Shadowing question

[futuredentist420]

I applied to dental schools and I got waitlisted at the one school that gave me an interview, so now it is time for me to think of a backup plan. I don't know much about the application process for podiatry school. Would anyone be able to tell me if shadowing a podiatrist is NECESSARY to get into podiatry school? How many hours would be competitive? I am thinking about this route because I am aware of 2 schools (NYCPM and Temple) that will take my DAT scores so I don't have to take the MCAT. Would it also make sense to apply this cycle even though it's pretty late (December)? I was hoping to get into dental school but I don't think I can sit around for another year doing nothing if nothing happens with dentistry. Are there additional podiatry schools that will take the DAT that I'm not aware of?

Thank you.

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[Mental_Managment_97]

Most of the schools do want some sort of DPM shadowing and\or knowledge. You'd want anyway to see what you would be getting into. Des Moines, Samuel Merritt, Temple and Barry do specifically ask if that helps.

Good luck!

 

[futuredentist420]

Most of the schools do want some sort of DPM shadowing and\or knowledge. You'd want anyway to see what you would be getting into. Des Moines, Samuel Merritt, Temple and Barry do specifically ask if that helps.

Good luck!

Would it be a good idea to apply now, and shadow while waiting for an interview? Or should I only apply after I've done my shadowing?

 

[futuredentist420]

I am looking at the AACPMAS application now and it says that I NEED to submit that I've completed or plan to complete the MCAT. But what if I'm only applying to schools that will take the DAT?

 

[Mental_Managment_97]

Would it be a good idea to apply now, and shadow while waiting for an interview? Or should I only apply after I've done my shadowing?

I can't answer that but I can say that I have applied without RECENT shadowing. However I have podiatry related experience but it's on the old side. That said I received interviews at the majority of the schools I applied to. As far as the MCAT\DAT question, the AACPMAS allows you to input DAT on that same screen so perhaps it will allow your applications to be verified for those two schools without the MCAT information it's asking for? Verification requires they get your transcript(s) of course.

Curious, if you don't mind, why are you considering DPM and not MD\DO? As a strong dental applicant you are probably a decent candidate for medical school. Is it the MCAT? I mean no disrespect asking, I'm genuinely curious is all. Also, don't quote me on this but I think the Lake Erie school has a non-MCAT option as well. Might be worth looking into.

 

[futuredentist420]

Yeah I already took the DAT and I'm really not trying to take the MCAT. Plus my GPAs are on the low end (3.3, sGPA is 3.09). But my DAT was good (24).

 

[Mental_Managment_97]

Yeah I already took the DAT and I'm really not trying to take the MCAT. Plus my GPAs are on the low end (3.3, sGPA is 3.09). But my DAT was good (24).

I hear you, totally get it. That DAT isn't good, it's great. I would start researching podiatry on your own while you look for shadow opportunities. Nothing is perfect but if you go in with a good attitude there is a lot to get excited about.

If it's not for you in the end there is always post-bac, grad school, law school haha

 

[futuredentist420]

I can't answer that but I can say that I have applied without RECENT shadowing. However I have podiatry related experience but it's on the old side. That said I received interviews at the majority of the schools I applied to. As far as the MCAT\DAT question, the AACPMAS allows you to input DAT on that same screen so perhaps it will allow your applications to be verified for those two schools without the MCAT information it's asking for? Verification requires they get your transcript(s) of course.

Curious, if you don't mind, why are you considering DPM and not MD\DO? As a strong dental applicant you are probably a decent candidate for medical school. Is it the MCAT? I mean no disrespect asking, I'm genuinely curious is all. Also, don't quote me on this but I think the Lake Erie school has a non-MCAT option as well. Might be worth looking into.

I think I need to submit at least 3 LORs, and most schools will need the 3rd to come from a podiatrist that I've shadowed. How were you able to skip that requirement? Or did you ask for a LOR from the podiatrist that you shadowed long ago?

 

[Mental_Managment_97]

No, the person I worked with for a few months in the military was a good doctor but a massive turd. I wouldn't want him putting in a word for me and I doubt he'd remember me anyway. I had only mentioned in my personal statement\apps that I had experience and I also made a point to draw attention to my own research into the field.

The way it worked, in my case, was that I submitted and paid for the applications through AACPMAS and once verified the schools that have asked me to interview have had me set up accounts with their schools personally. It was at this point I submitted what LoRs I had and so at this point it's not been a problem. I will say this in full disclosure, I have decent academic metrics and strong letters outside of a DPM including a former Vice President, other docs(DO, DC), deans etc so perhaps that swayed them...perhaps they don't care at this point in the process.. I'm 99.9% certain there wasn't even a section on AACPMAS asking for letters so you can probably get your foot in the door at this point to get the ball rolling

I have been having trouble getting a DPM to shadow but I believe my situation to be unique(location, COVID, time of year, other factors). I anticipate the question being asked though in the interviews.


Also, if it's helpful, I know some optometry programs take the DAT as well. You have to be strong in physics\calculus but it never hurts to look around at all options.

 

[Adam Smasher]

OP, You should read the attendings forum a bit and check back with us.

 

[Feli]

Would it be a good idea to apply now, and shadow while waiting for an interview? Or should I only apply after I've done my shadowing?

It is generally a good idea to do research on job options, duties, market, ROI... and, you know: see if you'd like something before committing $400k plus interest and 7+ years?

So yeah, shadowing a bit and reading a bit helps there. Try it.

Or just go down the list on SDN forum types in order from MD to dent to podiatry to pharma or optometry or chiro or whatever... and apply to each of the school types. Either way.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

I applied to dental schools and I got waitlisted at the one school that gave me an interview, so now it is time for me to think of a backup plan. I don't know much about the application process for podiatry school. Would anyone be able to tell me if shadowing a podiatrist is NECESSARY to get into podiatry school? How many hours would be competitive? I am thinking about this route because I am aware of 2 schools (NYCPM and Temple) that will take my DAT scores so I don't have to take the MCAT. Would it also make sense to apply this cycle even though it's pretty late (December)? I was hoping to get into dental school but I don't think I can sit around for another year doing nothing if nothing happens with dentistry. Are there additional podiatry schools that will take the DAT that I'm not aware of?

Thank you.

I am sure you know this, but do not jump into podiatry as plan B. Have you tried all the options of getting into a dental school? Like an SMP?
Waiting on for another cycle or two isn't fun, but if you always wanted to a DDS, then I believe you should still try.

To answer your questions: shadowing 2-3 DPMs in different settings to get various exposure to the field is a good start. I believe 15+ hours is enough, along with 2-3 LORs (2 sci profs, 1 DPM). NYCPM has a Jan start also.

Think it all over and don't rush into it just to start 'something'. Good luck!

 

[Weirdy]

Going to reiterate what Dexter mentioned.
You will not have a problem finding a podiatry program to accept you even this late in the process. It is rolling admissions.
Some have gotten in the same summer as the school year starting.

Make sure you shadow. You are locked into foot and ankle the day you start your first day of school.

 

[MoostashPod]

I agree with Dexter admin above. Podiatry is not easy; it's not easy through school, not easy throughout the career (ROI, jobs, saturation, etc). Read up some more before jumping in, but definitely do the shadowing and do a bunch. Podiatry as a fallback or backup plan is a huge mistake, especially going in without serious thoughts and insights into the profession. Don't take it lightly, tread slowly. I know a person who was in a top dental school, flunked out, decided on podiatry, flunked out. Not sure where this person ended up, but I'm guessing PA school.

I'd reapply again to dental school if that's your passion and your initial aim. It's not a bad thing to take time off and work towards what you want, than jumping into something that you may regret doing for the rest of your life. It's your call, your life decisions.

 

[aiikookie]

This post brings back memories. I had applied to 20+ dental schools last year and rejected by all due to a terrible DAT score. AZCPM emailed me to interview for their podiatry program, back then I had no idea what podiatry was. I researched and googled and it was very interesting so I did the interview and got accepted. I went ahead and applied for another podiatry school as it was cheaper, gave generous scholarships and closer to home and got into that school with a 30k entrance scholarship. I just now finished my first semester at this school and i love it so far, so if you want any perspective from a fellow predent to podiatry you can DM me. In regards to shadowing, AZCPM had told me that they prefer I shadow for at least 1 day before I actually accept my acceptance letter from them. They suggested I see what podiatry is like before I make my decision as they'd want me to be 100% all in and not just as a "backup plan" and didnt want me to waste years and money on a field that I wouldn't enjoy.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

Yeah I already took the DAT and I'm really not trying to take the MCAT. Plus my GPAs are on the low end (3.3, sGPA is 3.09). But my DAT was good (24).

a 24 on the DAT is really good. Not sure how long it lasts and if you can apply next cycle but consider doing a postbac and then reapplying to dental?


You're already accepted to podiatry school. They're desperate for admissions.

 

[futuredentist420]

a 24 on the DAT is really good. Not sure how long it lasts and if you can apply next cycle but consider doing a postbac and then reapplying to dental?


You're already accepted to podiatry school. They're desperate for admissions.

Why do you suggest dentistry instead of podiatry? Do dentists make that much more money?

 

[aiikookie]

as far as I know there are no such things as scholarships in dental school and you graduate with upto 600K of debt from most institutions. In podiatry you get entrance scholarships and very generous renewable scholarships if you maintain a good GPA. You can graduate with around 150K (300k if no scholarships) of debt if you maintain the gpa goal to get scholarships. The average starting salary for pods and dentists starts around the same. Few get 200k+ starting salaries in dentistry and the same for podiatry. The ceiling for money making however is much bigger for dentistry as far as I've experienced as i've shadowed both pods and dentists. I'd say if you want longterm high salary go with dentistry, if you dont want to start off your career paying $7000+ a month for student loans, go with podiatry.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

Why do you suggest dentistry instead of podiatry? Do dentists make that much more money?

The ceiling and floor for dentistry is much higher than pod. Not to mention specialization where you can make more in dentistry.

I’m really lucky with the debt aspect. I’m at 80k thanks to some really lucky financial situations and a spouse who works. Average pod school debt hearing from friends and just from other posts is gonna be close to 200-250k especially with the loan interest returning.

Sure dental school is more expensive but you’ll be able to pay it off. I have plenty of friends who are in 300k in debt who aren’t able to find jobs. And if you find a job they’re in the middle of nowhere. Dentists can at least control where they live and have people who want to see them.

as far as I know there are no such things as scholarships in dental school and you graduate with upto 600K of debt from most institutions. In podiatry you get entrance scholarships and very generous renewable scholarships if you maintain a good GPA. You can graduate with around 150K (300k if no scholarships) of debt if you maintain the gpa goal to get scholarships. The average starting salary for pods and dentists starts around the same. Few get 200k+ starting salaries in dentistry and the same for podiatry. The ceiling for money making however is much bigger for dentistry as far as I've experienced as i've shadowed both pods and dentists. I'd say if you want longterm high salary go with dentistry, if you dont want to start off your career paying $7000+ a month for student loans, go with podiatry.

This person is in their first semester of pod school and I wouldn’t trust their judgement. Look at the attending forum and see the job offers coming out. It’s abysmal. Many job offers under 90k. I was this way too, overly optimistic about podiatry. Reality is that podiatry is very saturated and with the addition of two new schools you’ll either see a residency shortage or watered down training that will make you ill prepared for practice. Dentistry you can literally start practice after 3 years and make money.


I like podiatry. It’s a good career if you can minimize your debt and you’re okay with being the red headed stepchild of medicine. ROI isn’t very good.

 

[Feli]

...if you dont want to start off your career paying $7000+ a month for student loans, go with podiatry.

The loan payment on $300k-400k podiatry loans will be $3k-4k monthly or more to pay standard repayment. You need to pay more to put any real dent in the principal.... run the calcs.

$35k or more /yr tuition (assumes at least some scholarships,) +
$35k living /yr (less early, more clerkships) +
interest during school on some loan groups and probably all in residency

...What a lot of DPMs do is try the IBR minimum pays $2k/mo or whatever if they have low income and hope for 20-25 year forgiveness. That works unless you get a higher paying job or the govt forgiveness rules change.

Podiatry is definitely not cheap.
It's all a matter of ROI and job quality for any of them. That's a personal decision.

 

[futuredentist420]

The ceiling and floor for dentistry is much higher than pod. Not to mention specialization where you can make more in dentistry.

I’m really lucky with the debt aspect. I’m at 80k thanks to some really lucky financial situations and a spouse who works. Average pod school debt hearing from friends and just from other posts is gonna be close to 200-250k especially with the loan interest returning.

Sure dental school is more expensive but you’ll be able to pay it off. I have plenty of friends who are in 300k in debt who aren’t able to find jobs. And if you find a job they’re in the middle of nowhere. Dentists can at least control where they live and have people who want to see them.

This person is in their first semester of pod school and I wouldn’t trust their judgement. Look at the attending forum and see the job offers coming out. It’s abysmal. Many job offers under 90k. I was this way too, overly optimistic about podiatry. Reality is that podiatry is very saturated and with the addition of two new schools you’ll either see a residency shortage or watered down training that will make you ill prepared for practice. Dentistry you can literally start practice after 3 years and make money.


I like podiatry. It’s a good career if you can minimize your debt and you’re okay with being the red headed stepchild of medicine. ROI isn’t very good.

Would you be able to go into more detail on how the ceiling is higher than for podiatry? I am under the impression that a podiatrist who is done with residency will make around the same as a dentist who is fresh out of dental school (but not having his/her own practice). I would like to hear what you say because I am not too well informed on this subject.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

Would you be able to go into more detail on how the ceiling is higher than for podiatry? I am under the impression that a podiatrist who is done with residency will make around the same as a dentist who is fresh out of dental school (but not having his/her own practice). I would like to hear what you say because I am not too well informed on this subject.

you can specialize in dentistry. You don’t just have to be a GP. That can maximize how much you make.

Podiatry is already specialized. And we “compete” with foot and ankle ortho for cases.

Go to the attending forum and look at the job offers. Look at LinkedIn. Any job site. You’ll see minimal jobs with mostly mediocre salary… and unless a general dentist is making 90k with crappy Bennie’s than there still doing better than a newly graduated pod.

 

[futuredentist420]

you can specialize in dentistry. You don’t just have to be a GP. That can maximize how much you make.

Podiatry is already specialized. And we “compete” with foot and ankle ortho for cases.

Go to the attending forum and look at the job offers. Look at LinkedIn. Any job site. You’ll see minimal jobs with mostly mediocre salary… and unless a general dentist is making 90k with crappy Bennie’s than there still doing better than a newly graduated pod.

What can I expect to make getting out of residency? 90k doesn't seem very enticing for 4 years of school + debt + residency...

 

[iridocyclitiss]

What can I expect to make getting out of residency? 90k doesn't seem very enticing for 4 years of school + debt + residency...

anywhere from 90k to upper 200.... but most of the offers are closer to 100-120. good jobs are out there, but are not easy to find and very competitive.

 

[Mental_Managment_97]

While money is a factor, make sure you are considering others as well. Compatibility, personal fulfillment, service to others, etc.

Nobody, in any field, can tell you what their profession(or the world) will look in 7 years with concrete accuracy.


Dental was your first choice for a reason.....

 

[heybrother]

On a day by day basis dentists do higher reimbursing procedures. Cleanings are done by employees. Its not even close - dentistry is a completely superior business model.