Sick day before Vacation in Residency

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twospadz

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Currently a 3rd year resident. I have been using one sick day before my vacation days start. I will usually call out sick and do a doctor appointment to get things out the way for that day. I've only been doing this on my outpatient rotations where I can easily block my schedule in advance so it does not put pressure on any of the residents and attendings. Apparently the administration has noticed I've been doing this and made comments to me (residency coordinator and secretaries.) I have a upcoming vacation soon. I am in New York where we get mandatory 12 sick days by state law. My question is, should I take the sick day or just lay low? The assistant program director said it "looks bad to take a sick day right before vacation" but has not threatened punitive action.
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Just to be clear, you’re asking us if you should pretend to be sick when you aren’t really sick? Just because you have sick days doesn’t mean you get to use them like personal days if you’re not really sick.

The practical answer, which is all you probably care about, is that you should lay low. You’ve clearly drawn attention to yourself in a bad way, and you’re tempting fate at this point.
 
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Are you kidding me? You have been blocking your schedule in advance to then call in sick. This is highly unprofessional. I would make sure your pattern of behavior is clearly mentioned in any future letter of recommendation. Honestly, if I understand what you have been doing correctly, there would be no need for a letter of recommendation. You would not be working for me.
 
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It sounds like OP is allowed to used sick days for routine doctors appointments - and happens to schedule his doctors appointments the day before vacation.

On the one hand, that's less shady than just calling in fake sick. On the other hand, it's still transparent as all get out. Just go to work.
 
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Raryn said:
It sounds like OP is allowed to used sick days for routine doctors appointments - and happens to schedule his doctors appointments the day before vacation.

On the one hand, that's less shady than just calling in fake sick. On the other hand, it's still transparent as all get out. Just go to work.
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That wasn't my interpretation, he said he "calls out sick." If it was just a routine doctor's appointment they'd probably tell him to just leave early/get there late and work most of the day.

Also, I totally missed that he blocks out his schedule in advance which makes it very obvious to everyone exactly what you're doing. In that case, I feel like the aPD was very directly telling you, "Don't do this anymore," and they're being about as nice about it as possible.
 
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I actually don't think this is a huge deal. A lot of places allow you to take sick days for doctor's appointments. I think what makes this a big deal is that the OP takes that sick day the day before vacation and then calls out sick on the day of. OP, don't do that. Take the sick day some other time, maybe a random Tuesday the week before or something and plan in advance by telling your coordinator/secretary that you plan to use a sick day that day for doctor's appointments. Done.

I used to stack doctor's appointments during residency. Out of dental, vision, and PCP, I'd get at least 2/3 out of the way on the same day if at all possible and take the whole day.
 
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Animalcules said:
Are you kidding me? You have been blocking your schedule in advance to then call in sick. This is highly unprofessional. I would make sure your pattern of behavior is clearly mentioned in any future letter of recommendation. Honestly, if I understand what you have been doing correctly, there would be no need for a letter of recommendation. You would not be working for me.
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Im doing this to make everyone else life less of burden by blocking in advance. The only thing that would happen is they would put the patients before or after on a different day. Therefore, no one would have to see any of my patients on that day.
 
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twospadz said:
Im doing this to make everyone else life less of burden by blocking in advance. The only thing that would happen is they would put the patients before or after on a different day. Therefore, no one would have to see any of my patients on that day.
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I agree, this is better than if you had patients scheduled and canceled at the last minute.

Without getting into the moral pissing contest of what is and isn't appropriate in terms of how you use sick days, it seems like your aPD is telling you to stop using your sick days in this manner. This isn't the hill for you to die on--just stop doing it.
 
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Just do what your program wants, which is clearly to stop the sick day thing
 
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twospadz said:
Im doing this to make everyone else life less of burden by blocking in advance. The only thing that would happen is they would put the patients before or after on a different day. Therefore, no one would have to see any of my patients on that day.
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To be fair, you're doing this to make things easier for yourself leading into the vacation days above all else -- after all, it's a nice way to get the appointment done and utilize those sick days, right? I don't blame you for wanting to do it like that. I get that you're doing it in such a way so as to minimize the collateral damage, but it does "look bad" from an outsider's perspective, and while any actual harm done is debatable in the big picture, you're obviously rubbing people the wrong way.

Agree with above -- definitely not the hill to die on. "Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer."
 
Veil said:
To be fair, you're doing this to make things easier for yourself leading into the vacation days above all else -- after all, it's a nice way to get the appointment done and utilize those sick days, right? I don't blame you for wanting to do it like that. I get that you're doing it in such a way so as to minimize the collateral damage, but it does "look bad" from an outsider's perspective, and while any actual harm done is debatable in the big picture, you're obviously rubbing people the wrong way.

Agree with above -- definitely not the hill to die on. "Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer."
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Your right. I will stop it. Its not worth the risk at all.
 
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FaytlND said:
What he's describing is unprofessional, regardless whether it is "allowed". And that's not limited to medicine.
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If you're allowed to use sick days to go to doctor's appointments, how is it unprofessional to use sick days to go to doctor's appointments? The only thing about this that looks "sketchy" is that the OP always planned these days before a vacation.
 
Mass Effect said:
If you're allowed to use sick days to go to doctor's appointments, how is it unprofessional to use sick days to go to doctor's appointments? The only thing about this that looks "sketchy" is that the OP always planned these days before a vacation.
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It is "sketchy" because the OP is using sick days as a way to extend his vacation. He is using sick days as vacation days. The fact he has an appointment part of the day is beside the point.
 
NITRAS said:
It is "sketchy" because the OP is using sick days as a way to extend his vacation. He is using sick days as vacation days. The fact he has an appointment part of the day is beside the point.
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As I said the only thing sketchy is the timing of the sick days, but he said he's actually going to doctor's appointments on those days. So if he uses sick days a week or two weeks before vacation for these doctor's appointments is it less sketchy?
 
Mass Effect said:
As I said the only thing sketchy is the timing of the sick days, but he said he's actually going to doctor's appointments on those days. So if he uses sick days a week or two weeks before vacation for these doctor's appointments is it less sketchy?
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Yes. This is abuse of the benefit, and if you don't see that I'd hope it's simply due to lack of experience in a work environment as opposed to being completely oblivious. It's the kind of activity that results in those benefits being curtailed for everyone.

And like I said, regardless of whether it's technically should be a secondary consideration. Coworkers and supervisors will consider it unprofessional, and an attempt to game the system. So if you want to do it, knock yourself out. Just don't complain when you've developed a reputation.
 
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FaytlND said:
Yes. This is abuse of the benefit, and if you don't see that I'd hope it's simply due to lack of experience in a work environment as opposed to being completely oblivious. It's the kind of activity that results in those benefits being curtailed for everyone.

And like I said, regardless of whether it's technically should be a secondary consideration. Coworkers and supervisors will consider it unprofessional, and an attempt to game the system. So if you want to do it, knock yourself out. Just don't complain when you've developed a reputation.
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Not sure why you're arguing when I specifically said the OP should not do this on the day before vacation. Seems you're in agreement with that.
 
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Mass Effect said:
As I said the only thing sketchy is the timing of the sick days, but he said he's actually going to doctor's appointments on those days. So if he uses sick days a week or two weeks before vacation for these doctor's appointments is it less sketchy?
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He’s on vacation so has the day off...why not go on an actual
Vacation day?

It’s obvious that he was using that to extend the vacation...and got caught...PD brought it up as a subtle point to not do it again...he’s on the radar now...better decision is to just not do it again...
 
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rokshana said:
He’s on vacation so has the day off...why not go on an actual
Vacation day?
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Because he's allowed to use sick days to do it, so why use a vacation day for it? It's not like he's making more work for his colleagues or canceling on patients. If your system allows you to use sick days in this way, you should get to if you want. BUT it should not be on the day before your vacation.

It’s obvious that he was using that to extend the vacation...and got caught...PD brought it up as a subtle point to not do it again...he’s on the radar now...better decision is to just not do it again...
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I never said otherwise.
 
Yeah I feel like this is "being an adult lesson 101." It’s never a good look in any job to routinely call out sick the day before or after vacation or on Mon or Fri with a repeated pattern.
 
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Interestingly, I don't see this as a problem. Much of the issue here is terminology. Calling it a "sick day" is confusing. Sick days are usually unpredictable, you get sick, you can't come to work. You call in sick.

We call them personal days. You can take them any time you want, for any reason you want. Taking them right before a vacation is very common. Or the Friday after thanksgiving. You can use them for doctor's appointments. Or suntanning. You just have to set them up far enough in advance so that it doesn't cause anyone else a problem. People also routinely use them at the end of training to allow an earlier move. We give much less than 12 of them, and we do have rules about how many you're allowed to use in a row (you can't create a week of vacation with them, except right at the end of training)

But, it's all about appearances and local culture. We once had a resident who actually "called in sick", and it was often on a friday or a monday. The former makes us worry that someone is abusing the system. The latter makes us worry that someone is abusing substances.
 
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aProgDirector said:
Interestingly, I don't see this as a problem. Much of the issue here is terminology. Calling it a "sick day" is confusing. Sick days are usually unpredictable, you get sick, you can't come to work. You call in sick.

We call them personal days. You can take them any time you want, for any reason you want. Taking them right before a vacation is very common. Or the Friday after thanksgiving. You can use them for doctor's appointments. Or suntanning. You just have to set them up far enough in advance so that it doesn't cause anyone else a problem. People also routinely use them at the end of training to allow an earlier move. We give much less than 12 of them, and we do have rules about how many you're allowed to use in a row (you can't create a week of vacation with them, except right at the end of training)

But, it's all about appearances and local culture. We once had a resident who actually "called in sick", and it was often on a friday or a monday. The former makes us worry that someone is abusing the system. The latter makes us worry that someone is abusing substances.
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In general i’m a fan of the non-descript “personal days”. Go to cabo, go to the doctor, whatever. You have a # of days to not be here and get paid, no details needed
 
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Mass Effect said:
Because he's allowed to use sick days to do it, so why use a vacation day for it? It's not like he's making more work for his colleagues or canceling on patients. If your system allows you to use sick days in this way, you should get to if you want. BUT it should not be on the day before your vacation.



I never said otherwise.
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Really ? Is he allowed? Generally everywhere I have been, medical or non medical job sick days are just that you, or your children are unexpectedly sick...if it was a PTO, that would be different...but rarely do you anticipate a sick day...maybe a scheduled surgery or procedure ( when I had knee surgery, I had to take fmla and was able to use sick days towards it ), but otherwise, unless it’s spelled out that doctor’s appts are able to be used for sick days, it’s shady...and the fact that his PD called him out on it...gotta feeling it’s not really allowed.
 
rokshana said:
Really ? Is he allowed? Generally everywhere I have been, medical or non medical job sick days are just that you, or your children are unexpectedly sick...if it was a PTO, that would be different...but rarely do you anticipate a sick day...maybe a scheduled surgery or procedure ( when I had knee surgery, I had to take fmla and was able to use sick days towards it ), but otherwise, unless it’s spelled out that doctor’s appts are able to be used for sick days, it’s shady...and the fact that his PD called him out on it...gotta feeling it’s not really allowed.
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Where I did residency, sick days could be used for doctor's appointments, spelled out by the coordinator. Where I did fellowship, sick days could be used for doctor's appointments, spelled out by PD in email. Where I work now, sick days can be used for doctor's appointments, spelled out in my contract.

I also checked with a friend of mine working about 1000 miles away in a different field and their residents can also use sick days for doctor's appointments though they don't get as many as we did.
 
sb247 said:
In general i’m a fan of the non-descript “personal days”. Go to cabo, go to the doctor, whatever. You have a # of days to not be here and get paid, no details needed
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The problem with personal days is that, since people are continually burning through them for vacation, there generally aren't enough of them to deal with a bad year when you need a lot of medical care. Complicated pregnancy, MVA, etc. Its a better system to have 2-4 weeks of actual sick days, with the clear expectation that you aren't going to need more than 3-4 days in most years.
 
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Perrotfish said:
The problem with personal days is that, since people are continually burning through them for vacation, there generally aren't enough of them to deal with a bad year when you need a lot of medical care. Complicated pregnancy, MVA, etc. Its a better system to have 2-4 weeks of actual sick days, with the clear expectation that you aren't going to need more than 3-4 days in most years.
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Then they don’t get paid. “We gave you days, you used them”
 
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Perrotfish said:
The problem with personal days is that, since people are continually burning through them for vacation, there generally aren't enough of them to deal with a bad year when you need a lot of medical care. Complicated pregnancy, MVA, etc. Its a better system to have 2-4 weeks of actual sick days, with the clear expectation that you aren't going to need more than 3-4 days in most years.
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The problem with this is that some people then feel like this is a benefit they have earned, and they ensure that they call in sick to get their 4 weeks off. Plus then there's no way to just take a day off if needed for personal reasons. There is no perfect system.

I'm reasonablly happy with ours. A limited number of personal days for any use. Anyone with a severe illness who needs more time can use medical short term disability which is fully paid but requires medical documentation.
 
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This weekend Im off to Costa Rica. Then the end of next week im in South East Asia for 2 weeks. So yea putting more attention on myself by using a sick day before vacation is not good. (Side note: We get weekends off in our program). Thanks everyone for your advice.
 
aProgDirector said:
... and then right after that, you'll have a glorious 2 weeks at home on quarantine. Have fun!
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Yeah, I agree with this. As much as you feel the need to relax and travel, not the best idea at this time. While the likelihood is low of contracting the disease, the problem is all the travel restrictions and quarantines that are constantly changing on a daily basis at the moment. The worst thing to happen after the issue with the sick-days is to all of a sudden get stuck in another country or in quarantine.

A lot of companies are already restricting their employees from travel. A health care professional should be more than willing to accept the consequences if they cannot return to duty in a timely manner. Also, if you do get stuck and try to use that as an excuse, there's no excuse for not keeping up with the current news.

Putting my money where my mouth is, my colleagues and I have all cancelled our vacations in the upcoming weeks and month because because of this. We cannot afford (I'm not speak monetarily) not to be able to return to work.
 
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jurassicpark said:
Yeah, I agree with this. As much as you feel the need to relax and travel, not the best idea at this time. While the likelihood is low of contracting the disease, the problem is all the travel restrictions and quarantines that are constantly changing on a daily basis at the moment
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I'm not sure how low the likelihood is when traveling internationally. I'd bet the likelihood of contracting the disease is actually high, though the likelihood of complications/serious illness is low.
 
I understand the seriousness of the disease at this point. However, I am way more at risk of catching the disease at the hospital or clinic that I work at than traveling abroad. I would also think its safe to say that being in Costa Rica would be safer (in terms of catching the virus) than America at this point since the cases are much less. So by traveling, Im actually protecting myself ;)
 
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jurassicpark said:
Yeah, I agree with this. As much as you feel the need to relax and travel, not the best idea at this time. While the likelihood is low of contracting the disease, the problem is all the travel restrictions and quarantines that are constantly changing on a daily basis at the moment. The worst thing to happen after the issue with the sick-days is to all of a sudden get stuck in another country or in quarantine.

A lot of companies are already restricting their employees from travel. A health care professional should be more than willing to accept the consequences if they cannot return to duty in a timely manner. Also, if you do get stuck and try to use that as an excuse, there's no excuse for not keeping up with the current news.

Putting my money where my mouth is, my colleagues and I have all cancelled our vacations in the upcoming weeks and month because because of this. We cannot afford (I'm not speak monetarily) not to be able to return to work.
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I doubt I will get stuck in another country. Look at the Europe ban. That does not apply to people who are citizens or residents of the United states.
 
twospadz said:
I understand the seriousness of the disease at this point. However, I am way more at risk of catching the disease at the hospital or clinic that I work at than traveling abroad. I would also think its safe to say that being in Costa Rica would be safer (in terms of catching the virus) than America at this point since the cases are much less. So by traveling, Im actually protecting myself ;)
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giphy.gif
 
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twospadz said:
I doubt I will get stuck in another country. Look at the Europe ban. That does not apply to people who are citizens or residents of the United states.
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For now. Rules are changing more than once per day. Plus, there could be a quarantine period required even after you get back.
 
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twospadz said:
I doubt I will get stuck in another country. Look at the Europe ban. That does not apply to people who are citizens or residents of the United states.
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As stated, rules are changing daily. You can also be faced with quarantine abroad, at home, and from work/school. Assuming you're a healthy young adult, odds of anything serious happening to you is very small. But administration will not take the risk you will pose a threat to your patient population. I am getting a flood of emails from administration, public health, etc that are pretty much banning everyone with a sniffle from work (a slight exaggeration, but slight) which is going to result in a decimation of the workforce for the hospital.

Once again, I'm imploring you for your general welfare (I'm talking academically mostly).. if you are delayed or quarantined from returning to work and your program is aware that you intentionally went traveling for non-emergent vacation during this, it could seriously jeopardize your already precarious standing with your program.
 
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twospadz said:
However, I am way more at risk of catching the disease at the hospital or clinic that I work at than traveling abroad. I would also think its safe to say that being in Costa Rica would be safer (in terms of catching the virus) than America at this point since the cases are much less. So by traveling, Im actually protecting myself ;)
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... or, you might travel while asymptomatically infected, end up infecting a bunch of people there, spiking their case rate. Plus, if you were to become ill while there you would be unable to travel back to the US (probably) for weeks, at your expense.
 
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twospadz said:
I understand the seriousness of the disease at this point. However, I am way more at risk of catching the disease at the hospital or clinic that I work at than traveling abroad. I would also think its safe to say that being in Costa Rica would be safer (in terms of catching the virus) than America at this point since the cases are much less. So by traveling, Im actually protecting myself ;)
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I doubt any of us care about you ending up in CR. It's the plane ride to get there that's important.
 
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Mass Effect said:
I doubt any of us care about you ending up in CR. It's the plane ride to get there that's important.
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Ok guys. I wont go on my flights and just use the flight credit later. Its not worth the risk. Thanks everyone.
 
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aProgDirector said:
Employers can't place limits on employee personal travel. They can stop reimbursed travel (CME).
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They can, however, strongly discourage it. What vacation is worth ending up sick and being on your hospital's **** list because you can't come to work for 14 + days during a pandemic?
 
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Frankly, I'd plan on needing your sick days for being, well, sick...
 
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