Seriously Questioning My Choice of Specialty

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Thanks for the reply. Hospital medicine comes with enormous, heaping mounds of bullish*t and that is why I want to stay away from it if I can too. I never really bought into the 7 on 7 off schedule as any kind of great bargain either. I really don't want to devote an extra second to training more than I have to. Even the extra year in if I switch to EM makes be cringe but I am trying to think long-term. I am going to be in my late 30s by the time I graduate. I have a young family. I feel like I am economically pigeonholed into hospital medicine (if I stay in IM) because it pays so much more than outpatient (even outpatient subspecialties.) Even if I wanted to subspecialize, I feel I cannot sacrifice the extra 2-3 years for less or the same pay as PCP internal medicine. Let's face it cards, GI, pulm/crit are not exactly there for the taking. So when people tell me "why not do GI or pull/crit" a) I am really not that enthusiastic about those fields and b)they are a reach considering I am a DO with no research training at a small community program. It seems if this ER thing doesn't work out then hospital medicine is my only choice at least for the first several years out of training.
A lot of things in medicine have to do with the setting that one works. For instance, I work 7 on/off (7a-5-30pm) and has no vacation and no CME days. One of my juniors in residency work 7 on/off and usually leave work between 2-3pm and has 3 wks vacation and 1 week CME. Basically, he can be off 3 wks in row every 3 months if he wants to.

I might be bias. But I am not sure EM is better than hospital medicine in term of dealing w/ BS.

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Well that is certainly positive to hear. Can you say where they are getting these jobs?
I have a friend who’s a PCP in NJ. Hospital employed. Base 275k + wRVU bonus plus all the usual benefits. 4 days a week. If money is your objective there is potential to make more in private practice or in less desirable locations. My wife’s does endocrine and was offered similar compensation in a hospital employed setting, she chose “fakeademia” instead though.
 
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Thanks for the reply. Hospital medicine comes with enormous, heaping mounds of bullish*t and that is why I want to stay away from it if I can too. I never really bought into the 7 on 7 off schedule as any kind of great bargain either. I really don't want to devote an extra second to training more than I have to. Even the extra year in if I switch to EM makes be cringe but I am trying to think long-term. I am going to be in my late 30s by the time I graduate. I have a young family. I feel like I am economically pigeonholed into hospital medicine (if I stay in IM) because it pays so much more than outpatient (even outpatient subspecialties.) Even if I wanted to subspecialize, I feel I cannot sacrifice the extra 2-3 years for less or the same pay as PCP internal medicine. Let's face it cards, GI, pulm/crit are not exactly there for the taking. So when people tell me "why not do GI or pull/crit" a) I am really not that enthusiastic about those fields and b)they are a reach considering I am a DO with no research training at a small community program. It seems if this ER thing doesn't work out then hospital medicine is my only choice at least for the first several years out of training.
EM has just as much, if not more, BS to deal with than hospitalist given the frontline nature of EM. EM shifts also tend to be faster paced and higher stress than hospitalist shifts. In the past EM did make quite a bit more per hour than HM (~$200-220/hr for EM vs ~$140-160 in many day shift hospitalists for full time), but with EM being saturated nowadays ( primarily due to rapid expansion of residency spots and and increased use of midlevels to staff ERs) the pay is expected to take a big hit for new grads in most locations (except maybe the most rural places that still have difficulty recruiting). And EM has much more limited options down the line for clinical work. As other has have mentioned, if hospitalist doesn't work out you want to avoid it altogether outpatient IM PCP is a good place to work, and pay per how is now much more similar to hospitalist In the recent past hospitalist did on average pay a bit more per hour than PCP but with hospitalist jobs becoming a bit more saturated lately (though still not nearly as saturated as EM) pay has leveled out with IM.

IM has much more fellowship options than EM. And yes the ones that pay more than doing PCP or hospitalist (like cardiology, G, heme/onc) are competitive and not easily accessible to most IM grads.

Urgent care work is also a possibility after IM or EM training, though pay tends to be lower if you're an employee and not the owner of the urgent care. There's a big push to staff most urgent cares with midlevels and hence that drives down pay for physicians.
 
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There aren't many options for inpatient "hospitalist" route for rheum, since only large academic institutions have enough "weird" cases for rheumatology consults. Furthermore, academic faculty usually cover their own inpatient consult services. But academia or "fakedemia" is a whole other can of worms.

I can go back to hospitalist, and have floated the idea. So far, practicing rheum in a semi-rural setting has been a good compromise - far less psychosomatic complaints and generally friendlier people. Radiology, on the other hand, does not have such issues. They can live in a major metro, while having none of the customer service headaches us clinicians have. They also make a lot more than non-procedural, so it's win win win.
Probably part of why radiology has gotten very competitive to match into. For the 2022 year Match rate for USMDs was only 83%, which is the lowest rate in recent years and almost as low as derm. It may also have just been driven by more med students staying away from specialties that currently have a poor job market like EM or rad onc. Radiology seemed to a good choice during the pandemic to get away from the frontlines (in many cases just do telerads from home). Pay per hour is also higher than most non-procedural specialties (and comparable to many surgical specialties), it's not easily replaced by midlevels, and there's predictable shift work.

Of course radiology has its own set of issues as well. Radiology job market has had it's share of fluctuations over the years and likely will continue to down the line. While it's not easy to replace with midlevels, AI can significantly decrease the number of radiologists on the market. It also involves 6 years of training after med school as a fellowship is almost always required. Liability is also high given the large volumes of images they are expected to read nowadays at a fast rate (to make the RVUs needed for a typical radiologist salary), all while having very little room for error. And unless you work at a place that has dedicated night time radiologists, radiologists will also have there share of night shifts as well. And like any shift-based service like EM, hospitalist, or critical care, they are easier to replace than outpatient panel-based specialties.
 
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A lot of things in medicine have to do with the setting that one works. For instance, I work 7 on/off (7a-5-30pm) and has no vacation and no CME days. One of my juniors in residency work 7 on/off and usually leave work between 2-3pm and has 3 wks vacation and 1 week CME. Basically, he can be off 3 wks in row every 3 months if he wants to.

I might be bias. But I am not sure EM is better than hospital medicine in term of dealing w/ BS.

You just need the right personality for it tbh. I think being a hospitalist can be a good field for a lot of medicine graduates.

That being said there was a certain level of moral injury that occurs from hospitalist work. Whether it's the deaths, the frequent fliers, or the hand offs from colleges on their 7th day being clearly falling apart and wrong it wasn't for me.

I have a friend who’s a PCP in NJ. Hospital employed. Base 275k + wRVU bonus plus all the usual benefits. 4 days a week. If money is your objective there is potential to make more in private practice or in less desirable locations. My wife’s does endocrine and was offered similar compensation in a hospital employed setting, she chose “fakeademia” instead though.

I always have to ask. Just how much money is enough money. And where does your life style actually begin?

Like personally I think the most terrifying thing I can think of is making my job my entire life. Limiting the parts of medicine I actually enjoy i.e patient interactions, and boiling everything down to how I can see as many pts as possible.
 
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I always have to ask. Just how much money is enough money. And where does your life style actually begin?

Like personally I think the most terrifying thing I can think of is making my job my entire life. Limiting the parts of medicine I actually enjoy i.e patient interactions, and boiling everything down to how I can see as many pts as possible.
Enough money to pay back student loans, buy a decent house in a good school district (if one has kids), enjoy normal non extravagant vacations several times a year.

Unfortunately, it’s more money than one thinks to accomplish the above in this day and age. If one’s spouse is a high earner then it certainly helps. Most of the married faculty at fakedemic institutions have high earner spouses.
 
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You should have minimal trouble making 250k+ anywhere in the country as a PCP. Rural/midwest/southeast will give the opportunity for even more. Even in big cities, RVUs should get you close to 300 in many/most places.

Where I am in Philly/NYC outpatient seems to be routinely making more than hospitalists.
 
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A lot of EM people I speak to don't seem to buy into the cataclysmic job projections. The even say the jobs report assumptions were skewed and that market saturation will only occur in big cities. Is this hopeful (i.e., false) optimism?
 
Thanks for the reply. Hospital medicine comes with enormous, heaping mounds of bullish*t and that is why I want to stay away from it if I can too. I never really bought into the 7 on 7 off schedule as any kind of great bargain either. I really don't want to devote an extra second to training more than I have to. Even the extra year in if I switch to EM makes be cringe but I am trying to think long-term. I am going to be in my late 30s by the time I graduate. I have a young family. I feel like I am economically pigeonholed into hospital medicine (if I stay in IM) because it pays so much more than outpatient (even outpatient subspecialties.) Even if I wanted to subspecialize, I feel I cannot sacrifice the extra 2-3 years for less or the same pay as PCP internal medicine. Let's face it cards, GI, pulm/crit are not exactly there for the taking. So when people tell me "why not do GI or pull/crit" a) I am really not that enthusiastic about those fields and b)they are a reach considering I am a DO with no research training at a small community program. It seems if this ER thing doesn't work out then hospital medicine is my only choice at least for the first several years out of training.
I think your understanding of the outpatient subspecialties is inaccurate.

It’s certainly quite possible to pull $400k as an OP only rheumatologist working 4-4.5 days a week. I have heard endo folks saying that they can pull off at least $350k. Personally I detest inpatient medicine almost as much as you and thus I only really considered specialties that let you be largely, if not entirely, outpatient. Didn’t want to be a PCP either unless I went DPC, which sounded interesting but also was its own can of worms with regards to needing capital to start a business etc. Endo, rheum, etc are attainable from community IM programs too.

I agree that more training sucks, but for me it was an investment in a life that I really wanted to have.
 
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A lot of EM people I speak to don't seem to buy into the cataclysmic job projections. The even say the jobs report assumptions were skewed and that market saturation will only occur in big cities. Is this hopeful (i.e., false) optimism?
Big cities will likely have the most saturation, but even smaller cities can get saturated as well. Most likely any place besides the most rural parts of the country where most physicians would not want to live and work. New grads may be able to find jobs in more desirable locations, but they will likely come with lowball offers compared to patient volumes or RVUs they are producing.

The 2 main forces driving saturation in EM are rapid expansion of residency spots, and increased use of mildevels to staff EDs. Neither will of these factors will be easy to stop in the near future. For example, some have proposed that ACGME not allow opening of new EM residency programs to help balance the supply/demand. The problem is ACGME is required to approve new programs meet their minimum accreditation standards that current programs are held to (otherwise they could face legal issues). The ACGME, however, could raise accreditation standards for ALL EM programs so that less would qualify.

And as for increased use of midlevels, since most of EM staffing tends hospital of CMG employed (and not so much physician owned practices), employment is controlled by them and they have found out the significant cost savings from using midlevels (at least in the short run).
 
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A lot of EM people I speak to don't seem to buy into the cataclysmic job projections. The even say the jobs report assumptions were skewed and that market saturation will only occur in big cities. Is this hopeful (i.e., false) optimism?
They opened up so many EM residencies recently that I think the market is likely to be flooded with EM doctors soon. I remember when I was matching, EM was one of the hip/trendy specialties and thus tons and tons of new residencies were opened to accommodate this. Unfortunately, the number of docs trained in a specialty often doesn’t have much relationship to the number needed in the market (just ask renal docs).

Plus, EM just…sucks in a lot of ways. It’s shift work, and nobody gets only the day shifts all the time. You’re tied to a hospital system, with all the associated BS there. I’m really not seeing what the big positive is here.
 
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Our EM PGY3s aren’t having any trouble finding jobs. Then again, I’m in IM and I don’t have a grasp of what the future holds with that ACEP projection

Right now though, the EM seniors from my program are signing contracts that honestly puts hospitalist salaries to shame
 
Our EM PGY3s aren’t having any trouble finding jobs. Then again, I’m in IM and I don’t have a grasp of what the future holds with that ACEP projection

Right now though, the EM seniors from my program are signing contracts that honestly puts hospitalist salaries to shame
Job market tends to be very geographically specific. And those from more reputable EM programs will probably be a bit less affected by job market. The ACEP projects about 8000 surplus EM physicians by 2030, so if that pans out, the job market may not quite as bad yet, and the worst is yet to come.

EM has historically paid higher per hour than hospitalist (especially the day shifts). And they probably should get more per hour considering they usually make more RVUs per hour, and their work tends to be at a higher intensity, and have higher malpractice liability than a typical daytime hospitalist shift. In a typical 12 EM shift, it's typical to see 25-30 NEW patients and have to dispo all of them. Compare that with a typical 12 hr daytime rounding hospitalist shift, where one may see 18-22 follow-ups of already admitted patients and discharge only a few of them, and at may places it doesn't take the full 12 hrs and they can usually finish and go home a bit early. However, with EM being more saturated I suspect the general trend is that hourly pay is going decline until it's more similar to hospitalist pay.
 
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Thanks for the reply. Hospital medicine comes with enormous, heaping mounds of bullish*t and that is why I want to stay away from it if I can too. I never really bought into the 7 on 7 off schedule as any kind of great bargain either. I really don't want to devote an extra second to training more than I have to. Even the extra year in if I switch to EM makes be cringe but I am trying to think long-term. I am going to be in my late 30s by the time I graduate. I have a young family. I feel like I am economically pigeonholed into hospital medicine (if I stay in IM) because it pays so much more than outpatient (even outpatient subspecialties.) Even if I wanted to subspecialize, I feel I cannot sacrifice the extra 2-3 years for less or the same pay as PCP internal medicine. Let's face it cards, GI, pulm/crit are not exactly there for the taking. So when people tell me "why not do GI or pull/crit" a) I am really not that enthusiastic about those fields and b)they are a reach considering I am a DO with no research training at a small community program. It seems if this ER thing doesn't work out then hospital medicine is my only choice at least for the first several years out of training.
Being that you mention you are a DO at a small community program with no research, I agree that matching into an IM subspecialty will be an uphill battle and possibly just out of the question for some fields. If you take that off the table and are just comparing IM vs EM, I still think sticking with IM is the better choice.

For one thing, there isn't any PCP/outpatient option for EM. As many have said, the pay for a busy PCP is not that different than an EM doc and the ceiling on PCP work is higher if you are business savvy. Private equity is coming hard for PCPs but they pretty much own most of EM already. You can always choose outpatient work, albeit you probably forget alot of what it takes to be a PCP if you've been a hospitalist for a few years...but you can relearn it.

Hospitalist jobs and EM jobs vary in work flow and hour-to-hour flexibility. My wife's previous jobs was crazy busy and she was essentially unreachable while in the ED. Hospitalists generally have more flexibility and some have jobs where they can round and go. EM does have the luxury of random weekdays off and the ability to trade shifts around with colleagues if certain days off are needed. This is kind of a toss up and very much dependent on the job. I remember being an IM resident and thinking my wife had the better gig, even kind of thought about switching to EM. Very happy I chose to specialize instead. I wouldn't want to be a PCP, hospitalist, or EM doc -- not even sure which I would choose if those were my options. The idea of an extra year of training would be enough to keep me in IM. On a side note, it reminded me of people in med school who chose EM/IM combined residency. What a nightmare choice. I wonder what those people ended up doing career wise. With that said, my wife now has a job in the suburb area of a desirable metro where she works for a large hospital system and has a pretty good gig. She almost always finishes her notes at work and they have dedicated nocturnists in the ED so she has only worked one true overnight shift in the last 8 months. Her shifts now are some sort of day shift (6a-2p, 8a-5p, 2p-10p, etc.) and the latest she is ever home is probably 11p. Work flow is reasonable and she has decent support staff. I do echo what's been said above regarding the job market. No one has a crystal ball and the sky is always falling but it does look pretty grim for EM. They have rapidly expanded EM residencies and many are at community hospitals without true faculty. They are actually launching one at my wife's hospital and the doctors aren't asking for it so there isn't a ton of buy-in. Ie you don't have a bunch of attendings interested in medical education, rather you have a bunch of attendings who are employees being told they will soon have residents. I'm sure this reflects on training since I imagine many of these attendings are just going to want to get through the work day and probably aren't super keen on getting behind on their workflow so they can take a bunch of time to walk you through procedures and all that. Also, traditional "good" EM programs (like most other training programs) are at large academic centers tied to county hospitals that see super sick patients with untreated pathology. You are less likely to see that level of pathology at a suburban community hospital even if it is a level 1 trauma. Also, without all the other residents and fellows typically present at a large teaching center, the educational experience likely isn't the same. Now, I'm sure all the same can be said for these random community hospital IM programs as well.

Good luck and wish you the best with whatever the outcome. I can empathize with being an IM intern and thinking I totally screwed up and that there had to be a better choice. Definitely know people who left IM, either during residency or after completing the IM residency, for PM&R, anesth, rads, EM, gen surg, and even derm. The grass is always greener and that doesn't stop. I love my field and job and I still sometimes find myself envious of my buddies with little to no college education who are making good money in sales, real estate, and business.
 
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I have decided to stay in internal medicine. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
 
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Good call.

If you spend some time in the EM forum you might find that the grass is not greener but it actually only appears to be a lighter shade of green because it is actually starting to catch on fire.
 
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I never tell patients they need to lose weight. What’s the point? They clearly won’t do it and there’s an unreasonably high probability you will get terrible patient satisfaction scores if not outright complaints.
Incentives matter… whodathought?
I tell pts everyday that they need to lose weight…I tell them I tell everyone that even a 10% weight will help…but I’m endocrine, so they aren’t as offended.
 
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There aren't many options for inpatient "hospitalist" route for rheum, since only large academic institutions have enough "weird" cases for rheumatology consults. Furthermore, academic faculty usually cover their own inpatient consult services. But academia or "fakedemia" is a whole other can of worms.

I can go back to hospitalist, and have floated the idea. So far, practicing rheum in a semi-rural setting has been a good compromise - far less psychosomatic complaints and generally friendlier people. Radiology, on the other hand, does not have such issues. They can live in a major metro, while having none of the customer service headaches us clinicians have. They also make a lot more than non-procedural, so it's win win win.
unless you do breast imaging.
 
Probably part of why radiology has gotten very competitive to match into. For the 2022 year Match rate for USMDs was only 83%, which is the lowest rate in recent years and almost as low as derm. It may also have just been driven by more med students staying away from specialties that currently have a poor job market like EM or rad onc. Radiology seemed to a good choice during the pandemic to get away from the frontlines (in many cases just do telerads from home). Pay per hour is also higher than most non-procedural specialties (and comparable to many surgical specialties), it's not easily replaced by midlevels, and there's predictable shift work.

Of course radiology has its own set of issues as well. Radiology job market has had it's share of fluctuations over the years and likely will continue to down the line. While it's not easy to replace with midlevels, AI can significantly decrease the number of radiologists on the market. It also involves 6 years of training after med school as a fellowship is almost always required. Liability is also high given the large volumes of images they are expected to read nowadays at a fast rate (to make the RVUs needed for a typical radiologist salary), all while having very little room for error. And unless you work at a place that has dedicated night time radiologists, radiologists will also have there share of night shifts as well. And like any shift-based service like EM, hospitalist, or critical care, they are easier to replace than outpatient panel-based specialties.
The job market is great now. Agreed about liability. You can write your own schedule in rad and work from home 100%. AI just helps us find lung nodules and breast calcifications.
 
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