Sick of: The DO philosophy, The degree debate, AT Still, etc.

[metalmd06]

First of all, happy holidays to all you SDNers out there. As the stress builds as the boards grow nearer, I felt it necessary to vent a little bit about some BS I'm sick of.

1. Enough with the DO philosophy:
As far as I'm concerned, the sanctity of the DO philosophy is the biggest hoax in medicine. This isn't some grandiose and amazing new way to practice medicine. You know what it is? It's common sense.

2. The degree debate:
It bothers me that there is so much time wasted beating this issue into the ground. At first, I really wanted to see a change. Now it's a nuisance. All patients care about is outcomes. If you save a life or cure someone's disease, or even just make a patient feel better, they won't care if your an MD, DO, DPT, DNP, DMD, DDS, DPM, et cetera, et cetera. Maybe I'll care more when I'm out there and I experience the disparities first hand. Until then, what is with the inferiority complex?

3. OMT and AT Still:
This infuriates me. I don't hate ALL of OMT, but I am sick of being fed the musings of a man who left this earth almost 100 years ago. Enough already. Evidence for the utility of the lymphatic pump or release of fascial strain is not inherent in the fact that AT Still once said "the artery is supreme," or "it seems to me that the sould of a man dwells in his fascia." Reduction in hospital stays due to treatment with OMT, is. We need more of this kind of proof.

4. Making stuff up:
Do you find that this happens at your schools? OMT professors add things to their lectures to provide "proof" of the mechanism of an OMT treatment. Some of it is just ludicrious. I don't understand why we can't admit that we don't know why this stuff works? There are plenty of drugs that we don't the exact mechanism for. Does this prevent us from using them to treat patients? If we want OMT to be a relevant cornerstone of treatment, we are going to have to think of innovative ways for it to become accepted into EBM, because its obvious that traditional research means are not producing results. Telling me that mediastinal fascial release relieves strain in the pericardio-vertebral ligaments (which don't exist), or that blood flow through the HPA does not occur without the movement of the diaphragm sella, or that the thyroid gland is the master gland and Chapman's points exist solely because some osteopath said it in 1939 just makes me want to use OMM less. All this being said, I treated my girlfriend with counterstrain and FPR earlier this evening.

That's about it for now. I guess my final message is this: If we are dedicated and we think about our patients (first and foremost), we all can become physicans who are not defined by a title, a philosophy or a degree. What do you all think of this?

---

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[JaggerPlate]

First of all, happy holidays to all you SDNers out there. As the stress builds as the boards grow nearer, I felt it necessary to vent a little bit about some BS I'm sick of.

1. Enough with the DO philosophy:
As far as I'm concerned, the sanctity of the DO philosophy is the biggest hoax in medicine. This isn't some grandiose and amazing new way to practice medicine. You know what it is? It's common sense.

2. The degree debate:
It bothers me that there is so much time wasted beating this issue into the ground. At first, I really wanted to see a change. Now it's a nuisance. All patients care about is outcomes. If you save a life or cure someone's disease, or even just make a patient feel better, they won't care if your an MD, DO, DPT, DNP, DMD, DDS, DPM, et cetera, et cetera. Maybe I'll care more when I'm out there and I experience the disparities first hand. Until then, what is with the inferiority complex?

3. OMT and AT Still:
This infuriates me. I don't hate ALL of OMT, but I am sick of being fed the musings of a man who left this earth almost 100 years ago. Enough already. Evidence for the utility of the lymphatic pump or release of fascial strain is not inherent in the fact that AT Still once said "the artery is supreme," or "it seems to me that the sould of a man dwells in his fascia." Reduction in hospital stays due to treatment with OMT, is. We need more of this kind of proof.

4. Making stuff up:
Do you find that this happens at your schools? OMT professors add things to their lectures to provide "proof" of the mechanism of an OMT treatment. Some of it is just ludicrious. I don't understand why we can't admit that we don't know why this stuff works? There are plenty of drugs that we don't the exact mechanism for. Does this prevent us from using them to treat patients? If we want OMT to be a relevant cornerstone of treatment, we are going to have to think of innovative ways for it to become accepted into EBM, because its obvious that traditional research means are not producing results. Telling me that mediastinal fascial release relieves strain in the pericardio-vertebral ligaments (which don't exist), or that blood flow through the HPA does not occur without the movement of the diaphragm sella, or that the thyroid gland is the master gland and Chapman's points exist solely because some osteopath said it in 1939 just makes me want to use OMM less. All this being said, I treated my girlfriend with counterstrain and FPR earlier this evening.

That's about it for now. I guess my final message is this: If we are dedicated and we think about our patients (first and foremost), we all can become physicans who are not defined by a title, a philosophy or a degree. What do you all think of this?

I'm sorry you're angry???

 

[LSU Alex]

I'm sorry you're angry???

When you actually start attending some classes, you'll understand what the OP is talking about. When you see the pamphlet in your OMT class called "The Sage Sayings of Still", you'll come back to this post and smile at point #3. When they tell you about Chapman's points and use Chinese acupuncture as irrefutable proof -- usually with the statement "well they haven't been able to disprove acupuncture and the Chinese have been using it for over 2000 years -- of it's existence/validity; you'll come back and laugh at point #4. Don't drink all of the kool-aid... unless it's grape... cause grape is good.

 

[JaggerPlate]

When you actually start attending some classes, you'll understand what the OP is talking about. When you see the pamphlet in your OMT class called "The Sage Sayings of Still", you'll come back to this post and smile at point #3. When they tell you about Chapman's points and use Chinese acupuncture as irrefutable proof -- usually with the statement "well they haven't been able to disprove acupuncture and the Chinese have been using it for over 2000 years -- of it's existence/validity; you'll come back and laugh at point #4. Don't drink all of the kool-aid... unless it's grape... cause grape is good.

I'm sorry you took my response as more than me going ... shurggggg ???

 

[LSU Alex]

I'm sorry you took my response as more than me going ... shurggggg ???

Oh no, no, my friend. I wasn't trying to lecture or anything. I see you have "accepted" as your signature. You are about to join the fun world of scratching your head and saying "really... I mean, really?!?!?". Welcome to the club!!! And I'm serious about the kool-aid... only grape.

 

[Bacchus]

You've materialized the complaints of all level-headed DOs . Of course I would never say this to my OMM faculty, but I can think it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Oh no, no, my friend. I wasn't trying to lecture or anything. I see you have "accepted" as your signature. You are about to join the fun world of scratching your head and saying "really... I mean, really?!?!?". Welcome to the club!!! And I'm serious about the kool-aid... only grape.

I do like grape. Haha I didn't think you were lecturing, and I'll be there soon ... we'll discuss it then.

 

[thanecyan]

.

1. Enough with the DO philosophy:
The philosophy was important when medicine was much more volatile. There was homeopathy, hydropathy, mesmerism, magnetism, allopathic bleeding, etc.
Yes, today you can't see a difference between the two schools of thought, but if you read about the history of medicine, it was a huge deal back then.

2. The degree debate:
Agreed, who cares. DDS/DMD, DO/MD, whatever.

3. OMT and AT Still:
The entire philosophy/OMT was built on ONE man's idea who had to battle against not only MD peers but the legislators of different states. Again, it's just a part of history.
It's kinda like the whole Hippocratic oath business...that guy has been dead way longer than AT Still and he's still a part of medical education in one way or another.

4. Making stuff up:
My OMT professors go over research articles that support the OMT that we're about to learn (does your school not do this?)


Have you read the Gevitz book?

 

[Isoprop]

What percentage of OMT is crap and what percentage is legitimate?

 

[spicedmanna]

Don't worry. There is relief from the insanity. Once you hit the wards, you won't care as much any more about most of the stuff you mentioned.

 

[Villiers]

Hang in there. There really is a light at the end of the tunnel, and it's called 3rd year rotations. Then you get some relief from the Osteopathic propaganda that most OMT departments bombard you with.

Just learn it enough to pass the boards, and then you can flush it from your mind. Go to an ACGME residency and don't ever look back.

Now as a PGY-2, I look back at some of the drivel my OMT faculty pushed on us, and the thought of them lasting for more than 2 seconds in a high-acuity, tertiary care center is laughable. There is a reason they are teaching massage techniques instead of practicing clinical medicine, and it 'aint because OMT is some wonder-therapy.

 

[ShyRem]

1. There is a time and place for OMT, and when used appropriately is a wonderful tool.
2. The "whole person philosophy" is being taught in more than a few MD schools these days.
3. It's the person that makes the physician, not the initials.
4. Heck, even Harvard has an OMM course for MDs over the summer. No kidding.

The differences between the degrees are becoming fewer and fewer. But you'll always find people who are prejudiced, just like you'll always find people ashamed of the initials behind their name. Be proud. Stand tall. And be a great physician. You -- not your initials.

 

[J-Rad]

As someone who enjoyed most OMM as an MS (and even though I think cranial is bunk, when else in med school to you get to take a nap with someone rubbing your head? MMMMM) and who is proud of my degree and where it's gotten me, I sympathize with the OP's post. For a venting thread I appreciate that it isn't all "OMM is stupid and DOs should just become MDs". Despite my affinity for OMM I could have done a lot less with the AT Still hero-worship. Jesus, even Osler doesn't get as much adoration. Dude had some decent ideas, but it was later generations that really built the field as it is today both in its traditional medical capacity and in the development of manual treatment techniques. It's sort of like worshiping Edison every time your thankful for computers and the internet. Totally agree with OP in the "degree debate"-it's *****ic. And I think point 4 is solid (even though in most cases my OMM faculty tried to present evidence). OP: enjoy the holidays; eat drink and be merry and do some drunken-master technique OMM on your GF. Rest and recharge. Like others said, it gets better and I think there are fewer AT zealots outside of academic osteopathic medicine (even among those practicing OMM in their careers).

 

[engineeredout]

I can't stand the OMM class at all, it drives me crazy. Not talking about the treatments/lab itself, but the god damn lectures and AT still hero worship and stupid phrases like "Toss the banner of osteopathy to the breeze" or "The roots of osteopathy are embedded deeply in the ground" or talking about the great california tragedy of 1961 like it was the holocaust. No I don't care that fred mitchell Sr first came up with Muscle energy (but sure on a written exam when we actually spend time studying how to diagnose the sacrum put that question with two of the choices being mitchell sr and mitchell jr). Is memorizing three different definitions of whiplash by three different people (And knowing who came up with which one) really important?


Again, I have no issue with questions on fryettes, sacrum diagnosis, order of spencer etc... But its all the other irrevelant crap that gets thrown into the class that drives me crazy. We've had lectures as part of the class on "Integrative therapies" with information on the Tenscam (http://www.tenscam.com/ - should provide you with a good laugh) or questions involving knowing "Which of the following is not an element of aryuveda".

Its nice when they tell us that "OMM is just a tool in the DO arsenal", yet the faculty seems so enamored with themselves that they act like OMM is the be all and end all, and they lecture on mystical voodoo garbage that if any outsider would see, they would think all the rumors and prejudices against DOs would be correct.

I'd rant some more but my blood pressure is probably high enough right now.

 

[ShyFly]

There is a place for OMT and there are there are those who go overboard with is. Ove seen it work very well on my patients with constipation, carpal tunnel, etc. I do agree that a portion of it is nonsense. As far as the "philosophy", how much of it you obtain is school dependant but it makes sense to look beyond the presentation. You have no idea how many patients with "diffuse body pain" are just depressed and would bewnefit more from an SSRI and therapy rather than "vicodin q 6 hours PRN, RTC in 4 weeks".

 

[tideleonheart]

What percentage of OMT is crap and what percentage is legitimate?

I think most of it is good stuff. (I've learned everything except cranial, so I cannot comment on that.) The problem comes when OMM teachers make it seem like it's the absolute best thing in the world. I honestly think that if OMM teachers were more down to earth about things, less people would be as frustrated as the OP or others on these forums. OMM is a tool that you can use for a specific purpose in a specific patient with specific problems. It is not something is effectively used on every single patient, like some would hope us to think.

At my school, OMM isn't as religious as a lot of other schools (or at least that's the impression I get from the attitudes out there). A lot of our OMM teachers are VT sports med faculty and they use OMM in many very practical ways, so I think we have a more practical way of looking at things.

 

[metalmd06]

You've materialized the complaints of all level-headed DOs . Of course I would never say this to my OMM faculty, but I can think it.

I think the exact opposite should be done. One member of the faculty actually thinks we SHOULD challenge things that we hear in lecture that we believe are not correct. What student physician stands to benefit from misiformation? In response to another poster, I would like to make it known that OMT professors at my school do use research articles and studies as references/support. That evidence is just fine. What I'm talking about is when there is no such information and anatomy, physiology and pathology are fabricated. Its BS.

 

[DrHambik]

Just hope your school doesn't require OMM "rotations" like mine does during the 3rd year of school. Most of the preceptors are Cranial gurus and run small clinics so you can imagine the great fun of this four weeks.

 

[tkim]

Just hope your school doesn't require OMM "rotations" like mine does during the 3rd year of school. Most of the preceptors are Cranial gurus and run small clinics so you can imagine the great fun of this four weeks.

Heh.

 

[JustPlainBill]

I think the exact opposite should be done. One member of the faculty actually thinks we SHOULD challenge things that we hear in lecture that we believe are not correct. What student physician stands to benefit from misiformation? In response to another poster, I would like to make it known that OMT professors at my school do use research articles and studies as references/support. That evidence is just fine. What I'm talking about is when there is no such information and anatomy, physiology and pathology are fabricated. Its BS.

<Gasp!> Fabricated anatomy, physiology, and pathology?!!! Say it isn't so...surely, no OMM department would ever do that?!!!!

- Kuchera and Kuchera also state that the muscles of arm abduction are exactly backwards from standard anatomy texts yet are taken as gospel by the OMM faculty and disdain by the anatomy faculty.
- Dual boarded OMM prof (OMM and FP) doesn't know the difference between the spine of the scapula and the inferior angle of the scapula. He was asked twice in front of a crowd and stated emphatically that the inferior angle was clinically referred to as the spine of the scapula.
- Guest lecturer, with absolute seriousness, informed our entire class that our serum chemistry approximated the makeup of sea water since mankind evolved from fish -- no, I am not BS'ing you....and the OMM faculty sat there and lapped it up like grape kool-aid....
- Flexor hallicus longus is now in the anterior forearm compartment.
- One prof's claim to fame was that he treated A.T. Still's granddaughter - I guess we were supposed to 'Ooh' and 'Aah' and bow and scrape appropriately.....
- And one last one - are they seriously telling me that I am supposed to be able to palpate the celiac ganglion through at least 6 inches of organ filled abdomen, covered by layers of muscle and fascia when I do the 'Celiac Ganglion release'? Are you 'effing kidding me?......

The absoute lunacy of this makes me start to think that we should merge with the allopaths, take the USMLE for our licensing exams and anyone who wants to do OMM gets to stick around for another year post grad (make the OMM residency 4 years) and get paid like a specialist......We spend 4 years becoming experts in non-clinically relevant minutiae and no time at all learning what we'll see in clinic.......and get to pay for the privilege of teaching ourselves.....

 

[metalmd06]

I do like grape. Haha I didn't think you were lecturing, and I'll be there soon ... we'll discuss it then.

I have no doubt Jagger that you will have PLENTY to discuss when you begin. Maybe not so much during first year, probably more during second year. I look forward to it.

 

[LSU Alex]

This sequence happened during the explanation of counterstrain in one of my OMT labs:

OMT doc: "Find the anterior tender point. After 90 seconds of Tx, you'll find this point reduced. Now, I know you all want research to back up the tender points, Chapman's points, and what not. The research we have only has an N = 3 or some other low number, but it works. Right now, we don't know why it works so it sounds like voodoo. But I liken it to penicillin... we don't really know how penicillin works, do we? Sure, something about cell walls, but seriously, do we know?"

Class and the smart asses in the back: <jaw drops>

Ummm... yes, yes we do know how penicillin works. I mean just in case anyone out there was in doubt, we DO know how penicillin works.

I'm an OMT TA. Some modalities have their uses. ME and MFR are excellent for large muscle groups. Beyond that... I'm skeptical. But OMT is subjective anyway. It's when your instructors argue with the science that is staring them in their faces that you begin to wonder...

<Gasp!> Fabricated anatomy, physiology, and pathology?!!! Say it isn't so...surely, no OMM department would ever do that?!!!!

- Guest lecturer, with absolute seriousness, informed our entire class that our serum chemistry approximated the makeup of sea water since mankind evolved from fish -- no, I am not BS'ing you....and the OMM faculty sat there and lapped it up like grape kool-aid....
- Flexor hallicus longus is now in the anterior forearm compartment.
- One prof's claim to fame was that he treated A.T. Still's granddaughter - I guess we were supposed to 'Ooh' and 'Aah' and bow and scrape appropriately.....
- And one last one - are they seriously telling me that I am supposed to be able to palpate the celiac ganglion through at least 6 inches of organ filled abdomen, covered by layers of muscle and fascia when I do the 'Celiac Ganglion release'? Are you 'effing kidding me?......

The absoute lunacy of this makes me start to think that we should merge with the allopaths, take the USMLE for our licensing exams and anyone who wants to do OMM gets to stick around for another year post grad (make the OMM residency 4 years) and get paid like a specialist......We spend 4 years becoming experts in non-clinically relevant minutiae and no time at all learning what we'll see in clinic.......and get to pay for the privilege of teaching ourselves.....

Hey, hey! Don't give grape a bad name!!! You only have to worry if it smells like almonds...

 

[Pegasus1731]

you've materialized the complaints of all level-headed dos . Of course i would never say this to my omm faculty, but i can think it.

x2

 

[genswim24]

First of all, happy holidays to all you SDNers out there. As the stress builds as the boards grow nearer, I felt it necessary to vent a little bit about some BS I'm sick of.

1. Enough with the DO philosophy:
As far as I'm concerned, the sanctity of the DO philosophy is the biggest hoax in medicine. This isn't some grandiose and amazing new way to practice medicine. You know what it is? It's common sense.

2. The degree debate:
It bothers me that there is so much time wasted beating this issue into the ground. At first, I really wanted to see a change. Now it's a nuisance. All patients care about is outcomes. If you save a life or cure someone's disease, or even just make a patient feel better, they won't care if your an MD, DO, DPT, DNP, DMD, DDS, DPM, et cetera, et cetera. Maybe I'll care more when I'm out there and I experience the disparities first hand. Until then, what is with the inferiority complex?

3. OMT and AT Still:
This infuriates me. I don't hate ALL of OMT, but I am sick of being fed the musings of a man who left this earth almost 100 years ago. Enough already. Evidence for the utility of the lymphatic pump or release of fascial strain is not inherent in the fact that AT Still once said "the artery is supreme," or "it seems to me that the sould of a man dwells in his fascia." Reduction in hospital stays due to treatment with OMT, is. We need more of this kind of proof.

4. Making stuff up:
Do you find that this happens at your schools? OMT professors add things to their lectures to provide "proof" of the mechanism of an OMT treatment. Some of it is just ludicrious. I don't understand why we can't admit that we don't know why this stuff works? There are plenty of drugs that we don't the exact mechanism for. Does this prevent us from using them to treat patients? If we want OMT to be a relevant cornerstone of treatment, we are going to have to think of innovative ways for it to become accepted into EBM, because its obvious that traditional research means are not producing results. Telling me that mediastinal fascial release relieves strain in the pericardio-vertebral ligaments (which don't exist), or that blood flow through the HPA does not occur without the movement of the diaphragm sella, or that the thyroid gland is the master gland and Chapman's points exist solely because some osteopath said it in 1939 just makes me want to use OMM less. All this being said, I treated my girlfriend with counterstrain and FPR earlier this evening.

That's about it for now. I guess my final message is this: If we are dedicated and we think about our patients (first and foremost), we all can become physicans who are not defined by a title, a philosophy or a degree. What do you all think of this?

At least the osteopathic board has been interesting lately, the same thing can not be said for the allopathic board. It's been quite the snooze-fest.

 

[Bacchus]

My whole problem is the preaching. I like OMM, what it can do, and how it makes me feel. I am proud of my future degree. But, I am not the type of person that needs to yap on and on about who I am or what I do. Teach me, let me use it, and stop kissing feet.

 

[bth7]

2. The "whole person philosophy" is being taught in more than a few MD schools these days.

Agreed.

Now if they would just start teaching at DO schools.

bth

 

[ShyRem]

bth, I'm sorry you hated your school so much. But not all schools are yours. Perhaps if you would at LEAST not globalize your hatred and disgust to all DO schools in general you might be taken a bit more seriously.

Personally, UNE wasn't that bad. It has its problems (which I have been quite blunt about) but it also has good points, and one of those has been very balanced teaching in general. Not to mention some outstanding teaching, specifically anatomy, pharm, neuro, and OMM. Yes, OMM. No "sage sayings of Dr. Still", just good old-fashioned anatomy based OMM teaching (except for cranial).

So, gee, I don't think my school sucked as much as you think yours did. Don't put my school in a group with yours, please.

 

[bth7]

bth, I'm sorry you hated your school so much. But not all schools are yours. Perhaps if you would at LEAST not globalize your hatred and disgust to all DO schools in general you might be taken a bit more seriously.

Personally, UNE wasn't that bad. It has its problems (which I have been quite blunt about) but it also has good points, and one of those has been very balanced teaching in general. Not to mention some outstanding teaching, specifically anatomy, pharm, neuro, and OMM. Yes, OMM. No "sage sayings of Dr. Still", just good old-fashioned anatomy based OMM teaching (except for cranial).

So, gee, I don't think my school sucked as much as you think yours did. Don't put my school in a group with yours, please.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek on that one.

No hate.

I'm glad that more MD schools are taking an open mind toward holistic medicine. And I encourage anyone's whose interested to follow that interest to the fullest.

Some great groups to check out if your are interested:
AMSA Humanistic Medicine
American Holistic Medicine Association


There lots of exciting stuff happening with holistic medicine. There's no longer any MD v DO divide on this.

bth

 

[metalmd06]

At least the osteopathic board has been interesting lately, the same thing can not be said for the allopathic board. It's been quite the snooze-fest.

I have only been surfing the allo board recently and I gotta say, in many ways I wish our board was like theirs. There are constantly threads asking relevant basic science and clinical questions. I wish more of that went on in this board. Instead, we have threads like this one (guilty as charged). That was my whole point, in a way. If we would spend more time studying that stuff and less time on stuff like the degree debate, the disparities would disappear, because we'd be able to outperform our colleagues. Anyway, Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

 

[allopurinol]

I have only been surfing the allo board recently and I gotta say, in many ways I wish our board was like theirs. There are constantly threads asking relevant basic science and clinical questions. I wish more of that went on in this board. Instead, we have threads like this one (guilty as charged). That was my whole point, in a way. If we would spend more time studying that stuff and less time on stuff like the degree debate, the disparities would disappear, because we'd be able to outperform our colleagues. Anyway, Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

It really does not matter if you're able to outperform your MD colleagues, because the AOA as it is now will continuously enact policies that are detemential to the profession. We all are, unfortunately, to a large degree, prejudged by its actions, current students even more so. For example, the propaganda that it continues to spew using OMT to justify a separate medical profession, and the implication that their training is better than MD schools is ludicrious, as seen by its over-reliance on MD's to train its med students and graduates. The time spent teaching a something that they know very few of its matriculants will use (OMT) is time that could be used teaching more hard core science (biochemistry). Those that want to learn OMM more extensively could do elective rotations.
Happy holidays to all.

 

[JustPlainBill]

It really does not matter if you're able to outperform your MD colleagues, because the AOA as it is now will continuously enact policies that are detemential to the profession. We all are, unfortunately, to a large degree, prejudged by its actions, current students even more so. For example, the propaganda that it continues to spew using OMT to justify a separate medical profession, and the implication that their training is better than MD schools is ludicrious, as seen by its over-reliance on MD's to train its med students and graduates. The time spent teaching a something that they know very few of its matriculants will use (OMT) is time that could be used teaching more hard core science (biochemistry). Those that want to learn OMM more extensively could do elective rotations.
Happy holidays to all.

Interesting. If you believe what a certain school in the southwest tells you, their students who choose to take the USMLE (and almost all do) are better than 94% of the allopathic schools taking the USMLE. With the current method of 'teaching' (i.e. take the book home and read it and be prepared for a 3rd or 4th order quiz tomorrow) the scores have consistently been at least half of a standard deviation above other osteopathic schools (and more like a full standard deviation) on the COMLEX for 5 years running......

They also manage to have OMM on the plate for two years but the typical student ignores it until 2 or 3 days before the exam, puts on the OMM-to-English translating device and gets the requisite 83 on the written and spews back enough of the departments verbage to pass the practical....For people who really were interested in OMM prior to coming to school and wanted to see the research, it sucks....

 

[Bacchus]

Interesting. If you believe what a certain school in the southwest tells you, their students who choose to take the USMLE (and almost all do) are better than 94% of the allopathic schools taking the USMLE. With the current method of 'teaching' (i.e. take the book home and read it and be prepared for a 3rd or 4th order quiz tomorrow) the scores have consistently been at least half of a standard deviation above other osteopathic schools (and more like a full standard deviation) on the COMLEX for 5 years running......

They also manage to have OMM on the plate for two years but the typical student ignores it until 2 or 3 days before the exam, puts on the OMM-to-English translating device and gets the requisite 83 on the written and spews back enough of the departments verbage to pass the practical....For people who really were interested in OMM prior to coming to school and wanted to see the research, it sucks....

We do that up here too. I haven't focused on a practical until a day beforehand and we've gone through 3 already.

 

[JustPlainBill]

We do that up here too. I haven't focused on a practical until a day beforehand and we've gone through 3 already.

So, Bacchus, a question:

1) Is your avatar a picture of you or
2) The significant other or
3) The 'sultry wench with the fire in her eye' that you dream of catching?

 

[bleeker10]

I tend to learn the OMM techniques better and quicker with a small group of friends going over it the night before a practical than in scheduled OMM lab. It seems the teachers like to contradict each other or teach us "their" way of doing things which only makes it tougher to learn. I don't know how many times we have been lectured on something in OMM lab and when we break into our subgroups, my subgroup proctor gathers us to tell us why the lecturer is wrong or how things are done in the "real" world. Honestly I just want to be taught the way I'm gonna be tested and when I get on rotations I will learn how it's done in the real world.

Our OMM practicals are worth more than our OPP lecture tests so I just make sure I do well on the practicals. I study the day before for tests and make decent grades but since I do focus more on the practicals I got a better grade in the class. I like OMM lab and am excited for starting treatments in the spring. I'm just tired of the chip that's on many of the profs shoulders. The only profs I let slide with having a chip on their shoulder are the ones that went through med school in the 50's and 60's and actually experienced the discrimination of the degree. The younger profs who get on their soapbox and preach to us how DO is better than MD lose my attention and I don't take them as seriously. I just hope those of us in DO school now don't have this same mentality when we are through our training

 

[ShyRem]

Wow. I don't recall any of the "DO is better than MD" in the first two years. I do recall "same, but with one extra class" occassionally, but mostly we just didn't even discuss the two degrees at all. OMM was talked about as another tool in your tool belt of tricks - not a cure all, not the be-all end-all of medicine. We did get certain facts regarding some specifics of AT Still that were enforced only because they might show up on our COMLEX exams.

I think had I been forced to listen to such "we're better" drivel or "OMM is the only thing you'll ever need" or "sage sayings of AT Still" I would have vomited.

 

[tkim]

Wow. I don't recall any of the "DO is better than MD" in the first two years. I do recall "same, but with one extra class" occassionally, but mostly we just didn't even discuss the two degrees at all. OMM was talked about as another tool in your tool belt of tricks - not a cure all, not the be-all end-all of medicine. We did get certain facts regarding some specifics of AT Still that were enforced only because they might show up on our COMLEX exams.

I think had I been forced to listen to such "we're better" drivel or "OMM is the only thing you'll ever need" or "sage sayings of AT Still" I would have vomited.

At my OMM lab, there was a picture of A.T. Still on the wall. Reminded me of a dojo, and it was hard not to take off my shoes, and bow to the picture before flipping the next person who walked into lab.

 

[J-Rad]

Wow. I don't recall any of the "DO is better than MD" in the first two years. I do recall "same, but with one extra class" occassionally, but mostly we just didn't even discuss the two degrees at all. OMM was talked about as another tool in your tool belt of tricks - not a cure all, not the be-all end-all of medicine. We did get certain facts regarding some specifics of AT Still that were enforced only because they might show up on our COMLEX exams.

I think had I been forced to listen to such "we're better" drivel or "OMM is the only thing you'll ever need" or "sage sayings of AT Still" I would have vomited.

I agree. I thought that UNE did a pretty decent job of not getting too cultic about OMM. I think its use as a large adjunct to anatomy served it well (they used to have 2 1/2 year pre-clinical years so everyone was going out later on rotations. One way they made a 2 year pre-clinical curriculum was to shift a bunch of anatomy over to OMM and spread it out in the two years, which I'm sure they told you). The moments where I thought there was a bit of AT Still-worship usually came with guest lecturers (esp. if they were AAO legends). Also, in those times when I was stressed out by multiple tests, including OPP, it was a little easier to get a little pissy about thinking about what year the "banner was flung" when I had to remember 10 tenderpoints, and five other treatments for a region and the anatomy underlying. But overall I didn't feel too dogged by it.

 

[J-Rad]

At my OMM lab, there was a picture of A.T. Still on the wall. Reminded me of a dojo, and it was hard not to take off my shoes, and bow to the picture before flipping the next person who walked into lab.

I thought you were supposed to rub the bone as you went by. I must have been doing it wrong.

 

[tkim]

I thought you were supposed to rub the bone as you went by. I must have been doing it wrong.

Hopefully we're still talking about OMM lab. Heh.

If you are, you got it wrong. If you could reach into the bone bag and identify it by feel alone, you were excused from lab.

Extra points on the final if you could levitate small objects with just the power of your mind.

 

[mabish71DO]

First of all, happy holidays to all you SDNers out there. As the stress builds as the boards grow nearer, I felt it necessary to vent a little bit about some BS I'm sick of.

1. Enough with the DO philosophy:
As far as I'm concerned, the sanctity of the DO philosophy is the biggest hoax in medicine. This isn't some grandiose and amazing new way to practice medicine. You know what it is? It's common sense.

2. The degree debate:
It bothers me that there is so much time wasted beating this issue into the ground. At first, I really wanted to see a change. Now it's a nuisance. All patients care about is outcomes. If you save a life or cure someone's disease, or even just make a patient feel better, they won't care if your an MD, DO, DPT, DNP, DMD, DDS, DPM, et cetera, et cetera. Maybe I'll care more when I'm out there and I experience the disparities first hand. Until then, what is with the inferiority complex?

3. OMT and AT Still:
This infuriates me. I don't hate ALL of OMT, but I am sick of being fed the musings of a man who left this earth almost 100 years ago. Enough already. Evidence for the utility of the lymphatic pump or release of fascial strain is not inherent in the fact that AT Still once said "the artery is supreme," or "it seems to me that the sould of a man dwells in his fascia." Reduction in hospital stays due to treatment with OMT, is. We need more of this kind of proof.

4. Making stuff up:
Do you find that this happens at your schools? OMT professors add things to their lectures to provide "proof" of the mechanism of an OMT treatment. Some of it is just ludicrious. I don't understand why we can't admit that we don't know why this stuff works? There are plenty of drugs that we don't the exact mechanism for. Does this prevent us from using them to treat patients? If we want OMT to be a relevant cornerstone of treatment, we are going to have to think of innovative ways for it to become accepted into EBM, because its obvious that traditional research means are not producing results. Telling me that mediastinal fascial release relieves strain in the pericardio-vertebral ligaments (which don't exist), or that blood flow through the HPA does not occur without the movement of the diaphragm sella, or that the thyroid gland is the master gland and Chapman's points exist solely because some osteopath said it in 1939 just makes me want to use OMM less. All this being said, I treated my girlfriend with counterstrain and FPR earlier this evening.

That's about it for now. I guess my final message is this: If we are dedicated and we think about our patients (first and foremost), we all can become physicans who are not defined by a title, a philosophy or a degree. What do you all think of this?

Its pretty annoying isnt it? I didn't realize how bad it was until I started med school this year. I just wish the DO world would get off its pipe dream about the DO philosophy and realize they are appealing to a market of highly qualified students who either chose not to reapply to their state MD school or did several times and wanted to stop wasting time. I am so tired of stuffing my mind with useless garbage I want to puke. If they must teach OMM, it should be OMM that is evidence based like the rest of medicine/science is. I don't give a damn about ancient bonesetters (AT still) or being fed ancient untested garbage that some random person "invented" in the 30s. All OMM does is take away from important parts of the curriculum....I had a OMM practical the day before an immunology exam. What a waste of time that I could have studied another day for something important.

 

[scpod]

....I just wish the DO world would get off its pipe dream about the DO philosophy and realize they are appealing to a market of highly qualified students who either chose not to reapply to their state MD school or did several times and wanted to stop wasting time....

Is that what you told them at your interview? That you couldn't get into your state MD school, so you were applying there so you didn't have to keep trying? Did you mention that you really didn't like OMM and thought it was silly, or did you tell them you liked it?

Maybe, if you had been honest about it, they wouldn't have put you through all of the torture and just allowed you to reapply to MD school several more times and get the education you really wanted in the first place.

 

[mabish71DO]

Oh give me a break...lol Of course I said I believed in OMM and the DO philosophy at the interview. Do you realize how many people are at DO schools who didn't get into their state school? How do you think they got in? After the interview the DO attending I worked with doing research the year before I went to medical school said "Did you tell them what they wanted to hear about OMM..."jokingly"" He knows I want to do critical care medicine and will never use OMM. Nobody gets into a DO school if they don't bow down to the DO philosophy and ironically a good chunk of the student body could care less about ancient bonesetting and are there as a second choice to be medical doctors. Yes I think most OMM is silly but I will put up with it because I want to be a licensed physician. Sorry Im part of the 95% of DOs that will never use it in practice. So maybe they should redo the interview questions to reflect reality.

Is that what you told them at your interview? That you couldn't get into your state MD school, so you were applying there so you didn't have to keep trying? Did you mention that you really didn't like OMM and thought it was silly, or did you tell them you liked it?

Maybe, if you had been honest about it, they wouldn't have put you through all of the torture and just allowed you to reapply to MD school several more times and get the education you really wanted in the first place.

 

[LSU Alex]

If you are, you got it wrong. If you could reach into the bone bag and identify it by feel alone, you were excused from lab.

You laugh, but at KCUMB, reaching into a closed box and identifying the bone and sex of the bone on feel alone is part of one of the anatomy practicals. I kid you not.

 

[ensuii]

You laugh, but at KCUMB, reaching into a closed box and identifying the bone and sex of the bone on feel alone is part of one of the anatomy practicals. I kid you not.

I hope this is a joke...

 

[spicedmanna]

I hope this is a joke...

It's not a joke.

 

[LSU Alex]

I hope this is a joke...

The anatomy practical station was literally called "bone in a box". It was a box with two holes cut in the side so that you could stick your hands in. There were question marks all over the box. So you stuck your hands in, felt the bone for 1 minute, and guessed what bone it was... and if they were being real mean, they'd also ask you to tell what sex it was (if it was possible => ie. pelvis). Wait... you mean not everyone had to do this?!?!?!? What happens if you are in history class, and the Russians start parachuting in, and they make you stick your hands in a box and ID a bone or you die?

Youtube: KCUMB bone in a box... they did a follies video on it.

 

[bioman2006]

.

 

[bioman2006]

.

 

[LSU Alex]

Whoa. What a useless form of testing someone's knowledge. Like I'm going to blindfold myself and identify a random bone on my patient's body through palpation. It's like a lame magic trick.

Yeah when they told us we were gonna have to do this I said to myself, "Nice joke guys... wait... no... you're serious? WTF?!?! Are we trying out for America's Got Talent or something?" I don't know what's wrong with these folks...

 

[J-Rad]

The anatomy practical station was literally called "bone in a box". It was a box with two holes cut in the side so that you could stick your hands in. There were question marks all over the box. So you stuck your hands in, felt the bone for 1 minute, and guessed what bone it was... and if they were being real mean, they'd also ask you to tell what sex it was (if it was possible => ie. pelvis). Wait... you mean not everyone had to do this?!?!?!? What happens if you are in history class, and the Russians start parachuting in, and they make you stick your hands in a box and ID a bone or you die?

Youtube: KCUMB bone in a box... they did a follies video on it.

Sounds like the inspiration for "D*ck in a Box"