just think that mentality leaves a bad taste in too many mouths.

My mom actually brought up a funny point the other night when speaking to my aunt. She was saying how she likes to see DOs because she knows they trained in America and has this paranoia that the MDs she see are FMGs or trained in a totally different country, which apparently she doesn't like. I laughed and told her it was really pretty unfounded (that they did train in a different country or that if they did, they would offer any lower standard of care), but I'd still never heard that one before.

 

[MSSM2013]

Yeah, that's the one I've seen. I know they were just kidding, but I've just never been a fan of the DO = MD + some. I think it comes off as snobbish, and frankly MD = DO in 95% of practices. I suppose if you're a FP doc that utilizes OMM a lot, then you can say you do it all ... then some, but otherwise ... ehh, I just think that mentality leaves a bad taste in too many mouths.

My mom actually brought up a funny point the other night when speaking to my aunt. She was saying how she likes to see DOs because she knows they trained in America and has this paranoia that the MDs she see are FMGs or trained in a totally different country, which apparently she doesn't like. I laughed and told her it was really pretty unfounded (that they did train in a different country or that if they did, they would offer any lower standard of care), but I'd still never heard that one before.

appearently AOA is about to accredit foreign DO school, might want to bring up that fear.

 

[JaggerPlate]

appearently AOA is about to accredit foreign DO school, might want to bring up that fear.

I personally think it's a silly thing to worry about (in regards to her FMG fear). Where is the foreign school? I heard things about it, but haven't really received much info, nor do I see the point.

 

[MomRNtoDO]

My mom actually brought up a funny point the other night when speaking to my aunt. She was saying how she likes to see DOs because she knows they trained in America and has this paranoia that the MDs she see are FMGs or trained in a totally different country, which apparently she doesn't like. I laughed and told her it was really pretty unfounded (that they did train in a different country or that if they did, they would offer any lower standard of care), but I'd still never heard that one before.

I think it all comes down to regulation again. The US licensing boards might not have a say in what the curriculum is like and the conditions in which students learn. Way back when I was looking at available programs, I found an ONLINE RN to MD program that was based on a third world island in the Caribbean. Now that is scary to me. ONLINE medical education.

In regard to the benefits of OMM in our DO training, one way to start helping out those that do practice EBM on a regular basis is to quit griping about having to learn it at when you are at an osteopathic school. I enjoy most of it, know that some of it is a far stretch to be considered more than imagination and think some of it could have its place if researched more. I know that by practicing OMM on each other, we are learning early on how to touch our patients and get over the hurdles of being intimidated when it comes to the 'laying on of hands' that so much diagnosis comes from. We also do get a superior anatomic education. I know people at the medical schools in the region that do not know what the inside of the human body looks like, except on video or CGI. We put our hands on each other, and in anatomy lab, we dissect a cadaver to really get the idea of how the human body is put together.

 

[babdoc]

We also do get a superior anatomic education. I know people at the medical schools in the region that do not know what the inside of the human body looks like, except on video or CGI.

I'm not sure who you mean by "we." But anyone who does cadaver dissection gets a superior anatomic education. It seems that schools that do it are pretty on par with each other. I'm sure you meant that though. There's a reason our favorite KCUMB pathologist makes fun of schools that don't do cadaver dissection. It just can't be the same experience.

 

[Laryngophed]

I'm not sure who you mean by "we." But anyone who does cadaver dissection gets a superior anatomic education. It seems that schools that do it are pretty on par with each other. I'm sure you meant that though. There's a reason our favorite KCUMB pathologist makes fun of schools that don't do cadaver dissection. It just can't be the same experience.

I'm not in med school yet and I love that guy. His website is a good way to lose a few hours of my life and every alum of KCUMB I have talked to says he makes the path enjoyable.

 

[brucecanbeatyou]

It's sort of like worshiping Edison every time your thankful for computers and the internet.

Haha, this is my favorite.

 

[Styria]

I personally think it's a silly thing to worry about (in regards to her FMG fear). Where is the foreign school? I heard things about it, but haven't really received much info, nor do I see the point.

I'm in favor of it if their purpose is to spread American-style osteopathic medicine (complete physicians with OMT rather than manipulation-only) abroad.

 

[peppy]

In my experience, a more common occurrence is that applicants are truly curious about learning OMM and are honest during interviews. Then they start learning it and become quickly disillusioned.

I think this probably does happen pretty often. Many DO applicants really don't know a lot about OMM before they start med school but are open to the idea. If you discover once you're immersed in it that it's something you don't enjoy, don't have a talent for, or don't feel is useful to patients then you start to resent having to spend time on it when there are so many other demands on your time.
It's no different than how so many people sincerely think they want to do a certain specialty when they start med school but then later on when they do a clinical rotation in that specialty during 3rd they realize "This is not what I want at all".

 

[Siggy]

Now that is scary to me. ONLINE medical education.

Devil's advocate here. How is it any different than the students who forsake live lectures at US schools in favor of watching a recording of said lecture online? Heck, at my school we're told not to email (ask as many questions as you want in lecture though) professors and instead post the question on a forum in the student portal (Blackboard). I'll admit, I used to be a "ZOMG, must go to lecture" student with a distaste for online education. However, there's a lot of online medical education is an important aspect of a lot of US medical education now.

Of course offering online medical education is not a substitute for having proper educational facilities, access to professors, and proper exam security standards.

 

[24IdaFire]

You've materialized the complaints of all level-headed DOs . Of course I would never say this to my OMM faculty, but I can think it.

I was mildly intoxicated at a class gathering at a local pub one time when one of my OMM faculty walked in with some of my classmates.

I walked up to her and said, "Chapman points are bull **** and you know it."

That lead to her buying me two beers while we discussed the validity of Chapmen points.

 

[24IdaFire]

Now THAT is the craziest test question I've ever heard of... you, sir, win.

That is the LECOM way. I had to do the same.

Oh, and when I had to do that, it was a Crown Royal bag.

 

[punkiedad]

For a bonus on an anatomy practical, we had to identify a testicle in a black bag by just feeling the bag. A bunch of ppl (me included) thought it felt like the gallbladder through the bag haha.

LOL...I was gonna say the same thing....I actually guessed the same thing......squishy thing in a bag....gall bladder right? Wrong.

 

[smq123]

We also do get a superior anatomic education. I know people at the medical schools in the region that do not know what the inside of the human body looks like, except on video or CGI. We put our hands on each other, and in anatomy lab, we dissect a cadaver to really get the idea of how the human body is put together.

Most allopathic schools also have gross lab. We certainly did - as much as I would like to erase the memory of getting showered with a sea of mushy adipose tissue, I can tell you for certain that we did. You're not getting a "superior anatomic education" just by virtue of being at a DO school, but rather because your school still offers a dissection lab. Like I said, though, most MD schools also require that their students dissect their own cadavers.

I know that by practicing OMM on each other, we are learning early on how to touch our patients and get over the hurdles of being intimidated when it comes to the 'laying on of hands' that so much diagnosis comes from.

Even at my allopathic school, we did a lot of physical diagnosis, and had plenty of practice "laying on of hands" before starting clinical rotations. Again, this is not unique to osteopathic education.

The REAL root of being intimidated when it comes to physical diagnosis of patients when you're an MS3 is the fact that, unlike your standardized patients, these people are SICK. It's one thing to practice listening to heart and lung sounds (or performing OMT for that matter) on a standardized patient who is sitting up, talking, and took a shower that morning....it's another to listen to heart and lung sounds on a patient who is morbidly obese, has terrible anasarca, is intubated and hooked up to a ventilator, has c. diff diarrhea, can only grunt and withdraw from painful stimuli, and has 2 peripheral IVs and a IJ TLC and is on CVVHD....etc.

I'm not trying to come down hard on osteopathic education; I'm just saying that there are fewer differences than a lot of people may realize.

 

[J-Rad]

...it's another to listen to heart and lung sounds on a patient who is morbidly obese, has terrible anasarca, is intubated and hooked up to a ventilator, has c. diff diarrhea, can only grunt and withdraw from painful stimuli, and has 2 peripheral IVs and a IJ TLC and is on CVVHD....etc.

No, no. These are the easiest to listen to and some of the easiest PE (part of the) notes to write. Had to consult on a NICU baby once with anasarca and on the Jet ventilator. My PE didn't say much more than:

"(VS)
Intubated and sedated.
Severe anasarca.
Ventilator sounds transmit through chest wall. Heart sounds unable to be appreciated.
Abdomen distended.
Pulses not easily felt."

It was about two lines more than a surgeon would write in the PE, but it was the closest thing I've written to a surgical note in a long time

Kidding aside, I basically agree with what you said.

 

[smq123]

No, no. These are the easiest to listen to and some of the easiest PE (part of the) notes to write.

True. They're sort of like the "acute change in mental status" elderly people we see in the ED. The ROS for those patients is SUPER easy. Just write "Could not be obtained" over and over again, and you're good to go.

I remember the first time I had to round on an ICU patient when I was an MS3. I was gingerly trying to listen to the patient's heart sounds while keeping the isolation gown out of my way. As soon as I laid the stethoscope on the patient's chest, though, the ventilator started doing that weird honking thing and the telemetry alarms started blaring. I jumped about 4 feet ("OMG WHAT DID I JUST DO?!?!??"), and tried to avoid rounding on that patient the next day. Good times, good times.

 

[scpod]

As soon as I laid the stethoscope on the patient's chest, though, the ventilator started doing that weird honking thing and the telemetry alarms started blaring. I jumped about 4 feet ("OMG WHAT DID I JUST DO?!?!??"), and tried to avoid rounding on that patient the next day. Good times, good times.

OK, this is totally off track for thr thread, but that soooo reminded me of one of my ED rotations in Jacksonville. I rotated at all three of three of the Baptist hospitals in the area, but it was my first day at one of them. A patient asked me if I would flip off the light in the room and I wasn't really even familiar with the rooms yet. I only saw a single switch on the wall so I flipped it... and at the very same time ALL of the lights in the emergency department went out! Two seconds later the generator kicked in. OMG! I was standing there, flipping the switch back and forth for a bout a minute until I realized that it was just a coincidence. I nearly peed in my pants!

 

[Laryngophed]

OK, this is totally off track for thr thread, but that soooo reminded me of one of my ED rotations in Jacksonville. I rotated at all three of three of the Baptist hospitals in the area, but it was my first day at one of them. A patient asked me if I would flip off the light in the room and I wasn't really even familiar with the rooms yet. I only saw a single switch on the wall so I flipped it... and at the very same time ALL of the lights in the emergency department went out! Two seconds later the generator kicked in. OMG! I was standing there, flipping the switch back and forth for a bout a minute until I realized that it was just a coincidence. I nearly peed in my pants!

Haha, so since we are off-track I'll throw my embarrassing coincidence in to the mix.
One of my jobs during college was as a tech in an ED in my hometown hospitals. As a tech, I was responsible for phlebotomy when it was reasonable for me to do so. So, we have this patient come in with a malfunctioning internal defibrillator, which is discharging at random, regardless of rhythm. Doc orders the normal labs and I go in to get the samples. I put everything beside him on the cart and place the tourniquet on his arm and clean the site with alcohol. I grab the needle and lean in, just before I get to the skin, the defibrillator goes off. The patient jumps and I jump out of the chair, two feet back from the bed and nearly trip over the chair. Additionally, I let out a squeal that was audible at the nurses station. A nurse and doc come running in to check on us. Sadly, I have to explain what happened. I spent the next few days with the nickname "Jumpy."

 

[123165]

I was mildly intoxicated at a class gathering at a local pub one time when one of my OMM faculty walked in with some of my classmates.

I walked up to her and said, "Chapman points are bull **** and you know it."

That lead to her buying me two beers while we discussed the validity of Chapmen points.

Being unfamiliar with Chapman/Chapmen, I spent about 5 minutes having an internal debate about whether-or-not you intentionally spelled Chapman differently.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Being unfamiliar with Chapman/Chapmen, I spent about 5 minutes having an internal debate about whether-or-not you intentionally spelled Chapman differently.

How deep/introspective of you!!

 

[bth7]

OK, this is totally off track for thr thread, but that soooo reminded me of one of my ED rotations in Jacksonville. I rotated at all three of three of the Baptist hospitals in the area, but it was my first day at one of them. A patient asked me if I would flip off the light in the room and I wasn't really even familiar with the rooms yet. I only saw a single switch on the wall so I flipped it... and at the very same time ALL of the lights in the emergency department went out! Two seconds later the generator kicked in. OMG! I was standing there, flipping the switch back and forth for a bout a minute until I realized that it was just a coincidence. I nearly peed in my pants!

What a great story.

I can totally imagine being in that situation and feeling/reacting the exact same way.

bth

 

[24IdaFire]

Being unfamiliar with Chapman/Chapmen, I spent about 5 minutes having an internal debate about whether-or-not you intentionally spelled Chapman differently.

Chapman.

Named after somebody who really loved feeling for "peas" under people's skin.

 

[MomRNtoDO]

Devil's advocate here. How is it any different than the students who forsake live lectures at US schools in favor of watching a recording of said lecture online? Heck, at my school we're told not to email (ask as many questions as you want in lecture though) professors and instead post the question on a forum in the student portal (Blackboard). I'll admit, I used to be a "ZOMG, must go to lecture" student with a distaste for online education. However, there's a lot of online medical education is an important aspect of a lot of US medical education now.

Of course offering online medical education is not a substitute for having proper educational facilities, access to professors, and proper exam security standards.

Point taken, many of us do review or make up lectures online. This school was basically distance learning. I thought it novel, as I did much of my BSN online, as many BSN programs are offered. However, these were basically the theory classes that all you do is read a book or look at articles anyway. I felt that I lacked in classes that are traditionally classroom based such as pharm and pathophys, but it motivated me to become a self learner. This was after two years of intensive hands-on nursing education though, in the classroom, in the clinical setting, one-on-one or in groups with an instructor.

The online medical school was not represented to be that way. It was, however, only open to RNs. I guess they thought RN clinical knowledge would make up for it.

I would be curious to know if distance learners and in class learners have comparable test scores. That would give the answer right there. I don't know that one.

 

[MomRNtoDO]

The REAL root of being intimidated when it comes to physical diagnosis of patients when you're an MS3 is the fact that, unlike your standardized patients, these people are SICK. It's one thing to practice listening to heart and lung sounds (or performing OMT for that matter) on a standardized patient who is sitting up, talking, and took a shower that morning....it's another to listen to heart and lung sounds on a patient who is morbidly obese, has terrible anasarca, is intubated and hooked up to a ventilator, has c. diff diarrhea, can only grunt and withdraw from painful stimuli, and has 2 peripheral IVs and a IJ TLC and is on CVVHD....etc.

I'm not trying to come down hard on osteopathic education; I'm just saying that there are fewer differences than a lot of people may realize.

Superior anatomic education...yes, anyone that participates in cadaver dissection, not just our school, or DO schools. Not what I meant, sorry if it came across that way.

I agree wholeheartedly with the intimidation of the scenario you proposed. Years of ICU nursing definitely makes me aware of the difficulty facing 3rd and 4th yrs and residents out there. I just feel that the countless hours of lab and structural examination we put in on top of everything else we learn in OMM lab gives us the time to become more comfortable invading other peoples' space. I wish we had more time with sick patients early on, but it is a learning process. You can't simulate real life.

 

[smq123]

I agree wholeheartedly with the intimidation of the scenario you proposed. Years of ICU nursing definitely makes me aware of the difficulty facing 3rd and 4th yrs and residents out there. I just feel that the countless hours of lab and structural examination we put in on top of everything else we learn in OMM lab gives us the time to become more comfortable invading other peoples' space.

Maybe. Again, it's hard to compare unless you've been through both (and who wants to go through med school TWICE?). Plus, it will be harder for you, having been an RN and had a lot of patient contact previously.

It's also assuming that we don't get a lot of practice "invading other peoples' space" in an allopathic med school. But we did, at least at my school. A lot of hours spent with standardized patients, a few visits a month to a local hospital to practice physical exams on patients on med-surg floors, community clinics held weekly or twice a month (which students run). It doesn't make much of a difference once you start MS3.

Plus, it's also assuming that students who had been paramedics or nurses before coming to med school would be excellent students when it came to rotations....they looked just as freaked out as the rest of us, and their grades weren't any higher. There are so many other things that are overwhelming about 3rd year that "I'm used to touching patients" becomes less of an advantage.

Finally, unless DO schools do a better job teaching people how to comfortably invade other peoples' EMOTIONAL spaces, all the OMT labs in the world won't necessarily make you more comfortable on rotations. It never really gets easier to have patients say "You look SO MUCH like my granddaughter" right before you're about to sit down and have a heart to heart talk about their painless hematuria or something.

 

[rkaz]

I have only been surfing the allo board recently and I gotta say, in many ways I wish our board was like theirs. There are constantly threads asking relevant basic science and clinical questions. I wish more of that went on in this board. Instead, we have threads like this one (guilty as charged). That was my whole point, in a way. If we would spend more time studying that stuff and less time on stuff like the degree debate, the disparities would disappear, because we'd be able to outperform our colleagues.

This is because many of us who have basic academic type questions go over to the allopathic medical student board to post questions, since there are a lot more people over there.

I like the format over there as well. Like many others, I very much support the allopathic and osteopathic medical forums here on SDN to be merged. It only makes sense since most of the information we seek is the same. The 'allopathic-specific' and 'osteopathic-specific' questions should be on sub-forums off the combined medical student forum. This way most of all our general medical/rotations questions would all be on one forum, with only a few allopathic/osteopathic specific questions on sub-forums. That would be the best approach as I see it, and would help us come together instead of be segregated.

 

[Laryngophed]

... Like many others, I very much support the allopathic and osteopathic medical forums here on SDN to be merged. It only makes sense since most of the information we seek is the same. The 'allopathic-specific' and 'osteopathic-specific' questions should be on sub-forums off the combined medical student forum. This way most of all our general medical/rotations questions would all be on one forum, with only a few allopathic/osteopathic specific questions on sub-forums. That would be the best approach as I see it, and would help us come together instead of be segregated.

x2

 

[Summit02]

bth, I'm sorry you hated your school so much. But not all schools are yours. Perhaps if you would at LEAST not globalize your hatred and disgust to all DO schools in general you might be taken a bit more seriously.

Personally, UNE wasn't that bad. It has its problems (which I have been quite blunt about) but it also has good points, and one of those has been very balanced teaching in general. Not to mention some outstanding teaching, specifically anatomy, pharm, neuro, and OMM. Yes, OMM. No "sage sayings of Dr. Still", just good old-fashioned anatomy based OMM teaching (except for cranial).

So, gee, I don't think my school sucked as much as you think yours did. Don't put my school in a group with yours, please.

I don't think this is about HATE as much as it is about general frustration and wish to get things better.
I went to UNE. They called it OPP and some of the instructors were nice but you had to pretend to drink the kool-aid.
I also had to do a rotation in OMT which was torture as it was towards the end of my 4th year and I really knew a lot more by then and was challenging the chiropractor dressed up as DO. I remember his Sage Sayings about Still to me as something along the lines of me needing to have more faith and believe more.

That said, I work with the FP and IM residencies to teach OMM basics at a top 25 ACGME med-school/hospital. I stay away from the garbage and tell them upfront that the evidence is minimal behind this stuff.

 

[ShyRem]

Ugh. Well, I don't remember any Kool-Aid, in fact they were quite clear OMM was a tool, not the be-all end-all of medicine. My OMM rotation was actually a lot of fun. Perhaps it's changed, and more likely perhaps the instructors and attendings have changed.

 

[JaggerPlate]

What flavor is the kool-aide? This, frankly, makes all the difference to me.